Good afternoon!
I just wanted to add my 2¢ into this. The atheist members of this discussion easily win almost all of these discussions because they correctly point out that there is no scientific way to prove the existence of a god. And my hat is off to them; they are one hundred percent correct in their assertions. The problem with many of the arguments put forth by the religionists is that they try to meet these statements head on… they try to use material and secular arguments to turn back the logical deductions of the materialists. (Sorry, I just don’t like using the word atheist, I prefer materialist because it captures a much greater segment of the population). And the failure of these arguments is pretty spectacular.
The way I see it, science and religion are two distinct things. Science is the measurement of the material, while religion, true religion, is the evaluation of the spiritual. Science deals with quantities, physical realities, while religion deals with qualities, more specifically the quality of values. There can really be no real disagreement between science and true religion. They are the two different pieces of the puzzle of continued human cultural and social evolution. Physical evolution of the species of humankind is proceeding somewhat apart from the social and cultural evolution of society. But progressive social and cultural evolution owe their direct lineage to the furtherance of BOTH religious and scientific advancement.
The materialists of this forum do all of mankind a great service with their attacks upon the entrenched superstitions and gross errors of the evolutionary religions of fear. Indeed, one of the goals of science should be to drive out the lingering superstitions which continue to curse and pollute the religious beliefs of even this relatively civilized society. But they go to far when they positively assert that there absolutely is no god. One can not prove the non-existence of god anymore than one can prove the existence of god. And any person who says that they can prove that god either does or does not exist is either a fool (thinking to prove god does not exist) or is missing the real crux of the religious experience. Because religion, true religion, is the relationship of the individual with that ideal which he designates god. And the ideal of God is always the highest concept of goodness, which the individual in question can conceive. And the truth of god is infinitely greater than even the highest concept of the most advanced of men.
This is why it is incorrect for the materialist to go on and on about the words found in “scripture” concerning the wrath of god, the sacrifices required by god or the punishments done by god. For these words were written at a time when the highest concept of god was still that of a wrathful and vengeful deity, a deity not so far removed from the limited minds of his followers. Do not make the mistake of confusing the ideals of primitive men with the truth of the living god! God, if he exists, and I say he does, is far greater than the limited comprehension of even the best of men, and is infinitely greater than the backward views of the ancients, or even the modern fundamentalist.
So, you ask, what “proof” do I offer? I can offer no material proof. I need not offer material proof. There can be no material proof of a supermaterial thing. Instead I offer you the concept of values. There are no values in nature. Nature does not respect the concept of good or evil. Mechanistic machines, inhabiting a mechanistic and non spiritual universe could never hunger for truth, adore beauty of crave goodness. Because truth, beauty and goodness are not material values. They are supermaterial. Just as every mechanist here at this forum craves goodness, so are you supermaterial, and hence, spiritual. And if you are supermaterial, and hence spiritual, then from where came the original spirit? I say it came from god, and that a fragment of this same god indwells every one of us, even the mind of the materialist, even the confused mind of the fundamentalist. But that is only what I say. You are free to make your own interpretations of life.
Al