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Hi to my Forum Friends,

Often when I write an article and post it on public venues, I will get e-mails from those who do not agree with me, and sometimes from those who do agree. Yet, that is why I always include my e-mail address when I post an article -- I want to hear from everyone -- those who agree and those who disagree. Everyone has a point of view, everyone has something to say -- and, often, when responding to comments from other folks, this gives me an opportunity to share a dialogue with all my Friends which might be useful in your personal witnessing. The gentleman below, Don C., is responding to my article published in The Conservative Voice.

If so, please share this with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep dialogues and witnessing going with folks around the world -- until He comes again.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray

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Don c. wrote:

I read your article in which a person thought life begins in God's thought. She may be very close to the truth. Jeremiah 1:5 seems to confirm her thinking. Doesn't conception take place in the belly? Isn't this part of forming. If so, god knew before the forming.

"Regarding your vote: The important thing is that you do vote. Not voting -- Is voting; but, often with undesired results. "

I really don't understand your logic in asking people to vote and saying "That not voting is voting"

Please don't toot your horn too loudly as a gift because it does not come over as a clear way for you to communicate to me.

Don c.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Don,

Thank you for writing regarding my article "When Does Life Begin?" Did you read the article in The Conservative Voice or in the TimesDaily Forum?

I am presuming that it was in The Conservative Voice:
Link

You mention Jeremiah 1:5, which says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Yes, because God is omniscient, He knows all of us before we become a human life in our mother's womb, during the process of fertilization. He knew us, just as He knew, or foreknew, who will become children of God and who will reject God. This does not justify the teaching that God fore-ordained, before creation, that some would be saved -- and others, without having a chance at salvation, would be fore-condemned to hell.

So, just as God's omniscience does not make the Calvinist teaching of predestination true -- neither does God's omniscience prove that human life is created in God's mind -- and not in the womb. God foreknew it; but the actual process of creating life happened upon fertilization of the female egg, in the mother's womb.

I personally believe that Scripture proves that life begins at conception, when the male sperm fertilizes the female egg.

Now, regarding my statement in the article, "Regarding your vote: The important thing is that you do vote. Not voting -- Is voting; but, often with undesired results" --- I also do believe this.

I believe it is the privilege of every American to vote. I believe it is the duty of every American to vote. I believe it is the responsibility of every American to vote. And, there is no doubt that when a person does not vote -- that, in itself, is a vote.

Let's say that, in your heart, you really do not want to see Barack Obama in the White House. Yet, there are some issues where you disagree with John McCain. So, because you cannot agree 100% with either candidate -- you refuse to vote. If enough people feel this way and do not vote -- then, Obama might win by default. And, that is exactly what I mean by "undesired results" from not voting.

Don, once more, thank you for sending me your thoughts. I pray that I have sufficiently answered any questions you may have had when you read my original article "When Does Life Begin?".

I look forward to having further dialogue with you. Would you like to be added to my Friends Ministry mail list?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[COLOR:BLUE]This is a copy of what I responded to on the last question aboit this very same topic Bill: Please allow me to repeat it:.


Posted 31 August 2008 01:27 AM Hide Post
As the mother of 3 wonderful God given children, and the grandmother of 1 delightful 3 1/2 year old and another due in March, I can tell you, that to me, it occurs at conception. Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion. It has already been coded into that soon to be new life, all the information in which to make it "who it is.". The sex is already decided, and all the genetics from both the Mother and the Father have been meshed together to make this human life. I only know that after carrying 3 babies and feeling them move and kick and knowing that they depended on me for all their nourishment, love, and care, I know that without a doubt, they were "life" way before they were born. As with my 3 1/2 year old granddaughter and this new one coming in March, I know that when I saw the ultrasound of both of them and heard their little heartbeats, there is no way that anyone is going to convince me that these babies are not "life.". I mean, this new one coming in March, it's mommy, my daughter, had an ultrasound when she was just 8 weeks pregnant with this baby, which meant the age of the baby was 6 weeks. Folks, I saw that little baby's heart beating in it's little chest, and actually heard it's heartbeat at the same time, at 159 Beats Per Minute. We also could see it's two little tiny arms laying across it's little chest above that little beating heart. Now, if anyone tries to tell me that, even at that early of an age, with all that going on with this new little one, that it is not "life".. I will fight till my Death to defend it. To me, Life begins when the Sperm and the Egg unite and all the information about that new little one to come in 9 months is already there, All it has to do is grow. If anyone can look at an ultrasound and see these babies at such an early age, and hear those precious little heartbeats, then, there is something Bad wrong with that person, to say that it is not a "life".


