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Dear folks, Please take time to read the article before you reply to the article. This way, by reading the article, you will know what it's saying and you can reply if you agree or disagree and why. I think it's well worth the read. It's one of those articles that make you think. I appreciate your cooporation. And if you just wish to read and not make a comment, that's fine too.



WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?
A simple question, with many answers


Quotations:

"Any phenomenon as complex and as vital as Christianity is easier to describe historically than to define logically." From Encarta's definition of "Christianity." 1

"What is a Christian, anyway? Someone of European descent? A persecutor of Jews? Someone who votes for only the most conservative Republicans? At times all of these answers have seemed plausible. Some use these definitions to this day. In Christian circles the answers are no clearer. A Christian is sometimes said to be someone who has made a decision; sometimes, someone who belongs to a church; far too often, someone who confesses the right creeds." Mark M. Mattison 2




Note:
If you regard yourself to be a Christian, you will probably have a personal definition of exactly who is a real Christian and who is not. The purpose of this essay is not to criticize your definition. It is to explain the full range of meanings that people have given to the term "Christian." Please do not Email us with angry messages because we describe beliefs that differ from yours. We are merely reporting the full diversity of beliefs about this topic.



Overview:
One of the more interesting, and frustrating, features of religion is the variety of meanings given to common terms. Many religious words have multiple -- often mutually exclusive -- meanings. For example:


We have found 9 meanings for the term "cult:" one positive, four neutral, three negative and one very negative.

We have found 17 meanings for the term "witch" - mostly unrelated to each other; mostly negative.


There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân). Three examples are:


Most liberal Christian denominations, secularists, public opinion pollsters, and this web site define "Christian" very broadly as any person or group who sincerely believes themselves to be Christian. Thus, Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believers, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, United Church members, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc. are all considered Christian. They total about 75% of the North American adult population.

However, many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants define "Christian" more narrowly to include only those persons who have been "born again" regardless of their denomination. Perhaps 35% of the North American adult population are Christian by this definition.

Some Protestant Christian denominations, para-church groups, and individuals have assembled their own lists of cardinal Christian doctrines. Many would regard anyone who denies even one of their cardinal doctrines to be a non-Christian. Unfortunately, there is a wide diversity of belief concerning which historical Christian beliefs are cardinal.

Other denominations regard their own members to be the only true Christians in the world. Some are quite small, numbering only a few thousand followers.


Different definitions on such a fundamental topic makes dialog and debate among Christian groups very difficult. It also makes estimating the number of Christians in the U.S. quite impossible. By some definitions, 75% of Americans are Christians; by other definitions, it is a small fraction of 1%.

Yet, from the negative Emails that we receive on this topic, there are many Christians out there who hold with fierce determination to their own definition of "Christian" as the only valid one.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm
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If someone tells me they are a Christian I accept that as truth. It is not for me to decide if they are or are not. Thats Gods job - not mine. There are, as the article points out, great differences of opinion as to who is right and who is wrong. That is the reason we have denominations to begin with. I do not question the belief of any professing Christian - we are all part of the body of Christ. I have attended the churches of Christ, Methodist, was baptised into the Baptist Church as a teenager, attended the Assembly of God, Church of God, Seventh Day Adventists, but I finally found my home with the Episcopalians. I found great love, vision, kindness, and something of worth in each church I have ever attended. Worrying over the legalisms and differences is a waste of our time. So far I have only ever had one person tell me I was not a Christian. It was on one of the TD threads and his assessment of my Christian life was based on my political leanings. It was a perfect example of what is wrong with our country at the moment. Polarization in politics has crept into our faith systems, secularizing the very fabric of our Christian community. It is no longer enough to call ones self a Christian - one must prove it in the voting booth. It is both judgemental, superficial and immature - on so many levels.
meanasasnake:[Quote] one must prove it in the voting booth[Quote]

So...it's not the life you live, but the way you vote? Roll Eyes If there is a God, will you ever be surprised when you stand before him on Judgement day!!


pba:
[Quote]WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?[Quote}

Don't know any, though I know alot that claim to be.
If you say I'm a Christian I will laugh in your face.

