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1. Withdraw troops from Iraq

2. Trim the military budget and others to provide for funding and grants to businesses willing to work on our infrastructure

3. Use trimmed money for an overhaul of our infrastructure High Speed rail systems, updated telecommunications connections, fix the interstates and highways

4. Through this private companies can then spurn technological advances just like we used to.

A high speed rail system would be beneficial to all of america, remove a good bit of our dependence on foreign oil and generate a great deal of work for the people that are unemployed.

Telecommunications would boost our status as having some of the worst internet connection speeds of the first world countries, and would benefit all of us (think google's gigabit internet project)

Using the Corps of engineers to fix our ailing roadways sounds like a good idea.

Finally an overhaul of our electrical grid, in order to be more efficient than it already is, with an emphasis on nuclear power and fusion research (Why should britain be one of the few places with an actual (somewhat) functioning fusion lab)

America could become the leader in technology like we once were if people would just demand that we focus more on our national infrastructure and telecommunications structure
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OK, I get pulling our troops from everywhere and bringing them home, but how is "trimming our military budget" going to help when terrorists still want America demolished? What about the jobs and the resources that trimming that budget will cost our armed forces that depend on their jobs? We have to have security and our Armed Forces are not taken care of near as well they need to be by our Federal Government.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
1. Withdraw troops from Iraq

2. Trim the military budget and others to provide for funding and grants to businesses willing to work on our infrastructure

3. Use trimmed money for an overhaul of our infrastructure High Speed rail systems, updated telecommunications connections, fix the interstates and highways

4. Through this private companies can then spurn technological advances just like we used to.

A high speed rail system would be beneficial to all of america, remove a good bit of our dependence on foreign oil and generate a great deal of work for the people that are unemployed.

Telecommunications would boost our status as having some of the worst internet connection speeds of the first world countries, and would benefit all of us (think google's gigabit internet project)

Using the Corps of engineers to fix our ailing roadways sounds like a good idea.

Finally an overhaul of our electrical grid, in order to be more efficient than it already is, with an emphasis on nuclear power and fusion research (Why should britain be one of the few places with an actual (somewhat) functioning fusion lab)

America could become the leader in technology like we once were if people would just demand that we focus more on our national infrastructure and telecommunications structure


Typical lib. Cut national defense and leave welfare alone. Social spending is greater than military spending.
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
OK, I get pulling our troops from everywhere and bringing them home, but how is "trimming our military budget" going to help when terrorists still want America demolished? What about the jobs and the resources that trimming that budget will cost our armed forces that depend on their jobs? We have to have security and our Armed Forces are not taken care of near as well they need to be by our Federal Government.


So you support the billions spent on V-22 Turkey... I mean Osprey. Or how about the money spent on OICW and the XM8 both failed military rifles. Or the terrible digital camouflage pattern that is currently used by the army (being phased out now for troops going to afghanistan), when the ACU pattern wasn't even deemed the best pattern by the Natick research? Or the F22 raptor when we already have the BEST FIGHTER ATTACK PLANE IN THE WORLD. If the military is going to spend billions of dollars on these things there had better be something to show for it and there had also better be a use for it. More people employed also means less people on welfare might I add.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
1. Withdraw troops from Iraq

2. Trim the military budget and others to provide for funding and grants to businesses willing to work on our infrastructure

3. Use trimmed money for an overhaul of our infrastructure High Speed rail systems, updated telecommunications connections, fix the interstates and highways

4. Through this private companies can then spurn technological advances just like we used to.

A high speed rail system would be beneficial to all of america, remove a good bit of our dependence on foreign oil and generate a great deal of work for the people that are unemployed.

Telecommunications would boost our status as having some of the worst internet connection speeds of the first world countries, and would benefit all of us (think google's gigabit internet project)

Using the Corps of engineers to fix our ailing roadways sounds like a good idea.

