Fascinating factoids from the Mormon history of fantasy and fanaticism

Highlighted so that you may conveniently view some of the more absurd doings of the cult and its prophets.

From
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon036.htm


"Living prophets are leading this church today. The greatest security of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints comes from learning to listen to and obey the words and commandments that the Lord has given through living prophets. I would hope that the world would understand the importance of having a living prophet on earth today. In my own lifetime, through association with prophets, I have observed how they are prepared by the Lord. Their purpose is to bring us the will of the Lord for our times. I give my testimony that the prophets of this day have the qualities of the prophets of old and the other prophets of this dispensation. Each of these prophets has humbly and prayerfully sought to know and follow God?s will in his personal ministry. We declare with soberness, and yet with the authority of God in us vested, we have a prophet today. The President of the Church, as a prophet, is God?s representative on earth and is appointed to lead His church."
-Apostle Robert D. Hales, "Hear the Prophet?s Voice and Obey," Ensign, May 1995, Page 15

Now look what those leaders have done over the last 150 years. Ask yourself, are these men really God's representatives on the Earth?

The following historical events regarding sex and marriage in the church have been compiled from the extensive historical church chronology from D. Michael Quinn's book "The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power" For references, refer to the book.

Jan 14, 1848 - Brigham Young instructs Seventy's meeting: "For the first act of adultery you may forgive a man, but if a man beds with a woman and does it 10 times he is guilty."

11 Mar, 1848 - Benjamin Covey is excommunicated for having sexual intercourse with two girls "less than Twelve years of age" who are his foster daughters. He is rebaptized and serves as bishop of Salt Lake City Twelfth Ward from 22 February 1849 until 1856.

1 Feb, 1849 - First counselor Heber C. Kimball tells Sunday meeting that plural marriage "would end he said when the Church had gone to the Devil or the Prieshood taken from this people - then God would give it to another people."

3 Mar, 1849 - At council of Fifty meeting, Brigham Young speaks concerning theives, murderers, and sexually licentious: "I want their cursed heads to be cut off that they may atone for their crimes." Next day, the council agrees that man has "forfeited his Hed," and decides it would be best "to dispose of him privately." Instead, they allow him to live.

29 April, 1849 - First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve make following decisions concerning sex in marriage "not to unite with woman in view of impregnation till 7 days after the cesation of the menstrual discharge in order for the most healthy procreation. Also that after childbrith if delivered a son she should continue 40 days in her purification [without sexual intercourse with her husband]. If daughter she [the new mother] should be 70 days separated as unclean for a man. As to sexual connexion during pregnancy, do just as they please about that - suit themselves." This is the earliest known LDS discussion of what is appropriate in sexual relations of married couples. These rules are based on Book of Leviticus, rather than on current medical writings.

15 Jan, 1851 - First of Brigham Young's five formal divorces from plural wives. He is only one formally divorced while serving as church president. Joseph Smith informally ended several plural marriages, and four LDS presidents are formally divorced as apostles (John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith)

19 Jar, 1851 - Utah legislature enacts law against "Sodomoy" by "any man or boy," but removes sodomoy from criminal code on 6 Mar. 1852, without explanation. As governor Brigham Young signs both laws. Due to absence of sodomy statue, Utah judge drops charges against soldier for raping LDS boy in 1864. Young claims Utah's legislators never criminalized sodomy and he declines to instruct them to do so for the next twelve years. Utah legislators criminalize sodomy in 1876 only because federally appointed governor asks them to adopt entire criminal code of California which has five-year imprisonment for sodomy. For next twenty years LDS judges give 3-6 months of improsonment to those convicted of homosexual rape, the same sentencing given to young males and females convicted of consensual fornication. Mormons of this era give no known explanations for any of these legislative and jurdicial actions/inactions.

17 MAr, 1851 - Brigham Young speaks in favor of Madison D. Hambleton who is being tried for shooting and killing man at LDS church services, immediately after closing prayer. The man "seduced" wife of Hambletone who is "acquitted by the Court and also by the Voice os the people present." Hambleton later becomes sheriff in Utah.

18 Oct, 1851 - Trial of confessed murderer (and newly returned-missinary) Howard Egan. His lawyer Apostle George A. Smith popularizes phrase "mountain common law" and argues: "The man who seduces his neighbor's wife must die, and her nearest relative must kill him!" Fifteen minutes later jury finds Egan not guilty of murder. Church authorities print Smith's closing argument in Deseret News, in two church pamphlets, and later in Journal of Discourses 1:97. Egan is one of Brigham Young's enforcers.

24 July, 1853 - Brigham Young preaches, "The Father came down in his bodily tabernacle and begot Jesus."

19 Feb, 1854 - Seventy's president Jedediah M. Grant preaches: Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife that he asked for? He did not...."

16 July, 1854 - First counselor Heber C. Kimball recommends decapitation for adulterers and preaches from the pulpit concerning "unclean" women: "we wipe them out of exsistence."

8 Oct, 1854 - In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff describes as "the greatest sermon that ever was deliveed to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people," Brigham Young announces from the pulpit: "I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives. Why? because we cannot do otherwise. There are none others for me to and the opposite idea has resulted from the ignorant and foolish traditions of the nations of the earth." Young's secretary George D. Watt has already married his own half sister as a plural wife. Her letter to Young shows that he was initially "unfavorable" toward allowing them to marry, but this sermon reveals theological basis for Young's authorizing Watt's brother-sister marriage and the three children born of their union.

27 Apr, 1855 - Lieutenant in Colonel E. J. Steptoe's command in Salt Lake City writes to friend about his romance and near seduction of one of the wives of Brigham Young's son Joseph (who is on a mission): "Mary [Ayers] Young and I had to give up. Brigham sent me word that if I took her away he would have me killed before I could get out of the Territory. He is a man of his word and little matters of this sort are concluded, I had better not do it, although I went back to the city purposely to get her. We wrote each other affectionate notes."

27 Mar, 1857 - Brigham Young permits woman to select faithful elders to act as "proxy" to father children for her sexually impotent living husband. Young performs polyandrous ceremony "for time," and the relationship lasts for several years producting two sons, (1858, 1861). Mother's legal husband raises boys with her, and later tells them he loves them as much as if they were his natural sons. Both boys grow up to become devoted Mormons and polygamists. This is last knon case of authorized polyandry.

