Skip to main content

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I am dismayed at reading your post. I have been a part of this church since the late 70's. Like all churches with human beings in them we have had problems. Until recent history though we had the same pastor for over 40 years in this area. He by no means was a perfect man, but he kept it together because he served from a servants heart. And I mean serve....not for a great salary or beautiful home. He loved us and we knew it. We have had no problem accepting other leaders, but we are not dumb sheep. We know when leaders are using the Word to control, and the sermons are all about their leadership and calling. It is all about serving God for all of us and we are the church as individuals. Emotionally healthy people will not accept that kind of leadership. My prayer has been that leaders would be willing to come to their people and say, "let me hear your concerns;", or "I am willing to take responsibility for some of the misunderstandings, or hurts." Very few will ever do that. That is a rare leader. I pray for the leadership at Faith to hear the people. They are not rebellious, they are abused just as a verbally abusive husband or unfaithful husband will try to convince a wife of her failures to cover his tracks. It is a common human behavior to deflect responsibility. I pray for the Davis family and I would never want them misused in any way. But others like me are tired of coming to worship to spend an hour to hear why someone is called to be there so you had better get on board with him. Only someone who is very insecure wields power that way... Surely if God has truly called you specifically to a place, then just serve and teach your people the Word and we will grow together.
I started to erase my post because I do not want to label the leader......I can only say honestly what it has felt like as one who comes to worship and finds myself feeling fussed on for something. I recognize the behavior and I even understand the roots of his responses to any opposition. That does not mean the opposition is mean spirited, or from Satan to destroy him. I cannot judge a heart, but I can say it does not feel good nor does it make you want to follow. We are a community of believers who want to worship and celebrate our love of God. If the Pastor was not addressing these things in the congregation most of us would not know about them. What a change if a leader was humble enough to say I may not be leading correctly. Help me to understand what you feel and while I may not agree I will listen and not debate it. Only fear and insecurity fuel pulling rank. Love and Character are the characteristics I look for in and individual. I don't look to see if the they say the right spiritual words to make it seem they are on target. I look for a humble, loving attitude and a man of character.
I am not sure why anyone should think this established church should follow The Rock..It is what makes so much of Christianity seem cheap. We repeat formulas trying to put God in a box. I am not sure what you mean by being called to the carpet.
quote:
Originally posted by BillD:
OK, so may I ask what becomes the next step?

At this time which direction does the congregation want to go? I've heard the idea of being under THE ROCK's lead and covering has been almost completely rejected.

I ask these question because its clear that someone else is leading the congregation. The only way the Pastor can get that power back is to use his rank authority and wield swift power through acts like quickly firing off elders and positing/hiring leaders that will vow support.

Unless the Uhaul shows up soon, can the congregation handle being called to the carpet?


Perhaps (but see below) that church should re-evaluate its system of governance in light of how the New Testament defines church governance. Your description, below, is not consistent with New Testament teaching on the role of elders. You have said:

"The only way the Pastor can get that power back is to use his rank authority and wield swift power through acts like quickly firing off elders and positing/hiring leaders that will vow support."

In the New Testament, the term "pastor" and "elder" are synonymous. Churches of the New Testament era consistently had a plurality of elders or pastors. There was no "pastor" of the kind so often employed in today's churches, who serves as something of a CEO. The very notion of a pastor firing off elders is foreign to the scriptural concept of church governance!

In Acts 19:27, where Paul is meeting with the Ephesian elders, he says this:

"28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

"overseers" is plural. Here, as elsewhere in the New Testament, it is clearly contemplated that there is to be a plurality of elders, not just one big boss man. When governance was set up in newly-established churches, it was through the appointment of "elders" (plural).

Acts 14:23: "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."

Titus 1:5: "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee..."

James 5:14: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord..."

The concept of a unitary pastor with authority over church direction is foreign to the New Testament, though common in many churches today that claim to follow the New Testament. Perhaps some of the difficulty described in this post arises from unscripturally vesting too much authority in a single individual. I do not know with certainty that this is the case, since I do not know all the details of how the church under discussion is governed. But I know this. The concept you have described is not a scriptural one and any church placing a single "pastor" in a position of being able to fire elders, has created a system that is not defensible on Biblical grounds and thus ought to be prayerfully reconsidered.