If you say you're a Christian I won't show any emotion in your respect of an opinion.

The word Christian has been abused so heavily in politics , churches and everything else , I just mind my on business and let people say whatever they want to.

I know a lot of good people and a lot of good people by heart and I've NEVER considered any of them to be Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by Taciturn:
meanasasnake:[Quote] one must prove it in the voting booth[Quote]

So...it's not the life you live, but the way you vote? Roll Eyes If there is a God, will you ever be surprised when you stand before him on Judgement day!!



pba:
[Quote]WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?[Quote}

Don't know any, though I know alot that claim to be.



Did you even read my post? That was what I said. Religion and politics are not the same thing. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
If someone tells me they are a Christian I accept that as truth. It is not for me to decide if they are or are not. Thats Gods job - not mine. There are, as the article points out, great differences of opinion as to who is right and who is wrong. That is the reason we have denominations to begin with. I do not question the belief of any professing Christian - we are all part of the body of Christ. I have attended the churches of Christ, Methodist, was baptised into the Baptist Church as a teenager, attended the Assembly of God, Church of God, Seventh Day Adventists, but I finally found my home with the Episcopalians. I found great love, vision, kindness, and something of worth in each church I have ever attended. Worrying over the legalisms and differences is a waste of our time. So far I have only ever had one person tell me I was not a Christian. It was on one of the TD threads and his assessment of my Christian life was based on my political leanings. It was a perfect example of what is wrong with our country at the moment. Polarization in politics has crept into our faith systems, secularizing the very fabric of our Christian community. It is no longer enough to call ones self a Christian - one must prove it in the voting booth. It is both judgemental, superficial and immature - on so many levels.


Great post, mean.

Christian simply means a follower of Christ. It began as a mocking term for early followers of Christ in Antioch, but was embraced as a name of honor. Before this, they called themselves believers, brothers or saints.

I think the foundation is important...belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord of your life and following the example he set for us. We can interpret much of the Bible differently and still see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by pba:
How many times will God forgive the same sin? Some repeat sin daily after asking God to forgive them.

From what I can read and hear the so called christians talk about is war. The christians are getting ready for a war and I don't understand it all yet but I'm reading on it.


pba, are you a Christian? By that, I mean (Wink) have you ever accepted Christ as Savior and Lord of your life?
quote:
who's not a christian? All you have to do is proclaim yourself one, and interpret the bible any way you want.

DF


DeepFat are you saying that truth doesn't exist? We all make our own truth? We get to pick and whatever we decide is real truth? Are you kidding me? Is all of life subjective? At the end of all subjectivity, are you saying that there is no final, absolute, objective truth? How about gravity, is it real? What if we all disagreed about gravity? What if I thought it might exist, you say no way it doesn't exist and someone else say it sort of exists, but "all you have to do is proclaim whatever you want about gravity and that will be gravity for you!" Certainly NOT!

There exists an absolute, objective truth about what it means to be a Christian. In fact, all those you tell to proclaim there own truth will some day stand before a Holy God and say "i did great things for you, I went to church and read the Bible and told people that if they just say they are a Christian it will be true! He will respond by saying, "depart from me, I never knew you."

With all of the "different" definitions of Christian, one should make it their lifes' pursuit to know what that really means and be sure they TRULY become one.
Most of them probably are right.

(Church of Christ) You can sing a hymn with no piano then ask the Lord to save you....(Baptist) you can take a vote on how the church money is spent then ask the Lord to save you...(Catholic) you can tell the priest your sins then ask the Lord to save you....(Pentacostal)you can speak in tongues then ask the Lord to save you...(Charismatic Church) you can lift your hands in the air and dance then ask the Lord to save you.........I could go on and on.

It all comes back to the cross. 1 cross + 3 nails = 4 given
lol...... this is fun.

You have christians who believe in the trinity, those who don't. Those who sprinkle, those who dunk. Liberal and conservative christians. Catholics who believe you can't talk to god except through clergy, prots who don't. Christians who speak in tongues, those who see that as silly. I could go on.

it's a Rorschach blot. Start with a vague notion, interpret it how you wish.