2 June, 1857 - Brigham Young says from the pulit, "I feel to sustain him," when informed that the bishop in Manti. Waren S. Snow, has castrated twenty-four-year-old Welchman, Thomas Lewis, for undisclosed sex crime. "Just let the matter drop, and say no more about it," Young writes Snow in July about the castration, "and it will soon die away among the people." Snow's counselor confides to his diary that this poor young man "has now gone crazy."

14 June, 1857 - At a prayer circle of the First Presidency and apostles, Brigham Young refuses to seal three young girls (ages 12 and 13) to "Father James Allred" (age 73) because they "would not be equally yoked together" in marriage.

27 Jan, 1858 - Judge Hosea Stout describes with no disaproval how Mormons "disguised as Indians" drag a man "out of bed with a ***** and castrated him by a square and close amputation."5 Apr, 1858 - Bishop of Payson, his brother the Sherriff, and sevral members of their LDS congregation join in shooting to death twenty-two-year-old Henry Jones and is mother, Mrs. Hannah Jones Hatch, for committing incest by which she has a daughter. The men also kill infant and also castrate brother/father. Perpetrators are indicted next year, but not brought to trial. When indicted again in 1889, Deseret News article criticizes trial of this "antiquated Payson homicide" as anti-Mormon crusade gainst those who were justifiably "digusted and greatly incensed" against "the brutal mother and son." Former sherriff is convicted of murder, former bishop is acquitted.

12 Sep, 1858 - Church historian's office notes discovery this morning of severed head of Provo woman who has been at U.S. military camp for a week. Six weeks earlier another woman's head is discovered. These are earliest verified examples of someone taking literally the repeated teachings of Mormon leaders that apostates and adulterers should have their heads "cut off" as "blood atonement" for their sins.

2 Jan, 1859 - Brigham Young begins custom of having all Mormon congregations sit with women on north side of center aisle, men on south side, and children on front benches. This seating arrangement lasts for decades, remains in temples to this day.

8 Oct, 1859 - Brigham Young from the pulpit tells bishops to give Melchizedek priesthood to eighteen-year old boys, even if they "have been sowing their wild oats for years."

8 July, 1860 - Brigham Young preaches from the pulpit, "Children are now born who will live until every son of Adam will have the privledge of receiving the principles of eternal life." He also preaches, "The birth of our Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action."

23 Feb 1862 - Brigham Young preaches from the pulpit that the concept of Mother in Heaven is as essential as concept of Father in Heaven.

1 Aug 1862 - Brigham Young writes to a local bishop: "my advice is for bro james T.S. Allred to marry the Indian girl in question. It is written that 'not many generations shall pass away before they become a white and delightsome people.'" Dozens of men marry Native Americans as plural wives in pioner Utah and Arizona.

12 Apr, 1866 - Deseret News reports murder of S. Newton Brassfield on 2 Apr. He legally maries plrual wife of absent Mormon missionary, and Deseret News editorializes that "the illegaly married couple would probably have been suffered to prusue their way to their own liking," except that she filed for custody of her children. Deseret News also reports Brigham Young's sermon about the murdered Brassfield: "Were I absent from my home on a mission, I would rejoice to know that I had friends there to protect and guard the virtue of my household; and I would thank God for such friends."

19 Aug, 1866 - Brigham Young preaches from the pulpit: "Mary, the wife of Joseph, had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard... he was begotten by God our Heavenly Father." She was a polyandrist, like the women he authorized in 1857.

11 Dec, 1866 - Brigham Young, Jr. writes in his diary that "a ******" is found dead in Salt Lake City with this note pinned to the corpse: "Let this be a warning to all ******s that they meddle not with white women."10 Jan, 1868 - Deseret News Editorial: "In this Territory we jealously close the door against adultery, seduction and *****dom. Public opinion here pronounces the penalty of death as the fitting punishment for such crimes."

4 Feb, 1868 - Deseret News editorializes that "it is a pity" LDS father did not succeed in killing his daughter's lover when the father "drew a revolver and shot him down in the court room."

5 MAr, 1868 - Deseret News article titled "Served Him Right" reports that a Gentile is given "sound thrashing" when he visits LDS meeting to see young woman.

15 Aug, 1869 - Apostle George Q. Cannon preaches from the pulpit: "We close the door on one side, and say that *****doms, seductions and adulteries must not be committed among us, and we say to those who are determined to carry on such things: WE WILL KILL YOU..."

27 Oct, 1869 - Brigham Young preaches at Lehi, Utah that "by marriage Lot's two daughters were sealed to him, and will be his to all eternity." Young adds that it might one day become necessary to seals a man's daughter to him as a wife, "but it is not likely ever again to occur." There are verified instances of LDS leaders performing polygamous marriages between men and their foster-daughters or step-daughters, but not actual daughters.

18 June, 1870 - First counselor George A. Smith tells Salt Lake School of the Prophets about "the evil of Masturbation" among Utah Mormons. Apostle Lorenzo Snow says that "Plural Marriage would tend to diminish this evil self-pollution," and he believes that "indulgence on the part of men was less in Plural marriage than in Monogomy." Elder George Reynolds (Secretary to Brigahm Young) also tells the School that "where Monogomy was the Law, it compelled a more frequent (sexual) cohabitation than is right and proper." Mormon medical books of the time advise sexual intercourse only once a month.

11 Sep, 1871 - Counselor Daniel H. Wells tells Grantsville School of the Prophets that "a great many of our young men are abusing themselves by the habit of self-pollution: or self abuse, or as the Bible terms it, Onanism," which he regards as "one great cause why so many of our young men were not married, and it was a great sin, and would lead to insanity and a premature grave." Polygamy is likelier cause for prevalence of bachelorhood in ninteenth-century Utah. First, every national census lists more males than females in Mormon population. Second, 10 to 40 percent of Mormon men marry polygamously which demographically requires bachelorhood in Utah's majority population of males.

16 Dec, 1871 - Seymor B. Young, son of senior Seventy's president, writes: "Salt Lake City has for the first time in its history houses of Ill fame almost on every corner."

27 Feb, 1872 - LDS publication Millenial Star editorial titled, "Motherhood of God," repeats a child's question: "Why don't you tell me about the Heavenly Mother? Don't she give us anything?" Editorial speaks of those who "yearn to adore her" and expresses approval of praying to "Father and Mother God." Editorial conclusion: "When we draw nearer the Divine Man, lo! we shall find a Divine Woman smiling upon us...In the Father's many mansions, we shall find her and be satisfied."