Donna C. Proud Mother of 3, and Grandmother to a 3 1/2 year old and one 3 months in the womb.
quote:
I can tell you, that to me, it occurs at conception. Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion.


Cloning is now possible, Donna. That means that every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being.

But your reasoning, when you shed blood cells after you cut yourself, you are committing abortion, no?
quote:
Originally posted by DONNA C:
Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion. It has already been coded into that soon to be new life, all the information in which to make it "who it is.". The sex is already decided, and all the genetics from both the Mother and the Father have been meshed together to make this human life. .


Actually, you aren't entirely correct. Gender isn't determined until some weeks after conception, and there is a lot that happens during incubation that affects the final genetic outcome.

I was having a confabulous day. Frowner
Last edited by CrustyMac
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
I can tell you, that to me, it occurs at conception. Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion.


Cloning is now possible, Donna. That means that every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being.


Not saying it will never happen, but that's a bit misleading, GF.

From Link

"In 1978 David Rorvik claimed in his book In His Image: The Cloning of a Man that he had personal knowledge of the creation of a human clone. A court case followed. He failed to produce corroborating evidence to back up his claims; now regarded as a hoax.

Severino Antinori made claims in November, 2002 that a project to clone human beings had succeeded, with the first human clone due to be born in January 2003. His claims were received with skepticism from many observers.

In December 2002, Clonaid, the medical arm of a religion called Raëlism, who believe that aliens introduced human life on Earth, claimed to have successfully cloned a human being. They claim that aliens taught them how to perform cloning, even though the company has no record of having successfully cloned any previous animal. A spokesperson said an independent agency would prove that the baby, named Evá, is in fact an exact copy of her mother. Shortly thereafter, the testing was cancelled, with the spokesperson claiming the decision would ultimately be left up to Evá's parents.

On October 9, 2003, newspaper Le journal de Montréal published an article accusing Clonaid and the Raelian religion of maintaining an outright hoax in its claims regarding cloning a human baby.

In December 2004 Dr. Brigitte Boisselier, Clonaid's Chief Executive, claimed in a letter [1] to the UN that Clonaid has successfully cloned 13 children, however their identities cannot be revealed to the public in order to protect them."
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by DONNA C: Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion. It has already been coded into that soon to be new life, all the information in which to make it "who it is.". The sex is already decided, and all the genetics from both the Mother and the Father have been meshed together to make this human life. .


Actually, you aren't entirely correct. Gender isn't determined until some weeks after conception, and there is a lot that happens during incubation that affects the final genetic outcome.

The term "a loaf in the oven" is more accurate than whomever coined the phrase knew.
Hi Crusty,

Sorry, my Friend, you are wrong. The sex of child is determined at conception. Seems like everything happens at conception. God sure had a great plan when he established the process of creating new lives.

The excerpts below will verify what I have said:

Link

The genetic sex of a child is determined at conception. The mother's egg cell (ovum) contains an X chromosome, while the father's sperm cell contains either an X or a Y chromosome. These X and Y chromosomes determine the child's genetic sex.

Normally, an infant inherits one pair of sex chromosomes -- one X from the mother and one X or one Y from the father. Thus, it is the father who "determines" the genetic sex of the child. A baby who inherits the X chromosome from the father is a genetic female (two X chromosomes). A baby who inherits the Y chromosome from the father is a genetic male (one X and one Y chromosome). The male and female reproductive organs and genitals both arise from the same tissue in the fetus.


