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Read this and tell me that isn't so:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

 

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States...

 

...In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

 

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

 

 

'The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.'

'When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.'

'And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.'

'An elective despotism was not the government we fought for.' - Thomas Jefferson

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For starters, that some of our Founding Fathers believed in some type of "Creator" or "Nature's God", does not mean they were necessarily Christian or that they wanted a theistic-based government of any kind. The primary authors of The Declaration of Independence were Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Livingston and Roger Sherman. I bet I could find plenty of these author's own written words that describe, without question, their overall negative thoughts about Christianity in particular and religion as a whole. Happy 4th of July!

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Time for one of them to drag out and dust off that old lie, "congress bought bibles".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You mean this one?

 

"The most complete form Jefferson produced was inherited by his grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, and was published in 1895 by the National Museum in Washington. The book was later published as a lithographic reproduction by an act of the United States Congress in 1904. For many years copies were given to new members of Congress.[9]


The Smithsonian published the first full-color facsimile[10] of the Jefferson Bible on November 1, 2011. Released in tandem with a Jefferson Bible exhibit at the National Museum of American History, the reproduction features introductory essays by Smithsonian Political History curators Harry R. Rubenstein and Barbara Clark Smith, and Smithsonian Senior Paper Conservator Janice Stagnitto Ellis. The book's pages were digitized using a Hasselblad H4D50-50 megapixel DSLR camera and a Zeiss 120 macro lens, and were photographed by Smithsonian photographer, Hugh Talman.[11]

The entire Jefferson Bible is available to view, page-by-page, on the Smithsonian National Museum of American History's website. The high-resolution digitization enables the public to see the minute details and anomalies of each page, and uniquely experience the book.

The text is in the public domain and freely available on the Internet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible


Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You mean this one?


No.

Best is dreaming again.  She may have one person in mind but the majority realize and acknowledge that Congress did not print Bibles or pay for Bibles but Congress DID Authorize the Importation of Bibles from Europe.  That importation never took place but IF it had the question that looms is just how would they have been paid for if not by our Government who authorized them to be imported?  

 

http://acheritagegroup.org/blog/?p=55       is a great site that accurately (with references) outlines what happened and why.  Just to save many from having to go to the link and read I will repost what was from that site which mentions "buying Bibles" but that title would only have been accurate if the importation was done as approved:  I have also put my personal comments within the quoted text in red print.

 

But, it was actually 1778 when the Continental Congress did consider purchasing bibles from overseas.

The story behind this is interesting. It was a period of price gouging and the price of bibles was out of the reach of most, creating a shortage. Three ministers from Philadelphia, Francis Alison, John Ewing, and William Marshall, came up with a plan to alleviate the Bible shortage. They wrote a memorial to Congress alerting them to the problem and suggesting a plan to import paper and print it in Philadelphia. Referred to the Committee of Commerce, it was discussed and it did not seem to be a good idea when faced with the practice of price gouging by local printers. The Committee concluded its deliberations by passing the following motion:

<dl><dd>Whereupon, the Congress was moved, to order the Committee of Commerce to import twenty thousand copies of the Bible. [1]
Note the approval to IMPORT the Bibles which IF Imported surely would have been paid for by Government funds.  Maybe it would have been reimbursed and the Bibles sold but the money to purchase would have come form Congress and our Government if they were  imported as it was authorized to be done.  Also IF, as it's being told today, there was a complete separation of Church and State, then Congress would have never approved importation of the Bibles.
</dd></dl>

The motion was voted on with seven states voting yes and six states voting no. A second motion was then made to pass a resolution to import the Bibles, but this was postponed and never brought up again. Three years later

<dl><dd>The issue of the Bible supply was raised again in Congress in 1780 when it was moved that the states be requested to procure one or more new and correct editions of the old and new testament to be published. [2]</dd></dl>

James McLene, a delegate from Pennsylvania, proposed a resolution to regulate the printing of Bibles in the individual states. The motion was as follows:

<dl><dd>Resolved, That it be recommended to such of the States who may think it convenient for them that they take proper measures to procure one or more new and correct editions of the old and new testament to be printed and that such states regulate their printers by law so as to secure effectually the said books from being misprinted. [3]
Seems like there is great emphasis on getting the material printed without errors.  They no doubt considered the Bible as a very special Book, Special no doubt because it was considered GOD's Words to man.
</dd></dl>

Congress never published the bible. A private edition of the Bible was published later by Robert Aitken. Born in Scotland, Aitken came to Philadelphia as a bookseller in 1769, returned to Scotland, then returned to Philadelphia in 1771. He followed the business of book selling and binding. In 1774, he became a printer and later produced the first English-language Bible printed in the colonies. Congress passed a resolution endorsing and recommending Mr. Aitken’s work and gave him permission to print the Congressional endorsement in the  bible. [4]


