Hi to my Forum Friends,
Recently, my Forum Friend, LSTHOMPSON, sent me a PM. Our dialogue seemed, to me, to be relevant to all of our Forum Friends; so, I asked permission to share it. This is LS's response:
Thank you so very much for taking the time to answer these questions for me. It has helped me tremendously. Feel free to post on open Religion forum or your newsletter if you desire. I only addressed this privately initially because I wanted to get serious answers and no coarse joking about the matter and I knew that you would answer appropriately.
Obviously I have some concerns about what is going on right now and the things I am beginning to witness taking place in Churches today, all in the name of God. Unbelievers can't help but be confused. Again, I appreciate your help and continue to spread the Word as you are doing. I pray that you will feel better soon. May God continue to Bless you.
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Hi LS,
Thank you for your feedback and letting me know that there are folks like you who do find value in the writings we post on the Religion Forum. As you well know, many of the public responses tend to be more in the form of "thrown rocks" than in responses of encouragement, such as yours. Again, thank you.
I apologize for taking several days to respond. While I consider the posts on the open Forum to be important; I consider those questions sent via PMs to be of much higher importance since they are usually questions or thoughts which are heavy on a person's mind. Because of this, I feel more comfortable taking a wee bit longer to make sure that I have given the very best answer possible. Sometimes, such as in this instance, you may send a PM and not get a fast reply -- yet, still see me posting responses on the open Forum. This is because I do consider your PM questions to be of much higher importance and want to take more time to make sure I respond appropriately.
I have been sick for the past week and a half. I missed Bible study last Friday and will miss it again tonight because of this. The bad part about me missing Bible study -- is that I am the study leader. Sort of like the guy who kept telling his wife he did not feel like going to church -- and she kept telling him that he had to go to church. Finally, in frustration, he cried out, "Why?" -- and she sweetly replied, "Because you are the pastor."
LS, you ask me, "Good evening, Mr. Gray, I have been a faithful reader on the Religion Forum for some time now and I truly enjoy and am quite enlighten by a lot of your posts, as well as inspired. We seem to agree on a lot of subjects. But I have this dilemma and am searching for a true answer and you seem to be quite knowledgeable of the Word of God so I thought I might inquire of you, if you don't mind.
I read on one of your post where you commented on the gift of speaking in unknown language, but I can't remember exactly what you said at this moment. So, do you believe that the gifts of Speaking in Tongues and Prophesying ended with the death of the apostles and -- if so, what language are the people we hear in churches today speaking and how are they doing it if God doesn't allow this gift any longer."
In the Old Testament, prophets spoke the words given them by God, i.e, they were His human messengers sent to the His people, Israel. While the Israelites had scrolls of Scripture in those days; these were usually found in the temple and in the care of temple leaders. The common folks, such as you and me, did not have their own personal Bibles like we have today. In the Old Testament, God spoke through His prophets. Today, for the most part, He speaks to us through His Written Word, the Bible.
Are some people given revelations from God today? Yes, I would say it has happened to most all Christian believers at some time or another, even though we may not recognize it as a revelation from the Holy Spirit. However, these revelations do not make us prophets. My belief is that there are no longer prophets of God such as we find in the Old Testaments.
Scripture tells us of prophets: Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."
And, in 1 Corinthians 12:27-28, "Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues."
There is a down side to being a true prophet of God which most who call themselves "prophet" today will not address or just ignore because "that if the Old Testament." Yet, even though in much of the Old Testament God is speaking and acting upon the house of Israel -- the complete Bible is our revelation from God. If the Old Testament were to be ignored; Jesus would not have quoted it since He was here to institute the church of the New Testament.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22, "But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
In Ephesians 4:11 we are told, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers," Yet, we know there are no more "apostles" for we are told, in Acts 1:21-22, that to be an apostle the person must be one who walked with Jesus and the apostles. No one today can say that he walked personally with Jesus during His earthly ministry; therefore no one can be called an apostle. Paul was set aside differently because he did experience Jesus face to face and was made a special apostle by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus. No one today can claim either of these experiences. Thus, there are no apostles today.
The same applies to the office of prophets. This was a man or woman, chosen and sent personally by God, to "speak as God has commanded him" (Deuteronomy 18:18) -- and the penalty for being wrong was death. There are no such prophets today.
In Luke 16:16, Jesus told the Pharisees, "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the Gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."
Jesus is telling the Pharisees, and us, that John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet. From that time forward, the Gospel is to be preached.
Today, in my personal opinion, we have pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, and deacons -- but, the time of the apostles and prophets has passed. Yet, as I said earlier, we all do receive revelations from the Holy Spirit through our spirits. Those revelations can be teachings, encouragement, leading, and/or convictions when we are heading down a path God has not chosen for us.
Then, you ask, "Does the ability to have authority over the enemy and everything that Jesus stated in John 14 concerning (paraphrasing) greater works being done because He is going back to the Father -- apply only to the apostles and did that ability die with the apostles?"
Pastor David Guzik, director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, has written a good commentary note on this:
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John 14:12, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
a. "The works I do he will do": Jesus did not expect the disciples to disband after His departure, but to carry on the work in even greater magnitude.
b. "Greater works than these he will do": This promise seems impossible; yet after Peter's first sermon there were more converted (3000 souls) than are recorded during Jesus’ entire ministry. Greater is not "more sensational" but greater in magnitude. Jesus will leave behind a victorious, working church, not a cowering one.
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So, when you ask, "Does this apply only to the apostles and did that ability die with the apostles?
