Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion "Republican Ted Haggard Starts A Gay Church" begun by NoBlueDog, our new Forum Friend, Dustin Smith, wants to play psychologist and attempts to use reverse logic on me. Unfortunately, he never bothered reading my post before he wrote a response. Since he has chosen to make an accusation against me, I have chosen to take this opportunity to share this with all of our Religion Forum Friends, rather than bury it in the dust of that ongoing discussion. For that reason, I am posting this as a new discussion -- I want everyone to read it.

Dustin, in my earlier post, I wrote, "Yes, Haggard has a problem with homosexuality. However, being homosexual is not a sin; living an active homosexual lifestyle is what goes against Biblical teaching. We all are sinners. Homosexuality is only one of the sins. But, when we turn for our sins and turn to follow Christ; we are forgiven. And, from all outward appearances -- that is what Ted Haggard has done."

And, Dustin responds, "Bill, Bill, Bill...... Your single paragraph above should be enough to prove to YOURSELF that you are gay. I don't care either way -- but I would bet my mother's life that you are gay. Why? Because, believe it or not Bill, we do not all fight the desire to be gay, because WE DON'T HAVE TO. Most of us are legitimately straight and have been since the day we were born, because that's the way it works. However, YOU were born gay and you feel unbelievably guilty about it because your religion tells you it's wrong. It's silly to say that homosexuality is a sin within us all. It's not, Bill. It's a FACT about YOU....and simply put, there's nothing wrong with you (other than your intelligence and just about everything else unrelated to your sexual preference)."

Well, Dustin, I see that you have a reading problem. Are you suffering from Dyslexia -- or do you have other problems with concentration. Possibly your problem is ADHD {Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder)? Or possibly you just read into another's writing what YOU want it to say -- regardless of what is written. That, my Friend, is the greater sickness than dyslexia or ADHD; for it is a condition which your self-centered "ME" frame of mind has created.

Let's take a look at what I wrote: "We all are sinners. Homosexuality is only one of the sins. But, when we turn for our sins and turn to follow Christ; we are forgiven."

First phrase: "We all are sinners." No one except an atheist or secularist can deny this; for it is taught in the Bible, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Next phrase: "Homosexuality is only one of the sins." Once again, a fact which no one except an atheist or secularist can deny.

1 Timothy 1:9-11, "Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the unGodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

In these two Scripture passages, the apostle Paul lays out quite a list of sins -- only one of which is homosexuality. However, there is nothing there which would say that any one sin is greater than another. As a matter of fact, Paul tells us that folks guilty of any or all of these sins WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. That includes the person who steals a pencil and does not repent and turn from his life of thievery -- as well as the homosexual who will not repent and turn from his/her worldly lifestyle of homosexuality.

And, the third phrase: "But, when we turn for our sins and turn to follow Christ; we are forgiven." In 1 Corinthians 6:11 Paul gives us our eternal escape clause: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Yes, Paul has given us an escape clause. If one is washed in the blood of the Lamb, sanctified, i.e, set aside for Christ -- we are justified (just as if I never sinned), and named among those who do HAVE eternal life in Christ.

That, Dustin, if you had read what I had written, without your own personal agenda tainting your thoughts -- is what you would have learned.

Next, you tell me, "You have had homosexual thoughts since you were a child (as you clearly wrote in another post). You have known your whole life that you were gay, and it freaks you out, because your religion has taught you that it's wrong to be gay and that gay people burn in hell for eternity."

I challenge you to produce that post. But, am I concerned about every gay person who will not turn from his/her worldly, self desire centered, lifestyle -- and turn to follow Jesus Christ? Yes. I am very concerned for them; for, like any other sinful, worldly lifestyle -- if they will not turn from that lifestyle and turn to follow Jesus Christ, i.e., repent -- they are condemning themselves to an eternal life in hell. And, my Friend, I would not wish that on anyone.

Then, you tell me, "So what do you do? You spend your whole life trying to ignore the fact that you're gay. And to help ease your internal pain & suffering, you tell yourself silly stuff like 'being gay isn't a sin, only pursuing a homosexual lifestyle is.' And so, you have lived your whole life as a closet homosexual, going so far as to marry and have kids.....all because you're scared stupid of this make-believe superman whom you call 'God.'"

Yes, I did write, "However, being homosexual is not a sin; living an active homosexual lifestyle is what goes against Biblical teaching." And, you will find that to be Biblically true. We all sin. 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

But, repentance is turning from that sinful lifestyle -- and turning to follow Jesus Christ. When a person repents and turns to follow Jesus Christ; does this mean that he/she will never have the desire to commit that sin, or other sins, again? No. It means that when we turn from our sinful lifestyle, turn to follow Jesus Christ -- His blood, His righteousness, has covered ALL our sins so that God does not see them. God cannot look upon sin, but, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And, we know, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

You tell me, "It's silly and pathetic, Bill. It's FINE that you're gay. PLEASE stop trying to prove to your god (and to everyone else) that you're not gay. YOU ARE GAY."

