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A hypothetical question

Phoenix RisingPhoenix RisingPost Master
I posted this in another thread but it got lost in the discussion and I got no answers.

This question if for the pro-choice. If it was possible to screen a fetus and determine sexual orientation and based on this information a couple elected to abort their child rather than carrying it to term would you support that decision?
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Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
I posted this in another thread but it got lost in the discussion and I got no answers.

This question if for the pro-choice. If it was possible to screen a fetus and determine sexual orientation and based on this information a couple elected to abort their child rather than carrying it to term would you support that decision?


It's an interesting question PR, but, I think I will abstaine from responding.
Karl LeubaKarl LeubaPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
I posted this in another thread but it got lost in the discussion and I got no answers.

This question if for the pro-choice. If it was possible to screen a fetus and determine sexual orientation and based on this information a couple elected to abort their child rather than carrying it to term would you support that decision?
It is not just possible, but quite easy to determing the gender of a fetus. Amnioscentisis and sonograms both can do it, Amnioscentisis can do it early in pregnancy. It is being done regularly in China, and the ratio of Male to Female Babies is way out of whack. Normal ratio is 105 boys to 100 girls, in China the live birth ratio is nearly 130 to 100. It is a problem so severe that China prohibits the practice, but it continues. It is also possible to determine certain genetic birth defects with amnioscentisis.
Regarding the ethics and morality of the practice. I am not willing to fight for my position, so I will not state it.
Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
I posted this in another thread but it got lost in the discussion and I got no answers.

This question if for the pro-choice. If it was possible to screen a fetus and determine sexual orientation and based on this information a couple elected to abort their child rather than carrying it to term would you support that decision?
It is not just possible, but quite easy to determing the gender of a fetus. Amnioscentisis and sonograms both can do it, Amnioscentisis can do it early in pregnancy. It is being done regularly in China, and the ratio of Male to Female Babies is way out of whack. Normal ratio is 105 boys to 100 girls, in China the live birth ratio is nearly 130 to 100. It is a problem so severe that China prohibits the practice, but it continues. It is also possible to determine certain genetic birth defects with amnioscentisis.
Regarding the ethics and morality of the practice. I am not willing to fight for my position, so I will not state it.


????? Confused
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
It is not just possible, but quite easy to determing the gender of a fetus. Amnioscentisis and sonograms both can do it, Amnioscentisis can do it early in pregnancy. It is being done regularly in China, and the ratio of Male to Female Babies is way out of whack. Normal ratio is 105 boys to 100 girls, in China the live birth ratio is nearly 130 to 100. It is a problem so severe that China prohibits the practice, but it continues. It is also possible to determine certain genetic birth defects with amnioscentisis.
Regarding the ethics and morality of the practice. I am not willing to fight for my position, so I will not state it.


The question isn't about gender, it's sexual orientation.

For the real question, I think it would be simply unethical. Although I don't think we should make abortion illegal, using abortion as a form of birth control or selective breeding is simply wrong. So if it was possible to tell a sexual orientation of a fetus, which I don't believe is nor ever will be possible, it would be completely immoral to end a life for that reason.
Phoenix RisingPhoenix RisingPost Master
Okay lets say you and your wife found out you were going to have a child with a mental condition. You and your wife decide that it would be better to terminate the pregnancy rather than have the child and watch as it suffers and is never able to live a complete life (as you deem it). What Pro-Choice person wouldn't understand this position.

Now lets say the couple that terminated the homosexual fetus looked at it the same way. The child would be ridiculed growing up, wouldn't fit in, wouldn't grow to have a healthy heterosexual relationship complete with offspring. In short the child wouldn't live a complete life as they deem a complete life. Are they not acting with compassion in terminating this fetus?
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Okay lets say you and your wife found out you were going to have a child with a mental condition. You and your wife decide that it would be better to terminate the pregnancy rather than have the child and watch as it suffers and is never able to live a complete life (as you deem it). What Pro-Choice person wouldn't understand this position.

Now lets say the couple that terminated the homosexual fetus looked at it the same way. The child would be ridiculed growing up, wouldn't fit in, wouldn't grow to have a healthy heterosexual relationship complete with offspring. In short the child wouldn't live a complete life as they deem a complete life. Are they not acting with compassion in terminating this fetus?


What gives parents the right to determine if a person lives or dies? Just because someone is mentally challenged doesn't mean they'll live a horrible life. How many parents of mentally handicapped people do you think wish they could have aborted their child years ago? I don't think that many.