On the subject of "elders," churches that allege that they are following the Scriptural concept of church governance need to be sure that those appointed as elders meet the qualifications for elders as set forth in Titus 1....

"6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."

and in I Timothy 3.

Here the term "bishop" is used, but there is no distinction between "elder" and "bishop" in the context of the New Testament. (I will not explain this here, but if anyone doubts it, I will be pleased to elaborate).

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

"2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

Fuzzy-cheeked, unmarried and childless Mormon "elders" in their late teens and early twenties who ride up to your house on their bicycles from time to time can hardly be said to meet these qualifications!
quote:
Originally posted by BillD: I just find it interesting that senior leadership seems to vacation or leave town anytime an inconvenient church political situation occurs there.


For the record, the senior leadership you are referring to has been tending to his dying brother in another state during this "situation." He and his family have not been conveniently vacationing. Please get your facts straight before you post something as the truth.
Hi all,

Just out of curiosity -- why does this discussion have no title? In three years on the Forums I have never seen a discussion without a title. How can anyone respond if we do not know what is being discussed?

And, if it is just a private argument between a couple of people -- it would seem logical and considerate to take the argument to PMs or private e-mails.

Just curious.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
Hi Bill Gray,
You ask a very good question. You see someone named "BillD" started this discussion to air a difficult circumstance that a local church is facing. Since the name of the pastor of that local church has the name Bill and last name starts with a D, it could be thought he recklessly put church business on this public forum. However, since I wouldn't think he would be that foolish, I must assume someone is trying to make us think it is him. Either way, it is a cowardly way to deal with the issues this church is dealing with. Shame on you BillD for trying to humiliate or cast a negative label on this local church.
BillD asked 'ok what is the next step'? (See above..)
I think, Lot's of prayer...lot's of humility...lot's of mercy and grace are a step in the right direction. And I'm not talking about the congregation doing all the praying, humbling and showing mercy. Leaders are called 'leaders' for a reason. A wise parent knows "A soft word turns away wrath".
Since I know this pastor wouldn't do anything intentionally to hurt this church, and I know that this congregation would not maliciously hurt a pastor, I feel they will come up with a solution that will bring peace and healing to everyone. This congregation of believers are just like all others. They are good, loving and kind people who are human. We have opinions, emotions, and even make mistakes, but above all we have a desire to please our God.
quote:
Originally posted by ME:
Hi Bill Gray,
You ask a very good question. You see someone named "BillD" started this discussion to air a difficult circumstance that a local church is facing. Since the name of the pastor of that local church has the name Bill and last name starts with a D, it could be thought he recklessly put church business on this public forum. However, since I wouldn't think he would be that foolish, I must assume someone is trying to make us think it is him. Either way, it is a cowardly way to deal with the issues this church is dealing with. Shame on you BillD for trying to humiliate or cast a negative label on this local church.

Hi ME,

Somehow, in typing that -- I get the feeling I am talking to myself.

Oh, well, I understand what you mean. A couple of years ago, when I was butting heads with several atheists on the Forum, one -- Fish -- pulled that stunt on me. He used my name with a slight variation -- and the mods made him change it. Then, he used a picture of me as his avatar -- and the mods came to my rescue.

And several times he would post a derogatory statement and put my name on it as though I had posted it. Once again, the mods deleted it.

He was always trying to pull a stunt similar to what you say this new fellow has done. You should report it to the mods and explain what he is doing. If he is impersonating another person to be malicious; they will help.

But, I still cannot understand why the discussion has no title or name.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
Bill Gray, BillD was talking about a church issue which he clearly had no clue about and was exposed. Once he was exposed on his lack of knowledge on the issue, he wisely edited the topic. The original topic was a blatant lie and attack of our Sr leader. Hes just a fanboy for the current and/or old pastor and was just trying to stir the pot and attack the church.


as 4 billd he was deadon. blatant lie or ur fairy tale of truth?
i dont c where anybody said vacation was a funeral. just they r always gone when something goes down. i'm sure u would consider me a snotnosed brat just a few outta my teens but I gotta enough sense to realize after seeing our church go through this now twice n 2 yrs and every yr or so with the other pastors that its US on the inside not who we bring n!!! Frowner
quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
You obviously dont know why the other pastor left... its not us, trust me. The problem is most members arent told whats going on behind closed doors. Its a shame. This is what happens when you keep the members in the dark, they dont know whats right and whats wrong. It looks like we are ganging up against our pastors, but theres more to the story.


