I hope no one minds that a newbie starts a page.
When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?
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quote:When does a person develop a soul?
Wull, at conception of course. If you accept the concept of a "soul" then there really is no other answer.
Which creates a fair bit of confusion since 25 to 50% of all pregnancies end in "spontaneous abortions" that are obviously caused by Yahweh himself.
Why in the world would he insert a soul, let it develop a few weeks, then yank it back into heaven?
Mysterious ways indeed.
(and welcome to the forum!)
Fish,
Perhaps to let it begin anew in another body that as yet has not been formed? I still have doubts on re-incarnation but it seems to fit the theory of a genetic consciousness.
Perhaps to let it begin anew in another body that as yet has not been formed? I still have doubts on re-incarnation but it seems to fit the theory of a genetic consciousness.
quote:genetic consciousness
NEW PHRASE ALERT!
<google, google>
Hmm. I am off to ponder that one a while . . .
Hi BT,
You ask, "I hope no one minds that a newbie starts a page. When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
First, welcome to the Forum Family. And, the best way for a Newbie to get your feet wet is to jump in with a post. You will notice that the very first person to respond to your question on Religion, or what I prefer to call Christianity, is one of our Resident Atheists.
Does it strike anyone odd that the first to always speak up on Christian matters -- is one who professes to NOT believe in Christ?
Well, let me try to explain this curious phenomenon to you. I will start with a wee bit of Scripture:
Job 1:6-7, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, 'From where do you come?' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, 'From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.'"
Satan was walking about the earth looking for his best target -- and Job, described by God Himself as "a blameless and upright man" (Job 1:8) -- was an obvious target worthy of Satan's personal attention.
You see, folks, Satan is a created being and is not omnipresent like God. Where God is in all places at all times; Satan, like you and me, can only be in one place at any given time. So, since you and I are not important enough to warrant Satan's personal attention -- he will send his B Team, or others even lower in his anti-God team to taunt and tempt us. But, not to worry, Satan has a large team. When he rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven, he took with him a third of the angels in heaven (Revelation 12:4). Billions of angels fell into Satan's (Lucifer) snare -- one third of the angels in heaven. But, that still leaves two thirds of the angels in heaven on our team.
This is proof of Satan's abilities as a liar and deceiver; that he could lure angels in heaven, in the very presence of God, to follow him in his evil ways. Is there any doubt that he is just as successful in luring mere mortal humans into his snare? And, thus, we have atheists. Now, adding to the billions of angels lured from God by Satan; he daily adds to his team by recruiting those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ -- and non-believers, agnostics, etc., are willing recruits -- and soon become full team members called atheists.
So, BT, you and I will not warrant Satan's attention -- but, boy do we have a ton of demonic angels, aka demonic spirits, plus their earthly recruits -- hammering us daily trying to lure us from God and into Satan's snare, to be his new team members.
Thus, as a good team member, in high standing -- our Atheist Friends must jump whenever they see the words Religion, Christian, Jesus, Jesus Christ, God, heaven, etc. You see, those are their red flags which draw them into battle.
BT, now that we have solved the riddle of the Atheist being first on the Religion Forum; let's take a look at your question.
You ask, "When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
God is a Triune God, i.e., three persons -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- yet one God. God created man in His image (Genesis 1:27) thus making man a triune being: body, soul, spirit. The body is the physical being or tent (2 Corinthians 5:4) which houses the soul; the soul being your eternal being, your character, the real you -- and the soul is eternal. Once created, it can never perish. And that soul is the eternal you which goes to heaven or to hell when you leave this world in death.
The third aspect of your triune being is your spirit; i.e., your spiritual connection with God. Adam and Eve were fully triune: body, soul, spirit. When Adam fell into sin through disobedience to God; his punishment was the loss of that spiritual connection with God. He could no longer commune directly with God. And, that punishment is visited upon all the descendants of Adam -- you and me; and all other human beings.
Yet, God, already had Plan B on the back burner: the restoration of man to Himself through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf. When a person places his/her faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- that spiritual connection is reestablished. Only this time it is truly high speed DSL, always connected, always ready for you to speak directly to God -- at any time.
When is the soul created? We know that nothing happens until, during ovulation, a woman's egg is fertilized by the male sperm. In other words, the woman's seed is fertilized, brought to life, endowed with life from God -- when brought together with the male sperm.
Dr. John Willke explains this process in a short YouTube video: Link
Genesis 12:7 (kjv) "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
God is telling Abraham that his "seed" -- his sperm -- will bring forth a child when it is united with the egg of Sarah. That child was Isaac. When did Isaac's life begin? When the egg of Sarah was fertilized by the seed, the sperm, of Abraham -- Isaac was life from the moment of that conception.
