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The only liar here is YOU. You posted:

I shall not because I never said they were Christians


See that? You said you never said THEY were christians. I posted proof you DID SAY THEY were christians. As you and anyone else can plainly see, I was addressing that part of your post, and the title of your thread was "A Christian Nation". So please explain what I have misrepresented or lied about.

 

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/208733512872627457

A Christian Nation:

 

The YouTube presentation will in no way dispel doubts about how our founders felt regarding Christianity but it behooves those who dispute that our country was founded by Christians on Christian principals and those who want to remove Religion from anything to do with Government to prove their case, in a similar way, in order to add any validity to their statements.



YOUR thread, YOUR post.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The only liar here is YOU. You posted:

I shall not because I never said they were Christians


See that? You said you never said THEY were christians. I posted proof you DID SAY THEY were christians. As you and anyone else can plainly see, I was addressing that part of your post, and the title of your thread was "A Christian Nation". So please explain what I have misrepresented or lied about.

 

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/208733512872627457

Many were Christians, check out the list of the founders of the country and the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and you will see most were Christians most were men of religion.  FACE IT very few if any, most likely NONE held your belief that there is NO God.  You and the others just can't face it that our Countries history is replete with references to a God that you don't accept.  That our nation's founders were people of Religion who believed in God.

 

You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians and I don't say that.  I can surely understand your desire for it to be that way.  You and others who advocate the same are on the losing side of this argument.

 

You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians and I don't say that.  I can surely understand your desire for it to be that way.  You and others who advocate the same are on the losing side of this argument.


---------------------------------

Where am I "trying to say" anything? All I have done is re-post YOUR words. I have not changed or altered one word of what you posted. You have only yourself to blame if you're upset when reading your own words.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

A Christian Nation:

 

The YouTube presentation will in no way dispel doubts about how our founders felt regarding Christianity but it behooves those who dispute that our country was founded by Christians on Christian principals and those who want to remove Religion from anything to do with Government to prove their case, in a similar way, in order to add any validity to their statements.



YOUR thread, YOUR post.

And regarding my post consider what John Adams said about our founding documents:

 

John Adams

The second President (or tenth if you consider John Hanson the first) wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

 

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.


If our country wasn't founded upon Christian principals then why would John Adams, one who was a part of the founding, say it was?   I only repeated what John Adams said and I still avow that our nation was founded upon Christian Principals such as Belief in God as creator and divine deity that watches over us and directs us.  Principals such as freedom which Christianity/Religion teaches that we are free, in the image of God.  Respectful of our fellow man and many others.  

 
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians and I don't say that.  I can surely understand your desire for it to be that way.  You and others who advocate the same are on the losing side of this argument.


---------------------------------

Where am I "trying to say" anything? All I have done is re-post YOUR words. I have not changed or altered one word of what you posted. You have only yourself to blame if you're upset when reading your own words.

and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION!  

 

Where have I said that?  Not in the post that you repeated.  

 

but it behooves those who dispute that our country was founded by Christians

 You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians

------------------------------------------

Now show me in your post where you said "some" were christians.  Maybe you should "man up" and own your statements. What argument exactly am I losing? You are fighting with yourself about the posts YOU made. All I've done is re-post your own words.


and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION! 

-------------------------------------------

I can't believe anyone would actually call you smart. I never made such a claim. Again, all I did was post YOUR words, and the title of your thread those words come from is "A Christian Nation".

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

gbrk,
I seriously hope you're not conveniently ducking my challenge by confusing me with DarkAngel. So let's re-focus. No more sleight of hand please.

Just in case, here is what you've recently claimed on this very thread:

"...There is no doubt that with a study of the men who drafted and signed these documents, our Constitution and other writings of theirs that they were men who honored, believed and respected God, the God of the Christian Bible, the same God that the Jews call Divine God..."

"...never the less they still believed in GOD and they trusted and honored the Bible as God's given word unto man and honored it with reverence.  You can take partial quotes out of context or even find things they said as use that to try and justify your position but the BULK of their writings and published material will attest to their personal belief in God as creator of mankind and the world and universe..."

Therefore, I -again- challenge you, in front of everyone reading this, to prove your claims:

1. I challenge you to show us where your studies demonstrate proof that Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington personally proclaimed their repentance of Sin & their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior & their adherence to the Holy Bible.