No, it did not die with the apostles. If we follow Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20, to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them -- and His command in Mark 16:15 and Acts 1:8, to be His witnesses in all the world -- we will be continuing the work that Jesus and the apostles began in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. And, we will be doing it in greater magnitude because there are now many millions of us doing the work He has given us -- that of sharing the Gospel with the unsaved.
John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
Is this our ticket for a new Rolls Royce, Mercedes, or Bentley -- our ticket to a mansion in Beverly Hills? There are Prosperity Theology pastors who will tell you that this is exactly what Jesus meant. One such pastor in Los Angeles said in his sermon, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." What he neglected to say is that his Rolls Royce is paid for "by his church" -- by the people sitting in his congregation or listening on radio or television who are wondering how they will pay their rent this month, after they send their tithing to him. No, this teaching must be viewed through the lens of the entire Bible.
Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, California, writes in his John 13-14 (C2000 Series) Commentary:
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John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
To whom is this broad promise of prayer made? To that man who first of all has denied himself. So, his prayer isn't going to be one for his own glory, for his own wealth, for his own enrichment. Jesus isn't saying here, "Just ask for a Cadillac, and I'll give you one. Ask for a Mercedes, ask anything, I'll give it to you!"
Mark 8:34, "And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.'"
No. "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself." And that's the first qualification to a man who has this broad promise.
Secondly, "let him take up his cross." By that, submitting himself totally to the will of the Father. "Not my will; Thy will be done." And that man who has totally submitted his life to the will of the Father, who has denied himself, who is following Jesus Christ, he has a glorious broad promise from the Lord, "Whatsoever you ask in My name, I will do it." Because whatever I am asking will be according to the will of God, because that's what I desire to see.
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Next, you ask, "This past weekend, I was in a worship experience where several members in the congregation proceeded to jump up and run around the sanctuary as example, I guess of being free; strongholds being broken, shackles loosed, and now they are free to run at ease.
Is there anything scriptural concerning this as being a way of worship? In God's Word, he says that speaking in an unknown language was for the unbeliever, so when an entire Church is speaking in tongues and there isn't an obvious interpreter and the Pastor does it as well, is this a form of false teaching and how exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher or false Prophet when everything else they do appear to be correct? I didn't say Biblically, correct because there is still a lot in the Bible I obviously have not read."
When you say, "In God's Word, he says that speaking in an unknown language was for the unbeliever. . ." -- you are referring to the Scripture passage: 1 Corinthians 14:22-23, "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy (is for a sign), not to unbelievers but to those who believe. Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"
I believe the point that Paul is making here is that, our main goal as Christian believers is to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved world, to the non-believer. And, if we drive them away with practices they see as weird, i.e., speaking in tongues, running and dancing around the sanctuary during the worship service, etc. -- how can we be a witness to them? So, it is best to conduct ourselves in a manner which is welcoming to those non-believers and unchurched -- that we may embrace them -- that they may eventually embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
You ask, "How exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher or false Prophet when everything else they do appear to be correct?"
First, you seek discernment from the Holy Spirit through prayer. Then, you do as the apostle Paul tells us of the Bereans, in Acts 17:11, ". . . examine the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."
A word of advise: When you listen to false teachers, in person or on television, make a list of the Scripture verses they quote and around which they preach -- then, when you have more time, examine those verses and passages to see if what they taught was really what the Bible teaches.
An example: Some years ago, my wife and I were watching a well known Prosperity Preacher on television. He was preaching on anointing oil -- and as he preached, Scripture verses would pop up on the screen. Since he was moving much too fast for me to check each one in real time -- I wrote them down and later reviewed each verse. I found that on 8 out of 10, he was correct. But, on the other two, he totally misrepresented the meaning of Scripture in his attempt to make it fit his message.
This is common to false teachers. Six, seven, or even eight out of ten will be right on. But, once they have lulled you into believing what they are saying -- they hit you with the zinger, the false teaching, and you buy it because he has been right eight times before.
If he is teaching a message which is not 100% Biblical; he is a false teacher. Now, here I must qualify my statement. We know that many times if you have ten people reading the same Scripture passage -- you will have eleven different interpretations. A person may be teaching a Scripture passage the way he understands it, which may or may not be right -- and still not be a false teacher; only a misinformed one.
When I speak of teaching something which is obviously not the meaning of Scripture; I am referring to people such as the Prosperity Preacher in Los Angeles who teaches, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." I noticed recently that this man has begun to wear a robe similar to what Roman Catholic cardinals wear; but his is green with red trim. This man is obviously exalting himself to the Pharisee level.
So, back to your questions, "How exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher?"
Prayer -- and following the advise of Acts 17:11 -- ". . .test what they teach against the full Written Word of God, the Bible."
Finally, you tell me, "These are just a few of the things I am struggling with right now and am in constant prayer concerning this, because as the days get closer to Jesus' return, those things that have an appearance of right are really wrong and wrong is really beginning to look right -- and I don't want to be misled nor mislead my family. I really appreciate any help you can present with these questions. Have a good evening!!!"
LS, I pray that the answers I have given you are sufficient. If not, I will be honored to continue our dialogue.
If you are comfortable with the idea, I can post our dialogue on the Religion Forum so that we can share our thoughts with all of our Forum Friends. But, if not, that is no problem. You posted this as a Private Message and I will always honor that. If you do feel comfortable with me sharing this on the Religion Forum and/or in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter, I can change your name to protect your privacy.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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