And, in Psalm 139:13-14 (nasb) "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well."
Now, is God saying, in the Scripture references above, that He would cause a woman's egg to be fertilized within her womb -- and nine months later -- it would become a human life? No. He is telling us, in many ways; that when He brings a man's sperm together with a woman's egg and causes fertilization -- He has created another human life. That life is precious because God created it; and man has no right to destroy the life that God has created in that womb.
You ask, "Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? "
Yes, the soul is created at conception -- and it is eternal. Your question seems to be asking if the soul existed before the conception. That would imply that God has a store room full of souls waiting to enter into mother's wombs and become human. That has a feel of reincarnation and is not true. A new human being, body and soul, is created upon conception within the mother's womb. Before that, that human being did not exist. God is in the eternal creation business -- always creating new souls.
And, "Do some people not have souls?"
No. Everyone human being is created by God -- and every human being has a soul. You might look at it this way: every created human being is still a triune being; just that one element is missing. That human being has a body; that human being has a soul; and that human being has a God shaped hole just waiting for a spirit to fill it, and restore it to its original triune condition -- when that person puts his/her faith in God.
That is why it is so important that Christian believers share the Gospel -- because that soul, that person, is eternal -- and that person is going to live eternally in one of two places: heaven or hell. This is why I tell folks about Jesus Christ and His free gift of salvation for everyone who, by grace through faith, believes in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Once again, BT, welcome to the Forum -- and especially to the new Religion Forum.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
You ask, "I hope no one minds that a newbie starts a page. When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
First, welcome to the Forum Family. And, the best way for a Newbie to get your feet wet is to jump in with a post. You will notice that the very first person to respond to your question on Religion, or what I prefer to call Christianity, is one of our Resident Atheists.
Does it strike anyone odd that the first to always speak up on Christian matters -- is one who professes to NOT believe in Christ?
Well, let me try to explain this curious phenomenon to you. I will start with a wee bit of Scripture:
Job 1:6-7, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, 'From where do you come?' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, 'From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.'"
Satan was walking about the earth looking for his best target -- and Job, described by God Himself as "a blameless and upright man" (Job 1:8) -- was an obvious target worthy of Satan's personal attention.
You see, folks, Satan is a created being and is not omnipresent like God. Where God is in all places at all times; Satan, like you and me, can only be in one place at any given time. So, since you and I are not important enough to warrant Satan's personal attention -- he will send his B Team, or others even lower in his anti-God team to taunt and tempt us. But, not to worry, Satan has a large team. When he rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven, he took with him a third of the angels in heaven (Revelation 12:4). Billions of angels fell into Satan's (Lucifer) snare -- one third of the angels in heaven. But, that still leaves two thirds of the angels in heaven on our team.
This is proof of Satan's abilities as a liar and deceiver; that he could lure angels in heaven, in the very presence of God, to follow him in his evil ways. Is there any doubt that he is just as successful in luring mere mortal humans into his snare? And, thus, we have atheists. Now, adding to the billions of angels lured from God by Satan; he daily adds to his team by recruiting those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ -- and non-believers, agnostics, etc., are willing recruits -- and soon become full team members called atheists.
So, BT, you and I will not warrant Satan's attention -- but, boy do we have a ton of demonic angels, aka demonic spirits, plus their earthly recruits -- hammering us daily trying to lure us from God and into Satan's snare, to be his new team members.
Thus, as a good team member, in high standing -- our Atheist Friends must jump whenever they see the words Religion, Christian, Jesus, Jesus Christ, God, heaven, etc. You see, those are their red flags which draw them into battle.
BT, now that we have solved the riddle of the Atheist being first on the Religion Forum; let's take a look at your question.
You ask, "When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
God is a Triune God, i.e., three persons -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- yet one God. God created man in His image (Genesis 1:27) thus making man a triune being: body, soul, spirit. The body is the physical being or tent (2 Corinthians 5:4) which houses the soul; the soul being your eternal being, your character, the real you -- and the soul is eternal. Once created, it can never perish. And that soul is the eternal you which goes to heaven or to hell when you leave this world in death.
The third aspect of your triune being is your spirit; i.e., your spiritual connection with God. Adam and Eve were fully triune: body, soul, spirit. When Adam fell into sin through disobedience to God; his punishment was the loss of that spiritual connection with God. He could no longer commune directly with God. And, that punishment is visited upon all the descendants of Adam -- you and me; and all other human beings.
Yet, God, already had Plan B on the back burner: the restoration of man to Himself through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf. When a person places his/her faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- that spiritual connection is reestablished. Only this time it is truly high speed DSL, always connected, always ready for you to speak directly to God -- at any time.
When is the soul created? We know that nothing happens until, during ovulation, a woman's egg is fertilized by the male sperm. In other words, the woman's seed is fertilized, brought to life, endowed with life from God -- when brought together with the male sperm.