7 Mar, 1875 - Apostle Joseph F. Smith's wife writes to him that "you know how brother (Apostle) [Albert] Carrington thinks a deal of women." In Dec. 1882 Apostle John Henry Smith writes President John Taylor that maid at British Mission headquarters "found Bro. Carrington lying upon the lounge and Sarah Kirkman lying upon top him." Upon Brigham Young's inquiry about other women in 1873 and John Taylor's inquiry about Sarah Kirkham in 1883, Carrington denies serious wrongdoing. he is not excommunicated until 1885 when protests from Sarah's husband become too insistent to ignore.

24 June, 1876 - Brigham Young confides that it is "a curiousity to him that men could commit adultery and still retain the spirit of the Lord as he had witnessed on one occasion. The man is now dead."

26 Sep, 1877 - Grand Jury describes Salt Lake County probate court as a "divorce mill" which granted 300 divorces in previous twelve-month period, primarily on "grounds of incompatibility of temperment, different aims and objectives in life." Eighty percent of divorced couples come to Utah for divorces from such places as San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Terre Haute, and St. Louis. Report finds that 13 percent of divorces are granted same day of complaint, total of 25 percent within week of application, and total of 85 percent are granted within a month of aplication. Report continues, "And your committee have good reason to beleive that other country probate courts of the territory are likewise engaged in this class of divorce business, to an equal if not greater extent." Two months later U.S. senator Dawes introduces bill to remove divorce from jurisdiction of Mormon probate courts and limit divorce cases to federally-appointed non-Momron judges.

13 June, 1878 - LDS political newspaper Salt Lake Herald's editorial on "Unhappy Marriages" begins: "We cannot say how many divorces the (Mormon) Utah probate courts have granted during the last few years, but the number is enormous, amounting to perhaps thousands."

8 Oct, 1881 - First Counselor George Q. Cannon tells general conference: "We hear now of men having got married to cover up certain things; of children born wonderfully soon after marriage in some of our setlements, and perhaps in this city no less than in our rural settlements."

31 Mar, 1883 - Apostle Brigham Young Jr. tells stake priesthood meeting: "There are many girls in Utah who have never had an offer of marriage from a man of the Church... Girls who marry outsiders are not worthy of the Sacrament."

9 Oct, 1883 - In several hours of meeting with stake presidents, First Presidency and apostles give instructions about "Masturbation...self-pollution of both sexes and excessive sexual indulgence in the married relation." This is the first-known Mormon referene to female masturabation.

7 Nov, 1885 - Quorum of Twelve excommunicates Apostle Albert Carrington "for crimes of lewd and lascivious conduct and adultery" with several women dating back to 1871. This is the first time since 1842 that a general authority is excommunicated for sexual misconduct, and its publication on 10 Nov. stuns the community.

27 Mar, 1886 - Polygamist husband confides in his personal diary: "How delicate is the position of a man in plural marriage who loves his wives and who in turn is loved by them. Every move he makes, in his relation or intercourse with them, is an arrow that pierces deep into the heart of one or other of them... A thousand thoughts and plans may come into his mind, but there is only one true solution. He must please God. In doing this, it may be hoped that by and by, he may also somehow please them."

15 July, 1886 - Apostle Lorenzo prophesies from the pulpit that in the future "brothers and sisters would marry each other in this church. All our horror at such a union was due entirely to prejudice, and the offspring of such unions would be as healthy and pure as any other. These were the decided views of President Young, when alive, for Bother Snow talked to him freely on this matter."27

Dec, 1886 - Sarah M. Granger Kimball, counselor in Relief Society General Presidency teaches from the pulpit that "her brother Lafayette Granger and the late Bishop George Miller in conversation once with the prophet Joseph smith were told by him that when Mary the mother of Jesus was on her way to the hill country she was met by God the Father and the Angel Gabriel and the latter performed the marriage between Father (God) and Mary."

21 July, 1887 - Apostle Franklin D. Richards: "God the Father came down in his tabernacle of flesh and bone and had (sexual) association with Mary, and made her pregnant with Jesus."

27 Feb, 1889 - LDS political newspaper Salt Lake Herald's article titled, "FAILED MARRIAGES," regarding "the report of the Labor Commissioner Wright, presented last week, on the statistics of marriage and divorce in the United States from 1867 to 1886 inclusive," with following: In 1870 Utah had highest rate of divorce out of all states and territories. In 1870 Utah's rate was one divorce per 185 marriages. National averages was 1:664. States with lowest divorce rates are South Carolina at 1:4,938, Delaware at 1:123,672, New Mexico at 1:16,077, North Carolina at 1:4,938, and Louisiana at 1:4,579. In 1880 Utah had tenth highest rate of divorce out of all states and territories. In 1880 Utah's rate was one divorce per 219 marriages, wich was more than twice the national average of 1:479. In twentieth century, divorce rates for LDS temple marriages starts out three times higher than this "divorce mill" rate for early Utah civil marriages.

13 Mar, 1890 - Plural wife writes to her husband: "We are more like lovers than husband and wife for we are as far removed from each other - there is always the embarrassment of lovers and yet we have been married more than 37 years."

8 Sep, 1890 - Apostle John Henry Smith preaches from the pulput that "married people who indulge their passions for any other purpose than to beget children, really committed adultery."

1 Oct, 1890 - An apostle asks "how the Son of God was begotten," and Lorenzo Snow tells apostles, "that he was begotten just the same as you and I were or as our sons today are."

2 Dec, 1890 - Apostle Lorenzo Snow tells the Quorum of Twelve that "he expects to see the day when a man's blood is shed again for the crime of adultery."24 Mar, 1891 - Utah's chief justice Zane writes: "Polygamy has demoralized the people of Utah. I presume there are more sexual crimes here in proportion to the population than anywhere else."

6 Mar, 1892 - Stake president "condemns the practice that existed among the Saints to some extent of taking means to restrict the number of their children to only two or three."

20 Sep, 1896 - Seventy's president J. Golden Kimball preaches: "There are 500 girls who are public prostitutes in Salt Lake City. Some of these are daughters of Latter-Day Saints."

5 Nov, 1896 - Apostle Lorenzo R. Snow's youngest plural wife bears his last child in Canada. At age 82 he is the oldest general authority to father a child.