If by GAY, you mean that I have found happiness and joy in my Lord Jesus Christ -- you are right. If you mean that I have any desire to follow the homosexual lifestyle -- sorry, my Friend, that "gay agenda" tactic sank with the Titanic.

My Friend, in the last three plus years on the Religion Forum, I have survived the attacks of athiests, secularists, secular humanists, New Agers, folks from cult churches, gays, and a few others -- most of whom have given up and moved on or have been invited to move on by the moderators. So, your feeble attempt to call me names pales in comparison to what I have already been called on this Forum. But, regardless, I do welcome you to the Religion Forum.

Finally, you tell me, "You're going to waste what little time you have left worrying about stupid crap like this, and you'll be dead before you know it. And for what? Nothing. You wasted your whole life. Dustin."

My Friend, you have just described the difference between a Christian believer and an atheist/secularist. An atheist and secularist, which I presume you to be one or the other, or both -- believes that this short life is all we have -- and, then into nothingness, into oblivion.

Sorry, Dustin, but, you are wrong. As all Christian believers, and many non-believers, KNOW -- when Jesus Christ died on the cross He "paid in full" our sin debt to God the Father. He was the "once for all" blood sacrifice which was required by the perfect justice of God for Adam's disobedience and for our inherited sin nature. No animal sacrifice could do this; but, He has paid this debt in full for us. All we have to do is to believe and accept His "free gift" of eternal salvation.

And, when He rose from the grave, resurrected -- that event assured that ALL mortal humans WILL also resurrect into eternal life. The only question left is -- where will YOU spend that eternal life? There are only two choices: heaven with God -- or hell with Satan.

You see, Dustin, He has given all of us "free will" -- the free will to choose to follow Jesus Christ -- or the free will to deny Jesus Christ. But, YOU have to make that choice. No one can make it for you. And, not choosing IS choosing; for the Default Choice is HELL.

No, Dustin, this short, often miserable life is NOT all there is -- we ALL are immortal beings, we all will live eternally. So, my Friend, choose wisely. For eternity is a very, very long time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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One thing about it Bill, you take any excuse for saying I didn't hear the Gospel away.

Dustin think about one other thing also. You can do this or attempt to, whether you are Christian or Atheist, Agnostic or whatever .... even scientific in thinking.

Eternity! Eternity PAST and Eternity Future. IF such exist, and there is no real proof that it doesn't then time really is negated. How do you measure time against Eternity. It can be argued that we all had a start but there is no way to define Eternity whether looking back (past) or looking ahead (future) as these are concepts that the human (limited) mind cannot comprehend.

We all will spend eternity somewhere and with such great consequences would it not be at least "intelligent" to consider all alternatives rather than ceremonially dismissing that which you don't know or understand, aka, the Spiritual.
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:


Eternity! Eternity PAST and Eternity Future. IF such exist, and there is no real proof that it doesn't then time really is negated. How do you measure time against Eternity. It can be argued that we all had a start but there is no way to define Eternity whether looking back (past) or looking ahead (future) as these are concepts that the human (limited) mind cannot comprehend.

We all will spend eternity somewhere and with such great consequences would it not be at least "intelligent" to consider all alternatives rather than ceremonially dismissing that which you don't know or understand, aka, the Spiritual.



Hmm... In my experience... Most spiritual people are spiritual because they can't, don't or won't understand what makes sense to "scientific-thinkers."

However I do entertain the possibility that there could be some "master plan" or at least a "set-and-forget" plan for us. I DO believe it's unlikely, but I guess it could be possible.
I don't have a lot to go on about finding answers except for ultra-religious simpletons and zealously bleating sheep.
Oh yeah...and old guys who are nearing the end of the ol' "sin track" and now they wanna get into "heaven."
I guess I'll just stick with the attitude I've been using. "I reckon I'll find out when I get there. Meanwhile, I'll just keep trying to do the next right thing."

Yeah, I'm guessing too. Just like you are. 'Cept I didn't get a hit off that Burning Bush(tm) and a copy of King James' Fairy Tales first. Wink
concerning this issue here is a quote from the greatest cyclist to ever live, Lance Armstrong, a man who was given no chance at life and prevailed.

"I wished hard, but I didn't pray. I had developed a certain distrust of organized religion growing up, but I felt I had the capacity to be a spiritual person, and to hold some fervent beliefs. Quite simply, I believed I had a responsiblity to be a good person, and that meant fair, honest, hardworking, and honorable. If I did that, if I was good to my family, true to my friends, if I gave back to my community or to some cause, if I wasn't a liar, a cheat, or a thief, then I believed that should be enough. At the end of the day, if there was indeed some Body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life, not on whether I believed in a certain book, or whether I'd been baptized. If there was indeed a God at the end of my days, I hoped he didn't say, "But you were never a Christian, so you're going the other way from heaven." If so, I was going to reply, "You know what? You're right. Fine.""
Road Puppy, at least you are seemingly a "thinking individual" who at least hasn't totally closed off his mind to possibilities. I think it's also natural, whether very old or older to contemplate what happens at or after death and whether there is something that we, someone, or people have "missed". Sure that's the time most contemplate that but I believe that the scriptures are quite plain on that point in that God offers salvation, saving grace, when He enables a person to understand their need via conviction of His Holy Spirit and not just when a human decides maybe I want to believe this now and get my get out of "hell" ticket stamped.

