Abortion, It's a choice it's not murder

quote:

kinda have to disagree with this one. it prevents conception, so that the egg is never fertilized. it might be a Prebortion. /shrug

yep. life begins at conception. when the egg is fertilized. If fertilization is blocked, no problem. but if fertilization occurs, and IMPLANTATION is blocked, then its a pharmaceutical abortion. in my opinion.
Did yall know that many birth control pills work by blocking implantation? Therefore eggs can still be fertilized.....FYI.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

kinda have to disagree with this one. it prevents conception, so that the egg is never fertilized. it might be a Prebortion. /shrug

yep. life begins at conception. when the egg is fertilized. If fertilization is blocked, no problem. but if fertilization occurs, and IMPLANTATION is blocked, then its a pharmaceutical abortion. in my opinion.
Did yall know that many birth control pills work by blocking implantation? Therefore eggs can still be fertilized.....FYI.

yes, i did.

i easily see your point on this, but still not sure i can go that far, because i don't know enough about the morning after pill. it's supposed to prevent acctual fertilization, isn't it? i've seen/heard/read a bit about it, and never caught anything about implantation, only fertilization.

quote:

if the woman's life is in jeopardy (as in the case of a 9 year old child) than the procedure ceases to be "ELECTIVE".
ELECTIVE abortion is murder.

Veep,

I'm gratified that you agree that choices sometimes do have to be made. In the case of the 9 year old, the Catholic church (who is the vanguard for children's rights and always has their best interests in mind, doncha know?) excommunicated the doctor who performed the abortion on this girl.

The Catholics seem to agree with the majority here: that ALL abortions are murder ALL the time.

You just appointed yourself and judge, jury and executioner. YOU have what appears to be your own, personal opinions on this matter. You seem to agree that in some cases, abortion is acceptable choice for some.

Yet you will disallow all women the right to choose for their own person decisions?

In order to enact this law, you will have to cover all your bases. In order to do that, you will have to present some moral foundation that determines the right and wrong of this issue. What is that moral or legal foundation?

quote:

yep. life begins at conception. when the egg is fertilized. If fertilization is blocked, no problem. but if fertilization occurs, and IMPLANTATION is blocked, then its a pharmaceutical abortion. in my opinion.

Couples who cannot conceive go to fertility clinics. These clinics fertilize a number of eggs in a petri dish ("test tube babies").

A few of the fertilized eggs are implanted in the mom. Some of those "take" and some do not.

The remaining eggs in the petri dish are washed down the drain.

Question: Are these fertility clinic doctors guilty of mass murder? If all abortion is "murder" then these guys deserve the death penalty, right?

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh- morning after pill? It's an abortion, albeit in a pharmaceutical form.



i kinda have to disagree with this one. it prevents conception

No sir. The morning after pill prevents the FERTILIZED egg from attaching to the uterine wall. The pill is essentially a whopping dose of the same stuff used in birth control pills.

So "conception" has already occurred. Pregnancy has not.

So should this woman go to prison?

Hey SK-
You are right- choices have to be made WHEN the mothers life is in jeopardy.
I respect the Catholic Church for maintaining firm their respect for life "from conception until natural death".
HOWEVER on a personal level, YES I do think that if her life is in danger, that would be an extenuating circumstance. Ugh I hope I don't get excommunicated for saying that....
I akin it to "mitigating" circumstances around any murder- extreme emotional duress, self defense,etc. It's still murder, but perhaps somehow justifiable by law. I just don't know...
It saddens me to hear of examples such as this 9 year old girl. However, the principle does remain. Life is life, and is created in the Image of God. It's a sour thing, I know.An age old moral dilemma. I would never want to walk a mile in her shoes.
I don't have all the answers. I feel strongly that elective abortion is inherently wrong. Physicians who perform the montrosities of late term abortions, etc should be convicted...but it's still legal..for now....
And the "it's my body" argument doesnt wash with me- it's not the mother's body that is being destroyed....veep.

quote:

You are right- choices have to be made WHEN the mothers life is in jeopardy.