Finally an overhaul of our electrical grid, in order to be more efficient than it already is, with an emphasis on nuclear power and fusion research (Why should britain be one of the few places with an actual (somewhat) functioning fusion lab)

America could become the leader in technology like we once were if people would just demand that we focus more on our national infrastructure and telecommunications structure


Caduceus,
These forums are NOT the appropriate place for new and engaging ideas. Please limit all comments to Obama/Democrat bashing while ardently expressing a desire for a return to the "Good Ole Bush/Republican Days".

Thank you and have a nice day Wink
Yes defense spending needs to be cut...along with most everything else. Our deficit this year is $1,555 billion (or $1.555 trillion or $1,555,000,000,000). Our military spending is about $900 billion. We could slash our defense spending by 90% and still be $700 billion in the hole. We're so far in the hole now we'll never pay back what we owe. We'll end up having to default. Whether we spend borrowed money on missiles, trains, or social programs, we still must pay it back. Right now we spend more money on interest than we do on education, and it's gonna get a lot worse. While spending borrowed money on anything other than defense will make some feel better, that's about all it will do. We'll have that warm, fuzzy feeling when our debtors get here.

Govt. spending
quote:
Originally posted by Pigheaded:

Caduceus,
These forums are NOT the appropriate place for new and engaging ideas. Please limit all comments to Obama/Democrat bashing while ardently expressing a desire for a return to the "Good Ole Bush/Republican Days".

Thank you and have a nice day Wink


I sure wouldn't revel in an endorsement from pigbrain. It's like getting an intelligence acknowledgment from that dingbat albert gore. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
OK, I get pulling our troops from everywhere and bringing them home, but how is "trimming our military budget" going to help when terrorists still want America demolished? What about the jobs and the resources that trimming that budget will cost our armed forces that depend on their jobs? We have to have security and our Armed Forces are not taken care of near as well they need to be by our Federal Government.


So you support the billions spent on V-22 Turkey... I mean Osprey. Or how about the money spent on OICW and the XM8 both failed military rifles. Or the terrible digital camouflage pattern that is currently used by the army (being phased out now for troops going to afghanistan), when the ACU pattern wasn't even deemed the best pattern by the Natick research? Or the F22 raptor when we already have the BEST FIGHTER ATTACK PLANE IN THE WORLD. If the military is going to spend billions of dollars on these things there had better be something to show for it and there had also better be a use for it. More people employed also means less people on welfare might I add.


You couldn't get those welfare bums to take a job if you put a gun to their heads. Roll Eyes
Caduceus, cutting the defense budget to the bone might sound reasonable without reviewing the history of the 1930's. When the world's democracies were self-involved with their own economic problems, the dictators were on the march. Do you actually believe the warlords and terrorists of today will behave? In the end we might get to full employment the same way FDR did in the 1940's with a real war and we might have full employment afterward doing major urban renewal as the Europeans and Japanese did after the second world war.

quote:
Barack Obama is trying to end a recession and spark a recovery by the highly dubious means of shoveling vast amounts of federal dollars into domestic spending. He is consciously trying to mimic FDR and the New Deal. There is only one problem with this: FDR's New Deal was an economic failure. Roosevelt tried a variety of different projects, programs, and spending to get us out of the Great Depression. Some of those, like the National Recovery Administration, were quite consciously modeled after the policies of Fascist Italy. Yet four years after Roosevelt took office, the economy was in worse shape than when he was elected.

The Depression ended, but how? As Hitler grew more menacing in Europe, as Mussolini conquered Ethiopia, as Japan invaded China, as Stalin began to view the Baltic States and Finland with quiet lust, civilized nations like France and Britain began to rearm. In September 1939, when war broke out in Europe, the western democracies began to place huge orders with the United States. The Second World War brought us out of the Depression.
http://www.enterstageright.com...9endrecessionfdr.htm
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
Yes defense spending needs to be cut...along with most everything else. Our deficit this year is $1,555 billion (or $1.555 trillion or $1,555,000,000,000). Our military spending is about $900 billion. We could slash our defense spending by 90% and still be $700 billion in the hole. We're so far in the hole now we'll never pay back what we owe. We'll end up having to default. Whether we spend borrowed money on missiles, trains, or social programs, we still must pay it back. Right now we spend more money on interest than we do on education, and it's gonna get a lot worse. While spending borrowed money on anything other than defense will make some feel better, that's about all it will do. We'll have that warm, fuzzy feeling when our debtors get here.