It's not our judgement to determine someone else's life for them. Who hasn't been ridiculed as a kid, learning to stand up for yourself is just part of growing up. Life isn't all rainbows & roses, it's hard and challenging for everyone. To kill someone simply because they might not be perfect is simply a horrible thing.
S smurphPost Master
FI i agree, AND, with taking that into consideration is one of the many reasons I believe much is a lifestyle of choice. i simply am not convinced there are THAT many gays just born.

sorry bout the rant, okay to the question. I for myself would never have the test(if it were possible). I did not even want to know the sex of my child before his birth.So aborting the fetus would not even be a subject
Karl LeubaKarl LeubaPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
It is not just possible, but quite easy to determing the gender of a fetus. Amnioscentisis and sonograms both can do it, Amnioscentisis can do it early in pregnancy. It is being done regularly in China, and the ratio of Male to Female Babies is way out of whack. Normal ratio is 105 boys to 100 girls, in China the live birth ratio is nearly 130 to 100. It is a problem so severe that China prohibits the practice, but it continues. It is also possible to determine certain genetic birth defects with amnioscentisis.
Regarding the ethics and morality of the practice. I am not willing to fight for my position, so I will not state it.


The question isn't about gender, it's sexual orientation.

For the real question, I think it would be simply unethical. Although I don't think we should make abortion illegal, using abortion as a form of birth control or selective breeding is simply wrong. So if it was possible to tell a sexual orientation of a fetus, which I don't believe is nor ever will be possible, it would be completely immoral to end a life for that reason.
Like I said, I would not be willing to force you to accept my position with legislation, so I will not champion it. Even if the question is hypothetical. I would like to think that a gay child, born to a homophobic parent, would be raised in such a way that he could attain his full potential and live a satisfying life.
Phoenix RisingPhoenix RisingPost Master
Ah but can you not wish to raise a homosexual child and not be homophobic? What if you look at it that lifestyle as form of suffering? What if you know you won't be able to afford 2 kids and want a straight male to carry on the family name? That isn't homophobic is it? If you are pro choice don't you believe we all should have the option of selecting which fetus we allow to develop.

After all isn't it just a fetus and terminating it no different from killing a spider in the bathroom? Why should it matter what influences the decision to terminate it?

David L. I'm just using homosexuality for the example - no harm intended towards you or Tom Cruise. Smiler
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Fighting Illini:
Most parents are straight, even if their child is gay. So, therefore, they would probably have some homophobic feelings, due to their unfamiliarity of being around homosexuals.


There are a lot of straight couples who have gay friends (the majority of my friends are straight) and I can't imagine them being homophobic.
Fighting IlliniFighting IlliniHall of Famer
It depends on your circle of friends. I have come across a few gay people that I would consider acquaintances. However, in all honesty, I really don't know of any gays that I hang around with on a consistent basis. I think it's like any kind of group. Those with similarities tend to hang out with each other more.

I think the reason the majority of your firends are straight is because the majority of people in this world are straight as well.
Phoenix RisingPhoenix RisingPost Master
quote:
There are a lot of straight couples who have gay friends (the majority of my friends are straight) and I can't imagine them being homophobic.


Ask them if they would prefer to have heterosexual children and I would imagine they would say yes. Its not homophobia. People want children that are similar to them. If the couple is Caucasian chances are they would prefer any child born by their union to be Caucasian as well.
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
quote:
There are a lot of straight couples who have gay friends (the majority of my friends are straight) and I can't imagine them being homophobic.


Ask them if they would prefer to have heterosexual children and I would imagine they would say yes. Its not homophobia. People want children that are similar to them. If the couple is Caucasian chances are they would prefer any child born by their union to be Caucasian as well.


Yes, I can agree with that.
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Fighting Illini:
It depends on your circle of friends. I have come across a few gay people that I would consider acquaintances. However, in all honesty, I really don't know of any gays that I hang around with on a consistent basis. I think it's like any kind of group. Those with similarities tend to hang out with each other more.

I think the reason the majority of your firends are straight is because the majority of people in this world are straight as well.


Uh, never mind! Roll Eyes
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
1. I do not believe in abortion for any reason. Birth control, or not having sex at all, should have been considered FIRST before a couple have fun and don't want children.

2. Being anti-gay is not "bigoted" or "closed minded". IF so, then Christianity, and most other religions, would be outlawed. Christians do not condone the act, and so states it in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

I leave it at that (and put my helmet on for the incoming that is surely to come).
Y yankeegrammaPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
1. I do not believe in abortion for any reason. Birth control, or not having sex at all, should have been considered FIRST before a couple have fun and don't want children.

2. Being anti-gay is not "bigoted" or "closed minded". IF so, then Christianity, and most other religions, would be outlawed. Christians do not condone the act, and so states it in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

I leave it at that (and put my helmet on for the incoming that is surely to come).