If, as they interpret it today, the first amendment was to mean a total and complete separation of Church and State, then please, will our Constitutional scolars  explain for us why Congress would pass such a resolution in the first place?   Why, also, years earlier did they even approve importation of 20,000 Bibles whether they were purchased or not?   Also regarding that resolution to IMPORT the Bibles please explain, rationally, in a way that the most simplistic of us could understand, how could they have been imported if funds were not allotted for them?   Where do you believe the money was to come from if not from the Government and surely it's beyond reason to believe that approval to import the Bibles would not have included instructions or a way to pay for them. so although Congress did not publish a Bible or pay for Bibles is it beyond reason to say that had the importation gone ahead as resolved and approved that they would have been paid for by that same Congress or our Government?  If your answer to that is NO Congress would not have then answer why would Congress get involved at all unless they were to fund the importation?  Also WHY even provide and give a Congressional endorsement with permission for Aiken to print along in his Bibles? 


 

The very fact that the Continental Congress would consider promoting the bible and its printing to be available for all to read speaks volumes about our Christian foundations. Congress was recognizing God as Sovereign over us, freedom of religion, and availability to access the word of God. Access to the word of God was important because the basic foundation of the law and government was based on the Holy Scriptures.

Sources:
[1] Worthington C. Ford, ed., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, vol. 8, (Washington D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1907), 734
[2] Religion and the Founding of the American Republic companion book; James H. Hutson, Library of Congress (April 15, 1998)
[3] Gaillard Hunt, ed., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, vol. 18, (Washington D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1910), 979
[4] The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States,Benjamin F. Morris; George W. Childs [Printer] 1874, Pages 218-219 (Original Edition)

 

Not a valid answer to my question.   I'm not concerned with what Glenn Beck said or believes for that's him and he didn't ask you the question or make the statement I did.  I laid out my statement and reasoning adequately I believe so that anyone could understand and ask for a reply.  I did not ask for a response to something Glenn Beck said.  He appears to be talking about Aiken's Bible anyway.  The 20,000 Bibles approved for IMPORT was years before that resolution or act.  

 

That is what most of the questions were about, not Aiken and not what Glenn Beck Said which also apparently was about Aiken.  I included that last response about endorsement for Aiken but the bulk of the questions was about the approval for Importing the 20,000 Bibles and not about Glenn Beck or Aiken's Bible.

 

So I'll ask for a response, same questions, again.

 
 

If, as they interpret it today, the first amendment was to mean a total and complete separation of Church and State, then please, will our Constitutional scolars  explain for us why Congress would pass such a resolution in the first place?   Why, also, years earlier did they even approve importation of 20,000 Bibles whether they were purchased or not?   Also regarding that resolution to IMPORT the Bibles please explain, rationally, in a way that the most simplistic of us could understand, how could they have been imported if funds were not allotted for them?   Where do you believe the money was to come from if not from the Government and surely it's beyond reason to believe that approval to import the Bibles would not have included instructions or a way to pay for them. so although Congress did not publish a Bible or pay for Bibles is it beyond reason to say that had the importation gone ahead as resolved and approved that they would have been paid for by that same Congress or our Government?  If your answer to that is NO Congress would not have then answer why would Congress get involved at all unless they were to fund the importation?  Also WHY even provide and give a Congressional endorsement with permission for Aiken to print along in his Bibles?



_______________

GBRK, you really are confused when it comes to history. 


Your first question, if the Continental Congress were all about separation of church and state as defined today, why did they pass the Aitken Bible resolution?  The simple answer is that the Constitution wouldn't be drafted and ratified until 1789, almost 10 years after the resolution. Separation of church and state was not a Constitutional concept, yet.  We still had a war to fight and a federal government to establish and see fail before there would be a Constitution.


The reason that Congress approved importation - actually, they just approved looking into importation - was because the war caused many shortages, and they were afraid of price gouging.  No funds were allocated because the investigation revealed the cost of imported Bibles to be way beyond their means.  The Bibles couldn't be imported because the cost was too high.


They didn't give Aitken any sort of approval to publish his Bible.  He was free to publish anything he chose to. Aitken sought some sort of "authorization" from Congress to print the Bible as a marketing tool.  All Congress provided was an endorsement of the Bible after a subcommittee reviewed if for accuracy.


You've been told this before, shown the documentation, and still put a spin on the facts. 

Doggie is right.  The Founders did believe in God.

 

He wasn't necessarily the God of the Bible.  Many of them were Deists, who believed in a nebulous god who made the Universe and then let it spin as it would.  Few of the Founders believed in a personal god who takes notice of his created ones, answers prayers, cares with whom one sleeps and in what position, etc.

 

Would that more religious people these days were so Enlightened.

 

DF

Though not a governing document in any way, the wording and ideals of inherent human liberty in the Declaration of Independence are clearly Deist in nature and evolved from a climate of Freethought, as inspired by the Enlightenment in Europe.