Choices. A good word. But to state that measn that you have certain standards for your choices but believe the reasons that others give are not moral.

What about a woman who receives an amniocentesis that reveals that the child, if born alive at all, will be born horribly disfigured or severely retarded.

Would you take away the choice of a mother to make that decision, too?

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh- morning after pill? It's an abortion, albeit in a pharmaceutical form.



i kinda have to disagree with this one. it prevents conception

No sir. The morning after pill prevents the FERTILIZED egg from attaching to the uterine wall. The pill is essentially a whopping dose of the same stuff used in birth control pills.

So "conception" has already occurred. Pregnancy has not.

So should this woman go to prison?

ok. thank you kindly for the clarification.
never had a need to know much about that pill, so never bothered to study the mechanics.
thanks for the info

quote:

What about a woman who receives an amniocentesis that reveals that the child, if born alive at all, will be born horribly disfigured or severely retarded.

Would you take away the choice of a mother to make that decision, too?

Would I? I would carry the baby. I can honestly say, with my 5 pregnancies, I have always refused the genetic workups because I would never terminate a pregnancy anyway. Having said that, every human has something to offer, and every life a blessing.So no, I would not say that a genetic anomaly would qualify....
But I certainly empathize with women facing that dilemma. I think that every life is precious. even a severely retarded person can bring love and blessings.......

quote:

But I certainly empathize with women facing that dilemma. I think that every life is precious. even a severely retarded person can bring love and blessings......

I understand that YOU would do. But the question was, if you were in charge of making law, would you take away that choice from someone else?

I note with interest that none of the people who were so passionate about this issue earlier has bother to address this question:

quote:

Couples who cannot conceive go to fertility clinics. These clinics fertilize a number of eggs in a petri dish ("test tube babies").

A few of the fertilized eggs are implanted in the mom. Some of those "take" and some do not.

The remaining eggs in the petri dish are washed down the drain.

Question: Are these fertility clinic doctors guilty of mass murder? If all abortion is "murder" then these guys deserve the death penalty, right?

SK,I'll gladly give my opinion on this question, then duck for shelter cuz it won't be liked...
But I am opposed to IVF. I think that it is just wrong. I don't believe in freezing/storing embryos, etc.
I DO believe in stem cell research from "healthy" stem cells, not embryos.
So it's hard to really say what I think fertility clinics are "guilty of" when they are doing something that IN MY OPINION is wrong to start with.
childless couples? I know, i know...but that is why I am a strong advocate for adoption.
going into hiding... Veep

quote:

But I am opposed to IVF. I think that it is just wrong. I don't believe in freezing/storing embryos, etc.

So are these doctors guilty of mass murderers? Are their patients guilty of being an accessory?

IMO, it all boils down to INTENT. Abortion used solely as a means of birth control is WRONG.

quote:

So are these doctors guilty of mass murderers? Are their patients guilty of being an accessory

YES!
and if I were making the laws, YES i would overturn R v W.
But...I'm not, and never will be.(*sigh)
I would outlaw abortion except when it was a THERAPEUTIC abortion, to save the Mothers life.
I guess that's why I will never be President.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
SK,I'll gladly give my opinion on this question, then duck for shelter cuz it won't be liked...
But I am opposed to IVF. I think that it is just wrong. I don't believe in freezing/storing embryos, etc.
I DO believe in stem cell research from "healthy" stem cells, not embryos.
So it's hard to really say what I think fertility clinics are "guilty of" when they are doing something that IN MY OPINION is wrong to start with.
childless couples? I know, i know...but that is why I am a strong advocate for adoption.
going into hiding... Veep

Actually I'm right there with you. When man starts interfering with which is natural/normal, he should beware of the consequences. This includes much more than abortion.

here is an interesting article i found, i know nothing about the author so dont rag on me for whatever. He concludes through biblical study that life begins at 13 weeks.