DF
It's funny and sad at the same time. That's why I don't see Christianity as a religion. Christ hated religion because people thought that they were saved by their own works ie. tithing, keeping the commandments, doing good deeds, going to church.... Religion was invented by man.

I know everybody has their own personal opinion on what Christianity is. Mine is Christianity is about Christ and how he died on the cross for my sins and gave me grace. You don't need religion to have grace, you just have to believe that Jesus rose from the grave and confess your sins to him so that he can take up residence in you.
Hi to my TimesDaily Friends,

How do you recognize a Christian person or a Christian church? Just because a church has a nice facade -- freshly painted white building, nice tall steeple with a cross on top, freshly manicured lawn -- does not make it a Christian church. It may look like a Christian church; it may smell like a Christian church; it may even taste like a Christian church -- but, is it a Christian church?

Come on now, you ask, how can you tell by looking at the building if this is a Christian church?

See, in just the first few minutes, we have already gotten to the heart of the problem. You cannot tell by just looking at the building if this is a Christian church; just like you cannot tell by just looking at a person, or by just observing a person, if he is truly a Christian. With a person, only he and God truly knows for sure; but, you can get a pretty good idea by talking with that person, by observing that person's daily walk, and if all else fails, by asking him.

Of course, thirty years ago, if I had been asked if I were a Christian, I would have given you an affirmative answer, "Sure, I am a Christian; I went to church when I was younger; I am a pretty nice guy; I don't beat my wife; I help old ladies, when I am caught watching their struggle -- yes, I am a Christian." Wrong! I did not even know how to be a Christian then. And many people today who confess to being Christian cannot tell you what a true Christian believes.

How about the church? How can you tell if that church just down the street from your new home is a Christian church or a cult church? What can you do, to be sure, before you subject your family to fellowship with them? When I find a new "Christian" church or a new "Christian" web site on the internet, the first thing I look for is their Doctrinal Beliefs. What do they teach? If their web site does not tell you their Doctrinal Beliefs, that is be a big red flag. However, to be fair, I will send them an e-mail asking for information on their Doctrinal Beliefs, and I will question why this extremely important information is not proudly displayed on their web site.

I had one so called "Christian" ministry once come back and tell me that they do not display their Doctrinal Beliefs because they do not want to offend anyone. Now, you be the judge. Is this a Christian ministry? If it is, then why are they ashamed to display what they believe about Jesus Christ? Personally, I think they offend God.

When the FBI trains their personal, and banking industry or treasury department personal, how to detect counterfeit money -- they teach them all about real money. They do not study the counterfeit; they study the real U.S. currency -- until they know it so well that a counterfeit will stand out like a big red flag.

That is how we are to tell a cult church from a true Christian church; that is how we are to tell a false teacher from a true Christian teacher; that is how we tell true Christianity from false teaching -- by spending a lot of time in the Word, in prayer, studying the teachings and the messages God has given us in the Bible, His Word.

There are many issues, which, while interesting to discuss, do not determine if we are Christian nor do they determine our salvation. On these issues we may agree to disagree; but, we should never let them become divisive. Issues such as baptism: should it be by immersion or sprinkling? Baptism of the Holy Spirit: is it the same as the one time indwelling and the daily filling of the Holy Spirit, or is this a separate event, separate from the moment you pray and received Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? Eternal security: do we have Jesus' promise of eternal security, or can a truly born-again Christian lose their salvation?

Then, there are issues such as: will the Rapture occur before the Tribulation, during the Tribulation, or after the Tribulation; or will there actually be a Rapture? Many issues such as these are interesting to discuss; but, they do not determine our salvation. Let us, in Christian love, discuss these issues without letting them divide us. The truth will be known on the way up!

Then, there are Biblical doctrines that are essential, which if any church teaches anything else, it is not a Christian church. If a person believes anything else, he is not a Christian. The Bible clearly defines those doctrines which are essential to the Christian faith. They are:

1. The Deity of Jesus Christ: God incarnate, fully man -- yet, fully God.

2. The Trinity: God eternally existing; manifesting Himself in three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. The Inerrancy of the Bible: No errors in its moral and spiritual teaching and its record of historical facts.

4. Salvation by Grace: By grace you are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

5. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: He rose from the dead, so that you may also be raised up to join Him.