It's embarrassing that so many people who ought to know better allow themselves to be blindly influenced by the Liars for Jesus who find our nation's history to be so unpalatable that they try to pass on a revised version of our it, replete with lies about the views of our own Founding Fathers, in order to contort reality into more religious wishful thinking.

The Founding Fathers were well-educated, free-thinking men who opposed tyranny, including the tyranny that religions and theocracies have on human beings and their forms of government. Though they may have believed in an impersonal creator who did not intervene on Earth or communicate with humans through revelation or books, some of the Founding Fathers disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus, the concept of the Trinity and truth of the Virgin Birth. You will also never find a single mention of Jesus or the Bible in our founding and governing documents - that's not by accident.

But hey, if the Liars for Jesus wish to return our country to its ideological origins, I'm all for it! It'll be an environment of enlightened reason, free though, science and the open questioning of religion and mythologies.

Continue on in you imaginations if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.  To suggest though that these founders and men along with the majority of citizens did not accept the God of Judaism and Christianity as the Creator is beyond reason.  Even in our Declaration of Independence which is the defining document that Started America and declared our independence from England and the King addressees the Creator in the very wording " they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" .  Just because you don't want to accept God or believe in God don't go imagine or try and make others believe that these men did not respect and acknowledge the Christian/Jewish God as Creator of our souls and Universe as they knew it.  Additionally in the text we find: "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States"  then finally they end with:  "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."


Maybe you should aquatint yourselves with the meaning of "divine Providence and Sacred.  There is no doubt that with a study of the men who drafted and signed these documents, our Constitution and other writings of theirs that they were men who honored, believed and respected God, the God of the Christian Bible, the same God that the Jews call Divine God.   Reject Him if you will but you demonstrate your own ignorance and bias and prejudice in your attempts to convolute, in a deceptive and false way, history and the men who were greatly responsible for this country and our Government.  It must really eat on you greatly so you attempt to alter things to be more acceptable to your own thinking.  Sorry but I nor most who are students of the History of this country will not buy or accept your vain attempts to rewrite history into your own acceptable (to you) version.

It's funny how they pretend certain things never happened, like this. 

--------------------------------------------------

Bids for the 1792 Silver Center penny reached $1.15 million Thursday night, according to Heritage Auctions, which conducted the sale. The U.S. Mint itself was founded in April, 1792.

 

Todd Imhof at Heritage Auctions told ABC that unlike today's legal tender which bears the inscription, "In God We Trust," the copper-silver penny reads "Liberty Parent of Science & Industry."

"At the time, industry and science reflected an enlightenment mindset," Imhof said. "People believed freedom of thought and industrial growth would bind and unify the new country, not religion or God."

Originally Posted by gbrk:

...There is no doubt that with a study of the men who drafted and signed these documents, our Constitution and other writings of theirs that they were men who honored, believed and respected God, the God of the Christian Bible, the same God that the Jews call Divine God...

==

For starters, (supposedly your Christian/Bible-loving) Thomas Jefferson described the good parts in the Bible "diamonds in a dunghill" and chopped the Bible up into pieces to remove all the goofy bits.

 


"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -- Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -- Benjamin Franklin

"He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." -- Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." -- Benjamin Franklin

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." -- Benjamin Franklin


"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it." -- John Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.  Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." -- John Adams

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.  And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY?  The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded.  But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." -- John Adams

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world." -- John Adams

 


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched.  Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion.  Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -- Thomas Jefferson

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- Thomas Jefferson

"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ." -- Thomas Jefferson


That's what I came up in 15 minutes as I get ready to head to work. There's a lot more like it out there from these men and other founders like Madison, Paine, Washington, etc. Look it up & educate yourself in the history of your country. You seem like a nice and smart man gbrk, but you proven repeatedly to us here that history is not your bag. Off to work I go.

Originally Posted by vega:

Rob, they all believed in God. If it is found one of them did not that fact just simply makes them an atheist nothing else so what's your point?

___

They all believed in God, but they did not create a theocracy or even a "Christian nation."  Crusty's post, above, shows how some of you Christian nationists distort and pervert history in vain pursuit of your spurious and laughable claim that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

...There is no doubt that with a study of the men who drafted and signed these documents, our Constitution and other writings of theirs that they were men who honored, believed and respected God, the God of the Christian Bible, the same God that the Jews call Divine God...

==

For starters, (supposedly your Christian/Bible-loving) Thomas Jefferson described the good parts in the Bible "diamonds in a dunghill" and chopped the Bible up into pieces to remove all the goofy bits.