Dr. John Willke explains this process in a short YouTube video: Link
Genesis 12:7 (kjv) "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
God is telling Abraham that his "seed" -- his sperm -- will bring forth a child when it is united with the egg of Sarah. That child was Isaac. When did Isaac's life begin? When the egg of Sarah was fertilized by the seed, the sperm, of Abraham -- Isaac was life from the moment of that conception.
And, in Psalm 139:13-14 (nasb) "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well."
Now, is God saying, in the Scripture references above, that He would cause a woman's egg to be fertilized within her womb -- and nine months later -- it would become a human life? No. He is telling us, in many ways; that when He brings a man's sperm together with a woman's egg and causes fertilization -- He has created another human life. That life is precious because God created it; and man has no right to destroy the life that God has created in that womb.
You ask, "Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? "
Yes, the soul is created at conception -- and it is eternal. Your question seems to be asking if the soul existed before the conception. That would imply that God has a store room full of souls waiting to enter into mother's wombs and become human. That has a feel of reincarnation and is not true. A new human being, body and soul, is created upon conception within the mother's womb. Before that, that human being did not exist. God is in the eternal creation business -- always creating new souls.
And, "Do some people not have souls?"
No. Everyone human being is created by God -- and every human being has a soul. You might look at it this way: every created human being is still a triune being; just that one element is missing. That human being has a body; that human being has a soul; and that human being has a God shaped hole just waiting for a spirit to fill it, and restore it to its original triune condition -- when that person puts his/her faith in God.
That is why it is so important that Christian believers share the Gospel -- because that soul, that person, is eternal -- and that person is going to live eternally in one of two places: heaven or hell. This is why I tell folks about Jesus Christ and His free gift of salvation for everyone who, by grace through faith, believes in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Once again, BT, welcome to the Forum -- and especially to the new Religion Forum.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
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Bill,
You yourself have agreed with me that a mother who commits abortion at day three of her pregnancy is not quite as deserving of a murder conviction as the mother who would abort during the 9th month.
Why the inconsistency, Bill? If the soul is inserted at the instant the sperm meets the egg, then that dividing mass of cells is just as "human" as you and I, right?
As for your insistence that I am a demon sent by Satan himself: Boo. I don't just not believe in the existence of a living Christ, I don't believe in anything supernatural. That includes evil boogieman who lives under the earth that controls the minds of forum members and entices them to disbeleive in the monster that is controlling them.
This is insanity, Bill.
You yourself have agreed with me that a mother who commits abortion at day three of her pregnancy is not quite as deserving of a murder conviction as the mother who would abort during the 9th month.
Why the inconsistency, Bill? If the soul is inserted at the instant the sperm meets the egg, then that dividing mass of cells is just as "human" as you and I, right?
As for your insistence that I am a demon sent by Satan himself: Boo. I don't just not believe in the existence of a living Christ, I don't believe in anything supernatural. That includes evil boogieman who lives under the earth that controls the minds of forum members and entices them to disbeleive in the monster that is controlling them.
This is insanity, Bill.
Thank you for the replies. I thought I was being ignored. 
Mr. Gray, your scriptures are well stated but I do not have any fear of someone who disagrees with me. I know Satan is in existence but I don't think that a different point of view makes someone Satan.
My question was brought up because of something that Mr Gofish actually mentioned. If a baby dies or is spontaneously aborted naturally, did the baby have a soul? It had not even taken a breath or opened its eyes or lived as a separate being. I know in my heart that the baby would go to heaven but a soul is also a personality and I see a conflict there. I am not trying to be contrary I just have a strange way of looking at things. If the soul is eternal and a personality is separate then even someone like Mr. Gofish who's personality part does not believe in God but his soul does, would also allow him to go to heaven. Does that make sense? Thank you.
Mr. Gray, your scriptures are well stated but I do not have any fear of someone who disagrees with me. I know Satan is in existence but I don't think that a different point of view makes someone Satan.
My question was brought up because of something that Mr Gofish actually mentioned. If a baby dies or is spontaneously aborted naturally, did the baby have a soul? It had not even taken a breath or opened its eyes or lived as a separate being. I know in my heart that the baby would go to heaven but a soul is also a personality and I see a conflict there. I am not trying to be contrary I just have a strange way of looking at things. If the soul is eternal and a personality is separate then even someone like Mr. Gofish who's personality part does not believe in God but his soul does, would also allow him to go to heaven. Does that make sense? Thank you.
quote:If the soul is eternal and a personality is separate then even someone like Mr. Gofish who's personality part does not believe in God but his soul does, would also allow him to go to heaven. Does that make sense?