2. I challenge you to show us where the Founders have written that they believe in the Virgin Birth & the Divinity of Jesus & the Trinity & the Resurrection.

3. I challenge you to show us where you found the mentions to Jesus, the Bible, or anything that's strictly Christian --NOT DEIST-- in your thorough studies of our Constitution or other governing/foundational documents.

Since you claim to value honesty, dignity and truth, I can expect nothing less from you than your proof positive that you were being honestly factual and truthful about your claims. If not, I hope that you have the ethical integrity and dignity to admit that you were bluffing and trying to pass off more untruths.

My offer is still on the table. Prove your claims about the Founding Father's Christianity and I'll quit the forum and join you in church.

Check the last columns about the founders which list the CURCH or Religion of them?  Here is the key: 

 

Religion key:

CO = Congregationalist
DE = Deist
DR = Dutch Reformed
EP = Episcopal
LU = Lutheran
ME = Methodist
PB = Presbyterian
QU = Quaker
RC = Roman Catholic

 

The list of those who signed are here:

http://www.usconstitution.net/...tframedata.html#rkey

 

NOW as to MY Challenge.  Your statement about me, your LIE as I word it said that I printed here and said that we are or were founded as a Christian Nation.  WHERE DID I DO THAT?  Not where did I say we were founded by mostly religious men/Christian men or men who believed in religion but your exact words were as a CHRISTIAN NATION.  WHERE DID I DO THIS as you say?

 

 
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Is that all you've got gbrk? I hope not. Interesting how you only dispute 1 quote out of 18. You must have very low standards for what it takes to prove something but I'm not surprised given your religious beliefs.

More importantly to your disputed main point though, you've claimed that your own study of our nation's foundational documents, like the Constitution, and even that the bulk of the Founder's own writings reveal to you, without a doubt, that they all honored, believed in, respected and revered the Christian God and the Christian Bible.

So let's see your proof.

1. I challenge you to show us where your studies demonstrate proof that Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington personally proclaimed their repentance of Sin & their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior & their adherence to the Holy Bible.

2. I challenge you to show us where the Founders have written that they believe in the Virgin Birth & the Divinity of Jesus & the Trinity & the Resurrection.

3. I challenge you to show us where you found the mentions to Jesus, the Bible, or anything that's strictly Christian --NOT DEIST-- in your thorough studies of our Constitution or other governing/foundational documents.

If you can prove these things, I'll quit the forum and join you in church next week.

I shall not because I never said they were Christians, Christians,  today Claim Christ as savior.  I have and did and do claim that they Believed in GOD as creator of man and the universe and that they held the Bible as the word of God and in high esteem.  That they were not as many of you attempt to paint them hostile to religion or God.    I have said that most of the citizens were God believing people but as to their exact doctrines and beliefs I don't know nor do you.  You however have a habit of attempting to take little quotes, many out of context, and portray these men as non-believers just like you and others.  You LIE about what I have said about this nation being formed a Christian nation for I have never said such or written such so QUIT being deceitful regarding what I have said or quote it and reference the post topic, date, and time.  If you expect credibility then you should be credible or honest in your post and not speak from your own biases and prejudices whereby you attempt to influence others into believing the same.   If someone falsely accuses you then you would get upset why is that right not extended to another whom you have lied about?

 
 

"I never said they were Christians, Christians,  today Claim Christ as savior."  

Good. So you agree that these men (Jefferson & Adams & Franklin & Madison & Washington) were not Christians, right?
Christians believe that Jesus is their Savior, right?
Christians believe in the Virgin Birth, right?
Christians believe in the Divinity of Jesus, right?
Christians believe in the Trinity, right?
Christians believe in the Resurrection of Christ, right?

"I have and did and do claim that they Believed in GOD as creator of man and the universe and that they held the Bible as the word of God and in high esteem."

Please prove that these men "held the Bible as the word of God" or admit that you're wrong or lying.

"You LIE about what I have said about this nation being formed a Christian nation for I have never said such or written such so QUIT being deceitful regarding what I have said or quote it and reference the post topic, date, and time."  If you expect credibility then you should be credible or honest in your post and not speak from your own biases and prejudices whereby you attempt to influence others into believing the same.   If someone falsely accuses you then you would get upset why is that right not extended to another whom you have lied about?"

Don't get apoplectic. I have not said these things. You keep confusing me with others. Admit that you're wrong or lying about this.

For the record, I also haven't said that the men in question were atheists.