Govt. spending


You get the "Most sensible post in this thread" award.
What people don't realize is we are about to pull the dirt in on us with the spending we are doing. Soon, the Fed will be forced to raise interest rastes to keep the bond market afloat.
If interest rates go as high as the late 70's, it will take ALL the current income on taxes to pay the interest alone.

Effectively, the government will be bankrupt. No Social Security cheecks, no disability checks, no food stamps, no healthcare, no welfare, no money to Wall Street... Well you get the idea.
"1. Withdraw troops from Iraq"
______________________________________________
That would save a small amount, overall. However, no one in the mideast would ever trust out word again. Think oil is high, now! We are proceeding in a slow, steady withdrawal, favorable to us and the Iraqis.
______________________________________________________________________________
"2. Trim the military budget and others to provide for funding and grants to businesses willing to work on our infrastructure"
__________________________________________________________________________
There are places to trim the military budget, but not to the hundreds of billions needed. Without
a navy to ensure freedom of the seas and trade, out industries would suffer. Think Somali pirates, writ large.

As to infrastructure, what happened to the $787 billion marked for shovel ready projects? The
democrats diverted the money to political projects. Military contractors like KBR are pikers
compared to that.
_____________________________________________________________________

"3. Use trimmed money for an overhaul of our infrastructure High Speed rail systems, updated telecommunications connections, fix the interstates and highways."
___________________________________________________________________

High speed rail is a money loser. France's TVG is still taxpayer supported and wouldn't exist
except for tourists. I lived there for 15 months, I know of what I speak. If, your must build high speed rail, do it for short commuter lines in DC, Chi-town, NYC, etc.From phones to the internet, private business installed out communications. Why make the taxpayer foot the bill.
The fund for interstate and highway construction, funded by fuel taxes, is available. For further
infrastructure construction, see answer to 2, above.
_____________________________________________________________________________

"4. Through this private companies can then spurn technological advances just like we used to."
__________________________________________________________________________
Government was a player in that, but not the major contributor.
Well right now our telecommunications industry is stagnating. Why is it that one of the most advanced nations on earth has one of the worst internet standards of all the first world countries. And it's not a small difference either, we are talking 100s of times of difference.

It's obvious that the telecom companies won't do anything as long as they continue to make money. So how do we stop the stagnation? I'm sure you have heard of the "last mile" in DSL connections. We sit here while the rest of the world is passing us by in innovations.

All you have to do is simply look at Japan and South Korea. Both are countries with ultra-high speed connections and high speed cellular connection. While I realize that those are both small countries, if there is anywhere large that would be able to achieve that level of technology through ingenuity and innovation, it's America.

My thinking is that if the government does a small part of this work, that it would serve as a proof of concept to private companies. Even the internet is a direct result of the government. I'm not saying that the government should do everything, but at least a small part to show corporations what they are missing out on.
Our Air Force fetish is ludicrous. Give it back to the Army, I say. Moratorium on new planes, concentrate on renovating the ones we have now.

Moratorium on all capital ships construction for five years at least. They are not going to rust.

Moratorium on ag subsidies, one of the biggest ripoffs to the American public there is! Why let a small hereditary caste of megafarmers continue on their gold lust.

Nuclear weps moratorium. Who are we kidding with the "missile gap" theory?

Who cares what the people of the Middle East think: the vast majority will still buy our oil and try to emigrate here, Canada, Australia, NZ, or the EU. They need our oil being bought as much as we with our internal combustion and highly enriched fertilizer fetishes do their oil.

Taxes to the point of it hurting while on austerity budgets for a couple of years -- hey, it was good enough for two World Wars wasn't it? This is, except for Vietnam and Korea the only wars where taxes were cut. That is ludicrous, as during the Vietnam/Korea Era, we were at our peak capacity of production and could afford to play the war game without impunity.