Not really. The only way this all really makes sense is if you accept that there simply is no eternal soul. Once your remove the superstition and assert reason into the argument, it all makes perfect sense. But perhaps that's just me.
As for the heaven/hell part I'll say this: If there is a piece of hell specifically reserved for good, moral people who try their best to leave this world in a better place, then I am there, baby!
You should look into the Mormon faith Fish, They have such a place.
Bill ~ if you believe that the soul is created or inserted or whatever at conception, are you against women using the birth control pill to prevent pregnancy? Do you believe that they are killing young souls by allowing conception, but then preventing the fertilized egg from being implanted. A woman is not pregnant at conception, she is pregnant at implantation. So... just wondering where you stand on that.
TSC, good point. I had not thought of it that way. Even if you don't use birth control, not all zygotes implant properly and are sloughed off. Lost souls or biological cleansing?
These discussions always gets back to trying to prove faith via science, doesn't it?
I mean, really, it is perfectly okay for a person of faith to say, "I choose to believe the soul is inserted at conception and really don't want to think about it any more. See ya." I, personally, cannot ascribe to that kind of self-inflicted ignorance but I understand how it can be comforting to some.
But, no, the fundamentalists constantly try to use the tools of logic, reason and science on the invisible machine of faith.
I mean, really, it is perfectly okay for a person of faith to say, "I choose to believe the soul is inserted at conception and really don't want to think about it any more. See ya." I, personally, cannot ascribe to that kind of self-inflicted ignorance but I understand how it can be comforting to some.
But, no, the fundamentalists constantly try to use the tools of logic, reason and science on the invisible machine of faith.
Are you sure you read TSC's post right Fish? She is not proving faith via science, she is pointing out a conflict with faith AND science.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi BT,
You ask, "I hope no one minds that a newbie starts a page. When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
First, welcome to the Forum Family. And, the best way for a Newbie to get your feet wet is to jump in with a post. You will notice that the very first person to respond to your question on Religion, or what I prefer to call Christianity, is one of our Resident Atheists.
Does it strike anyone odd that the first to always speak up on Christian matters -- is one who professes to NOT believe in Christ?
Well, let me try to explain this curious phenomenon to you. I will start with a wee bit of Scripture:
Job 1:6-7, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, 'From where do you come?' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, 'From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.'"
Satan was walking about the earth looking for his best target -- and Job, described by God Himself as "a blameless and upright man" (Job 1:8) -- was an obvious target worthy of Satan's personal attention.
You see, folks, Satan is a created being and is not omnipresent like God. Where God is in all places at all times; Satan, like you and me, can only be in one place at any given time. So, since you and I are not important enough to warrant Satan's personal attention -- he will send his B Team, or others even lower in his anti-God team to taunt and tempt us. But, not to worry, Satan has a large team. When he rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven, he took with him a third of the angels in heaven (Revelation 12:4). Billions of angels fell into Satan's (Lucifer) snare -- one third of the angels in heaven. But, that still leaves two thirds of the angels in heaven on our team.
This is proof of Satan's abilities as a liar and deceiver; that he could lure angels in heaven, in the very presence of God, to follow him in his evil ways. Is there any doubt that he is just as successful in luring mere mortal humans into his snare? And, thus, we have atheists. Now, adding to the billions of angels lured from God by Satan; he daily adds to his team by recruiting those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ -- and non-believers, agnostics, etc., are willing recruits -- and soon become full team members called atheists.
So, BT, you and I will not warrant Satan's attention -- but, boy do we have a ton of demonic angels, aka demonic spirits, plus their earthly recruits -- hammering us daily trying to lure us from God and into Satan's snare, to be his new team members.
Thus, as a good team member, in high standing -- our Atheist Friends must jump whenever they see the words Religion, Christian, Jesus, Jesus Christ, God, heaven, etc. You see, those are their red flags which draw them into battle.
BT, now that we have solved the riddle of the Atheist being first on the Religion Forum; let's take a look at your question.
You ask, "When does a person develop a soul? Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? Do some people not have souls?"
God is a Triune God, i.e., three persons -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- yet one God. God created man in His image (Genesis 1:27) thus making man a triune being: body, soul, spirit. The body is the physical being or tent (2 Corinthians 5:4) which houses the soul; the soul being your eternal being, your character, the real you -- and the soul is eternal. Once created, it can never perish. And that soul is the eternal you which goes to heaven or to hell when you leave this world in death.
The third aspect of your triune being is your spirit; i.e., your spiritual connection with God. Adam and Eve were fully triune: body, soul, spirit. When Adam fell into sin through disobedience to God; his punishment was the loss of that spiritual connection with God. He could no longer commune directly with God. And, that punishment is visited upon all the descendants of Adam -- you and me; and all other human beings.