Lastly, please note that the term "Founding Fathers" does not apply to every yahoo who originally signed the Declaration and Constitution. The Founders refers to a specific handful of people. Of the Founders cited on that website: John Adams is claimed to be a Unitarian - Thomas Jefferson is claimed to be a Deist - George Washington is claimed to be a Episcopalian - Benjamin Franklin is claimed to be a Deist - James Madison is claimed to be a Episcopalian.

Also directly from that website:
"Note on religion: Pinning down the religion of some people on this list is notoriously difficult. The "Deist" label, in particular, is a difficult one to assign. The best attempt has been made to assign labels accurately - the assignment can be debated, and this fact is readily acknowledged."

My challenge was to Dark Angel for the following statement:

"

Very good read. I had missed this when Best posted, so thanks for the repost.

 

I have to chuckle when many Christians like gb and Bill say in one sentence that they are not talking about a theocracy, then turn around and say this nation was founded as a Christian nation. Its like silly double speak. I don't know if they just don't understand what a theocracy is or if they are actually trying to fool someone. Either way, its silly and will not fly!"

 

If in the responses I accused you of that statement I apologize for it wasn't your statement but rather Dark Angel that made that statement.  Others though have alluded to it and attempted to say that I have said the same.   Also where I have made the statement that we were/are a nation of Christians I mean a nation that believed in the God of Christianity, the God of the Christian Bible and not that they conformed to the strict definition that we have today of Believing in Jesus Christ and His divinity but there is an effort to cloud the issue by taking that statement that I meant in the general sense and applying it to all.  

 

Many of the founders also had changes in their personal beliefs throughout their life.  It is difficult to imagine the context of these statements unless we were living during the time and saw the conflicts that existed between the major denominations and Churches at that time.  Conflicts that drew the ire of many of those who wrote about Christianity in those days.  They say the divisions within the Churches and from one to the next and those divisions were not light but very strong and objectionable.  There is no doubt that it had influence upon many of those men who drafted our Constitution to be sure that the Church would not have control of the Government and control or legislate their own version of morality.  There WERE NOT though non-Christains or non-Religious people who had disdain for God and Religions as some would like to believe or teach.

 

http://www.washingtonmonthly.c...06/0604.waldman.html    is yet another good URL with information regarding some of the activities with Christianity and religion in those days.

 

Common sense, of any student of history, should lead one to realize that in the great majority of people that were alive and living during that time, America's citizens they were Church going people who believed in God, the same God as in the Christian Bible (NT & OT) and the same God that Israel/Jews worshiped.  A look and study of each state's constitution will also reveal that God was prominently mentioned and referenced as Creator.  From this it is not difficult to imagine that there were great divisions and anamosity with some people about which Church or Doctrine was right.  There was such diverse belief among the peoples and great divisions between the various Churches but none the less they were "people of God" who held Religion in high esteem.  The Christian Bible was also seen as God's Word unto the People and great care was taken to insure that it's wording was kept accurate and not changed or altered.     Our government was never designed to be Christian or even to be Religious but it also was never designed or fashioned to be against God or those who accepted worship of God as God.  We were not a Christian Nation but rather we were, for the most part, a nation of Christians and even greater a nation of people who believed in God and that Religion was a Good thing for humanity and not a bad thing.  

 

My arguments regarding the founders were simply to say these men believed in God, the Christian God.  These men were not hostile to believers or Religion or Christianity however some were hostile to the actions of some of the preachers and Churches that sought to control the people and take away the people's freedom under the guise of Religion. If I ever said they were ALL Christian I never meant it that way however I do believe they all, for the most part, were believers in the God of Christianity.  They might have differed in their beliefs regarding Jesus Christ but they held Christianity or Jesus Christ, in high esteem and held God as creator and as God who watched over our new Nation and bestowed upon man his unalienable rights, the originally came from God was their belief.

 

 
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Jesus Christ, gbrk, check your glasses and take a chill pill. You keep accusing me of something I think DA or someone else said. Please quote where I claim that you said that the US was founded as a Christian nation - or else apologize.

I have no idea how you got into this but my initial Challenge was to Dark Angel regarding the post below:

Very good read. I had missed this when Best posted, so thanks for the repost.

 

I have to chuckle when many Christians like gb and Bill say in one sentence that they are not talking about a theocracy, then turn around and say this nation was founded as a Christian nation. Its like silly double speak. I don't know if they just don't understand what a theocracy is or if they are actually trying to fool someone. Either way, its silly and will not fly!