Even among Christians there are vastly different beliefs based upon the same Scriptural source (The Bible). I feel that most "Science orientated" individuals have a hard time with Religion, God, or Christianity, because they are based upon Spiritual things, Spiritual Realms etc where there is no Physical just like in my analogy of time with relation to Eternity there is no relation of the physical to the Spiritual.

Regardless of your, my or other's views or beliefs it's all a matter of FAITH on everyone's part. Even to choose not to believe or accept the Spiritual it's still Faith or acceptance/belief in that which one cannot personally know, touch, or prove.

My only request/advice/suggestion is whatever path you choose to go whether you choose to investigate, personally, or consider the Spiritual and your relation to God or Science whether you or others on this board that call themselves Atheist, Agnostic, or just seekers then do not let me or other biased individuals effect your quest. Many are so turned off by Christians (all kinds) that sometimes appear as arrogant or other negative connotations to the point that they, alone, by their actions cause such a negative reaction that decisions aren't made upon a person's own searching but rather out of reaction to someone that represents the Christian side of the spectrum. You see I do feel that God ( and yes I believe in God and that He exist .. not as some white headed bearded old man but rather a Spirit Force greater than anyone human can ever understand or comprehend) is alive and real and interacts with Humans and will make Himself known to people in a way that there is no ambiguity and in a way sufficient that no question remains. At that time and at that time only, do I believe, is man/woman's ability to make a personal faith decision that will effect their Spiritual destiny and Spiritual destination. I do feel that comes for God direct and not through some other person although I do feel that God uses people and His creation to minister for His purposes but ultimately I believe God deals with each individual, that seeks Him, on His own terms and times.

Thank you for your post/response.

Regarding ThomasWayne's post, about Lance Armstrong, I will only say ... and remember this is my belief only from what I understand of the Scriptures and our eternal destiny, I believe that the Scriptures teach that when we enter the afterlife, eternity future, however you wish to call it, that I believe we enter it Spiritually. That means there is no body, no legs, no color, no sex, no origin but we will have a Spiritual Body. In that there is nothing that indicates that or memory or how much of our memories go with us, how much of our intellect remains or even our ability to humanly reason as we do now. We will be in a Spiritual existence and quite possibly one where we cannot talk as we do now so that potential dialog couldn't exist. At that time I believe we will be on God's terms, not ours and we will receive credit or punishment for our decisions made while we have that ability to think and reason according to that which God has provided us with .. His Scriptures and testimony of His Saints (Saints being those that have accepted and believed in God ... Christians ... etc.
what if one was never taught about God and Jesus, but they lived a good life, they were a good person. they go to hell by default? kind of like the Neanderthals from thousands of years ago? i mean THEY definitely didnt have a church to attend, or a bible to read from, they were never baptized. Jesus wasn't born yet, so they couldn't accept him as their savior. so explain that. it's like if i moved to the woods and lived like a savage and never told or taught my son anything about God or religion, he'd go to hell too? i know God is very unfair but **** if you're not even given a chance is BS.
TW- I believe God will judge these and other peoples in His True, perfect, and fair way and thru their circumstances.

The easy way to look at this is-

if I'm not right, I lose nothing.
If I am right, I gain Everything!
quote:
Originally posted by DustinSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Next, you tell me, "You have had homosexual thoughts since you were a child (as you clearly wrote in another post). You have known your whole life that you were gay, and it freaks you out, because your religion has taught you that it's wrong to be gay and that gay people burn in hell for eternity."

I challenge you to produce that post.

Here you go, homo. Read your first post.

http://forums.timesdaily.com/e...771054867/m/10810108

Good, Dustin,

Now, let's let everyone read the post on which YOU base your statement:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Could I Have Chosen To Be Homosexual?
Posted 17 April 2010 05:49 PM

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the Religion Forum discussion I began titled "Are Folks Born Gay? - And Do Morals Save Us?" -- my Friend, Sofa, asked me, "Here is a question that Bill will not answer: Bill, were you born heterosexual (assuming you are, that is). If so, could you "choose" be become gay?"

Actually, I was born, i.e., created in the image of God -- but, alas, my earliest ancestors, Adam and Eve, made a bad choice in the Garden of Eden -- and, I was born with a defect, a sin nature. Yet, even with that -- I still retained enough of the God created person, with the God given genes -- to make me heterosexual.

How do I know this? Well, since God created us man and woman; since God ordained and officiated at the very first wedding -- one man and one woman -- we know that this is His format and His plan for marriage, for creating and growing the family. And, the family is the foundation of the God created mankind.

Could I have "chosen" to live the homosexual lifestyle? Yes. But, praise God, I did not.

But, let's rewind the tape and see what could have happened when I was a young kid. Suppose I had been abused or molested by an adult as a child. This could have warped my sense of being, my self image, to the point that I wanted to avoid sexual relations with women -- or felt inadequate to have a relationship with a woman. And, the alternative would have been a relationship with a man -- like running into a dark cave to avoid the boogie man who had abused me -- but, instead, becoming him.