15 Jan, 1897 - Apostle Brigham Young Jr. temporarily resigns as vice-president of Brigham Young Trust Co. because first counselor George Q. Cannon allows its property to become "a first class" brothel on Commercial Street (now Regent Street), Salt Lake City. Apostle Heber J. Grant is invited to its opening reception and is stunned to discover himself inside "a regular *****-house." This situation begins in 1891 and for fifty years church-owned and controlled real estate companies lease houses of prostitution.

7 Oct, 1898 - At general conference Apostle John W. Taylor reports that in one rural area in Utah, 80 percent of LDS marrages involve pre-marital sex.

14 June, 1900 - First Presidency and apostles agree to give $3,600 to Brigham Y. Hampton for his prior "detective work" in which he paid prostitute to allow him and nearly thirty LDS "Home Missionaries" and policemen to spy on anti-Mormons engaging in sex acts in Salt Lake City brothels in 1885. Although first counselor denies it at this meeting, in private meetings of First Presidency George Q. Cannon refers to Hampton's brothel work as "services rendered the Church" and "work in behalf of the Church." Hampton has been set apart as a Salt Lake temple worker since 1893, and another coordinator of brothel spying is the temple doorkeeper (1893-1910).10 July 1901 - Apostle Anthon H. Lund reports to apostles that during six-month period, 58 percent of LDS marriages in rural ward were "forced."

7 Nov, 1901 - First Presidency decides and announces that there is "no rule in the church forbidding cousins to intermarry" and that first cousins can have temple marriages if they present civil license. General authorities such as Brigham Young, Williard Richards, Joseph F. Smith and Abraham H.Cannon married their first cousins as legal and plural wives.

23 Nov, 1902 - Apostle John W. Taylor tells stake priesthood meeting that "those who have sexual intercourse with their wives or touch any dead body are unclean until the evening, and therefore during that day should not enter the temple or officiate in any ordinances of the gospel."

26 Mar 1903 - Joseph F. Smith tells apostles "there would be no daughters of perdition" in final judgment. General authorities authorize rebaptism without church discipline for young man who confesses "secret crime he committed in having to do with animals."

7 July, 1903 - Apostle Rudger Clawson tells other apostles "that the practice of self-abuse existed to an alarming extent among the boys in our community who attended the district schools, and also, he doubted not, the church schools. He felt that the boys and girls should be properly instructed in regard to this evil."

25 Oct, 1905 - Public criticism of Joseph F. Smith's remarks that Father Damien of Hawaiian leper colony was immoral before his death. LDS church president is convinced that leprosy is contracted through sexual contact.

9 May, 1913 - First Presidency learns that James Dwyer, co-founder of Salt Lake City's LDS University (now LDS Business College), has been "teaching young men that sodomy and kindred vices are not sins..." Dwyer's daughter, actress Ada Dwyer Russell, is already in long-term relationship with lesbian poet Amy Lowell. Dwyer's bishop and stake president want to excommunicate him, but First Presidency allows Dwyer, now in his eighties, to voluntarily "withdraw his name" from LDS church membership.

29 Sep, 1914 - Quorum of Twelve learns that mission president has "discovered that 15% of the missionary Elders in the Netherlands during the past two years, have been guilty of imoral practices, and that a much greater percentage of Elders have been exposed to these evils."

8 June, 1941 - First Counsellor J. Reuben Clark tells annual general conference of youth and their leaders: "When I was a boy it was preached from the stand, and my father and my mother repeated the principle to me time and time again. They said, 'Reuben, we had rather bury you than have you become uchaste.' And that is the law of this true Church."

26 Jan, 1842 - First Councelor J. Reuben Clark tells reporter for Look Magazine: "Our divorces are piling up." Church Historian's Office in 1968 compiles divorce statistics since 1910 for temple marriages, "church civil" marriages, and "other civil" marriages. Although temple marriages have lowest divorce rate of the three categories, in 1910 there was one "temple divorce" for every 66 temple marriages performed that year., 1:41 in 1915, 1:34 in 1920, 1:27 in 1925, 1:30 in 1930, 1:23 in 1935, 1:27 in 1939, 1:17 in 1945, 1:31 in 1950, 1:30 in 1955, 1:19 in 1960 and 1965. Last rate for temple divorce is almost ten times higher than Utah's civil divorce rate century earlier.

2 Oct, 1952 - Second Counselor J. Reuben Clark warns women of Relief Society general conference against "self-pollution," prostitution, and "homosexuality, which it is tragic to say, is found among both sexes." He cautions LDS women against allowing homsexually oriented males to use them as male-substitutes in dating or marriage: "I wonder if you girls have ever reflected on the thought that was in the mind of the man who first began to praise you for your boyish figures." Clark also tells the ladies, "I forebear to more than mention that abomination and filth and loathsomeness of the ancients - carnal knowledge with beasts." Church Relief Society magazine publishes this talk in full.

21 May, 1959 - Executive committee of Church Board of Education discusses "the growing problem in our society of homosexuality." Spencer W. Kimball reports that David O.McKay has said "that in his view homosexuality was worse than heterosexual imorality; that it is a filthy and unnatural habit."

12 Feb, 1964 - First Presidency letter that all prosepctive missionaries "found guilty of fornication, of sex perversion, of heavy petting, or of comparable transgressions should not be recommended until the case has been discussed with the bishop and stake president and the visiting General Authority."

7 Jan, 1969 - First Presidency secretary Joseph Anderson answers letter about "the Church's stand pertaining to birth control," with the concluding statement: "After all, however, the brethren recognize that this is a personal matter involving the individuals concerned, and concerning which they must make their own decision."

14 April, 1969 - First Presidency makes official statement on birth control which omits any reference to their own feelings about birth control as "a personal matter," and states: "We believe that those who practice birth control will reap dissapointment by and by," and repeated earlier letter's emphasis on "self control as a dominant factor" in marriage.

9 June, 1978 - First Presidency letter instructs that interviews of married persons "should scrupulously avoid indelicate inquiries," yet also emphasizes: "Married persons should understand that if in their marital relations they are guilty of unnatural, impure or unholy practices, they should not enter the temple unless and until they repent and discontinue any such practices." This reverses position of First Presidency proir to Spencer W. Kimball's ascendancy.