Yet, God, already had Plan B on the back burner: the restoration of man to Himself through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf. When a person places his/her faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- that spiritual connection is reestablished. Only this time it is truly high speed DSL, always connected, always ready for you to speak directly to God -- at any time.
When is the soul created? We know that nothing happens until, during ovulation, a woman's egg is fertilized by the male sperm. In other words, the woman's seed is fertilized, brought to life, endowed with life from God -- when brought together with the male sperm.
Dr. John Willke explains this process in a short YouTube video: Link
Genesis 12:7 (kjv) "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
God is telling Abraham that his "seed" -- his sperm -- will bring forth a child when it is united with the egg of Sarah. That child was Isaac. When did Isaac's life begin? When the egg of Sarah was fertilized by the seed, the sperm, of Abraham -- Isaac was life from the moment of that conception.
And, in Psalm 139:13-14 (nasb) "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well."
Now, is God saying, in the Scripture references above, that He would cause a woman's egg to be fertilized within her womb -- and nine months later -- it would become a human life? No. He is telling us, in many ways; that when He brings a man's sperm together with a woman's egg and causes fertilization -- He has created another human life. That life is precious because God created it; and man has no right to destroy the life that God has created in that womb.
You ask, "Is it at conception, birth, or is it eternal? "
Yes, the soul is created at conception -- and it is eternal. Your question seems to be asking if the soul existed before the conception. That would imply that God has a store room full of souls waiting to enter into mother's wombs and become human. That has a feel of reincarnation and is not true. A new human being, body and soul, is created upon conception within the mother's womb. Before that, that human being did not exist. God is in the eternal creation business -- always creating new souls.
And, "Do some people not have souls?"
No. Everyone human being is created by God -- and every human being has a soul. You might look at it this way: every created human being is still a triune being; just that one element is missing. That human being has a body; that human being has a soul; and that human being has a God shaped hole just waiting for a spirit to fill it, and restore it to its original triune condition -- when that person puts his/her faith in God.
That is why it is so important that Christian believers share the Gospel -- because that soul, that person, is eternal -- and that person is going to live eternally in one of two places: heaven or hell. This is why I tell folks about Jesus Christ and His free gift of salvation for everyone who, by grace through faith, believes in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Once again, BT, welcome to the Forum -- and especially to the new Religion Forum.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
WHAT ABOUT THIS...
To answer this question, let us turn to the highest authority on the subject—the inspired Word of the Creator. In the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, we learn the accurate meaning of "soul." Regarding the creation of the first man, Adam, the Bible says: "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Clearly, the soul is not what a man has but what he is. The Hebrew word used here for soul is ne'phesh. It occurs some 700 times in the Bible, and it never refers to a separate and ethereal part of a human but always to something tangible and physicalJob 6:7; Psalm 35:13; 107:9; 119:28.
and What happens to the soul at death? Consider what happened to Adam at his death. When he sinned, God told him: "You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Think of what that means. Before God created him from the dust, Adam did not exist. After his death, Adam returned to the same state of nonexistence.
Simply stated, the Bible teaches that death is the opposite of life. At Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, we read: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."
This means that the dead are unable to do or feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, nor do they remember anything. The psalmist states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish."—Psalm 146:3, 4.
The Bible clearly shows that at death the soul does not move on to another body, but it dies. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die," the Bible emphatically states. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Acts 3:23; Revelation 16:3) Thus, the doctrine of the immortality of the soul—the very foundation of the theory of reincarnation—does not find any support in the Scriptures. Without it, the theory collapses. What, then, explains the suffering we see in the world?
quote:Are you sure you read TSC's post right Fish? She is not proving faith via science, she is pointing out a conflict with faith AND science.
Whoa. No, I didn't mean my post as a slam on my buddy TSC although I can see where you may have gotten that impression. I was actually agreeing with her.
She knows (as well as you, I suspect) that reason is not always compatible with faith. An evolutionary biologist, Stephen Jay Gould, suggested a compromise and coined the term "Nonoverlapping Magisteria."
Check it: Link
For the record: I am a Christian but I do not believe that every word of the Bible is to be taken literally. Nor do I believe that we are commanded to apply the Bible to our daily lives in the literal sense, just as it was written.
Just a little clarification there for anyone who was wondering. I realize that some are confused by my postings sometimes. Maybe that can clear things up for them.
Just a little clarification there for anyone who was wondering. I realize that some are confused by my postings sometimes. Maybe that can clear things up for them.
I got you TSC, I misunderstood Fish. I was raised Presbyterian and married a Catholic. Talk about a mix. I don't believe the Bible literally either, if I did, my husband would be most happy as I would be silent. 
quote:Simply stated, the Bible teaches that death is the opposite of life. At Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, we read: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."