There is no Scripture Law against abortion, but it is contrary to God's Plan and, without adequate reason, should be discouraged. Physical danger to the mother, rape and incest are sound reasons.

So much of the abortion argumentation revolves around the unanswered question of when human life actually enters the unborn fetus. Neither physicians nor theologians admit to that knowledge, but it is easily available in our Bible. Human life enters shortly after the tenth week of pregnancy. But can we prove it in the Scriptures? This Bible study is about the timing of new life in the fetus.

First, we ought to agree that the Word of God in our Bible is to be our exclusive acceptable standard of truth, or it is of no use to read further. Solomon had more wisdom and understanding than our contemporary professionals, because he obtained it from God. In Ecclesiastes 11:5, the King James version reads: As thou knowest not what (is) the way of the spirit (how) the bones in the womb of her that is with child ... The Septuagint text reads: Among whom none knows what is the way of the wind as the bones in the womb of a pregnant ... The Young's Literal translation reads almost the same as the King James. The Amplified version reads: As you know not what (is) the way of the wind (or how) (the spirit comes) to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman ... The identical Hebrew word is translated either wind or spirit. The words in parentheses were supplied by the translators to give continuity in English.

Therefore, these Hebrew words are also accurately translated: As you know not how the spirit moves to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman ... Physicians agree that the bones become formed shortly after ten weeks of pregnancy.

Truth is to be established by at least two witnesses. Can this trimester be confirmed in other Scripture? It is written that the Lord, your God, speaks to you by the Prophets and increases your vision, and appeals to you through similitudes (dramas) acted out by the Prophets. (Hos. 12:10). The tense is present-continuous in the Hebrew. Essentially the same declaration is made in Matt. 13:35, Isa. 8:18 and Ps. 78:2.

The Chosen People of ancient Israel entered Canaan ("birth in the low place) 2707 years after the death of Adam (when time reckoning began), according to the Masoretic Text. The 2707 years applied to a people governed by Law, as by the Ten Commandments. According to Bible patterns, the application to the individual would be 270.7 years. But the Lord also uses a day for a year. (Ezek. 4:6) We know the human gestation period is about 271 days! This comparison ought to help establish the validity of patterns.

Abraham's assignment was to bring the nation of Israel to life. For important assignment, the age of accountability and beginning of the subsequent work cycle is at age 12. Lk. 2:32, 49. From Abraham, age 12, to birth of Isaac at Abraham's age of 100 (from the nation's conception to its initiation of new life) was 88 to 89 years. If we think in terms of one day for a year (Ezek. 4:6), the 89 years become 89 days from conception to the initiation of new life. In the human embryo, that would mean 13 weeks of pregnancy before the presence of life. This becomes a second witness!

Look again! The work week beginning with Adam is 6000 years then the Millennium Sabbath just ahead. That 6000 years is divided into a 2/3 part (4000) reaching to Christ's first coming and a 1/3 part (2000) to complete the Plan. The 4000 year portion was also divided. It was a 2/3 part (2667) to the Law. The 1/3 part (1333) followed into Spirit control by Christ. That is the story for these Divine affairs. For human affairs, the 1/3 would come before the 2/3. Abraham was called in 1979 B.C., 2021 A.M (after mortality). The interval to the birth of Christ was 1979 years. The 1/3 portion of 1979 is 660; the 2/3 portion is 1319. The 2021 A.M. call + 660 = 2681 A.M., only 14 years over the 2667 A.M. giving of the Law for order. The 2021 call + 660 + 1319 = 4000 A.M., the birth of Christ. The pattern of the 1/3 and 2/3 division is here validated.

The Bible number for human gestation is 273 days. 1/3 of the 273 is 91 days; 2/3 is 182 days. In terms of application to a people or nation and a year for a day, the 273 becomes 2730 years. 2730 years before the start of Christ's ministry in 4030 A.M. was 1300 A.M. The 1/3 portion of 2730 is 910 years. 1300 A.M. + 910 years = 2210 A.M.