6. The Gospel of Jesus Christ: The birth, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Scripture.

These are the Biblical doctrines which we, as Christians, cannot compromise. Although there are other important doctrines, these six are declared by Scripture and are essential.

Any person who denies these beliefs is not a Christian. Any church which denies these beliefs is a cult church.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred;
California fed;
Blessed by God to be an American!
quote:
Originally posted by voiceofrezn:
DeepFat, I still want you to answer my question. Does truth exist? Not rationalization, not people interpretations, just a final truth?


May I?

If truth can be said to exists at all then Science is truth. Truth is what can be observed, predicted and falsifiable. Truth is what you can hold in your hand or see with your own eyes.

Truth is NOT what you imagine in your head.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
Most of them probably are right.

(Church of Christ) You can sing a hymn with no piano then ask the Lord to save you....(Baptist) you can take a vote on how the church money is spent then ask the Lord to save you...(Catholic) you can tell the priest your sins then ask the Lord to save you....(Pentacostal)you can speak in tongues then ask the Lord to save you...(Charismatic Church) you can lift your hands in the air and dance then ask the Lord to save you.........I could go on and on.

It all comes back to the cross. 1 cross + 3 nails = 4 given


It all comes back to the cross. 1 cross + 3 nails = 4 given ----- which is what all the churches you mentioned above believe as well. The things you mentioned are why there are denominations, not how a person is saved. "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." It is that simple.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Then, there are Biblical doctrines that are essential, which if any church teaches anything else, it is not a Christian church. If a person believes anything else, he is not a Christian. The Bible clearly defines those doctrines which are essential to the Christian faith. They are:

1. The Deity of Jesus Christ: God incarnate, fully man -- yet, fully God.

2. The Trinity: God eternally existing; manifesting Himself in three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. The Inerrancy of the Bible: No errors in its moral and spiritual teaching and its record of historical facts.

4. Salvation by Grace: By grace you are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

5. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: He rose from the dead, so that you may also be raised up to join Him.

6. The Gospel of Jesus Christ: The birth, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Scripture.

These are the Biblical doctrines which we, as Christians, cannot compromise. Although there are other important doctrines, these six are declared by Scripture and are essential.

Any person who denies these beliefs is not a Christian. Any church which denies these beliefs is a cult church.


Thank you, Bill! It's nice to hear someone speak on Christianity who studies the Bible and has perhaps been part of the church long enough to give an informed answer. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you right now. I think I better go get my coffee, read my Bible and lay off the forums until I'm stronger...hee, hee. I'm getting annoyed too easily lately.
quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
But, Joy, I Peter 3:21 says baptism does now save us... Since all the Bible is inerrant, these are God's words as well as Peter's.


Are you referring to what some denominations believe (I only know of one, but am sure there are more)...that you must be baptized to be saved, FV?
Once again - the Bible is not sacred. It is not equal to God. It should not be worshipped. The Church came first THEN the Bible. The Bible was organized by the Church FOR the Church.

Much of the Bible is devoted to encouraging the different early churches to get along. Christ himself even spoke of it.

Tolerance of other types of "Christianity": Jesus' disciples had rejected a healer who was exorcising demons in Jesus' name, yet was not one of Jesus direct followers. Jesus criticized his disciples and accepted the healer. Mark and Luke report the incident in parallel passages:
Mark 9:38-40 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." (KJV)
Luke 9:49-50 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

I am always amused by Christians trying to "out-Christian" one another.
Hi Joy, Trader, and Mean,

Since you were the last three to post, I will address your responses:

Does baptism -- immersion, sprinkling, or whatever -- save a person? NO! Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." This tells us that BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ, PLUS NOTHING ELSE -- you are saved. To base it upon anything done by man would be to have salvation through works -- which this passage tells us is not true.

However, do we just become Christians and then sit on our butts doing nothing in return? Absolutely not. In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus tells us to "Go, Make Disciples, Baptize, Teach them." Then in Acts 1:8, He tells us to be His witnesses in all the world. So, He wants us out there sharing the Gospel -- but, this all comes AFTER we are saved "by grace, through faith." Works do not save us; works are the fruit, and proof, of our salvation.

