quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi GB,
Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
At the Rapture, only believers will see the Lord in the clouds. For the Lord will come, we know not when, like a "thief in the night" and take us, snatch up, rapture, His church from earth. This will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). In other words, the Lord will appear in the clouds -- then, we Christians will be snatched up, raptured, in a split second -- so fast that the world will not know what has happened. To them, suddenly millions, maybe billions, of people were there -- then, quicker than they could blink their eyes -- they were gone.
In the case of the Rapture -- He will come FOR His church.
Now, those who have read of or been told of the Rapture -- will begin to put two and two together and realize what has happened. But, unfortunately, these folks, even though they see the Light, will be left behind and will have to endure the Tribulation. We know from the Bible that the harvest of souls, those saved, during the Tribulation will be a number too great to count. In other words, the Rapture will cause many to reevaluate their lives -- and get on the path to glory with God. But, still, these new Christians will have to suffer, and many die, be martyred for their faith, in the Tribulation.
Yet, at His Second Coming -- all the world will see Him coming in glory -- and He will be coming WITH His church, the Bride of Christ. All the world will see Him during His Second Coming and they will mourn -- for they will know that it is now time to pay the piper -- to settle accounts with the Son of God.
Yes, Christians will endure the Tribulation -- but, only those who became believers AFTER the Rapture.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Bill you and I have threshed this out in another "Rapture" discussion and we had to agree to disagree. I fully believe you are completely wrong in your translation of the Olivet discourse and like many Pre-Tribulationist requires you to mold scripture to meet your position. It requires you to take Revelation Figuratively instead of a literal reading and make applications that just aren't there or backed up by Scripture. The Pre-Tribulation position has NO Scriptural backing unless you use selectivity construed Scripture to mean what it doesn't say.
Regarding the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 if you interpret it the way you are then you are saying that Christ, in His direct and literal answer to His Disciples, regarding an answer to their questions about the end times, failed to mention or advise them about the Rapture. In your interpretation and other Pre-Tribulationist leave Christ failing to tell of the Rapture in his answer, something He plainly doesn't do. He tells of the Rapture in Matthew 24:30 & 31 but in order to see this you have to consider that pre-tribulationist interpretation of scripture is skewed and wrong.
You wish to argue this point or disagree then where did Christ advise His Disciples of the Rapture or cover the Rapture in the Olivet discourse, a direct answer to their questions about the end times and how to recognize them?
Likewise you have to omit 1 Thessalonians 5:4 from all consideration in order to keep Christians and Saints of God in complete darkness so that the coming of Christ, the Rapture, still comes as a "thief in the night". You want to say that Christians are caught unawares of Christ return for His Saints but plainly 1 Thessalonians 5:4 says "Brothers" .. that is Christians, Bill, who are being addressed .. you ARE NOT in darkness for this day to surprise you. Why? Because Christ explained (in Matthew 24, His Olivet Discourse) exactly how the end times would play out. You however, like typical pre-tribulationist cannot accept those literal uses and understanding of scripture because then it can't be used to back a position that you have adopted as your own.
As dogmatically as I can say it, as a former pre-tribulationist advocate, Pre-Tribulation is in error and is not scriptural.
It is evident though that you nor I will budge regarding these points but if you wish to continue to follow them then we can rehash all that again and start with your explanation of where Christ covers that Rapture in the Olivet Discourse or WHY he omitted it all together, a most profound event, the "Blessed Hope" for Christians. I say he, Christ, did cover it and explain to the disciples about it and that is found in Matthew 24:30 & 31. Your failing to see it because it doesn't fit your doctrine regarding rapture timing. Explain just who in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is saying will not be in Darkness about the coming of Christ? Who are these recipients of this letter are special that they are not in darkness as apparently everyone else is? The whole context of the passage, following immediately after 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 definitely ties it to the Rapture and not the 2nd coming as you so badly wish to apply to Matthew 24:30 & 31. I say that the writer of 1 Thessalonians just encouraged the recipients of the letter about how they will be caught up to be with Christ in the latter days and advised them that unlike the unsaved who will be caught unawares, like a thief in the night, they will have signs that will announce and precede when Christ will come back for His Church. Signs Christ foretold in Matthew 24:29 that are echoed and fulfilled in Revelation Chapter 6:12, 13 & 14.
Compare: Matthew 24:29 (NIV) 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' with it's fulfillment in Revelation 6:12-14
Revelation 6:12-14 (NIV) 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Many won't care either way as many don't believe or accept there is a rapture in the first place. I personally believe there is a Rapture and that it occurs in Revelation 7:4, not Revelation 4:1 which again requires some very colorful figurative reading and translation in order to make a pre-tribulation timing application.
If however you agree that it would be better to just agree to disagree I will hope you will allow us to leave it at that and we be in disagreement regarding it. Others can make up their own minds, prayerfully reading the scriptures involved and in their own studies.