This means that the dead are unable to do or feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, nor do they remember anything. The psalmist states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish."—Psalm 146:3, 4.
The Bible clearly shows that at death the soul does not move on to another body, but it dies. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die," the Bible emphatically states.
Not to be confrontational, but that is not describing and afterlife as I know it.The dead have no thought, no movement, no soul, so how do you put a heaven in that?
The sinning soul dies, it does not mention any other. So if at death, all stops including our souls, there is no heaven.
Hi TSC,quote:Originally posted by T S C: For the record: I am a Christian but I do not believe that every word of the Bible is to be taken literally. Nor do I believe that we are commanded to apply the Bible to our daily lives in the literal sense, just as it was written.
Just a little clarification there for anyone who was wondering. I realize that some are confused by my postings sometimes. Maybe that can clear things up for them.
Then how do you explain 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
The last time I checked -- ALL means ALL. So, ALL Scripture is inspired by God -- means ALL Scripture is inspired by God. Would God, who is perfect in all ways, inspire erroneous Scripture verses or passages?
You either believe God or you do not believe God. When He tells me ALL -- I take it to mean ALL. Once we begin to say that some Scripture is right and some Scripture is wrong -- who is to decide which verses are right and which verses are wrong? And, if any of the Bible is wrong; we may as well throw out the complete Bible -- for it would have to have been inspired by a God who is not perfect. Therefore all our beliefs are wrong -- and there is no Christianity.
You tell us you are a Christian -- do you believe God is perfect? If He is; why do you doubt that which He inspired? If He is not perfect; why do you worship Him?
Think about it.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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Bill, if all means all, as stated in Timothy - Then how do you explain the exclusion of the books of Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and also portions of Esther and Daniel from your Bible?
All means all, or does it?
All means all, or does it?
quote:as I would be silent.
As a woman should be!
quote:who is to decide which verses are right and which verses are wrong?
Umm, common sense?
Now, for something completely different, here is a beautiful example of the righteousness, the correctness of the Holy Bible:
From Genesis
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. [Brick Testament] The Seduction of Lot
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father
For those that need visuals, here is an illustrated version: Link
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:as I would be silent.
As a woman should be!
You could be made to suffer, you know!
The human knee is such a versatile joint.quote:Originally posted by T S C:
Bill, if all means all, as stated in Timothy - Then how do you explain the exclusion of the books of Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and also portions of Esther and Daniel from your Bible?
All means all, or does it?
Hi TSC,
And there are many other books written in the Old Testament days and in the New Testament church era -- which are not part of the Bible. Those books, like all the many Gnostic books were not considered inspired and were not included in the Bible.
Since we know that God could inspire men to write the books He wanted written -- we know, too, that He could guide those who selected the canonical books to be included in the Bible.
The Scripture verse, 2 Timothy 3:16, says that ALL Scripture -- not all other books -- is inspired by God. So, once again, I say that ALL means ALL and it tells us that the Bible, all the Bible, not just the verses which fit your favorite theology -- is inspired by God and profitable for teaching and training in righteousness.
TSC, a cut and paste Bible is not a Bible. A theology must be built upon the Bible, the entire Bible -- not just one or two verses.
God bless, have a wonderul, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:who is to decide which verses are right and which verses are wrong?
Umm, common sense?
Now, for something completely different, here is a beautiful example of the righteousness, the correctness of the Holy Bible:
From Genesis
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. [Brick Testament] The Seduction of Lot
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father
Hi Fish,
And your point is? You say, "Now, for something completely different, here is a beautiful example of the righteousness, the correctness of the Holy Bible."
Has anyone ever told you that the people who are in the Bible are righteous? If so, they lied to you. There is not a single person in the Bible, except Jesus Christ, who is righteous. That is why Jesus Christ chose to come to earth in the form of a human -- so that He could pay our pardon and impute His righteousness to all who will believe.
Without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross -- not one single human being would be allowed into heaven. For we are all very unrighteous, very unclean. Yet, when Christ died on the cross, defeating Satan -- and when He rose from the grave, defeating death -- He then offered a free gift of salvation to everyone who will, by grace through faith, receive Him as Lord and Savior.
So, you are right that we are a motley crew. And, the Bible, being righteous and truthful, displays us as we are: the good, the bad, and the ugly. Yet, when we are under the righteous umbrella of Jesus Christ -- we are as pure as new snow.
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify this for our Forum Friends. You and I make a great Gospel Evangelism team.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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Bill, those books were in the Bible before man took them out. Man has added and deleted books over time. Man has made translations and assumptions about the original text.