Trader, you say, "A christian is one who follows all of the 10 commandments of their interpretation...and I do that...except the ones I choose to ignore from time to time..."

Romans 3:20 tells us, "Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Romans 3:23 follows with, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Galatians 3:23-24 tells us, "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5) Jesus makes it clear that none of us is capable of keeping the Ten Commandments; but, we learned above that they were meant as a guideline for living, not a means of salvation. That is okay, for everything in the Bible points us toward one goal -- salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:16).

Mean, you say: "Once again - the Bible is not sacred. It is not equal to God. It should not be worshipped."

Is the physical book called the Bible sacred? No. As a matter of fact, the pastor, Sam Lacanienta, who led me to the Lord once emphasized this in our Bible study when he tossed his Bible on the floor. Everyone was shocked; then he used this illustration to explain that this is just a physical book. What is sacred is what is written in that book.

Mean, when you speak, or write, your words become an indelible part of you. Ever after, those words are identified with you. This, by the way, is a very good reason to measure our words before we release them upon the world.

By the same token, the Word of God, written down for us in our Bible, is sacred for it is of God. It is also inerrant in its moral and spiritual teaching and its record of historical facts. There have been literally thousands of archeological finds which have validated what was written in the Bible. There has never been a single archeological find which has proven the Bible to be wrong. Doesn't this make one want to be saved?

Then, Mean, you say, "The Church came first THEN the Bible. The Bible was organized by the Church FOR the Church."

This all depends upon what one describes as the Bible. If you are speaking of the physical book we today study to learn about God; you are correct. However, what has become our modern Bible began when Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. Then, Scripture continued to be written by the different prophets and men of God. When Jesus was teaching during His three year ministry on earth; He quoted from sacred Scripture, that written by these Old Testament prophets and men of God. Forgive the pun, but, our Bible "evolved" over a period of 1600 years; all inspired, or God breathed, by the Holy Spirit.

The church consists of all who are followers of Jesus Christ, what we today call born-again Christians (John 3:3, John 14:6). Shortly after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, the believers in Antioch were first called Christians, meaning they were followers of this Man called Jesus. It is a mantle we still proudly wear.

Yes, the Bible was organized by the church, or the followers of Jesus Christ. But, first it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written, under that inspiration, by forty different men in diverse geographical locations, across a period sixteen hundred years. Yet, it has a unity in its teaching: "Salvation through Jesus Christ." The Old Testament looks forward to the cross; the New Testament looks back at the finished work of the cross.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Finally, Mean, you say, "I am always amused by Christians trying to 'out-Christian' one another."

It is not a matter of us trying to "out-Christian" one another -- but, that, as followers of Jesus Christ, we must do as He instructs us in Matthew 28:18-20 and in Acts 1:8. We must Go, Make disciples, Baptize, Teach, and be His witnesses.

Let me get a head start on you, Mean, for I know you are about to jump on that word BAPTIZE. "Ah ha, Bill, you said baptism does not save us. Then, why does Jesus tell you to go BAPTIZE folks?"

Great question. You will notice that Jesus is giving this Great Commission to people who are already His followers, already believers. Then, He tells us to Go, Make disciples. He is telling us to go, witness to folks, tell them about His free gift of salvation, invite them to receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.

Then, after the fact of them receiving Him, which is salvation, we are to baptize them as a public witness that they have surrendered their lives to Him. Then, we are to teach them so that they, too, will grow in their knowledge of Jesus Christ, they will grow in their knowledge of the Gospel, and then they, too, can start making disciples of Jesus Christ and teaching them. That is how the church, the body of believers grew from the 120 people in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15) to the millions and millions who today confess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

I pray that I have given you answers which will inspire you to explore the Bible on your own. You will be surprised how many treasures you will find in this fascinating book.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Bred in Alabama,
Fed in California,
Blessed by God to be an American!