Before Joseph began serving Pharaoh, he represented Christ. Joseph's going down to Egypt out of the Promised Land is the same pattern as the Christ Spirit out of the heaven realm taking up His official ministry on earth. Joseph left in 2214 or 2215 A.M. (only 5 years more than the above 2210 A.M.). The 2/3 portion of the 2730 years is 1820 years. Adding the 1820 to the base of the above 2210 A.M. = 4030 A.M. That was the beginning of Christ's official ministry in the Temple. Jhn. 2:15.

Joseph entered no Temple in Egypt, but we can apply the Joseph pattern to the human spirit leaving the heavenly spirit realm and going down to earth to begin a new assignment. Applied generally to individual human gestation, 1/3 of the 273 becomes 91 days after conception, when the human spirit is assigned to the developing embryo. It does not then enter the unborn body, but impinges itself upon it through an ethereal umbilical cord during the subsequent 182 days of pregnancy. At the end of gestation, the baby is born and the physical umbilical cord is severed. The baby's spirit is pressed into his body at that time to take full charge, though tenuously through the silver cord. If death occurs, the silver cord umbilical is broken and the spirit released. Eccles. 12:6-7, Ps. 58:3, Isa. 48:8 with Gen. 2:7, (after connection established), Zech. 12:1 (spirit pressed in literal).

Thus, if we are willing to take such increase in vision from the Designer and Builder, God Almighty, we can know the unborn fetus is not a human until about the 13th week of pregnancy - and can not be murdered before that time. It is doubtful these patterns from M. Dahl's prophetic revelations can be used effectively as proof with the rank and file, but they may help boost convictions of truth among the few who accept Hos. 12:10 as God's Truth.


C. Gordon Wolcott

Why is it so easy to get an abortion, and so difficult to adopt a child? Why not a direct line from someone who plans an abortion to a person who would love to adopt a child? We just don't use much common sense in this country.

I bet 99% of the same folks who defend abortion rights would have me thrown under a prison (or killed) if I killed a puppy!

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
I bet 99% of the same folks who defend abortion rights would have me thrown under a prison (or killed) if I killed a puppy!

Good point!!

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
I bet 99% of the same folks who defend abortion rights would have me thrown under a prison (or killed) if I killed a puppy!

a puppy is an actual living thing

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
I bet 99% of the same folks who defend abortion rights would have me thrown under a prison (or killed) if I killed a puppy!

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
a puppy is an actual living thing

That baby inside the womb is an actual living human being.
If I didn't already know I was going to Hell when I die, I would hate to stand before God on judgement day knowing I had aborted a baby.

So is a fetus.

Ok morons.

There are people dying in the state next to you and you are arguing about abortion.

Why not do something PROACTIVE and actually save a life that exists RIGHT NOW.

As the waters recede, they are expecting to find more dead bodies. Some people may still be stranded in areas.

Calling all boaters to Middle Tennessee!

www.tennessean.com
www.hon.org Hands on Nashville

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
So is a fetus.

So is not helping people who are drowning in the neighboring state.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock and Roll Means Well:

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
So is a fetus.

So is not helping people who are drowning in the neighboring state.

And you're doing what? I'm pretty sure some people would be turned away if they showed up and tried to help. It takes a coordinated effort to help out these days. You have to be part of a professionally trained team. Not just any old schmuck will do.

I am IN NASHVILLE RIGHT NOW. I live on the East side by the Cumberland.
My husband is employed there and has lost his job temorarily.

I'm the sole income source right now and had to return to work today and I am leaving at 3:30 to go fish out more water from people's homese.

I skipped work yesterday to remove my neighbors belongings from their flooding home!

WHAT AN @#$*)&#$^O)Q*(!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Tomme73:

quote:

Originally posted by Rock and Roll Means Well:

quote:

Originally posted by LE89:
So is a fetus.

So is not helping people who are drowning in the neighboring state.

www.hon.org

Coordinated efforts are right there.