don't ya mean pastorsssssss? u'd b surprised what what folks know & how that differs from the spin from the mob. having the audacity 2 point a finger is just pride. either we r sad at chosing pastors or grow tired of our pastors bout 2 yrs. take ur choice it b us
quote:
don't ya mean pastorsssssss? u'd b surprised what what folks know & how that differs from the spin from the mob. having the audacity 2 point a finger is just pride. either we r sad at chosing pastors or grow tired of our pastors bout 2 yrs. take ur choice it b us


I believe in one post you stated that others might think you are just a kid. While I understand your feelings are very real, I would encourage to always focus on the main thing. That is Christ and your relationship with him. men fail and often have their own agendas. You are young and may not have some of the life experiences that give you the wisdom to discern. I can not speak for each leader, but I can assure you that several serve with integrity and great sacrifice to take care of the body. They have served for a long time with integrity and great sacrifice. They do not have a desire to harm anyone, but they will try to protect the sheep from being maligned and manipulated from the pulpit.

Pastors often fail, and we can choose to forgive. Because someone has failed and others have forgiven does not mean that person is ready for a trusted position. Trust has to be earned. That is not being spiteful or mean.

I would recommend you read "The Emotionally Healthy Church" to learn more about the issues.
It is written by a pastor has he grew in leadership abilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
Every Pastor that left and/or will leave needed to leave. Now the Youth Pastor thing you have a point, but as for the Pastors... they left because of things they did, you cant blame the people for a mans actions.


sorry "right" but you're wrong on a few issues, I don't think that you were not in the "know" on a close level, but not the closest level...so with that in mind.....not every youth pastor left due to their actions.....it was proven that every "action" was a lie brought against them to "oust" them. The parent meeting held proved that. The leadership that "killed" the last guy made up the weakest of accusations because they didn't have the character to tell the truth.
So, yes it sucks to be a teen at Faith.

The real question that BillD was asking in a round about way is, "Is there a petition to oust the new Pastor?" because phone calls says there is.
I just hope all the facts are presented to the congregation. A lot of people don't have a clue what the important issues against the pastor really are. We need to know in order to make a prayerful decision, otherwise, people make poor emotional decisions. Former pastor situation was kept in secret and handled very poorly. People took sides without knowing the facts. He was allowed to repent to the church and we were asked to forgive something we didn't know or understand. It dragged out for months with threats of legal action of which we didn't understand. Never knew 'from whom' or 'what about'. Hope members of church leadership don't do that to us again. If it can't be resolved behind closed doors with leadership, then get it in the light and tell the congregation all the accusations against him. Church...Do it right or don't do it at all.
I'm not at this church because of any one man, and won't leave because of any one man. Many years of friends and family are the reason we are part of this body of believers. A sermon will come and go. I like some, I don't like others. I realized a long time ago that this life is between me and my Lord. There is no man between us. That's why many believers left the church that believed in priests and popes. I believe I will be held accountable directly to Jesus for MY actions and beliefs. So whatever the outcome of this situation, this is a good church to be a part of.
quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
The youth pastor brought in by the previous pastor, and was let go with the same said pastor, deserved to be let go because of his actions. As for other youth pastors, IDK..... but that one def needed to go.

As for the petition, there is one. Thats a fact.


Are you referencing to the youth pastor that was hired by E.L? If so, that's what I'm talking about, every "action" they (elders) "said" was a lie and was proven a lie in parent meeting. Your church is so jacked up! No wonder you can't attract new people all you get in the same cycle of Christians who make their way around every few years.
quote:
Originally posted by ME:
I just hope all the facts are presented to the congregation. A lot of people don't have a clue what the important issues against the pastor really are. We need to know in order to make a prayerful decision, otherwise, people make poor emotional decisions. Former pastor situation was kept in secret and handled very poorly. People took sides without knowing the facts. He was allowed to repent to the church and we were asked to forgive something we didn't know or understand. It dragged out for months with threats of legal action of which we didn't understand. Never knew 'from whom' or 'what about'. Hope members of church leadership don't do that to us again. If it can't be resolved behind closed doors with leadership, then get it in the light and tell the congregation all the accusations against him. Church...Do it right or don't do it at all.