I believe (here is my personal declaration) that God told the writers of the Bible what to write. Or he inspired them, influenced them, gave them their desire to write. I believe that the Bible was written to a specific group of people - the church at Corinth, Timothy, etc... and that the principles laid out in the Bible are to apply to all people for all time, but not the specifics. Love one another, do not lie, take care of the poor, etc are all timeless. Women do not speak in church, men do not cut your beard, and the like are laws of the time - not laws of God, in my opinion. So just as Christ admonished the Pharisees for being legalistic, I think that anyone who is legalistic today is missing the true meaning of the Word.
My two cents.
I believe (here is my personal declaration) that God told the writers of the Bible what to write. Or he inspired them, influenced them, gave them their desire to write. I believe that the Bible was written to a specific group of people - the church at Corinth, Timothy, etc... and that the principles laid out in the Bible are to apply to all people for all time, but not the specifics. Love one another, do not lie, take care of the poor, etc are all timeless. Women do not speak in church, men do not cut your beard, and the like are laws of the time - not laws of God, in my opinion. So just as Christ admonished the Pharisees for being legalistic, I think that anyone who is legalistic today is missing the true meaning of the Word.
My two cents.
My two cents.[/quote]
Ugly indeed:
Malachi 2:
2:3 (Sayeth the Loward Almighty) Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
I mean, really Bill, the Creator of the universe stoops to threatening people with smearing poop on their face unless they give him some gloy? Do you really consider this an accurate portrayal of the limitless love of god-duh?
quote:And, the Bible, being righteous and truthful, displays us as we are: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Ugly indeed:
Malachi 2:
2:3 (Sayeth the Loward Almighty) Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
I mean, really Bill, the Creator of the universe stoops to threatening people with smearing poop on their face unless they give him some gloy? Do you really consider this an accurate portrayal of the limitless love of god-duh?
TSC - I agree with you. God is perfect, but man is not.
quote:God is perfect, but man is not
Is god threatening to smear poop on a man's face an example of this "perfection"?
And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon.--2 Samuel 12:31
I have to take these type verses with a grain of salt. I think they are part of the ones that corruptible men wrote for sensationalism. Lots of sensationalism, sexism, and racism in the Bible.
I have to take these type verses with a grain of salt. I think they are part of the ones that corruptible men wrote for sensationalism. Lots of sensationalism, sexism, and racism in the Bible.
oh, and I love this one, too:
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~I Samuel 25:22
[...]
For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~I Samuel 25:34
Use a urinal! Do NOT pee on the wall!!!
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~I Samuel 25:22
[...]
For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~I Samuel 25:34
Use a urinal! Do NOT pee on the wall!!!
I thought this was supposed to be about a soul? The originator said in a political post that he/she was leaving. I wonder why?
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
My two cents.
quote:And, the Bible, being righteous and truthful, displays us as we are: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
quote:Ugly indeed:
Malachi 2:
2:3 (Sayeth the Loward Almighty) Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
I mean, really Bill, the Creator of the universe stoops to threatening people with smearing poop on their face unless they give him some gloy? Do you really consider this an accurate portrayal of the limitless love of god-duh?
Hi Fish,
Given that -- can you imagine what the LORD has in store for one who ridicules His name by calling Him Loward?
Maybe you should give this some thought.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by T S C: oh, and I love this one, too: So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~ I Samuel 25:22
[...]
For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. ~ I Samuel
25:34
Hi TSC,
What is the problem? The Hebrew word for the old English phrase "any that pisseth" is "shathan" and, according to Strong's Concordance, means: one who urinates (used as a designation of a male)
So, those who spoke Hebrew or Aramaic in the Old Testament days had funny ways of expressing some things. Most folks trying to learn English as a second language today think we have some pretty weird words and phrases also.
If you will visit the Blue Letter Bible site: Link -- you will find about fifteen translations and you will find that all the more current translations have been updated to more current English wording -- just so it will not tickle foolish ears.
NASB: "May God do so to the enemies of David, and more also, if by morning I leave {as much as} one male of any who belong to him."
NKJV: "May God do so, and more also, to the enemies of David, if I leave one male of all who belong to him by morning light."
Men are weak vessels -- and, God, in the Bible does not try to white wash our appearance. This is why I say that the Bible shows the good, the bad, and the ugly. This way, even our atheist Friends are included.
TSC, you might try looking for golden nuggets of wisdom in the Bible -- instead of vainly searching for ways to disprove the Bible. Over the centuries, many men wiser that you or me have attempted to do this -- and, many, in their search to disprove God -- have become strong believers. C. S. Lewis is one; Lee Strobel is another.