17 June, 1978 - Church News headline "Interracial Marriage Discouraged" in same issue which announces authorizaton of priesthood for those of black African descent. Sources at church headquarters indicate that Apostle Mark E. Petersen requires this emphasis.

Sep 1981 - Branch presidents at the Missionary Training Center in Provo receive 21-point handout to help "both male and female" misionaries avoid masturbation. Point 19: "In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken." In May 1995 article about masturbation, national magazine "Details" publishes seventeen of the recommendations and identifies Apostle Mark E. Petersen as author of "Steps in Overcoming Masturbations: A Guide to Self-Control." In 1996, spokesman at LDS headquarters denies that Elder Petersen authored this document and denies that it was ever distributed.

5 Jan, 1982 - First Presidency repeats its 1978 instructions for "interviewing married persons," but adds: "The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure or unholy practice."

15 Oct 1982 - First Presidency instruction to all stake and mission leaders that many letters from church members "indicate clearly that some local leaders have been delving into private, sensitive matters beyond the scope of what is appropriate.... Also, you should never inquire into personal, intimate matters involving marital relations between a man and his wife." Letter continues that even if a church member volunteers such intimate information, "you should not persue the mater but should merely suggest that if the member has enough anxiety about the propriety of the conduct to ask about it, the best course would be to discontinue it." In response to widespread complaints from married couples being asked if they have oral sex, this returns First Presidency stance to what it was prior to presidency of Spencer W. Kimball, now incapacitated.

4 Mar, 1983 - Salt Lake Tribune reports lawsuit filed in February against LDS church for $28 million. A father blames LDS bishop for contributing to his sixteen-year-old son's suicide for conselling his son "that masturbation is a terrible sin.. and being a normal adolescent in the puberty state, KIP ELIASON became increasingly less able to reconcile his sexual desires with the strict doctrines of the said LDS Church. He became filled with self-hate."

15 Apr, 1983 - "University Post: The Unofficial Newspaper of Brigham Young University" reports interview with director of Standards Department. He acknowledges that students suspected of cheating, illegal drug use, stealing, or homosexuality are expelled from BYU if they refuse to take polygraph examination. BYU Security has licensed polygraph examiner.

4 Apr, 1987 - First Counselor Gordon B. Hinckley tells priesthood session of general conference that "marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices..." This reverses decades-long church policy formulated by Spencer W. Kimball.

9 Aug 1991 - Salt Lake Tribune article, "Of LDS Women, 58% Admit Premarital Sex."
Original Post
Well Beternu,
I've done my homework.
First of all I researched your Church(Church,Churches of Christ). Your right
on there is no Stone Cambell. My Bad. It was Barton W. Stone. That acted first
on going literally by the Bible. Five years later Thomas Cambell and his
son, Alexander Cambell took similar steps in 1809. They declared nothing older
than the New Testament to be scripture. Your Church claims to be fashioned
after Christ's original Church. Sounds familiar. Your church claims that every
member holds the Priesthood. Yet there is no origination claimed where your
Priesthood came from. Whether or not you beleive it or not, the Priesthood in
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Does know where our Authority
came from. It came directly from Christ himself. You hold the Lord's Supper on
Sundays and if someone can't attend you take it to them. We have the Sacramet
on Sundays and take it to them if they can't attend. Your Churches are a group
of loosely bound Churches with some central beleifs and a common name. I'm not
saying that's bad. Your Church has a shared internet site. Shared with the
other Churches of Christ. Your Church also has a web posting site. Nothing
wrong with that Your local Churces do have leadership. Each congrgation is led
by a Plurality of Elders or Presbyters. They are paid leaders. All of our(LDS)
Local leaders are not paid ministry. They serve because of their faith and
love of God.(no paychecks) I was mistaken that you don't study from the Old
Testament, but I thought Bill and you were from the same church. So because
of Bill's belief in no rain or seas before the Prophet Noah, well you know.
I've got to be honest if I was looking for a Church and didn't already know
what I know, your Church doesn't sound to bad. Your church has a lot of
similarities with ours, except no authority from Christ. Just a bunch of guys
who decided to start a Church. But it is a good movement and does good things.
So I will no longer go after you about your church it's self.

Now let's discuss your sources. You give the web site-
http://www.exmormon.org/org/mormon/mormon/mormon036.htm
The key word in there is exmormon. Just as I told you before these sites
you reference are made up of ex-mormons and mormon haters. they fabricate
things and add some references to begile people. First of all the sites
subject matter is titled Sex and the Mormon Church a cronological history
(long). It's date says Dec. 31 12:16 Wait there's more. The author is stated
as Deconstructor??? and no mail address listed. All the subject matter you
faulsly claim as fact are from a book titled The Mormon Hierarchy: Extentions
of Power. It's author is D. Micheal Quinn. The same Dennis Micheal Quinn that
was a Professor at no other than Brigham Young University. The same Professor
D. Micheal Quinn who was excommunicated by the Mormon Church in 1993. Sounds
like a theme to me. Here's more although he is excommunicated he says he
believes in the Mormon movement although he diagrees with certain policis
and doctrines. Are you going to keep getting you info from these bogus hateful
sites? You've got to do better than that Beternu. Seeing how I'm not going to
refer to your Church anymore, and my tone is going to lighten I will investigate
and shine the light on your falsehoods. Reading thru your church's beliefs and
purpose, I didn't read anywhere about your Church's mission to attack and
slander other religions and faiths.

Keep Marching for a Reformed Beternu,
Your Pal Skippy Cool
Hi Dwight/Skippy,

Two things I will have to admit. First, that when you write more than two sentences -- between your rambling, your bad spelling, your horrible punctuation -- and your incomplete and run-on sentences and paragraphs -- it is almost as impossible to understand what you are trying to says as it is to understand Mormon religious logic.

I believe I am finally seeing a pattern. You will not answer ANY questions about your Mormon religion for to do so would provide proof it is a cult.

And, when you write -- do you purposely write in such a confused way so that no one can understand what you are pretending to explain?

Now I see the connection. You are not really that illiterate. It is all pretense to avoid allowing anyone to truly know about your cult religion.

And, second, it matters little what church Beter attends. It does not matter if he attends a COC, Baptist, or whatever. That does not, in any way, make your Mormon church LESS of a CULT church.

Yet, I can see your typical Mormon misdirection and deceit in asking this of Beter. THAT is your normal mode of operation.