As a young man, I did have incidents which could have affected me negatively. When I was about twelve, I was hitch hiking in my home town of Sheffield. Two men in their twenties picked me up. It was not until I was in the car that I realized they were drunk. As we were driving down Jackson Highway, we passed a girl walking -- and one of them asked, in a crude manner, if I had ever been with a girl. Of course, I said no. One turned to the other and said, "This boy is no good. We should just kill him." They most likely were just joking -- but, how many times, with people who are drunk, have jokes turned into reality? Fortunately, I was sitting by the door and when we stopped for a red light, I jumped out and ran.

Fast forward, I was a junior in high school -- and, yes, still a virgin. Three times in less than two months, while hitch hiking, I was approached by homosexual men. This began to scare me; making me wonder if something was wrong with me, that I attracted these kind of people. The third one really stuck in my mind. I was hitch hiking from Florence and a rather rotund man in a new Buick picked me up. When we got into Sheffield, he drove to the Sheffield Hotel on Montgomery Avenue (which later became a hospital) -- and when he parked, he asked me to go into the restroom with him, telling me, "I will make you feel good."

I told him to stuff it -- and I ran like crazy to the Pool Hall across the street from the Colbert Theater on Montgomery Avenue. This third attempt had made me really feel dirty; had actually made me begin to wonder if something were wrong with me -- that, three times in just a few months -- homosexual men had approached me. I wanted to be with my pool hall friend who, to me at that time -- were normal.

The following year, my senior year at Sheffield High, I was on the varsity basketball team. We played a game against a team in another town, in their gymnasium. After the game, we showered, and I was the first to come back into the gym. Our coach, Ray Collins, was standing in the middle of the gym talking with the principal of that school. And, guess what? Yes, it was the same rotund homosexual who had tried to molest me the year before.

When I saw him, I felt dirty again -- but, as a young boy, I was too afraid to tell Coach Collins or to report the man. Now, I wonder how many other boys I allowed to be molested because I was too afraid to report this man who was in charge of all the students at that school. I have often wondered, now that it is too late to change anything -- how many boys were led into a life of homosexuality because they were too afraid to say no to that homosexual high school principal. And, I have wondered how all this would have changed if I had just had the courage to report him.

Fast forward a bunch of years. I am now twenty-five and attending acting school at the Theater of Arts in Santa Monica, California. One evening as we were just sitting around chatting, one of our teachers who had been in Hollywood for many years, told of personally knowing James Dean. His story of Dean's accidental death in his sports car was quite different from what we normally hear.

According to him, James Dean, when he was a young, aspiring actor from Indiana, had come under the influence of a homosexual casting agent. Wanting to make it as an actor -- Dean went along with this man's seductions -- but, over the years, became very depressed because of the lifestyle he was now living. According to this teacher who had known James Dean -- he strongly believed that Dean recklessly caused the accident which took his life -- his escape from the homosexual lifestyle he had been lured into through his ambition. And, if you ever read the report of Dean's accident -- he was driving his Porche sports car at very high and dangerous speeds on a narrow road near Paso Robles, California. This may or may not be true. I am only telling you what my acting teacher in the mid-1960s told us. But, it does ring true when I consider the experiences of my youth.

So, Sofa, could I have chosen to go into the homosexual lifestyle? Yes, anyone could -- if life circumstances were such that one wanted to, or needed to, escape from the reality of their current life.

And, this is why we, both Christian believers and secular non-believers, who have been fortunate enough to not have been pulled into the homosexual lifestyle -- sincerely need to tell our Friends who are caught up in this unnatural lifestyle, "There is another way! There is a way out of that lifestyle. And, it can start with Jesus Christ." They may or may not believe you. But, if only one is brought back from the precipice, from the edge of darkness -- it is worth the effort.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dustin, all this proves is that you have either a reading problem or a comprehension problem. But, you can take a remedial reading class to help you read better. And, there are medications to help with comprehension and lack of concentration problems. I pray you will avail yourself of this direly needed assistance.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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For the first time ever I (somewhat) agree with Bill!!!! Maybe we truly are living in the end times. Smiler

Reading what Bill posted did not say to me "Bill is gay" I really don't understand how Dustin got that message from Bill's post.

However (here comes the somewhat part) I also know that there are many many gay's out there that never had these kinds of experiences as a young person that Bill describes. I agree that being molested could have an impact that could lead to behavior not normal for the victim. Just like young girls who are molested by fathers, uncles, preachers, when they are children and they grow up to be strippers and porn stars. Not all of them do, but a lot of them will tell you that they were molested so I am sure it had an influence on their adult lives. Then you have others who were just born that way. I have a cousin that I am very close to. I am a few years older than him and I can remember even when he was a very small child (2 or 3) and he did not want to play with the boys he wanted to be with us girls. He says now that he never really identified with young boys but instead felt he was a girl inside from as long as he can remember. He was never molested. No one ever made homosexual advances to him when he was a child. He has never been with a woman ever. He says it makes him sick to think about being with a woman sexually. HE WAS BORN GAY. It happens Bill. Why should he lie to himself and everyone else? If there is a god why did he make people like my cousin and then tell them they are a sin? Makes no sense to me. I am in no way saying that all homosexuals feel exactly like my cousin does. I know some that are very happy with there gender and wouldn't change being a male (or female) but still are attracted to the same sex.