We find what we search for -- if we seek garbage, we find garbage. If we sincerely seek wisdom -- we find wisdom. What are you seeking?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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I have never tried to disprove the Bible. On the contrary, I try to take it for what it is and live my life in accordance with its principles. What are you seeking, Bill? To frighten, shame, or browbeat unbelievers into submission? Your legalistic ways are not in line with the teachings that I have read in my Bible. The Bible is full of stories, some funny and some tragic. Some I think have survived the times and keep the intent as written by the men who God inspired. Others I think have become bastardized into fables that are meant to shame, frighten, and browbeat people.
Back to the issue of a soul. Do you believe that it is inserted into the embryo at conception or implantation? If the former, do you think women who use the Pill are murdering children?
Back to the issue of a soul. Do you believe that it is inserted into the embryo at conception or implantation? If the former, do you think women who use the Pill are murdering children?
quote:Given that -- can you imagine what the LORD has in store for one who ridicules His name by calling Him Loward?
You forgot to answer the question, Bill. Do you really consider this poo-smearing threat an accurate portrayal of the limitless love of god?
After all, it is you that claimed, "Would God, who is perfect in all ways, inspire erroneous Scripture verses or passages?"
I would certainly consider this an horrifyingly erroneous passage and this is just one of thousands. Want me to show 'em to you?
quote:Originally posted by LMM:
I was raised Presbyterian ....
Well, there you go. You already have one foot in Hell. Your only redemption is that you grew up with lousy music. Ever been to a Methodist church? Same thing, livelier music. They have no hope.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Given that -- can you imagine what the LORD has in store for one who ridicules His name by calling Him Loward?
You forgot to answer the question, Bill. Do you really consider this poo-smearing threat an accurate portrayal of the limitless love of god?
After all, it is you that claimed, "Would God, who is perfect in all ways, inspire erroneous Scripture verses or passages?"
I would certainly consider this an horrifyingly erroneous passage and this is just one of thousands. Want me to show 'em to you?
***
Not Bill here, but I will add my 2 cents in.
You have failed to see that the people who would or could receive this punishment deserves what ever God <--- THE PERFECT ONE, chooses to give them.
You look at man as being o.k. and a good soul and that is where you make your mistake. You have the mind-set that you are in charge of yourself and you need no discipline or guidance. You are sadly mistaken and you prove this to be true in the life you live and the words you speak.
As a child you received discipline from your parents because of the evil you had done. They punished you for what reason? Because they hated you? No I think your parents loved you, and in their love they still punished you!
There is a hierarchy that you as an atheist fail to realize or remember.
As an adult you place other leaders in charge of you such as police, governors, presidents, bosses e.t.c.! There is one difference in all of them which is over you and God, and that is HE IS OVER AND IN CONTROL OF ALL OF THEM >>>> He is their boss whether they want to or will admit it.
It is just the system of things. Just like life's system on this earth; you either do what is right or you get punished. (Cause and Effect) come on "Einstein" you should know this is how it works.
Good day.
quote:You have failed to see that the people who would or could receive this punishment deserves what ever God <--- THE PERFECT ONE, chooses to give them.
Braylan,
Pay attention. God - the most perfect being in the universe - threatens to rub poop in the face of one of His creations.
Does that not strike you as just a little petty or weird or perhaps even vile and disgusting? It is, at the very least, "erroneous."
Have you ever considered rubbing poop on one of your kids because they misbehave?
. . . On second thought, don't answer that. After all, it is a god-sanctioned form of punishment.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
Braylan,
Pay attention. God - the most perfect being in the universe - threatens to rub poop in the face of one of His creations.
Does that not strike you as just a little petty or weird or perhaps even vile and disgusting? It is, at the very least, "erroneous."
Have you ever considered rubbing poop on one of your kids because they misbehave?
. . . On second thought, don't answer that. After all, it is a god-sanctioned form of punishment.
Fish, pay attention. God - the most perfect being in the universe - does not need your approval in what method He see's fit to get the people to PAY ATTENTION & understand that what they are doing is wrong and they need to turn from it.
Basically it is like when you tell your child not to throw a ball in the house for the hundredth time or you will cut it up and throw it in the garbage. You still love your child but you go to the extreme at times in order to get his attention. When all the previous warnings were not listend to, sometimes it takes a stronger measure.
Also you would have to put the verses in context to the times of living and what that woud mean to them. You see Priest were thought of in high regard because they were the only ones that could go into the presence of God for sacrificial purposes. The Israelite knew according to God that it was a defilement to touch anything unclean so God used it to get their attention.
In a way God was saying this ---> If you are going to act unclean and do unclean things then I will truly make you unclean and throw you away from My presence as an unclean thing.
Here are links to many translations of the scripture you used.
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Thanks for posting something and allowing me to explain it according to how I came to understand it. It is such a simple thing, if only you open your heart up to the Lord and ask Him to come in and give you wisdom for His word.
Even though you don't acknowledge Him, He is still trying to get you to pay attention. God bless and I will keep praying for you as always.