As a matter of fact -- that is the Mormon church mode of operation -- if you are an example of a good Mormon.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Photos (1)
quote:
Now I see the connection. You are not really that illiterate. It is all pretense to avoid allowing anyone to truly know about your cult religion.

Is that why you post long rambling "sermons" when someone asks you a question? Check your own punctuation and spelling.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Dwight/Skippy,

Two things I will have to admit. First, that when you write more than two sentences -- between your rambling, your bad spelling, your horrible punctuation -- and your incomplete and run-on sentences and paragraphs -- it is almost as impossible to understand what you are trying to says as it is to understand Mormon religious logic.

I believe I am finally seeing a pattern. You will not answer ANY questions about your Mormon religion for to do so would provide proof it is a cult.

And, when you write -- do you purposely write in such a confused way so that no one can understand what you are pretending to explain?

Now I see the connection. You are not really that illiterate. It is all pretense to avoid allowing anyone to truly know about your cult religion.

And, second, it matters little what church Beter attends. It does not matter if he attends a COC, Baptist, or whatever. That does not, in any way, make your Mormon church LESS of a CULT church.

Yet, I can see your typical Mormon misdirection and deceit in asking this of Beter. THAT is your normal mode of operation.

As a matter of fact -- that is the Mormon church mode of operation -- if you are an example of a good Mormon.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
____________________________________

Thanks Bill,
nothing like reading a cheerful note from you to
give me a good chuckle. Big Grin

Keep Marching,
Your good buddy,
Skippy Wink
Skippy, I hope you have also learned that Churches of Christ do NOT subscribe to the notion of original sin as you erroneously claim nor do they believe that unbaptized little children are destined for hell. You will not find elders in Churches of Christ being paid, except very rarely and that is a fully scriptural thing that Mormons should not make any objection to. I Timothy 5:17 & 18 makes that very clear:

"17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

As to the priesthood, I go by what the scriptures say. Peter wrote about the priesthood, which he assigns to the whole body of Christians, not to some elite group:

"9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"

The priesthood of the type prescribed in the Old Testament was done away with when Jesus established a New Covenant. Read all about that in Hebrews 10. No Apostle, evangelist, or other person in the First Century Church was ever referred to in the new Testament as a "priest" other than in the passage I have quoted above from I Timothy. The two forms of the Mormon "priesthood" have no legitimate place in the church that Jesus established, nor do the contrived Mormon offices of President, Quorum of the Seventy, First and Second Counselors, etc. These are all parts of a system that bears no resemblance to the Biblical model for church governance. The Mormon office of "high priest" is a blasphemous invention, since the Bible clearly states that Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 8:1). How dare any man usurp the office bestowed on Jesus Christ? You need to read the Book of Hebrews, Skippy, especially Chapters 7-9 and try to get yourself straight on this priesthood thing. The Mormon priesthood is a mongerel concept, created by unscripturally bringing into your cult elements of the Old Testament that have been replaced by a newer and better covenant.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Now I see the connection. You are not really that illiterate. It is all pretense to avoid allowing anyone to truly know about your cult religion.

Is that why you post long rambling "sermons" when someone asks you a question? Check your own punctuation and spelling.

Hi Jennifer,

When a Forum Friend asks me a serious question -- I do believe it deserves more than just a "Yeah, me too!" answer.

Why would someone ask a question -- if he/she does not want a good answer? And, the only good answer is one taken from the Word of God and explained to the best of my ability.

If you had a serious question -- would you want less?

Regarding my spelling, punctuation, and sentence/paragraph structure -- if you find an error please do me the favor of making me aware of my mistake. I will sincerely appreciate it.

About eight years ago, I had a Friend who came on my Friends Ministry mail list. At first, she and I butted heads. But, then we became best of Friends.

She was a retired school teacher from Missouri -- and, when she found a typo or other error in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter, she would tell me. Through doing this, she helped me to become a better writer.

She has gone on to be with her Lord and Savior now; but, if you can take her place, become my Friend, and help me by pointing out errors and typos in my writings -- I will truly be grateful.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Photos (1)
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Skippy, I hope you have also learned that Churches of Christ do NOT subscribe to the notion of original sin as you erroneously claim nor do they believe that unbaptized little children are destined for hell. You will not find elders in Churches of Christ being paid, except very rarely and that is a fully scriptural thing that Mormons should not make any objection to. I Timothy 5:17 & 18 makes that very clear:

"17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

As to the priesthood, I go by what the scriptures say. Peter wrote about the priesthood, which he assigns to the whole body of Christians, not to some elite group:

"9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"

The priesthood of the type prescribed in the Old Testament was done away with when Jesus established a New Covenant. Read all about that in Hebrews 10. No Apostle, evangelist, or other person in the First Century Church was ever referred to in the new Testament as a "priest" other than in the passage I have quoted above from I Timothy. The two forms of the Mormon "priesthood" have no legitimate place in the church that Jesus established, nor do the contrived Mormon offices of President, Quorum of the Seventy, First and Second Counselors, etc. These are all parts of a system that bears no resemblance to the Biblical model for church governance. The Mormon office of "high priest" is a blasphemous invention, since the Bible clearly states that Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 8:1). How dare any man usurp the office bestowed on Jesus Christ? You need to read the Book of Hebrews, Skippy, especially Chapters 7-9 and try to get yourself straight on this priesthood thing. The Mormon priesthood is a mongerel concept, created by unscripturally bringing into your cult elements of the Old Testament that have been replaced by a newer and better covenant.