Let the states take a good long hard look at reality, especially the no income tax and slim-to-nominal property states and see if it is sane or not? That means you, too, Most Serene Republic of Alabama.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONG'S. ALL THIS IS GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT. HE DID ANYTHING HE, AND HIS CROOKED FRIEND'S WANTED TO. IT DIDN'T MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THOUGHT. HE STOLE THE ELECTION, AND AFTER THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE. I DON'T HEAR ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT ALL THE CRAP HE DID. OBAMA IS SO MUCH SMARTER THAN DUMB BUSH, SO SIT BACK, AND ENJOY THE RIDE. I HOPE YOUR AS MISERABLE AS WE WERE WHEN STUPID WAS IN OFFICE.
quote:
Originally posted by PKROUSE:
MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONG'S. ALL THIS IS GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT. HE DID ANYTHING HE, AND HIS CROOKED FRIEND'S WANTED TO. IT DIDN'T MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THOUGHT. HE STOLE THE ELECTION, AND AFTER THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE. I DON'T HEAR ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT ALL THE CRAP HE DID. OBAMA IS SO MUCH SMARTER THAN DUMB BUSH, SO SIT BACK, AND ENJOY THE RIDE. I HOPE YOUR AS MISERABLE AS WE WERE WHEN STUPID WAS IN OFFICE.


First... Caps lock, 3/16ths of an inch to not sound stupid. Next grammar, fix it. Third, while I didn't support George Bush, not only does this contribute nothing to the topic, but it is also pretty senseless considering nothing will come of your accusations. And also there are about to 4 people on here that wont tear you a new one for that. Unless of course you are trolling, in which case, carry on I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
Well right now our telecommunications industry is stagnating. Why is it that one of the most advanced nations on earth has one of the worst internet standards of all the first world countries. And it's not a small difference either, we are talking 100s of times of difference.

It's obvious that the telecom companies won't do anything as long as they continue to make money. So how do we stop the stagnation? I'm sure you have heard of the "last mile" in DSL connections. We sit here while the rest of the world is passing us by in innovations.

All you have to do is simply look at Japan and South Korea. Both are countries with ultra-high speed connections and high speed cellular connection. While I realize that those are both small countries, if there is anywhere large that would be able to achieve that level of technology through ingenuity and innovation, it's America.

My thinking is that if the government does a small part of this work, that it would serve as a proof of concept to private companies. Even the internet is a direct result of the government. I'm not saying that the government should do everything, but at least a small part to show corporations what they are missing out on.


South Korea is a compact nation. The blue train traverses it in 3.5 hours. Japan's government deficit is 212 percent of GDP. I really don't wish to repeat that. The invention of the internet is a DOD innovation. Trying to force a solution upon the nation by government fiat usually results in costly mistakes. The first transcontinental railway was government supported and went bankrupt. The one built with private funds succeeded.
Well when you look at Bellsouth taking the easy way out of their "provide DSL for everyone" through terrible satellite internet, I don't exactly see how we will ever reach the gigabit bandwith speeds and fiber optic connections that other nations enjoy. And I also have to add that at some point something is going to have to be done about our aging interstate system.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
1. Withdraw troops from Iraq

2. Trim the military budget and others to provide for funding and grants to businesses willing to work on our infrastructure

3. Use trimmed money for an overhaul of our infrastructure High Speed rail systems, updated telecommunications connections, fix the interstates and highways

4. Through this private companies can then spurn technological advances just like we used to.

A high speed rail system would be beneficial to all of america, remove a good bit of our dependence on foreign oil and generate a great deal of work for the people that are unemployed.

Telecommunications would boost our status as having some of the worst internet connection speeds of the first world countries, and would benefit all of us (think google's gigabit internet project)

Using the Corps of engineers to fix our ailing roadways sounds like a good idea.