 

My challenge and my comments were to DA regarding the bolded text above.  How you got into this I don't know but forgive me if I mistook or misapplied a comment directed to you and confused you as DA.  I hope that clears that up.   My challenge was direct to DA as DA was the one who made the statement.

 

 

 

For all:  NOTE the subject heading of this thread.   My comments and point is basically that the founding fathers or the great many of them, if not all, did believe in GOD.  The same God that the Christians of today believe in, the Christian God, the Jewish God, the God that the Jews worship.  The same God as the Holy Bible is said to be the inspired word of.   

 

What I am NOT saying is that all the founders were all Christians.  Not all the nation or citizens were Christian but instead I believe the majority most likely worshiped in Churches.  Churches that was seen, at that time, as Christian Churches.  Those that were not "Christian" did believe in God (the same God as Christians worship as God) as Creator of their own souls, creator of Earth and the Universe around them.  They were people who held belief in God important and also respected and held the Bible in high regard and esteem, both New Testament and Old Testament.     It's like many today look at a Church and say it's a Christian Church yet knowing that not all or everyone in the Church is Christian.  The same is said of the founders of this nation who signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.  No they were not all Christian but they were believers in God as God, the supreme Judge and deity.  Respecting Him as God the same God that Christians worship as God the same God that Jews worship as God.  So in that frame of mind and in that vein we say the founders were Christians knowing that not all were Christian but yet all believed in the same God or most all if not all.

 

Ours is not an attempt to say that the government formed by these men was a Christian Government or that it was a theocratic form of Government.  I'm not saying that the Constitution was a religious document for it wasn't.  What I am saying is that the very people that formed our Government and system of Government drew upon principals that could be called Christian principals in the way man was to relate to man and that one man is equivalent to another man as in God's eyes.  Personal freedoms and the like and that man was meant to be a free individual as created by God.  They were not atheist, they did not desire to write God out of existence.  

 

The First Amendment was drafted, my opinion mind you, to protect Religious freedom and not to impede or restrict it.  

 
Last edited by gbrk
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians and I don't say that.  I can surely understand your desire for it to be that way.  You and others who advocate the same are on the losing side of this argument.


---------------------------------

Where am I "trying to say" anything? All I have done is re-post YOUR words. I have not changed or altered one word of what you posted. You have only yourself to blame if you're upset when reading your own words.

and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION!  

 

Where have I said that?  Not in the post that you repeated.  

 

------------------------

Are you really this dense? Do you really think by twisting and turning you will somehow "get out" of it? You dare call me a liar when I post your very words without changing them at all. I'd say that makes YOU the liar. No where, in any of my posts, did I make any accusations against you. All I did was post your own words from your own thread showing you did in deed post something you said you never posted.

-------------------------------------------------------

and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION! 

  

 

Show me where I posted that?  Show me where I have posted anything other than was title of your thread and your statements that are still "sitting" there. Do you deny the title of YOUR thread IS "A Christian Nation"? Do you deny the first post is yours? The only way you can call me a liar is to deny those things that are right there for anyone to read, which is what it looks to me that you are trying to do. I would say you owe me an apology, but some people's apology isn't worth the "screen it's printed on" and imo you're one of those people.


Wow.

 

All you biblically thumpedy theocrats keep forgetting one very important thing regarding 'freedoms' and 'rights.'

 

Your (and my) freedoms and rights, as any lawyer worth his salt can tell you-END at the 'other guy's nose.'

 

YOU have the freedom and the right to believe and worship anything you want to.

YOU DO NOT have the freedom or the right to impose your particular silliness upon anybody else.

 

America is a nation with a lot of christians in it.

It is in NO way a "christian nation."

 

By the way, as a side note, did you know that in places outside of Jesusland-in the United States of Liberty and Education- nobody particularly gives a s#!* about this stuff.

 

 

Really, it doesn't matter.

 

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

Wow.

 

All you biblically thumpedy theocrats keep forgetting one very important thing regarding 'freedoms' and 'rights.'

 

Your (and my) freedoms and rights, as any lawyer worth his salt can tell you-END at the 'other guy's nose.'

 

YOU have the freedom and the right to believe and worship anything you want to.

YOU DO NOT have the freedom or the right to impose your particular silliness upon anybody else.