 


"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -- Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -- Benjamin Franklin

"He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." -- Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." -- Benjamin Franklin

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." -- Benjamin Franklin


"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it." -- John Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.  Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." -- John Adams

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.  And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY?  The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded.  But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." -- John Adams

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world." -- John Adams

 


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched.  Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion.  Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -- Thomas Jefferson

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- Thomas Jefferson

"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ." -- Thomas Jefferson


That's what I came up in 15 minutes as I get ready to head to work. There's a lot more like it out there from these men and other founders like Madison, Paine, Washington, etc. Look it up & educate yourself in the history of your country. You seem like a nice and smart man gbrk, but you proven repeatedly to us here that history is not your bag. Off to work I go.

I will not take the time to cite EVERY case of you taking history out of context for your own personal biased position against religion.  You and others may take 1% of something to make a dogmatic opinion on and IGNORE 99% that contradicts your own biased personal beliefs.  JOHN ADAMS is but ONE example above and since you are so happy to read QUOTES of those men let me add another by John Adams as well as the COMPLETE text of the quote of Adams in his letter to Thomas Jefferson from which you draw out ONLY that which meets your own biased opinion.  You fail though to include the complete text where it is OBVIOUS that Adams is NOT saying what you try to alter him to say.  

 

What purpose would you have to use such deception?  Maybe because you rely upon 15 minutes or maybe the research from other biased people with an agenda to try and distort history.

 

Here are some of his quotes:

 

John Adams

The second President (or tenth if you consider John Hanson the first) wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

 

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

Now addressing the quote you gave I shall present the paragraph from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson from which you draw out only a small fraction of what was typed or written and take it out of context.  Much alike NBC did when they edited out the 911 dispatcher in their conversation with Zimmerman about Travon Marton.  You only pull out what you want and twist it to make it something it isn't.  Adams was NOT saying what you tried to imply he was saying.

However, Adams is often quoted as saying, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!”

However, here’s the complete quotation in an April 19, 1817, letter to Thomas Jefferson:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!” But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.


How about the following from him:

John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating,

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."


 

In order to adequately understand some of the comments regarding religion you would have to be able to step into their shoes.  Within the colonies and early states there was an overwhelming influence of various denominations and churches.  There were sharp disagreements on various doctrines and much division and arguing.  

 

No one is trying to say they were trying to make this a Christian nation but rather that the majority of people who brought about our country were God believing and many called themselves Christians.  The God and Bible that they believed in was the same God and Bible that Christianity believed in as well.  

 

As for the specific individuals and their conduct in their lives that is for them to judge for themselves and now anyone else, much less we who come centuries later in different times.  No one is saying that they were perfect people, lived perfect lives and yes some did detestable things and owned slaves but never the less they still believed in GOD and they trusted and honored the Bible as God's given word unto man and honored it with reverence.  You can take partial quotes out of context or even find things they said as use that to try and justify your position but the BULK of their writings and published material will attest to their personal belief in God as creator of mankind and the world and universe.  Still you take such small samples and attempt to draw a conclusion that most of the evidence contradicts.   Not many of these men believed the same thing and many times their differences caused conflicts and disagreements but they were unified in their mission and unified in their overall belief in God and that our nation should respect God as Creator.  

 
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by vega:

Rob, they all believed in God. If it is found one of them did not that fact just simply makes them an atheist nothing else so what's your point?

___

They all believed in God, but they did not create a theocracy or even a "Christian nation."  Crusty's post, above, shows how some of you Christian nationists distort and pervert history in vain pursuit of your spurious and laughable claim that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution.

who are you talking to contendah? yourself possibly??  I don't know anyone on here that has claimed that we were, are or ever will be a theocracy and I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise to a seperation of church and state in the Constitution. There again contendah you are hubbing up to the atheists hoping to have friends should you find yourself in hell someday. The atheists will eat your flesh.

 

 

 
"all your base are belong to us" "you have no chance to survive, make your time "

Originally Posted by vega:
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by vega:

Rob, they all believed in God. If it is found one of them did not that fact just simply makes them an atheist nothing else so what's your point?

___

They all believed in God, but they did not create a theocracy or even a "Christian nation."  Crusty's post, above, shows how some of you Christian nationists distort and pervert history in vain pursuit of your spurious and laughable claim that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution.

who are you talking to contendah? yourself possibly??  I don't know anyone on here that has claimed that we were, are or ever will be a theocracy and I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise to a seperation of church and state in the Constitution. There again contendah you are hubbing up to the atheists hoping to have friends should you find yourself in hell someday. The atheists will eat your flesh.

 

 

 
"all your base are belong to us" "you have no chance to survive, make your time "

___

 

"Theocracy," "Christian nation" or whatever you want to call all this "Christian nation" babble that is constantly blurted out by ultraconservative pseudohistorians like David Barton, the FACT is that no amount of quoting the personal statements of any or all of the founders or framers establishes that they created a "Christian nation."  The writers of the Constitution included very little in it by way of references to religion, and what they did include was not in the original Constitution, but appeared later in the First Amendment. If they were so hot and bothered about establishing a Christian nation, it would seem that they would have at least made some mention of religion, and specifically of Christianity, when they put out the First Edition. But they did not.