Also, the coach you were given a ride by was not a homosexual...he was a child predator. His sickness just leaned towards boys. More than likely he had no interest in adult men. As a young girl I had a few experiences similar to yours with older men. Luckily nothing seriously bad ever happened to me. But like you it made an impact on me and I remember those men still to this day. Very scary how many child molesters lurk in our communities. Homosexuals, and child molesters are not the same thing.
My dear, wise Jank,

Perhaps Dustin has made the reasonable connection of the relationship between one's obsession with homosexuality and the tendency to be homosexual.

I'm a straight man. I could care little less about homosexuality. It's certainly far from an obsession with me.

But let us examine the case of the "Reverend" Ted Haggard, of Colorado. He railed for years about the evils of homosexuality, and turned out to be homosexual himself. He's one of several examples of this behavior. Haggard's compulsion to attack homosexuality was a cover for his own homosexuality. Without such a reason for such a compulsion, who really cares that much?

Shakespeare said it long ago: Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I'm not saying Bill is homosexual, I will say he protests quite a lot. Why?
To get the megachurch bucks, aka, "tithes and love offerings," one must have a gimmick. Jan Crouch does it in her giant baby doll dresses, face lifts, and Viennese cat house circa 1878 decor to do it. John Hagee does it with his "Israel and End Times" flip charts and gigantic suits. Rexella the secret dominatrix does it with her oohs and ahas as her husband reads disjointed news clips.
Billy has the gays.
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
My dear, wise Jank,

Perhaps Dustin has made the reasonable connection of the relationship between one's obsession with homosexuality and the tendency to be homosexual.

I'm a straight man. I could care little less about homosexuality. It's certainly far from an obsession with me.

But let us examine the case of the "Reverend" Ted Haggard, of Colorado. He railed for years about the evils of homosexuality, and turned out to be homosexual himself. He's one of several examples of this behavior. Haggard's compulsion to attack homosexuality was a cover for his own homosexuality. Without such a reason for such a compulsion, who really cares that much?

Shakespeare said it long ago: Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I'm not saying Bill is homosexual, I will say he protests quite a lot. Why?


Well Aude I wish I had of read the "Gays in the Military" thread first. I actually see now why Dustin was accusing Bill of being closeted homosexual. I have never heard of any heterosexual man have so many homosexual men come on to him as Bill. I have friends that are gay and they say that they can usually pick up a vibe from other homosexuals. Even then they are pretty careful about approaching that person. They have to be almost positive before saying anything to them. Reason? Even in todays society it can get your a** whooped if they are not. In the 50's I would think that would have been even more true...Very interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
My dear, wise Jank,

Perhaps Dustin has made the reasonable connection of the relationship between one's obsession with homosexuality and the tendency to be homosexual.

I'm a straight man. I could care little less about homosexuality. It's certainly far from an obsession with me.

But let us examine the case of the "Reverend" Ted Haggard, of Colorado. He railed for years about the evils of homosexuality, and turned out to be homosexual himself. He's one of several examples of this behavior. Haggard's compulsion to attack homosexuality was a cover for his own homosexuality. Without such a reason for such a compulsion, who really cares that much?

Shakespeare said it long ago: Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I'm not saying Bill is homosexual, I will say he protests quite a lot. Why?


Well Aude I wish I had of read the "Gays in the Military" thread first. I actually see now why Dustin was accusing Bill of being closeted homosexual. I have never heard of any heterosexual man have so many homosexual men come on to him as Bill. I have friends that are gay and they say that they can usually pick up a vibe from other homosexuals. Even then they are pretty careful about approaching that person. They have to be almost positive before saying anything to them. Reason? Even in todays society it can get your a** whooped if they are not. In the 50's I would think that would have been even more true...Very interesting.


Sorry BJBG Smiler I just realized that I called you Aude. Not an insult though, to me you are both very intelligent and informative people.

Smiler
Hi Jan,

You tell us, "However (here comes the somewhat part) I also know that there are many many gay's out there that never had these kinds of experiences as a young person that Bill describes. I agree that being molested could have an impact that could lead to behavior not normal for the victim."

I am not saying that all people who are gay are that way because they were molested. Some yes; some for other reasons. There are many societal causes for homosexuality. My wife's cousin, who used to live with us, was extremely effeminate, if not gay. I will not say he is gay -- although he gave every indication of it. He was not molested. His father deserted his mother and left her to take care of a fairly large family. He grew up with only female family members; no father figure -- and the only father figure he has was one who would desert his family. I have seen this happen to several men who became gay. There is not just one reason why a person will turn to his/her own gender for sexual pleasure.