Bill & Dory's Ministry Web Site: www.BillDory-Christian-Ministries.com

To be added to my Friends Ministry mail list,
or to add a friend,
please e-mail me at billdory@pacbell.net

If you would like to become a prayer partner in the Worldwide Prayer Chain,
or would like more info on this intercessory prayer chain, please e-mail me at billdory@pacbell.net

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.
What would your church look like if you took away the pastor(s), the music and worship, the buildings, the favored programs, the sacraments and ceremonies, as well as the events and Sunday School? What would you have left? The answer of what is left is what impacts and what resounds in your church, and is where your church’s health lies. Because doing church is not about the pastor, the observances, or the programs. It is about how we come to know and grow in Christ, connect with one another, and serve Him, both inside and outside of the church walls. Pastors are to train us to do that as they point to Christ’s Authority and Lordship. The music helps keep us focused to praise Him, and the Sunday School helps disciple us. These are just ingredients; they are not the meal. Nevertheless, if these ingredients did go away, there should not be panic and crises if a church is centered upon Christ and not personalities and programs. Because what we have left is what is most important, and that is Christ, His presence, and His impact on us all. Leaders and programs are not the church. You are the church and your attitude of worship and spiritual formation is what resounds in His ears, what pleases Him, and, collectively with others, what builds a healthy church. If we forget this, we fail at what we are called to do! Remember! There were no vestments, pulpits, power points, hymnals, choirs, liturgies, rituals, bulletins, faculties, ushers, staff, or programs at Pentecost, in the Early Church, or even in many healthy churches today. What is present is His Impact upon the hearts and minds of His people, and His continuing work of love, reconciliation, and redemption upon all who make up a church. Is Christ impacting and resounding in your church, or is it something else?



Is Your Church Healthy?



A healthy church is one that is filled with His presence, is motivated to serve Him, and has love for “one another.”
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=32767&columnid=3881
Wow, Bill, I agree with everything you posted....a very rare occurrence for me on TD forums. I am doing a study on Daniel right now & it is blowing my mind. I literally have to pray to be smarter to take it all in. Smiler

During this study, something brought out by the author (to compare Daniel's discernment & recognition of Jeremiah's words as scripture) was a phrase in 2 Peter 3:16 that shows Peter's recognition of Paul's writings as more than just man's opinion.

2 Peter 3:15-16
"Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

I thought that was really cool.
Lu 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Lu 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
Lu 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
Lu 23:37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
Lu 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Lu 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Lu 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What is Christianity? Christianity is believing in Christ when all around us are mocking Him. It is accepting the penalty that He paid on the cross as full payment for our debt of sins. It is trusting In Jesus that He alone is our righteousness, our justification, our hope, and our salvation. It is trusting in Jesus as our personal Savior and Lord in the bad times as well as in the good times. There is not one thing of worth that we can do to save ourselves. The Ten Commandments were not given as a means to save us, but rather to show us all that we are guilty of sin, and worthy of death and judgment. If we fail in one small point of the law, we are guilty of all.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For those who tried to justify themselves by the law, Jesus used the law to expose the sin in their heart. Jesus said that evil desires and wrong thoughts were enough to condemn us, and not just the actual outward act of sin. He was not trying to make it even harder to be saved, but rather He was showing that it is impossible for us to save ourselves, or to justify ourselves by the law. We cannot by the good we do, escape the judgment of the evil that we have done, or the evil that we do. We all have inherited a sinful nature, and we all are guilty before God. When we see ourselves in the light of God’s word, we find ourselves as unworthy sinners. Yet when we continue to look into God’s word, we find His offer of mercy and grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

The thief on the cross believed that Jesus was who He said he was. He acknowledged that he was a sinner, and then he asked Jesus to remember Him when He had come into His kingdom. That was enough for Jesus. The publican, or Roman tax collector that was despised by his own people, would not so much lift up his eyes, but smote on his breast and cried out for God to have mercy on him a sinner. That was enough for Jesus to call him justified. See Luke 18:11 - 14

God’s law was never meant to save us, but rather to convict us of sin, and to bring us to Christ. Until we realize that we are sinners, we will not cry out for God’s mercy, and we will not accept Jesus as our only hope of salvation. Those who strive to obey the Ten Commandments as a means of saving themselves, and are truly honest with themselves, will either live a miserable life bound up in fear and carry impossible burdens, or they will give up and count God as a cruel God who makes it impossible to be saved. God’s law is perfect, but we are far from perfect. If we could save ourselves by living according to God’s law, then Christ’s sacrifice for us on the cross would have been in vain. If the law had not come, we would never realize just how sinful we are. We should not be carrying the impossible burden to save ourselves.