_____________________________________________________

Beternu,
yes I now know that the Churches of Christ do no beleive in original sin
and yes Timothy 5:18 refers to support of clergy if needed. As you say the
priesthood should not be for just an elite group. In the LDS Church all worthy
males 12 years of age can be ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood. Then at the
age of 18 worthy young men can be ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.
which is named after Melchizedeck King of Salem Priest of the most High God.
Genesis 14:18. As for the priesthood of the Old Testament being done away
with in Hebrews 10, this is not true. Hebrews 10 talks of the doing away with
blood sacrifice with the crusification of Christ. The blood sacrifices of the
Old Testament were in place of Christ's crusification. In Hebrews 5:1 it says;
"For every High Priest taken from among men is ordained for men
in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices
for sins." Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he
that is called of God , as was Aaron. Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another
place, Thou art a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of salem, priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him.
Hebrews 7:2 To whom also gave a tenth of all; first being by interpretation
King of rightousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace:
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of
Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth,
Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made a priest.
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled
, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 4:14 Seeing
then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the
Son of God, let us hold fast to our profession. There are many references
just in the New Testament that refer to the order of the Priesthood. There is
nothing describing Jesus or anyone doing away with the priesthood, it even
states that Jesus is a High Priest. It also states that the priesthood is for
ever. We know(LDS) that the Priesthood is the governing force of the universe,
thru God. Yes God is a Mormon God but he is also everyones God, even Athiests,
Moslems, Jews, Buddists, Christains, everyone who lives in his universe, And
that he created all of us in this universe. He has only one Begotten Son
Jesus Christ. As the scriptures of the Old and New Testament state,
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieith, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.
So please Beternu show me were, any where in the Bible(King James Version) that
it states anything about the Priesthood of God our Father and His Son Jesus Christ
has been discontinued. You can't, it's not there. But it is there where it states
that it is a forever Priesthood. It is received through ordination from a
worthy Priesthood holder. 1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that was given
thee by prophecy, with the laying on of hands of the presbytery.*
*(Elders, holders of the Melchisedec Priesthood.)
So why you believe that you
are just born into the Priesthood or receive it from belief, I see no scripture
that backs up your claim. Also at the begining of your Church during the
restoration movement in the early 1800's. Where did the Priesthood come from?
Was it transfered from the Churches that your Churches brook off from? If so
how was it transfered from the Pentecost, 30 A.D.. Also in Christ's original
Church it discribes Bishops which your Churches don't have.(correct me if I'm
wrong) So how you get cult out of Christ's original Church, which we are, and
how you don't understand about the priesthood, when it is plainly printed in
the scriptures, I don't know. Plus all the references in the Old Testament and
the many I didn't refer to in the New Testament, surely testify to not only the
existance of the Holy Priesthood, but in the order that it is in the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Thank You and Keep Marching,
Skippy Smiler
Also Beternu,

You say that the verse in," 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a royal priesthood , an holy nation,
a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out
of the darkness into his marvellous light.", is the bases of everyone holding the priesthood.
In 1 Peter 2:10 it says,"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of
God;: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." This is speaking of the
Gentiles. It says they now can have the blessings of God and they are now able to hold
the Priesthood if they are worthy.
In 1 Timothy 4:14 it says,"Neglect not the gift that in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with the the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."(Elders)
Because of authority the laying on of hands as stated in scripture. Where again did your
authority to the Priesthood come from? Everyone has the right to read and relay what you
believe the Bible says but, it still does not give you the authority of the Priesthood.

Keep Marching,
Skippy Smiler
WINDSONG,Skippy or whoever out there is mixed up about sacerdotalism in the New Testament Church---you miss the entire message of the book of Hebrews. In all those instances where you have red-lettered the Melchizedek priesthood, the writer is discussing not man, but Jesus Christ as the holder of that priesthood. The eldership described in I Timothy 4:14 is in no way linked to the Melchidezek priesthood, except through a wild illogical stretch of the imagination.

Those in the "royal priesthood" described by Peter are simply those who have fully accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and been "translated...into the kingdom of [God's] dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). There is no requirement for any kind of ceremonial laying on of hands in connection with that.
quote:
Originally posted by skippy delepepper:
Also Beternu,

You say that the verse in," 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a royal priesthood , an holy nation,
a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out
of the darkness into his marvellous light.", is the bases of everyone holding the priesthood.
In 1 Peter 2:10 it says,"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of
God;: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." This is speaking of the
Gentiles. It says they now can have the blessings of God and they are now able to hold
the Priesthood if they are worthy.
In 1 Timothy 4:14 it says,"Neglect not the gift that in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with the the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."(Elders)
Because of authority the laying on of hands as stated in scripture. Where again did your
authority to the Priesthood come from? Everyone has the right to read and relay what you
believe the Bible says but, it still does not give you the authority of the Priesthood.

Keep Marching,
Skippy Smiler


Skippy, the "laying on of hands" as an attribute of aome elite priesthood is not a New Testament concept. You Mormons have just imagined a link between laying on of hands and priesthood and you serve that up as alleged proof of the unscriptural sacerdotal system that you have cooked up. You have many "priests" who serve as Mormon "elders" who do not even come close to the SCRIPTURAL qualifications for elders found in Titus I and I Timothy 3. How dare you Mormons ordain a childless, unmarried fuzzy-cheeked 18-year old as an "elder" in the face of the qualifications that the Word of God places on that office?
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
WINDSONG, Sorry Mr. Crowder, I havent been talking to you at all. you miss the entire message of the book of Hebrews. In all those instances where you have red-lettered the Melchizedek priesthood, the writer is discussing not man, but Jesus Christ as the holder of that priesthood. The eldership described in I Timothy 4:14 is in no way linked to the Melchidezek priesthood, except through a wild illogical stretch of the imagination.

Those in the "royal priesthood" described by Peter are simply those who have fully accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and been "translated...into the kingdom of [God's] dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). There is no requirement for any kind of ceremonial laying on of hands in commection with that.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by skippy delepepper:
Also Beternu,

You say that the verse in," 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a royal priesthood , an holy nation,
a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out
of the darkness into his marvellous light.", is the bases of everyone holding the priesthood.
In 1 Peter 2:10 it says,"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of
God;: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." This is speaking of the
Gentiles. It says they now can have the blessings of God and they are now able to hold
the Priesthood if they are worthy.
In 1 Timothy 4:14 it says,"Neglect not the gift that in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with the the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."(Elders)
Because of authority the laying on of hands as stated in scripture. Where again did your
authority to the Priesthood come from? Everyone has the right to read and relay what you
believe the Bible says but, it still does not give you the authority of the Priesthood.

Keep Marching,
Skippy Smiler


Skippy, the "laying on of hands" as an attribute of aome elite priesthood is not a New Testament concept. You Mormons have just imagined a link between laying on of hands and priesthood and you serve that up as alleged proof of the unscriptural sacerdotal system that you have cooked up. You have many "priests" who serve as Mormon "elders" who do not even come close to the SCRIPTURAL qualifications for elders found in Titus I and I Timothy 3. How dare you MormonsMr Crowder, this is WINDSONG, How dare us Mormons? Who are you? You are nobody in the scheem of things. You hold no power and have no authority from God to HOW DARE anyone. You have no knowledge of the things you believe in, you just have BELIEF. And belief ads up to nothing. How dare us Mormons indeed! ordain a childless, unmarried fuzzy-cheeked 18-year old as an "elder" in the face of the qualifications that the Word of God places on that office?

