Hi Contendah,
You tell me, "Mr. Gray--you posted this:
Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away. . ."
Paul is not speaking of believers who have fallen away. He is speaking of people like I was most of my life -- almost there, but never quite willing to go all the way.
For you to be correct and consistent on this matter, you will have to concede that a person can be made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" and yet not be a "believer", i.e. saved person. That is not an easy case to argue. How say you?"
What does it mean -- "to partake of the Holy Spirit"? You are assuming that the writer of Hebrews meant that a person was indwelled with the Holy Spirit and had became a born-again Christian. But, that is not necessarily true. I believe that the writer of Hebrews (which very likely was Paul) was addressing Jews who had heard the Gospel, who had been caught up in the excitement of the moment -- but, had not taken the final steps to become a true believer. In other words, they partook of the movement of the Holy Spirit -- but, then stopped short of becoming believers.
In their Crusades, both Billy Graham and Greg Laurie have never called those who came forward at the invitation -- believers or converts. No, they see them as "inquirers" -- as those who have tasted, or partaken, of the Holy Spirit that evening -- but, still had further to go to become Christian believers.
Both Graham and Laurie realize that folks at the Crusades get caught up in the excitement of the moment and go forward, or some go forward because a friend went forward. Yes, the Holy Spirit was working in them -- they went forward to become believers -- but, the next day, the next week, when the world began to tug at them -- they went back to the world.
In the same way, the writer of Hebrews saw the Jews getting caught up in the excitement of the moment; but, then, later falling back into Judaism.
At the Crusades, when people come forward, there are counselors there to pray with them -- and to put them in contact with a local Christian fellowship. Billy Graham tells us that when the person who goes forward has been involved in a local fellowship for a couple of years, been involved in their Bible studies, Sunday Schools, i.e., has begun to grow and mature in the Word -- then, they reclassify them from "inquirers" to "converts" or Christian believers.
This, to me, was the intent of the writer of Hebrews.
By the way, you come on the Religion Forum and seem to be standing with one foot on both sides of the chasm. Are you a Christian believer who is here to defend the faith? Or, are you a non-believer who is here to attempt, through slight of hand (or keyboard) to disprove the Christian faith?
It is good to be honest up front -- so that we have a level playing field. In which camp do you reside?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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Both my feet are firmly planted of the solid ground of TRUTH, Bill--truth as revealed in scripture.
It is you, I fear, who are straddling a chasm.
You contend that the Jews to whom Paul wrote had not actually become believers, that they had merely gotten caught up in the excitement of the moment. The text strongly suggests otherwise.
Not only are these persons said to have been "made partakers of the Holy Ghost," they also are said to have been "enlightened" to have "tasted of the heavenly gift," and to "have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the wqrld to come." All of that varied experience just does not seem equivalent to just getting "caught up in the excitement of the moment."
The text also (verse 6) says THIS about these particular persons:
"6 ['For it is impossible' (from verse4)] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
From this, it is evident that these persons had at some previous time been in a state of repentance; otherwise the description ("renew them again unto repentance") would make no sense.
So, the persons we are discussing had been "enlightened," were "partakers of the Holy Ghost,"and had "tasted of the word of God and the powers of the age to come." AND--they had experienced repentance of their sins.
The depth and breadth of the spiritual experiences described for these persons is hardly to be passed off as merely being "caught up in the excitement of the moment."