 

Bestworking, above, posted a link to an article in the Huffington Post that simply explodes a phony contention by the pseudohistorian and Christian nationist nut, David Barton and his patron, the regrettable Glenn Beck.  Those who did not open and read that link missed out on a masterful expose' of just how distorted the bogus claims of these historical revisionists can be. Here is that link again.  Read it and see how hungry Beck and Barton must have been after their lunch was totally consumed by Chris Rodda, the skilled writer and researcher who aut****d the article:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-did-n_b_598698.html

Originally Posted by gbrk:

In order to adequately understand some of the comments regarding religion you would have to be able to step into their shoes.  Within the colonies and early states there was an overwhelming influence of various denominations and churches.  There were sharp disagreements on various doctrines and much division and arguing.  

 

No one is trying to say they were trying to make this a Christian nation but rather that the majority of people who brought about our country were God believing and many called themselves Christians.  The God and Bible that they believed in was the same God and Bible that Christianity believed in as well.  

 

As for the specific individuals and their conduct in their lives that is for them to judge for themselves and now anyone else, much less we who come centuries later in different times.  No one is saying that they were perfect people, lived perfect lives and yes some did detestable things and owned slaves but never the less they still believed in GOD and they trusted and honored the Bible as God's given word unto man and honored it with reverence.  You can take partial quotes out of context or even find things they said as use that to try and justify your position but the BULK of their writings and published material will attest to their personal belief in God as creator of mankind and the world and universe.  Still you take such small samples and attempt to draw a conclusion that most of the evidence contradicts.   Not many of these men believed the same thing and many times their differences caused conflicts and disagreements but they were unified in their mission and unified in their overall belief in God and that our nation should respect God as Creator.  

 

___________________________________

 

Most of the framers were Deist. So yes they believed in a God, but not the bible. Read up on Thomas Jefferson's bible. He re-wrote it because he believed that it was full of mythical BS. Benjamin Franklin didn't believe in Christianity or the bible either.

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that they did not have any beliefs in the supernatural, but history proves that it was not Christianity. Not by all or them or the most important contributors to the Constitution.

 

Paine, might be the exception. I don't know if he believed in any religion. He seems to equally despise them all.

 

___

 

"Theocracy," "Christian nation" or whatever you want to call all this "Christian nation" babble that is constantly blurted out by ultraconservative pseudohistorians like David Barton, the FACT is that no amount of quoting the personal statements of any or all of the founders or framers establishes that they created a "Christian nation."  The writers of the Constitution included very little in it by way of references to religion, and what they did include was not in the original Constitution, but appeared later in the First Amendment. If they were so hot and bothered about establishing a Christian nation, it would seem that they would have at least made some mention of religion, and specifically of Christianity, when they put out the First Edition. But they did not.

 

Bestworking, above, posted a link to an article in the Huffington Post that simply explodes a phony contention by the pseudohistorian and Christian nationist nut, David Barton and his patron, the regrettable Glenn Beck.  Those who did not open and read that link missed out on a masterful expose' of just how distorted the bogus claims of these historical revisionists can be. Here is that link again.  Read it and see how hungry Beck and Barton must have been after their lunch was totally consumed by Chris Rodda, the skilled writer and researcher who aut****d the article:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-did-n_b_598698.html

__________________________

 

Very good read. I had missed this when Best posted, so thanks for the repost.

 

I have to chuckle when many Christians like gb and Bill say in one sentence that they are not talking about a theocracy, then turn around and say this nation was founded as a Christian nation. Its like silly double speak. I don't know if they just don't understand what a theocracy is or if they are actually trying to fool someone. Either way, its silly and will not fly!

Is that all you've got gbrk? I hope not. Interesting how you only dispute 1 quote out of 18. You must have very low standards for what it takes to prove something but I'm not surprised given your religious beliefs.

More importantly to your disputed main point though, you've claimed that your own study of our nation's foundational documents, like the Constitution, and even that the bulk of the Founder's own writings reveal to you, without a doubt, that they all honored, believed in, respected and revered the Christian God and the Christian Bible.

So let's see your proof.

1. I challenge you to show us where your studies demonstrate proof that Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington personally proclaimed their repentance of Sin & their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior & their adherence to the Holy Bible.

2. I challenge you to show us where the Founders have written that they believe in the Virgin Birth & the Divinity of Jesus & the Trinity & the Resurrection.

3. I challenge you to show us where you found the mentions to Jesus, the Bible, or anything that's strictly Christian --NOT DEIST-- in your thorough studies of our Constitution or other governing/foundational documents.