Finally an overhaul of our electrical grid, in order to be more efficient than it already is, with an emphasis on nuclear power and fusion research (Why should britain be one of the few places with an actual (somewhat) functioning fusion lab)

America could become the leader in technology like we once were if people would just demand that we focus more on our national infrastructure and telecommunications structure


This sensible plan of yours sounds vaguely familiar---------- now I remember, Obama campaigned on such a platform.
Sounds good to me.
BTW Eastside, he didn't say Pull our troops out of everywhere, he said Iraq. Although, I personally believe we should get the hell out of most everywhere, we should have never gone into Iraq in the first place, and should get out asap. Before it is all over, we will spend about 2 Trillion dollars on Bush's little war in Iraq with no positive endgame. (BTW, there are a lot of people whooping and hollering about the cost of health care which IF we covered every single American would cost less than the Iraq invasion and occupation) Where were these people when this all started :?
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Our Air Force fetish is ludicrous. Give it back to the Army, I say. Moratorium on new planes, concentrate on renovating the ones we have now.

Moratorium on all capital ships construction for five years at least. They are not going to rust.

Moratorium on ag subsidies, one of the biggest ripoffs to the American public there is! Why let a small hereditary caste of megafarmers continue on their gold lust.

Nuclear weps moratorium. Who are we kidding with the "missile gap" theory?

Who cares what the people of the Middle East think: the vast majority will still buy our oil and try to emigrate here, Canada, Australia, NZ, or the EU. They need our oil being bought as much as we with our internal combustion and highly enriched fertilizer fetishes do their oil.

Taxes to the point of it hurting while on austerity budgets for a couple of years -- hey, it was good enough for two World Wars wasn't it? This is, except for Vietnam and Korea the only wars where taxes were cut. That is ludicrous, as during the Vietnam/Korea Era, we were at our peak capacity of production and could afford to play the war game without impunity.

Let the states take a good long hard look at reality, especially the no income tax and slim-to-nominal property states and see if it is sane or not? That means you, too, Most Serene Republic of Alabama.


In what way is our air force ludicrous. Its existence is a force multiplier and its existence saved lives in combat since WWII.

The navy is on a death spiral to about 281 ships. During the cold war we had about 580. And, yes, they do rust, and quickly. Even with the newer primer, its a constant battle to keep a ship rust free.

Agreed on the agriculture subsidies. They go to corporate farms at the expense of small farms. End them!

We buy oil, they don't buy ours. Without the fertilizers, crop output would drop precipitously. As the largest manufacturing nation in the world, we need to keep sea lanes open for oil and our products.

Its spending that's out of control. Taxing to diminishing returns makes no sense. Over taxing income results in less for investment in businesses. Reagan's tax cuts resulted in revenue increase from $500 billion to $1 trillion.
Air Force fetish is what I wrote. I refer to the huge cost over runs of new models that are already 10 years old if not more! The AF never met an aircraft it did not love and claim to obtain and then say it is "outmoded."

Why do you infer that a capital ship freeze would be permanent? I know that ships rust. It was called hyperbole. I also know that the USN is not squalling for any new ships like the Boeing/Lockheed crowd over at Colorado Springs.

Once again, I wrote "fetish" about fertilizers. I did not advocating abandoning them.

Longue duree analysis of Reaganomics may (and probably already does) prove to have been the root of the mess we are in now: cut taxes, spend, rinse, repeat, deregulate the foxes who swear they will guard the hens, rinse, repeat.

Finally, when was the last time anyone hyper-wealthy invested in the US economy other than to have a new ski lodge built or to visit their assets in Honduras/Mexico/Bangladesh? Give me a break!

Reinvesting in the US? That violates the very spirit of free trade cum what human rights abuses in my plants rugged individualist capitalist, doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
OK, I get pulling our troops from everywhere and bringing them home, but how is "trimming our military budget" going to help when terrorists still want America demolished? What about the jobs and the resources that trimming that budget will cost our armed forces that depend on their jobs? We have to have security and our Armed Forces are not taken care of near as well they need to be by our Federal Government.