That's because there were lawsuits against certain people and leadership didn't have the knowledge on what to do and instead acted in fear because by the time they did seek legal advice the lawyer said, "these suits won't hold up in a court of law" But it was too late! The church started to split and people who didn't walk got fired. Bad leadership produces bad outcome.....it's why the church is voting on June 6 to decide if they are going to keep or oust B.D......show me where that is in the Bible!
quote:
Bad leadership produces bad outcome.....it's why the church is voting on June 6 to decide if they are going to keep or oust B.D......show me where that is in the Bible!


You can't tell me where 90% of what we call 'church' is at in the Bible. We are following a pattern of Judaism and Catholicism in our churches today and used the Epistles as our form, when they were designed to help the already existing Synagoges who were in error. Jesus never wasted His time with His followers, teaching them how to build a building and hire a preacher. He didn't tell them how to be subserviant to the Sanhedrin or the Pharisees. He didn't lay out a chain of command when his disciiples asked who would sit at his right hand, and Paul didn't say which one of the ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 were superior to the others. The church today is the picture of the Hebrews telling Moses 'to go up on the mountain and talk to God for us'. And again when they cried for a king, when God Himself would have lead them.
I thank God for the people in the body of Christ that are gifted leaders, but the system we have established today brings out the weakness of men/women. Very few can handle the attention and adoration of hundreds of fans. The danger of thinking SOME are 'called' of God makes me tremble. WE ARE ALL CALLED OF GOD ! If I elevate myself because of my 'calling' I am going against the teaching of the Lord. He washed feet. He had no place to lay His head. He was a shepherd not a cattle driver. He shook the legalism of the system, but here we are centuries later, more educated in His Word than any generation before us and we are still trying to manipulate and condem people to line up and follow a man and conform to the system. Wake up Church.
quote:
You can't tell me where 90% of what we call 'church' is at in the Bible. We are following a pattern of Judaism and Catholicism in our churches today and used the Epistles as our form, when they were designed to help the already existing Synagoges who were in error. Jesus never wasted His time with His followers, teaching them how to build a building and hire a preacher. He didn't tell them how to be subserviant to the Sanhedrin or the Pharisees. He didn't lay out a chain of command when his disciiples asked who would sit at his right hand, and Paul didn't say which one of the ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 were superior to the others. The church today is the picture of the Hebrews telling Moses 'to go up on the mountain and talk to God for us'. And again when they cried for a king, when God Himself would have lead them.
I thank God for the people in the body of Christ that are gifted leaders, but the system we have established today brings out the weakness of men/women. Very few can handle the attention and adoration of hundreds of fans. The danger of thinking SOME are 'called' of God makes me tremble. WE ARE ALL CALLED OF GOD ! If I elevate myself because of my 'calling' I am going against the teaching of the Lord. He washed feet. He had no place to lay His head. He was a shepherd not a cattle driver. He shook the legalism of the system, but here we are centuries later, more educated in His Word than any generation before us and we are still trying to manipulate and condem people to line up and follow a man and conform to the system. Wake up Church.


Preach it!
Now that it has been announced that Pastor Bill has been asked to resign I feel it is important that everyone get a copy of the grievances against him. We should not make up our minds from hearsay, but by reading and prayerfully considering all sides. I will say this...these elders have been at this church for many many years. They are not perfect men, but wouldn't do anything to deliberately make things difficult for the pastor, whoever he is. Their concern is for the security and protection of the people, so If you are relatively new to this church, please consider this when forming your opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Why would any church have to have a petition to get rid of a Pastor? Aren't they always voted in/out by the church?


quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
No petition needed, hes already been asked to resign. He refused so now the church will vote on it.