If you can prove these things, I'll quit the forum and join you in church next week.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

___

 

"Theocracy," "Christian nation" or whatever you want to call all this "Christian nation" babble that is constantly blurted out by ultraconservative pseudohistorians like David Barton, the FACT is that no amount of quoting the personal statements of any or all of the founders or framers establishes that they created a "Christian nation."  The writers of the Constitution included very little in it by way of references to religion, and what they did include was not in the original Constitution, but appeared later in the First Amendment. If they were so hot and bothered about establishing a Christian nation, it would seem that they would have at least made some mention of religion, and specifically of Christianity, when they put out the First Edition. But they did not.

 

Bestworking, above, posted a link to an article in the Huffington Post that simply explodes a phony contention by the pseudohistorian and Christian nationist nut, David Barton and his patron, the regrettable Glenn Beck.  Those who did not open and read that link missed out on a masterful expose' of just how distorted the bogus claims of these historical revisionists can be. Here is that link again.  Read it and see how hungry Beck and Barton must have been after their lunch was totally consumed by Chris Rodda, the skilled writer and researcher who aut****d the article:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-did-n_b_598698.html

__________________________

 

Very good read. I had missed this when Best posted, so thanks for the repost.

 

I have to chuckle when many Christians like gb and Bill say in one sentence that they are not talking about a theocracy, then turn around and say this nation was founded as a Christian nation. Its like silly double speak. I don't know if they just don't understand what a theocracy is or if they are actually trying to fool someone. Either way, its silly and will not fly!

WHERE?   Where and WHEN did I ever say, write, or print that our nation was founded AS A CHRISTIAN NATION, as you say?    You stated I said that so I challenge you to prove your accusation!   


Prove that or slip back into your land of misquotes and biased statements.  You and some others only hear what you want to hear and turn what's actually said into something that it isn't.  I now accuse you of lying, lying about me and what I said.  If you have any dignity or are a honest person you will do one of two things:   First PROVE where I said this nation was founded as a Christian Nation or Openly recant what you said and apologize for your misquote.   Knowing your apparent ethics though you will do neither.

 
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Is that all you've got gbrk? I hope not. Interesting how you only dispute 1 quote out of 18. You must have very low standards for what it takes to prove something but I'm not surprised given your religious beliefs.

More importantly to your disputed main point though, you've claimed that your own study of our nation's foundational documents, like the Constitution, and even that the bulk of the Founder's own writings reveal to you, without a doubt, that they all honored, believed in, respected and revered the Christian God and the Christian Bible.

So let's see your proof.

1. I challenge you to show us where your studies demonstrate proof that Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington personally proclaimed their repentance of Sin & their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior & their adherence to the Holy Bible.

2. I challenge you to show us where the Founders have written that they believe in the Virgin Birth & the Divinity of Jesus & the Trinity & the Resurrection.

3. I challenge you to show us where you found the mentions to Jesus, the Bible, or anything that's strictly Christian --NOT DEIST-- in your thorough studies of our Constitution or other governing/foundational documents.

If you can prove these things, I'll quit the forum and join you in church next week.

I shall not because I never said they were Christians, Christians,  today Claim Christ as savior.  I have and did and do claim that they Believed in GOD as creator of man and the universe and that they held the Bible as the word of God and in high esteem.  That they were not as many of you attempt to paint them hostile to religion or God.    I have said that most of the citizens were God believing people but as to their exact doctrines and beliefs I don't know nor do you.  You however have a habit of attempting to take little quotes, many out of context, and portray these men as non-believers just like you and others.  You LIE about what I have said about this nation being formed a Christian nation for I have never said such or written such so QUIT being deceitful regarding what I have said or quote it and reference the post topic, date, and time.  If you expect credibility then you should be credible or honest in your post and not speak from your own biases and prejudices whereby you attempt to influence others into believing the same.   If someone falsely accuses you then you would get upset why is that right not extended to another whom you have lied about?

 

As for Ben Franklin :

Benjamin Franklin's Creed

A few weeks before his death at age 84, Benjamin Franklin summarized his religious beliefs, in terms with which I could readily associate myself:

You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.

Here is my creed.

  • I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
  • That he governs by his providence.
  • That he ought to be worshipped.
  • That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
  • That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,

  • I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
  • and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
  • though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
  • I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
  • especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.

Benj. Franklin, Letter to Ezra Stiles, 9 March 1790, in John Bigelow, ed., The Works of Benjamin Franklin, at 12:185-86 (New York: Putnam’s, 1904) (paragraphing edited and bullets added for readability).

 

http://acheritagegroup.org/blog/?p=596    <--- is another site about Ben Franklin and his beliefs.

 

 

 
I shall not because I never said they were Christians
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Posted in your thread entitled:
A Christian Nation
 
 
 
 
Old Faithful
 
March 21, 2011 11:05 PM
 

Seems many are fond of YouTube videos so here is my contribution.