Link

What determines the gender of a baby?

The sex of a baby is determined by the two sex chromosomes inherited from the parents. A baby will normally inherit one sex chromosome from the mother, and one from the father. A woman has two X chromosomes, so she can give either of her X chromosomes. The father can give either his X or Y chromosome.

Since the egg already contains an X chromosome (from the mother), the gender of a baby is determined by the X or Y sex chromosome of the sperm cell from the father (thus adding one more thing to the "blame it on the husband" list if things don't go as planned).


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Not saying it will never happen, but that's a bit misleading, GF.


It was not misleading, Joy. Human cloning has been documented.

Link

The embryo was allowed to divide up to the sex cell stage before being, er, murdered by the evil scientists.

And from Wiki: "In January, 2008, Wood and Andrew French, Stemagen's chief scientific officer in California, announced that they successfully created the first 5 mature human embryos using DNA from adult skin cells, aiming to provide a less-controversial source of viable embryonic stem cells. ( . . .) It is not clear if the embryos produced would have been capable of further development, but Dr. Wood stated that if that were possible, using the technology for reproductive cloning would be both unethical and illegal. The 5 cloned embryos, created in Stemagen Corporation lab, in La Jolla, were later destroyed"
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by DONNA C: Because at the moment of conception, all the information about that new life is already put into motion. It has already been coded into that soon to be new life, all the information in which to make it "who it is.". The sex is already decided, and all the genetics from both the Mother and the Father have been meshed together to make this human life. .


Actually, you aren't entirely correct. Gender isn't determined until some weeks after conception, and there is a lot that happens during incubation that affects the final genetic outcome.

The term "a loaf in the oven" is more accurate than whomever coined the phrase knew.
Hi Crusty,

Sorry, my Friend, you are wrong. The sex of child is determined at conception. Seems like everything happens at conception. God sure had a great plan when he established the process of creating new lives.

The excerpts below will verify what I have said:

Link

The genetic sex of a child is determined at conception. The mother's egg cell (ovum) contains an X chromosome, while the father's sperm cell contains either an X or a Y chromosome. These X and Y chromosomes determine the child's genetic sex.

Normally, an infant inherits one pair of sex chromosomes -- one X from the mother and one X or one Y from the father. Thus, it is the father who "determines" the genetic sex of the child. A baby who inherits the X chromosome from the father is a genetic female (two X chromosomes). A baby who inherits the Y chromosome from the father is a genetic male (one X and one Y chromosome). The male and female reproductive organs and genitals both arise from the same tissue in the fetus.


Link

What determines the gender of a baby?

The sex of a baby is determined by the two sex chromosomes inherited from the parents. A baby will normally inherit one sex chromosome from the mother, and one from the father. A woman has two X chromosomes, so she can give either of her X chromosomes. The father can give either his X or Y chromosome.

Since the egg already contains an X chromosome (from the mother), the gender of a baby is determined by the X or Y sex chromosome of the sperm cell from the father (thus adding one more thing to the "blame it on the husband" list if things don't go as planned).


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
My bad, Bill. You are correct.
GoFish...From the excerpt you included in your post...

"It is not clear if the embryos produced would have been capable of further development."

versus your statement I was responding to...

"Cloning is now possible, Donna. That means that every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being."

It has not been successful at this time. This could be due to ethics issues rather than a failed attempt, but it is still not clear if success is achievable.

Regardless, it's a step toward helping sick people and that's a plus.
quote:
It has not been successful at this time.


Joy,

Yes, this is called "successful" cloning. No, we have not (as far as we know) allowed a dividing mass of cells to divide beyond a mass of cells but it was considered a "successful clone" the instant a jolt of electricity caused the single cell to begin division.