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior are born into the family of God. They are born in an instant of time by faith. Newborn children progress to different stages in life. Some are infants. Some are learning to crawl. Some are walking and stumbling. We never grow to perfection while in this world, because our human nature hinders us. We all are growing and maturing. Who has all the answers? Having all the right doctrines does not save us. I would caution anybody to beware of any church or group that identifies itself as the only way of salvation, and that all other groups are deceived and lost. The church does not save you. Jesus saves you. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man can go to the Father except by Him. We are not saved by what we know, or by what denomination we are affiliated with, but rather by whom we know. A person starts out their life as a child of God by simple faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. They might grow in understanding, but they will be no more saved than in the beginning. Salvation is not a complicated mystery that only a choice few have the understanding to. It is not a walk of continued enlightenment in which we are saved by knowledge. Our understanding of all the different aspects of scripture does not save us. All who call upon Jesus from the heart will be saved, not because they are worthy to be saved, and not because they have all the doctrines right, but because Jesus makes them worthy through the shedding of His blood, and the sacrifice of His innocent life on the cross.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus said that His sheep hear his voice and they follow Him. Following Jesus does not make us His sheep, but it is a characteristic of His sheep. Much less is expected of a newborn child of God, than of a mature child of God. But even an infant recognizes the voice of its loving parents and desires to be near them.

When we truly see what Jesus has done for us, and by faith receive the gift of eternal life, and receive the mercy that God has for us, our attitude should change. We should begin to follow Jesus from a heart of love. Love needs no law. Love fulfills the law. We should strive to live as Jesus would have us to live, but not in order to be saved, but rather because that is the least we can do for the one who gave His life for us and saved us.

Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

All who truly believe in Jesus, will receive the gift of eternal life that none can ever earn, and none will ever deserve. We cannot earn a gift. The mercy of God is great. None deserves what Jesus did for us. He did not do it because we deserve it, but simply because He loved us.

To FirenzeVeritas,

You made this statement: But, Joy, I Peter 3:21 says baptism does now save us... Since all the Bible is inerrant, these are God's words as well as Peter's.


Look at the verse as it is actually written and in the light it refers to.

1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I believe you are very sincere, but I believe that you are ignoring the like figure representation of this verse. Did water save Noah, or did believing God and building and boarding the ark save Noah? The water served as a symbolic or visible reference between the old life that Noah lived, and the new life that he would begin. I believe baptism gives us a good conscience toward God in the same way. It is a tangible thing that involves our physical senses and is a visible reminder that helps us to remember and mark the day when we made our public commitment to follow Christ. It is also a public confession and visible reminder to others that were present of the day we committed our lives to follow Jesus. There is definitely a blessing in it.

Now please bear with me and look at the following verses:

Ac 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

I ask you this. When did these people receive the Holy Spirit…before or after baptism? To believe that baptism is required for salvation is to believe that a sinner can receive the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t change his plan of salvation for anyone. These people were saved, and Peter knew that God had accepted them when he saw that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on them. No matter what you might believe concerning the gift of the Holy Spirit, surely you believe that the Holy Spirit can only be received by a born again child of God. I believe this actually happened as stated. Sometimes actions speak louder than words. Baptism is a commandment that should not be ignored, but we should be careful forming an interpretation from one or two scriptures that contradicts what is so clear in so many other verses of scripture. I understand where you are coming from, and I at one time believed as you do. But these scriptures did more than probably any other to make it clear to me that baptism is only a commandment that a child of God follows, and not a commandment that a sinner must follow in order to become a child of God.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
But, Joy, I Peter 3:21 says baptism does now save us... Since all the Bible is inerrant, these are God's words as well as Peter's.


Are you referring to what some denominations believe (I only know of one, but am sure there are more)...that you must be baptized to be saved, FV?


I agree and so does the church of christ! But I disagree with the way the church of christ act!They think that they are THE CHURCH! I disagree!

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