Click for YouTube Presentation 

Click for additional information on Founders

Click for interview with this same person highlighting others 

Click for URL Home for Wallbuilders site

The YouTube presentation will in no way dispel doubts about how our founders felt regarding Christianity but it behooves those who dispute that our country was founded by Christians on Christian principals and those who want to remove Religion from anything to do with Government to prove their case, in a similar way, in order to add any validity to their statements.

Here is a reference to one detractors however the proof, of their statements, is also missing. They make statements yet have no sources or presentation of evidence of their assertions other than the statement they make.

Click for MSNBC's Countdown's rebuttal of the material
Last edited by Bestworking

Now as to Thomas Jefferson:

Thomas Jefferson, as we all know, was a skeptic, a man so hostile to Christianity that he scissored from his Bible all references to miracles. He was, as the Freedom From Religion Foundation tells us, “a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.”


Or was he? While Jefferson has been lionized by those who seek to drive religion from public life, the true Thomas Jefferson is anything but their friend. He was anything but irreligious, anything but an enemy to Christian faith. Our nation’s third president was, in fact, a student of Scripture who attended church regularly, and was an active member of the Anglican Church, where he served on his local vestry. He was married in church, sent his children and a nephew to a Christian school, and gave his money to support many different congregations and Christian causes.

 

Moreover, his “Notes on Religion,” nine documents Jefferson wrote in 1776, are “very orthodox statements about the inspiration of Scripture and Jesus as the Christ,” according to Mark Beliles, a Providence Foundation scholar and author of an enlightening essay on Jefferson’s religious life.

 

So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians. Jefferson’s “Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians” was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism.

 

Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his “abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians” would help civilize and educate America’s aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ’s healings.

 

But didn’t Jefferson believe in the complete separation of church and state? After all, Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Baptists in Danbury, Conn., in which he cited the First Amendment’s creation of a “wall of separation” between church and state, is an ACLU proof-text for its claim that the First Amendment makes the public square a religion-free zone. But if the ACLU is right, why, just two days after he sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists did President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office? And why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C.?

 

Jefferson’s outlook on religion and government is more fully revealed in another 1802 letter in which he wrote that he did not want his administration to be a “government without religion,” but one that would “strengthen … religious freedom.”

 

Jefferson was a true friend of the Christian faith. But was he a true Christian? A nominal Christian – as demonstrated by his lifelong practice of attending worship services, reading the Bible, and following the moral principles of Christ – Jefferson was not, in my opinion, a genuine Christian. In 1813, after his public career was over, Jefferson rejected the deity of Christ. Like so many millions of church members today, he was outwardly religious, but never experienced the new birth that Jesus told Nicodemus was necessary to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

Nonetheless, Jefferson’s presidential acts would, if done today, send the ACLU marching into court. He signed legislation that gave land to Indian missionaries, put chaplains on the government payroll, and provided for the punishment of irreverent soldiers. He also sent Congress an Indian treaty that set aside money for a priest’s salary and for the construction of a church.

 

Most intriguing is the manner in which Jefferson dated an official document. Instead of “in the year of our Lord,” Jefferson used the phrase “in the year of our Lord Christ.” Christian historian David Barton has the proof – the original document signed by Jefferson on the “eighteenth day of October in the year of our Lord Christ, 1804.”

 

The Supreme Court ruled in 1947 that Jefferson’s wall of separation between church and state “must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.” Judging from the record, it looks like the wall some say Tom built is, in fact, the wall Tom breached.

 

The real Thomas Jefferson, it turns out, is the ACLU’s worst nightmare.


the above from :  http://www.wnd.com/2002/06/142...d.com/2002/06/14285/

 And the following regarding Jefferson's personal Bible from cuttings he made:
I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials (The Gospels) which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. It is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. It is a document in proof that I am a REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call ME infidel and THEMSELVES Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.—Jefferson to Mr. Charles Thompson.

 

 Thomas Jefferson like many of his contemporaries was a religious man, believed in God as creator and the same God as in the Christian Bible.  Many of their hostile feelings were account of conflicts with various religions who potentially sought to influence them into making this into a Theocracy but Jefferson and many others were their own men and not the anti-Christians that you portray them to be.   They may not have been Bible thumping Christians or Christians as we call Christians today but they were Religious men who felt the Bible was the Word of God, the same God that the Jews worshiped as God and the Christians worshiped as God and who they believed created the world and all life within it and the universe around it.   For any student of history they may not have been Christians from the standpoint that they believed in the divinity of Christ or the like but they were Religious people who would have rejected atheism all together.  

 

 

 

 
Originally Posted by Bestworking:
I shall not because I never said they were Christians
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 
 
 
Old Faithful
 
March 21, 2011 11:05 PM
 

Seems many are fond of YouTube videos so here is my contribution.