Then, you tell us, "Just like young girls who are molested by fathers, uncles, preachers, when they are children and they grow up to be strippers and porn stars. Not all of them do, but a lot of them will tell you that they were molested so I am sure it had an influence on their adult lives."

Yes, this can most certainly cause the young girl to turn from gross men and turn to more caring female partners -- or to more destructive behavior such as prostitution or pornography. Yet, as you say, not all. I have a close friend who, as a young girl, was molested by her grandfather and then by her father. She is today a well adjusted wife and mother.

Yet, a girl I dated in the 1960s, while not becoming a lesbian, hooker, or porno star -- did not turn out as well. She has had psychological problems most of her life. This lady was physically raped by a 24 year old cousin when she was only 6 years old. Then, at 10, she was molested by her grandfather. And, at 12, by her own father. Needless to say, this young lady was a mess -- psychologically. Yet, she did not become a lesbian.

However, I am sure that many girls do just as you said -- either in rebellion, or as an escape -- turn to stripping, prostitution, and/or pornography. At time, prostitutes will tend to be lesbian, only using their male customers out of spite, revenge, or anger.

There are many reason why a person will turn to homosexuality or lesbianism. But, being born gay is not one of them.

Next, you tell us, "Then you have others who were just born that way. I have a cousin that I am very close to. I am a few years older than him and I can remember even when he was a very small child (2 or 3) and he did not want to play with the boys he wanted to be with us girls. He says now that he never really identified with young boys but instead felt he was a girl inside from as long as he can remember. He was never molested. No one ever made homosexual advances to him when he was a child. He has never been with a woman ever. He says it makes him sick to think about being with a woman sexually. HE WAS BORN GAY. It happens Bill."

Jan, if you really believe that God would declare homosexuality to be abominable, detestable, not normal, etc. -- and then purposely create people to be that -- then, you and I are worshiping different Gods. For, I know my God would not be that cruel.

The Bible tells us that God will not test us. How big a test would that be -- to create a person in a condition which He hates?

You tell us, "Why should he lie to himself and everyone else? If there is a God why did he make people like my cousin and then tell them they are a sin? Makes no sense to me. I am in no way saying that all homosexuals feel exactly like my cousin does. I know some that are very happy with there gender and wouldn't change being a male (or female) but still are attracted to the same sex."

Jan, very likely, your cousin does believe that God created him that way. But, because he thinks this does not make it true. Common sense tells us that God would NOT create anyone to be abominable in His sight. He is not a cruel God -- and that, most certainly, would be a cruel thing to do to anyone.

Most likely, something happened early in your cousin's life, which he may not remember, which has caused him to feel this way. Many people cannot remember events in their early life. I am blessed that God has given me a very good memory. Starting when I was about three years old; events are still vivid in my memory -- and I am almost 73 now. Yet, when I talk with others -- most folks, even those many years younger than me, have no recall at all of their younger years.

Yet, with friends I have recently reconnected with on Facebook -- I can recall and write in great detail things we did in 1955, 56, 57. I share photos and details from those years -- and, these friends who are much younger than me -- are thrilled that I can tell them in such detail about those years. However, my point is this -- most people do not have this kind of recall or memory. So, if something happened at a young age, especially something traumatic -- very likely their minds have blocked it out, or they just can't remember. This makes a lot more sense than thinking that God has played a cruel joke on them.

Then, you tell me, "Also, the coach you were given a ride by was not a homosexual...he was a child predator. His sickness just leaned towards boys. More than likely he had no interest in adult men. As a young girl I had a few experiences similar to yours with older men. Luckily nothing seriously bad ever happened to me. But like you, it made an impact on me and I remember those men still to this day. Very scary how many child molesters lurk in our communities. Homosexuals, and child molesters are not the same thing."

That could be. However, the way this man tried to get me into the men's room of his hotel sure made me think he was homosexual. Either way -- he definitely should not have been principal at that high school.

You say, "Homosexuals and child molesters are not the same thing."

That is true. A person could just have an attraction to children of either gender. And, I am not sure which is worse -- the homosexual who goes after young boys -- or the predator/pedophile who goes after any child. I do not believe in capital punishment and cannot kill an animal -- not even a rat, which I hate with a passion. Yet, if I caught a man raping a girl or woman -- or molesting a child, boy or girl -- I could do great bodily harm to this person.

Jan, in summary, we do not know all the reasons a person becomes homosexual or lesbian -- and I am sure that person has no idea why he/she became gay. However, the one thing we must rule out is that God did this.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Well Aude I wish I had of read the "Gays in the Military" thread first. I actually see now why Dustin was accusing Bill of being closeted homosexual. I have never heard of any heterosexual man have so many homosexual men come on to him as Bill.

Hi Jan,

Using your logic, if an attractive woman has a lot of men hitting on her -- that makes her a prostitute -- right?

I don't think so.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Well Aude I wish I had of read the "Gays in the Military" thread first. I actually see now why Dustin was accusing Bill of being closeted homosexual. I have never heard of any heterosexual man have so many homosexual men come on to him as Bill.

Hi Jan,

Using your logic, if an attractive woman has a lot of men hitting on her -- that makes her a prostitute -- right?