And you're doing what? I'm pretty sure some people would be turned away if they showed up and tried to help. It takes a coordinated effort to help out these days. You have to be part of a professionally trained team. Not just any old schmuck will do.

One pregnant lady had to give birth on a canoe to the West of Nashville.

I'm sure there are other pregnant women who could use some help - they probably lost everything they had received at baby showers and from family/friends.

If the nation only new how BAD this really is! Please please look at the www.tennessean.com and volunteer if you can.

Volunteering can include sending supplies and making hygeine packages to be delivered up here. www.hon.org

quote:

Originally posted by Rock and Roll Means Well:
I am IN NASHVILLE RIGHT NOW. I live on the East side by the Cumberland.
My husband is employed there and has lost his job temorarily.

I'm the sole income source right now and had to return to work today and I am leaving at 3:30 to go fish out more water from people's homese.

I skipped work yesterday to remove my neighbors belongings from their flooding home!

WHAT AN @#$*)&#$^O)Q*(!!!!!!!!

Where in your posts have you said how you were helping until asked? I wasn't trying to be ugly. All you've done is criticize others who were discussing abortion in an abortion thread.
The majority of the comments on this forum are from people who live in THIS area and read OUR local paper, either newsprint or online.
If you want to raise awareness about an issue, start another thread. Don't make attacks in one that's entirely unrelated. Oh, wait. You already started another thread.
I absolutely LOVE Nashville and hate to see this happening. I think it's great that you've helped.

We're being largely ignored by 90% of the media outlets. CNN has FINALLY started to mention it once.

I'm running on 6 hours of sleep in 2 days.

There are pregnant women up here, so in a way it is very relevant. Not to mention all the young children who lost everything. Our water supply may be compromised and we've lost 15% capacity so far. Nashville has one working water plant. The other is under water. The one working almost flooded today and was within a foot of flooding.

Hospitals are very much at risk right now with so many power outages and water issues. It's a complete mess.

Now is the time that people can make a huge difference - men, women, babies, and animals

I got mad reading it because I'm watching people lose everything and no one knows. I'm only one person and I can't save everyone but groups of people can!

While stuck at work, I'm trying to raise awarenesss on every message board that I am a member of including TD. After work, back at it 150%.

The Shoals is 2.5 hours away and churches and schools could mobilize teams to help or help bring in water and supplies.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock and Roll Means
I'm running on 6 hours of sleep in 2 days.
Now is the time that people can make a huge difference - men, women, babies, and animals

I got mad reading it because I'm watching people lose everything and no one knows. I'm only one person and I can't save everyone but groups of people can!
While stuck at work, I'm trying to raise awarenesss on every message board that I am a member of including TD.
The Shoals is 2.5 hours away and churches and schools could mobilize teams to help or help bring in water and supplies.

Coming on here & calling people "morons" & your little remark "WHAT AN @#$*)&#$^O)Q*(!!!!!!!!" isn't making you look so good.
I've seen what's happening in Nashville on the news for the last two days, so the word is getting out. From what I've heard they are asking people to stay out.
You say you can't save everyone but I've seen on the news many more than one helping.
Are we supposed to start applauding now
since you say you are the only one helping?

I only occasionally read this forum, but holy-moly.

To rock n roll: I have no doubt that you are stressed to the max, but you should probably take a step back and access the situation with your name calling. It could turn some people off to helping, especially when most people like to generalize and lump every one into a certain category.

You are calling people "morons" because they are posting on a message board about a certain subject not pertaining to a crisis in the next state? I don't get it. Did you ever post on a message board during Katrina about a different subject other than what was going on in NOLA? Have you over posted on a message board about any other subject when your neighboring state, Kentucky, has on of the most poverty stricken areas with children only existing on the meal that they receive at school?

I hate very much the stress and hell that you are going through. But it just doesn't come across good, IMHO, to call people degrading names in one breath and follow that up by asking for help. I know it's not received as much coverage on the news with the terrorist guy, but there are some good people in the shoals area who are already planning donation drop offs.