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Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Skippy, I hope you have also learned that Churches of Christ do NOT subscribe to the notion of original sin as you erroneously claim nor do they believe that unbaptized little children are destined for hell. You will not find elders in Churches of Christ being paid, except very rarely and that is a fully scriptural thing that Mormons should not make any objection to. I Timothy 5:17 & 18 makes that very clear:

"17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

As to the priesthood, I go by what the scriptures say. Peter wrote about the priesthood, which he assigns to the whole body of Christians, not to some elite group:

"9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"

The priesthood of the type prescribed in the Old Testament was done away with when Jesus established a New Covenant. Read all about that in Hebrews 10. No Apostle, evangelist, or other person in the First Century Church was ever referred to in the new Testament as a "priest" other than in the passage I have quoted above from I Timothy. The two forms of the Mormon "priesthood" have no legitimate place in the church that Jesus established, nor do the contrived Mormon offices of President, Quorum of the Seventy, First and Second Counselors, etc. These are all parts of a system that bears no resemblance to the Biblical model for church governance. The Mormon office of "high priest" is a blasphemous invention, since the Bible clearly states that Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 8:1). How dare any man usurp the office bestowed on Jesus Christ? You need to read the Book of Hebrews, Skippy, especially Chapters 7-9 and try to get yourself straight on this priesthood thing. The Mormon priesthood is a mongerel concept, created by unscripturally bringing into your cult elements of the Old Testament that have been replaced by a newer and better covenant.

_____________________________________________________

Beternu,
yes I now know that the Churches of Christ do no beleive in original sin
and yes Timothy 5:18 refers to support of clergy if needed. As you say the
priesthood should not be for just an elite group. In the LDS Church all worthy
males 12 years of age can be ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood. Then at the
age of 18 worthy young men can be ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.
which is named after Melchizedeck King of Salem Priest of the most High God.
Genesis 14:18. As for the priesthood of the Old Testament being done away
with in Hebrews 10, this is not true. Hebrews 10 talks of the doing away with
blood sacrifice with the crusification of Christ. The blood sacrifices of the
Old Testament were in place of Christ's crusification. In Hebrews 5:1 it says;
"For every High Priest taken from among men is ordained for men
in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices
for sins." Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he
that is called of God , as was Aaron. Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another
place, Thou art a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of salem, priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him.
Hebrews 7:2 To whom also gave a tenth of all; first being by interpretation
King of rightousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace:
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of
Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth,
Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made a priest.
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled
, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 4:14 Seeing
then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the
Son of God, let us hold fast to our profession. There are many references
just in the New Testament that refer to the order of the Priesthood. There is
nothing describing Jesus or anyone doing away with the priesthood, it even
states that Jesus is a High Priest. It also states that the priesthood is for
ever. We know(LDS) that the Priesthood is the governing force of the universe,
thru God. Yes God is a Mormon God but he is also everyones God, even Athiests,
Moslems, Jews, Buddists, Christains, everyone who lives in his universe, And
that he created all of us in this universe. He has only one Begotten Son
Jesus Christ. As the scriptures of the Old and New Testament state,
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieith, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.
So please Beternu show me were, any where in the Bible(King James Version) that
it states anything about the Priesthood of God our Father and His Son Jesus Christ
has been discontinued. You can't, it's not there. But it is there where it states
that it is a forever Priesthood. It is received through ordination from a
worthy Priesthood holder. 1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that was given
thee by prophecy, with the laying on of hands of the presbytery.*
*(Elders, holders of the Melchisedec Priesthood.)
So why you believe that you
are just born into the Priesthood or receive it from belief, I see no scripture
that backs up your claim. Also at the begining of your Church during the
restoration movement in the early 1800's. Where did the Priesthood come from?
Was it transfered from the Churches that your Churches brook off from? If so
how was it transfered from the Pentecost, 30 A.D.. Also in Christ's original
Church it discribes Bishops which your Churches don't have.(correct me if I'm
wrong) So how you get cult out of Christ's original Church, which we are, and
how you don't understand about the priesthood, when it is plainly printed in
the scriptures, I don't know. Plus all the references in the Old Testament and
the many I didn't refer to in the New Testament, surely testify to not only the
existance of the Holy Priesthood, but in the order that it is in the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Thank You and Keep Marching,
Skippy Smiler

I want to flash back to April 2011 on as Cage described, we we’re involved in the Mormon Wars. It was funny because he had a a picture of some Rock-Um Sock-Um Robots. Funny stuff. It’s funny how things go in cycles we go thru a certain battle with Bill throwing the C-Word all over the place but in reality he is of the cult. Beternun and Bill were tag-teaming and really thought they had an argument. But the fact is every source Beternun / Bill as fact I shown to be fraud. That’s something I’ve noticed bfred forgot to back up his claims. But as you will read in these rather long posts/replies you will see sources and debunking of these sources. I’m not here to put anybody down or say betern anyone else, because I’m not. As far as semi’s question to Dwight, I don’t think he answered it fully. This was the one about the need for a second book of God. The Book of Mormon was partially from the Old Testament. This is because of the fact that the writers of the Book of Mormon originated in The Holy Land. This Book is not to replace the Bible but it started as a equivalent to the Bible. The People of the Americas could not have received missionaries because of well the Oceans. So why would God give the gospel to one part of the world and not the other? So this (The Book of Mormon) was a history of these people and the Gospel which is the same as that of the Early Church of Jesus Christ. So please grab a cup of coffee or cocoa and enjoy the post. Try to remember the facts this time. 

Skippy

I'm just now seeing this and am disappointed. Factoid means:

 

1. A piece of unverified or inaccurate information that is presented in the press as factual, often as part of a publicity effort, and that is then accepted as true because of frequent repetition: "What one misses finally is what might have emerged beyond both facts and factoidsa profound definition of the Marilyn Monroe phenomenon" (Christopher Lehmann-Haupt).
2. Usage Problem A brief, somewhat interesting fact.
 
So, we have a "usage problem."
 
It's also interesting that some dictionaries will now tell how the word (and other words) has come to be misused. There are many articles on the decadence of some dictionaries as well. Rule of thumb: if it ends in "oid," it means like but not actual.

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