I don't think so.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


No Bill,

That would be your logic. I guess. If you can call that logic. I can't quite figure out how that would make her a prostitute. However if these men were offering her money in exchange for sex then I might wonder what in the world she is doing that would make this so. If I was being offered money for sex on a steady basis then I might take a look at what I am wearing and make sure I wasn't standing on a questionable street corner.

See how that works...? If you have been approached ALOT by gay men trying to get you to have sex with them I would ask "What are you doing to lead them to believe you would do that?"

Of the gay people I know, none of them would approach a heterosexual and try and coerce them into sex. There are many reasons why. First they have no need to do this. Second it could lead to some very serious violence from some people. Have you ever heard the term Gaydar? If not I will explain. Most homosexuals can tell who is and who is not gay. It is similar to being in a bar and picking up signs from someone across the room that they are interested in you. Its in the body language. I had a friend tell me that he can tell if another man is gay in the first 5 minutes of meeting him. He said a heterosexual man never looks at him the same way that a homosexual man does and he has never been wrong. So it is quite interesting that you have had so many homosexual men approach you. I still say that the basketball coach was just a straight up child predator. Probably had a wife at home and would have been fighting mad if anyone had said he was gay. He was a sick individual. I'm not saying there is no such thing as a homosexual child molester but I am saying that their homosexuality is NOT the reason they are attracted to children. I am heterosexual but that doesn't mean I find 12 year old boys sexy or that I would ever want to have sex with one. They are children in my eyes just as they would be to any normal homosexual man.
Bill,

Your reply was so long I didn't want to quote the whole thing again.

My cousin was born just as he is today. With a very feminine demeanor and a feeling that he should have been a girl. Whether you want to believe this or not is your right. However I can tell you that he had 2 other brothers one older and one younger that are not like him at all. We grew up on the same road and spent most of our time together. Nothing happened to him as a baby or otherwise that would have made him feel like a girl or want to be a girl. It was just so.

How do you explain hermaphrodites? What was god's plan for them?

I met a man a few years back that had a child born that had both sex organs. Surgery was performed very soon after birth. They choose for the child to grow up as a girl. I met her once and she was one of the biggest tomboys I had ever met. However she had already developed breast and looked very female. When she is old enough to marry if she marries a man will she be a homosexual? At birth she had the parts of both. If she forms a relationship with a woman is she a lesbian? What was your god thinking....?
Hi Jan,

You tell me, "Bill, Your reply was so long I didn't want to quote the whole thing again."

That is great. I wish others would do the same and quit posting these long, long chain of posts. Most often, we can shorten it down to just that to which we are responding -- and make the reading easier for everyone. I applaud you for this.

You tell me, "My cousin was born just as he is today. With a very feminine demeanor and a feeling that he should have been a girl. Whether you want to believe this or not is your right. However I can tell you that he had 2 other brothers one older and one younger that are not like him at all. We grew up on the same road and spent most of our time together. Nothing happened to him as a baby or otherwise that would have made him feel like a girl or want to be a girl. It was just so."

Jan, I do not know the age difference between you and your cousin; but, from your comments I would guess that you are fairly close in age. Can you honestly tell me that you looked at this newly born baby and knew that even though he was born male -- he was really a girl inside? Yes, maybe when he began to grow he was more effeminate, more frail, than other kids -- but, that does not make him homosexual. When I was young, we had effeminate boys in our neighborhood and in our schools. There was one in my high school class. But, I do not believe he was gay. An effeminate boy is not necessarily homosexual. However, the way he is treated in these young years can tend to cause him to lean one way or another. But, no, God would not do this to a child.

You ask, "How do you explain hermaphrodites? What was god's plan for them?"

This is a type of birth defect -- much like Down's Syndrome and other birth defects. With Down's Syndrome and similar defects; it is more obvious to others. Yet, a person born as a hermaphrodite has a great burden to carry -- for he/she sees this abnormality; but, others do not. It makes their life a hell. When I was a young boy in Sheffield, there was a lady who lived near us who was a hermaphrodite. She was beautiful and she was married -- yet, one day she drank lye and killed herself. Such a waste; but, how are we to know what hell she was living in private?

Yet these are birth defects. Birth defects came into being as man's gene pool was weakened through many generations of inter-familial marriage and through millennia of man living under the sin curse inherited from Adam.

However, homosexuality is not a birth defect -- is it? Are you saying that a person can be born with a birth defect which causes homosexuality? All birth defects I know of have been identified by medical science and they know pretty much what causes them, even though they have not been able to prevent them yet. However, medical science has never identified a gay gene or any abnormal gene which causes homosexuality. So, in this we are really talking apples and oranges.

Then, you tell me, "I met a man a few years back that had a child born that had both sex organs. Surgery was performed very soon after birth. They choose for the child to grow up as a girl. I met her once and she was one of the biggest tomboys I had ever met. However she had already developed breast and looked very female. When she is old enough to marry if she marries a man will she be a homosexual? At birth she had the parts of both. If she forms a relationship with a woman is she a lesbian? What was your God thinking....?"