So you support the billions spent on V-22 Turkey... I mean Osprey. Or how about the money spent on OICW and the XM8 both failed military rifles. Or the terrible digital camouflage pattern that is currently used by the army (being phased out now for troops going to afghanistan), when the ACU pattern wasn't even deemed the best pattern by the Natick research? Or the F22 raptor when we already have the BEST FIGHTER ATTACK PLANE IN THE WORLD. If the military is going to spend billions of dollars on these things there had better be something to show for it and there had also better be a use for it. More people employed also means less people on welfare might I add.


Revitalize and reprioritize the budget for military spending -- yes. Cut funding -- No.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
Why is it that one of the most advanced nations on earth has one of the worst internet standards of all the first world countries.



Politics always plays a role in anything like this so I have no doubt that our own government i sabotaging our advancements with kickbacks and restrictions and taxes etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Caduceus:
quote:
Originally posted by PKROUSE:
MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONG'S. ALL THIS IS GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT. HE DID ANYTHING HE, AND HIS CROOKED FRIEND'S WANTED TO. IT DIDN'T MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THOUGHT. HE STOLE THE ELECTION, AND AFTER THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE. I DON'T HEAR ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT ALL THE CRAP HE DID. OBAMA IS SO MUCH SMARTER THAN DUMB BUSH, SO SIT BACK, AND ENJOY THE RIDE. I HOPE YOUR AS MISERABLE AS WE WERE WHEN STUPID WAS IN OFFICE.


First... Caps lock, 3/16ths of an inch to not sound stupid. Next grammar, fix it. Third, while I didn't support George Bush, not only does this contribute nothing to the topic, but it is also pretty senseless considering nothing will come of your accusations. And also there are about to 4 people on here that wont tear you a new one for that. Unless of course you are trolling, in which case, carry on I guess.


Why thank ye, C. Couldna said it better meself. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by mad American:
And the reason we have the best fighter plane in the world is that we never stopped trying to improve. If we stop someone will catch up or pass us. I guess that is the goal of obamaites, to be equal instead of greater.


Who's going to catch up?

Look nobody wants to leave the US defensless...but government spending is way out of hand...and that government spending includes the defense budget.

Obama’s total proposed annual military budget is nearly $1 trillion. This includes Pentagon spending of $880 billion. The Afghanistan and Iraq wars...$1 trillion so far...will cost $200–250 billion more this year.

The Pentagon now accounts for half of total world military spending.

China and Russia combined spend only 10% of US on defense.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis179.html

I think we could find legitimate cuts without "raping" the military.
quote:
The Pentagon now accounts for half of total world military spending.

China and Russia combined spend only 10% of US on defense.


Not to get sidetracked, but you've touched on something relevant. Anytime a so-called expert points to other economies that have marginally functioning government programs and says, "It works in ________, and everyone seems happy with it," that expert is ignoring a huge factor. Our allies can spend less on defense, and then use that money on government programs because they know that, at the end of the day, we will continue to play world police on their behalf, should anything ever happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Air Force fetish is what I wrote. I refer to the huge cost over runs of new models that are already 10 years old if not more! The AF never met an aircraft it did not love and claim to obtain and then say it is "outmoded."

Why do you infer that a capital ship freeze would be permanent? I know that ships rust. It was called hyperbole. I also know that the USN is not squalling for any new ships like the Boeing/Lockheed crowd over at Colorado Springs.

Once again, I wrote "fetish" about fertilizers. I did not advocating abandoning them.

Longue duree analysis of Reaganomics may (and probably already does) prove to have been the root of the mess we are in now: cut taxes, spend, rinse, repeat, deregulate the foxes who swear they will guard the hens, rinse, repeat.

Finally, when was the last time anyone hyper-wealthy invested in the US economy other than to have a new ski lodge built or to visit their assets in Honduras/Mexico/Bangladesh? Give me a break!

Reinvesting in the US? That violates the very spirit of free trade cum what human rights abuses in my plants rugged individualist capitalist, doesn't it?


The air force advantage over foreign aircraft is a major factor in our military superiority. During WWII, our fighters scored 7 to 1 against the Germans.

I was actually speaking of our own investments. But, foreigners do have considerable investments. Here's a list of the top 50:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/0722/foreign.html

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