The process used in the cloning was exactly the same as that used in the first cloned mammal, a sheep named Dolly. So the process is quite well understood. There are very few reasons to suspect that the process would not work with humans.

However, for the purposes of this discussion, the cloned embryo is just that: a successfully cloned human embryo that either has a soul or does not.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
It has not been successful at this time.


Joy,

Yes, this is called "successful" cloning. No, we have not (as far as we know) allowed a dividing mass of cells to divide beyond a mass of cells but it was considered a "successful clone" the instant a jolt of electricity caused the single cell to begin division.

The process used in the cloning was exactly the same as that used in the first cloned mammal, a sheep named Dolly. So the process is quite well understood. There are very few reasons to suspect that the process would not work with humans.

However, for the purposes of this discussion, the cloned embryo is just that: a successfully cloned human embryo that either has a soul or does not.


"It is not clear if the embryos produced would have been capable of further development."

I'm just quoting the scientist in your article, GoFish, which refutes your claim that "every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being". Razzer
quote:
I'm just quoting the scientist in your article, GoFish, which refutes your claim that "every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being".


Joy,

I'm not sure where our disconnect is but you refuted nothing. Referring to this particular case, the scientists successfully transferred the genetic information from a SKIN CELL into an egg that had it's nucleus removed. They jolted with some electricity and the cell divided normally. They successfully created a human embryo. A clone. This was widely reported as the first successful cloning of human genetic material.

It is the EXACT SAME PROCESS used to clone the sheep, Dolly. The exact same process is used to clone cows (I saw a herd of clone cows yesterday off River Road - every single one of them had the identical large, white spot on their side - it was weird) and hundreds of other mammals.

Biologically speaking, dogs have a more complex reproductive biology - more complex than humans actually (and far more complicated than cats. If you have about a hundred grand and some genetic material of you pooch, you can now clone your dog.

It has been known for decades that a single cell in your body has all the necessary information to create a clone. We simply didn't have the technology that made it possible. Now we very clearly do.

The fact that every single one of your body's trillions of cells have the blueprint for a cloned you is not a matter of debate, Joy. It is proven scientific fact.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
I'm just quoting the scientist in your article, GoFish, which refutes your claim that "every single living cell in your body has all the necessary coding to form a new human being".

Joy,

I'm not sure where our disconnect is but you refuted nothing. Referring to this particular case, the scientists successfully transferred the genetic information from a SKIN CELL into an egg that had it's nucleus removed. They jolted with some electricity and the cell divided normally. They successfully created a human embryo. A clone. This was widely reported as the first successful cloning of human genetic material.

It is the EXACT SAME PROCESS used to clone the sheep, Dolly. The exact same process is used to clone cows (I saw a herd of clone cows yesterday off River Road - every single one of them had the identical large, white spot on their side - it was weird) and hundreds of other mammals.

Biologically speaking, dogs have a more complex reproductive biology - more complex than humans actually (and far more complicated than cats. If you have about a hundred grand and some genetic material of you pooch, you can now clone your dog.

It has been known for decades that a single cell in your body has all the necessary information to create a clone. We simply didn't have the technology that made it possible. Now we very clearly do.

The fact that every single one of your body's trillions of cells have the blueprint for a cloned you is not a matter of debate, Joy. It is proven scientific fact.

My dear Friend, Fish,

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

You have just proven Creation and a Creator. For how else could such intricate, such magnificent complexity have come into being?

Otherwise, we have people thinking that the next super computer will soon just ooze up out of the primordial swamp.

And, keep in mind that these highly complex cells are thousand, millions of times more complex than any computer.

Thank you, my Friend, for teaching Joy, and all of us, that God truly does exist -- and that He "created the heavens and the earth."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
I think Bill is off HIS medicine today. That last one just stunned me.

Hi Crusty,

Don't need medicine -- I'm high on the Spirit, the Holy Spirit! It's a great feeling. You and Fish should join us. He provides an Eternal Life Insurance Plan.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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