Hopeless,closed and rusted shut!
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:

Hopeless,closed and rusted shut!


Oh, well...I guess the majority of America are bigots, racists, and homophobes....as they are not gay. And I suppose 95%+ of the Christians in America are the same, too.

Do you celebrate Christmas????? If so, why? It is a racist, bigoted, and homophobic religion you know!!
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:
I am not gay,not a bigot,not racist. I do try my best to accept everyone as they are.I just don't like people putting other people down all the time.This is just a question,Brentenman,do you think Jesus would have hated these people or embraced them with love?


Jesus would have spoken to them, and told them their lifestyle is unacceptable. He told us to embrace the sinners (in fact, he ate with them). However, he did not condone their acts. That is the point Jesus Christ is trying to get: love all, but do not condone the sinful acts.
He DID tell his disciples to got out and preach the Gospel, Word, etc. If they do not accept you, then go to the edge of the town, and beat the dust off the soles of your shoes and move on to the next one.
logicallogicalHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:
I am not gay,not a bigot,not racist. I do try my best to accept everyone as they are.I just don't like people putting other people down all the time.This is just a question,Brentenman,do you think Jesus would have hated these people or embraced them with love?


Jesus would have spoken to them, and told them their lifestyle is unacceptable. He told us to embrace the sinners (in fact, he ate with them). However, he did not condone their acts. That is the point Jesus Christ is trying to get: love all, but do not condone the sinful acts.
He DID tell his disciples to got out and preach the Gospel, Word, etc. If they do not accept you, then go to the edge of the town, and beat the dust off the soles of your shoes and move on to the next one.


And so you believe, but I do not. Why? Because Jesus would understand why they are that way, while you do not. God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice.

What would Jesus say to a person with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) who is married to a man? married to a woman? Jesus would welcome them, not condemn them.

A person with CAIS is genetically male with testes (undescended), no uterus, no ovaries, no cervix, but externally completely female with a normal vagina and breasts although with little to no body hair.
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by logical:
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:
I am not gay,not a bigot,not racist. I do try my best to accept everyone as they are.I just don't like people putting other people down all the time.This is just a question,Brentenman,do you think Jesus would have hated these people or embraced them with love?


Jesus would have spoken to them, and told them their lifestyle is unacceptable. He told us to embrace the sinners (in fact, he ate with them). However, he did not condone their acts. That is the point Jesus Christ is trying to get: love all, but do not condone the sinful acts.
He DID tell his disciples to got out and preach the Gospel, Word, etc. If they do not accept you, then go to the edge of the town, and beat the dust off the soles of your shoes and move on to the next one.


And so you believe, but I do not. Why? Because Jesus would understand why they are that way, while you do not. God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice.

What would Jesus say to a person with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) who is married to a man? married to a woman? Jesus would welcome them, not condemn them.

A person with CAIS is genetically male with testes (undescended), no uterus, no ovaries, no cervix, but externally completely female with a normal vagina and breasts although with little to no body hair.


That person is born that way, a birth defect. The homosexual lifestyle is a choice. If it was not a choice, I think it would have been talked about, even in the Bible. In fact, if God intended for it to be natural, I don't think he would have made man and woman. Second only man and woman together can produce a child (turkey basters and other means are not natural, and only started in the late 20th century). I have yet to see independent scientific proof of it being a "born" trait. If you have an independent source, please post it for all to read. Kook, leftist, pro-gay sites do not count. Only independent, non-political true scientific sites, please.
logicallogicalHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:

That person is born that way, a birth defect. The homosexual lifestyle is a choice. If it was not a choice, I think it would have been talked about, even in the Bible. In fact, if God intended for it to be natural, I don't think he would have made man and woman. Second only man and woman together can produce a child (turkey basters and other means are not natural, and only started in the late 20th century). I have yet to see independent scientific proof of it being a "born" trait. If you have an independent source, please post it for all to read. Kook, leftist, pro-gay sites do not count. Only independent, non-political true scientific sites, please.


You have an amazing capacity to ignore how the world really is. Luckily, God doesn't have that problem.

Gay *is* natural. Why? Because it is simply one of the many results of gestation. Did God set out to create gay people? No, not any more than He set out to create people with Kleinfelter's Syndrome, or CAIS, or PAIS, or any of the many other non normative male/female conditions. Most of those conditions are not talked about either, but they have certainly existed as long as humans have been having babies. Do you consider everyone who doesn't fit the normal male/female condition not natural?