Below is your post that there is a petition.
What church is this?

quote:
Originally posted by Right...:
Yes there is a petition out there and I fully support it. Anyone in the know would support it.
As a member of this body for 3 decades our allegiances have to be only to one person and that is God. We are all human and have weaknesses, but to ignore that a man is setting himself in a position with no accountability to anyone and his paid staff refuses to look through any other lens than their paychecks makes a mockery of truth and all it means to be following in the steps of our Lord. I grieve over the fact that said leader can ignore budgetary constraints and cautions to take cruises with staff, preaches a tithe for weeks and then gives less than 5%, and angrily intimidates any who dare to bring these things to his attention. The issues the elders have addressed are not vindictive, but facts that could have legal ramifications. The men who are elders not perfect men, but they are respectful servants who have visited, encouraged and loved a body for many more years than the man who calls himself Pastor. They have earned our respect with their servant hearts. The Pastor has all but destroyed their reputations with his staff and others for his purposes. Who do you trust? The men who have faithfully served this body for many years often doing the work of Pastor without the pay or accolades or the man who wields his power? Our elders have failed in one thing and that is entrusting our body to someone so emotionally imbalanced. After having one leader so long that sacrificed his life by living in a basement for so many years to keep our body debt free and who was trustworthy in all his ways it is understandable they did not have the experiences to make the best decisions. I grieve that any man could so deceive and misuse people. The charges the elders have made are verifiable and just the financial transactions alone would not cause a skeptic to question integrity. He came saying he would never have access to the finances to prevent any dishonor to his position......now he has total access defying the accountability standards of a Christian organization. If you are in favor of this man then at least question what needs to be addressed. Beware though you suffer the rude awakening that he does not handle that well. No man is more called than any other believer.....we are all ministers of the gospel. He wants respect.....that has to be earned.
Well said CD. We follow the Lord Jesus with childlike faith, but men should be held to accountability. Even if the Lord brought the man here as he claims, and I have no reason to dispute, he is accountable and knew when he came that we had an eldership he would have to work with. Please fellow readers of this forum, if you haven't read the grievances get a copy and know both sides. The elders asked to read them yesterday and were denied access to the pulpit, so their only way of letting the congregation know the issues was to circulate the paper. I thank them for that. Again pastor misrepresented the facts by telling us in service that he was promised it wouldn't be given out but I was told by several that they never made that promise to him.
quote:
Originally posted by CD:
As a member of this body for 3 decades our allegiances have to be only to one person and that is God. We are all human and have weaknesses, but to ignore that a man is setting himself in a position with no accountability to anyone and his paid staff refuses to look through any other lens than their paychecks makes a mockery of truth and all it means to be following in the steps of our Lord. I grieve over the fact that said leader can ignore budgetary constraints and cautions to take cruises with staff, preaches a tithe for weeks and then gives less than 5%, and angrily intimidates any who dare to bring these things to his attention. The issues the elders have addressed are not vindictive, but facts that could have legal ramifications. The men who are elders not perfect men, but they are respectful servants who have visited, encouraged and loved a body for many more years than the man who calls himself Pastor. They have earned our respect with their servant hearts. The Pastor has all but destroyed their reputations with his staff and others for his purposes. Who do you trust? The men who have faithfully served this body for many years often doing the work of Pastor without the pay or accolades or the man who wields his power? Our elders have failed in one thing and that is entrusting our body to someone so emotionally imbalanced. After having one leader so long that sacrificed his life by living in a basement for so many years to keep our body debt free and who was trustworthy in all his ways it is understandable they did not have the experiences to make the best decisions. I grieve that any man could so deceive and misuse people. The charges the elders have made are verifiable and just the financial transactions alone would not cause a skeptic to question integrity. He came saying he would never have access to the finances to prevent any dishonor to his position......now he has total access defying the accountability standards of a Christian organization. If you are in favor of this man then at least question what needs to be addressed. Beware though you suffer the rude awakening that he does not handle that well. No man is more called than any other believer.....we are all ministers of the gospel. He wants respect.....that has to be earned.


Sounds to me like the locks on this church need to be changed. If the pastor can't get in, he can't abuse the powers that be.
quote:
mrsblueskies
New Kid on the Block
Posted 01 June 2010 10:07 AM Hide Post
I can't wait to be a part of a church!
Same ole, same ole. What a waste of human emotions, time, and energy. Follow God, love others and live simply. Save yourself headaches and ulcers. Changing "pastors" or buildings won't change the basic corrupt system.


I agree mrsblueskies. Unfortunately, too many don't have your revelation and are still in the system. Unfortunately, there will always be men trying to build their empires 'in the name of God' so they can feel superior to others.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×