Even though a child is born with both genitalia; I am sure it is very obvious whether it is a boy or a girl. Most typically, when a child is born a hermaphrodite, it has the full genitalia of one gender and a partial of the other. To the best of my knowledge, they are not born with a full male and a full female genitalia. As you said, "At birth she had the parts of both" -- but, I would suspect that if you knew the full story -- one would have been more developed than the other.

My beautiful neighbor who took her own life was very obviously a woman, a beautiful woman. I knew her and her husband -- and, no, she was not a homosexual living in secret.

You ask, "What was your God thinking....?"

This type of thing we cannot lay at the feet of God -- no more that we can blame God for the child born with Down's Syndrome or the child born with other birth defects -- or the child still-born or miscarried. Man, starting with Adam, has made his own bed -- and we must lie in it. Yes, there are horrible things happening in this world -- for it is a fallen world; it is a world ruled today by Satan.

But, one day soon, Jesus Christ will return and redeem the Title Deed to earth from Satan. Then Satan will be cast into the abyss for one thousand years -- and Jesus Christ will take all believers into His one thousand year Millennial Kingdom where there will be peace, happiness, and the perfect government -- His government.

Until then, I urge all my Friend who have not already made their reservations for eternal life with God -- do it today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Common sense tells us that God would NOT create anyone to be abominable in His sight.


Common sense tells us that gods are mythology. Do you also believe in Neptune or Zeus? Of course not --- but understand your "god" is a similar fairytale.

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
He is not a cruel God.


What about the whole "I'll burn you in hell for eternity if you refuse to worship me" bit?

Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yet these are birth defects. Birth defects came into being as man's gene pool was weakened through many generations of inter-familial marriage and through millennia of man living under the sin curse inherited from Adam.


Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
But, one day soon, Jesus Christ will return and redeem the Title Deed to earth from Satan. Then Satan will be cast into the abyss for one thousand years -- and Jesus Christ will take all believers into His one thousand year Millennial Kingdom where there will be peace, happiness, and the perfect government -- His government.


It boggles my mind that you honestly believe this to be true. I feel like I am arguing back & forth with someone from the 13th century.

Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by DustinSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yet these are birth defects. Birth defects came into being as man's gene pool was weakened through many generations of inter-familial marriage and through millennia of man living under the sin curse inherited from Adam.


Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin


Isn't that still legal down here? I mean, I dunno for sure, but one would tend to get that idea just from observation. Keeps the sheep pure, I guess....I dunno.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Dustin, in my earlier post, I wrote, "Yes, Haggard has a problem with homosexuality. However, being homosexual is not a sin; living an active homosexual lifestyle is what goes against Biblical teaching. We all are sinners. Homosexuality is only one of the sins. But, when we turn for our sins and turn to follow Christ; we are forgiven. And, from all outward appearances -- that is what Ted Haggard has done."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by DustinSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yet these are birth defects. Birth defects came into being as man's gene pool was weakened through many generations of inter-familial marriage and through millennia of man living under the sin curse inherited from Adam.


Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin


Isn't that still legal down here? I mean, I dunno for sure, but one would tend to get that idea just from observation. Keeps the sheep pure, I guess....I dunno.


is that were we get Virgin Wool from?
quote:
Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin



OMG LMAO @ Dustinsmith I must admit that the bible is a great story and perhaps a bit of an idiots guide to the Apocalypse but is it possible to think that there is a god up there? An entity of supreme power that allows so much calamity to go on in his name? Would he endorse hating gays? I mean, really? If you believe in the Nazarene so much and this bed time story wouldn't you just assume he would take the gays in and not judge them?
quote:
Originally posted by newworldview777:
[QUOTE]Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin



OMG LMAO @ Dustinsmith I must admit that the bible is a great story and perhaps a bit of an idiots guide to the Apocalypse but is it possible to think that there is a god up there? An entity of supreme power that allows so much calamity to go on in his name? Would he endorse hating gays? QUOTE]


Apparently so. Dig Fred Phelps:

http://www.godhates***s.com/

OK. Mrs. Grundy won't let me post the link correctly. Westboro Baptist Church. godhatesf46s.com (replace the 46 with "ag".
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by newworldview777:
[QUOTE]Bill,

According to your bible, didn't we all descend from Adam & Eve? How's that for inter-familial reproduction?

Dustin

OMG LMAO @ Dustinsmith I must admit that the bible is a great story and perhaps a bit of an idiots guide to the Apocalypse but is it possible to think that there is a god up there? An entity of supreme power that allows so much calamity to go on in his name? Would he endorse hating gays? QUOTE]


Apparently so. Dig Fred Phelps:

http://www.godhates***s.com/

OK. Mrs. Grundy won't let me post the link correctly. Westboro Baptist Church. godhatesf46s.com (replace the 46 with "ag".



I mean realistically... lol Westboro Baptist are extremists who need their own private island. I really think Christians like that need to teach their kids to strap explosives on and fight just like the extremist Muslims. Yikes!
Back to gays though... I honestly think they are good at heart and mean no one harm so why not let them have their rights and let them live in peace? It wasn't our place to judge in the first place right?

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