I have asked about the CAIS person numerous times and you never, ever address the issue that they represent. Why is that? They are a perfect example of why your argument is bogus.

Where do they fit into your neat little man and woman world since they are distinctly and unambiguously part of both. Who can they love without it being considered a sin?
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:
I am not gay,not a bigot,not racist. I do try my best to accept everyone as they are.I just don't like people putting other people down all the time.This is just a question,Brentenman,do you think Jesus would have hated these people or embraced them with love?


Jesus would have spoken to them, and told them their lifestyle is unacceptable. He told us to embrace the sinners (in fact, he ate with them). However, he did not condone their acts. That is the point Jesus Christ is trying to get: love all, but do not condone the sinful acts.
He DID tell his disciples to got out and preach the Gospel, Word, etc. If they do not accept you, then go to the edge of the town, and beat the dust off the soles of your shoes and move on to the next one.


Didn't he also say THOU SHALT NOT KILL? Isn't that what you are making a career our of - training to go overseas and blow people to smitereens?

It's all "pick and choose" when it comes to religion!
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
I posted this in another thread but it got lost in the discussion and I got no answers.

This question if for the pro-choice. If it was possible to screen a fetus and determine sexual orientation and based on this information a couple elected to abort their child rather than carrying it to term would you support that decision?



First of all, you are confusing pro-choice as pro-abortion, that is NOT the case, as you have been told over and over and over again by so many people here... AND you are further confusing the fact that people cannot detect any sort of 'sexual preferences" from the womb, so moot point. I do not know of one single person who HYPOTHETICALLY speaking would abort a healthy child just BECAUSE there MIGHT be a chance there is a sexual orientation question. That is just crazy!!!!

Let me give YOU a hypothetical question.... WHAT ARE YOU, as a citizen of America, GOING TO DO ABOUT THE ABORTION LAWS?????? How are YOU, as an American Citizen going to CHANGE them????

And finally, WHO the heck are YOU to tell ANYONE what they CAN and CANNOT do with their bodies... That is between ONLY THEM and GOD!!!

Otherwise, you just sit back in your easy chair, doing NOTHING, but SAYING a lot, and pretty soon, no one will be listening.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
Please keep in mind that you brought this up, logical, when you said "God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10
"the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"

The word "homosexuality" is "ajrsenokoivth", from the Greek the meaning is " one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual".

Those are two examples, but there are plenty of others. If you do not believe God's Word is truth, that's your choice. But if you do believe it is truth, please understand that God is very straightforward on this subject.
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Please keep in mind that you brought this up, logical, when you said "God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10
"the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"

The word "homosexuality" is "ajrsenokoivth", from the Greek the meaning is " one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual".

Those are two examples, but there are plenty of others. If you do not believe God's Word is truth, that's your choice. But if you do believe it is truth, please understand that God is very straightforward on this subject.


I don't know what Bible you are reading but I think you have taken liberties with those quotes.
Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Please keep in mind that you brought this up, logical, when you said "God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10
"the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"

The word "homosexuality" is "ajrsenokoivth", from the Greek the meaning is " one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual".

Those are two examples, but there are plenty of others. If you do not believe God's Word is truth, that's your choice. But if you do believe it is truth, please understand that God is very straightforward on this subject.


I don't know what Bible you are reading but I think you have taken liberties with those quotes.


I don't know the bible that well myself David. I did look up the quotes on google though. Joy has quoted them acurately.
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Please keep in mind that you brought this up, logical, when you said "God understands his creation because he made it. Being gay is not a choice."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10
"the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"

The word "homosexuality" is "ajrsenokoivth", from the Greek the meaning is " one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual".

Those are two examples, but there are plenty of others. If you do not believe God's Word is truth, that's your choice. But if you do believe it is truth, please understand that God is very straightforward on this subject.


I don't know what Bible you are reading but I think you have taken liberties with those quotes.


I don't know the bible that well myself David. I did look up the quotes on google though. Joy has quoted them acurately.


The word "homosexuality" as well as some of the others that she used do not appear in the Bible.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
David, you are probably looking at a specific translation. I look at the original & the meaning of the original when I am researching a subject. Different translations translate the word differently but the original text, the original Greek word means "one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual". Do you get what I am saying? By that, I mean am I conveying it well enough to get it?
David L.David L.Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
David, you are probably looking at a specific translation. I look at the original & the meaning of the original when I am researching a subject. Different translations translate the word differently but the original text, the original Greek word means "one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual". Do you get what I am saying?


Yeah, that is the problem with the Bible and people who elect to follow a book instead of their own heart. What do you do - just select the one that has the translation you like the best? It is all a big joke.
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