Click for YouTube Presentation 

Click for additional information on Founders

Click for interview with this same person highlighting others 

Click for URL Home for Wallbuilders site

The YouTube presentation will in no way dispel doubts about how our founders felt regarding Christianity but it behooves those who dispute that our country was founded by Christians on Christian principals and those who want to remove Religion from anything to do with Government to prove their case, in a similar way, in order to add any validity to their statements.

Here is a reference to one detractors however the proof, of their statements, is also missing. They make statements yet have no sources or presentation of evidence of their assertions other than the statement they make.

Click for MSNBC's Countdown's rebuttal of the material

And just WHERE in this post do I say we are a CHRISTIAN NATION?  READ please and be accurate rather than seeing what you want to see which is distorted by your own hateful bias.  I'll repeat it for you:   I have said and do not back away from saying that our nation was a nation of Christians, founded by people who were mostly Christian, and by people who believed in GOD, that same God YOU REJECT.  I do submit that this Nation was founded upon Christian principals but NOT and I have never said was founded as a CHRISTIAN NATION as you and others want to influence others into thinking I have said which I haven't.   

 

Lying about doesn't justify anything.  Go back and find where I said this nation was founded as a CHRISTIAN NATION what I was accused of doing but didn't do.

 

gbrk,
I seriously hope you're not conveniently ducking my challenge by confusing me with DarkAngel. So let's re-focus. No more sleight of hand please.

Just in case, here is what you've recently claimed on this very thread:

"...There is no doubt that with a study of the men who drafted and signed these documents, our Constitution and other writings of theirs that they were men who honored, believed and respected God, the God of the Christian Bible, the same God that the Jews call Divine God..."

"...never the less they still believed in GOD and they trusted and honored the Bible as God's given word unto man and honored it with reverence.  You can take partial quotes out of context or even find things they said as use that to try and justify your position but the BULK of their writings and published material will attest to their personal belief in God as creator of mankind and the world and universe..."

Therefore, I -again- challenge you, in front of everyone reading this, to prove your claims:

1. I challenge you to show us where your studies demonstrate proof that Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington personally proclaimed their repentance of Sin & their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior & their adherence to the Holy Bible.

2. I challenge you to show us where the Founders have written that they believe in the Virgin Birth & the Divinity of Jesus & the Trinity & the Resurrection.

3. I challenge you to show us where you found the mentions to Jesus, the Bible, or anything that's strictly Christian --NOT DEIST-- in your thorough studies of our Constitution or other governing/foundational documents.

Since you claim to value honesty, dignity and truth, I can expect nothing less from you than your proof positive that you were being honestly factual and truthful about your claims. If not, I hope that you have the ethical integrity and dignity to admit that you were bluffing and trying to pass off more untruths.

My offer is still on the table. Prove your claims about the Founding Father's Christianity and I'll quit the forum and join you in church.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

In order to adequately understand some of the comments regarding religion you would have to be able to step into their shoes.  Within the colonies and early states there was an overwhelming influence of various denominations and churches.  There were sharp disagreements on various doctrines and much division and arguing.  

 

No one is trying to say they were trying to make this a Christian nation but rather that the majority of people who brought about our country were God believing and many called themselves Christians.  The God and Bible that they believed in was the same God and Bible that Christianity believed in as well.  

 

As for the specific individuals and their conduct in their lives that is for them to judge for themselves and now anyone else, much less we who come centuries later in different times.  No one is saying that they were perfect people, lived perfect lives and yes some did detestable things and owned slaves but never the less they still believed in GOD and they trusted and honored the Bible as God's given word unto man and honored it with reverence.  You can take partial quotes out of context or even find things they said as use that to try and justify your position but the BULK of their writings and published material will attest to their personal belief in God as creator of mankind and the world and universe.  Still you take such small samples and attempt to draw a conclusion that most of the evidence contradicts.   Not many of these men believed the same thing and many times their differences caused conflicts and disagreements but they were unified in their mission and unified in their overall belief in God and that our nation should respect God as Creator.  

 

___________________________________

 

Most of the framers were Deist. So yes they believed in a God, but not the bible. Read up on Thomas Jefferson's bible. He re-wrote it because he believed that it was full of mythical BS. Benjamin Franklin didn't believe in Christianity or the bible either.

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that they did not have any beliefs in the supernatural, but history proves that it was not Christianity. Not by all or them or the most important contributors to the Constitution.

 

Paine, might be the exception. I don't know if he believed in any religion. He seems to equally despise them all.

WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR DATA?   Do you really expect to be taken seriously?   Check the following site and maybe you might want to revise your above statement which I bolded.

http://www.usconstitution.net/...tframedata.html#rkey

 

Most were deist you say?   And just how certain are you of this?

 

How about the Declaration of Independence:   Here is the site: http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html

 

Now care to revise the information you are submitting to the group?

 
 

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