 

America is a nation with a lot of christians in it.

It is in NO way a "christian nation."

 

By the way, as a side note, did you know that in places outside of Jesusland-in the United States of Liberty and Education- nobody particularly gives a s#!* about this stuff.

 

 

Really, it doesn't matter.

***********************************************

 

I'm not a thumper, don't really like talking to them, so this doesn't matter

either but you do more to drive that thumping as much as Bill.

It may not be a Christian nation, but it ain't a atheist nation either.

Am I going to post that lost day in the Bible again?

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You are trying to say that I claim that ALL are Christians and I don't say that.  I can surely understand your desire for it to be that way.  You and others who advocate the same are on the losing side of this argument.


---------------------------------

Where am I "trying to say" anything? All I have done is re-post YOUR words. I have not changed or altered one word of what you posted. You have only yourself to blame if you're upset when reading your own words.

and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION!  

 

Where have I said that?  Not in the post that you repeated.  

 

------------------------

Are you really this dense? Do you really think by twisting and turning you will somehow "get out" of it? You dare call me a liar when I post your very words without changing them at all. I'd say that makes YOU the liar. No where, in any of my posts, did I make any accusations against you. All I did was post your own words from your own thread showing you did in deed post something you said you never posted.

-------------------------------------------------------

and the statement or accusation against me was that I said our nation was a CHRISTIAN NATION! 

  

 

Show me where I posted that?  Show me where I have posted anything other than was title of your thread and your statements that are still "sitting" there. Do you deny the title of YOUR thread IS "A Christian Nation"? Do you deny the first post is yours? The only way you can call me a liar is to deny those things that are right there for anyone to read, which is what it looks to me that you are trying to do. I would say you owe me an apology, but some people's apology isn't worth the "screen it's printed on" and imo you're one of those people.


YOU are the one who couldn't just set by and allow DA to answer my question.  YOU had to insert your own big mouth in it when it didn't concern you but then that is typical so can be understood.  As for your post of what I typed I again have to state no where in it did I say this was a CHRISTIAN NATION as  DA said I an Bill did.  I'm speaking for myself not Bill but I never said it was a CHRISTIAN NATION.  IF you read that in what I posted then it's your own corrupted biased hateful bitter thinking.  All adjetives fit you very accuratly.  I'd of never posted one thing to you if you had not stuck your nose in it.  DA made the statement and although I did, wrongly, jump A Rob about it that was a mistake on my part.  YOU stuck your big nose in it, uninvited, and get upset when I claim you twist my words.  

 

READ THAT POST AGAIN.  You will not find where I say America is a Christian Nation.  Note the word CHRISTIAN NATION and read my replies which never say that but yet you insist it does.  You are so corrupt in your thinking that facts or plain print doen't sink in.   

 

See if this sinks in hateful lady.   LEAVE ME ALONE.  I WILL NOT POST ANYTHING TO YOU AND DO ME THE GREAT FAVOR OF NOT POSTING TO ME.  I CARE NOT TO HIEAR FROM YOU OR YOUR SPITEFUL POST.  YOU ARE TRULY A BITTER BIASED WOMAN.  

 

if the new format had allowded an IGNORE you would have been on it but it doesn't so I am asking again LEAVE ME ALONE.  DO NOT POST TO ME or REPLY TO ME.  I plan to IGNORE YOU from now and WILL.   You are too hateufl and bitter to reason with and YES you are DECTITFUL and twist words around.  Since you have some reading deficency ... READ AGAIN.   IGNORE ME please you bitter woman I have never encounted a person with such an aparent HARD and caustic heart/mind surely there is much anger and hatred within you and I pitty that miserable life you must live with so much hatred and bitterness.  I like to think I can have dialog with anyone but you are surely an exception and therefore again can  you read IGNORE ME for for I sure plan to IGNORE YOU!!!.

Last edited by gbrk
 


 
 
 
Old Faithful
 
July 1, 2012 8:37 PM
 
 

Time for one of them to drag out and dust off that old lie, "congress bought bibles".

 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
Old Faithful
 
July 1, 2012 11:13 PM
 
 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You mean this one?

 

No.

Best is dreaming again.  She may have one person in mind but the majority realize and acknowledge that Congress did not print Bibles or pay for Bibles but Congress DID Authorize the Importation of Bibles from Europe.  That importation never took place but IF it had the question that looms is just how would they have been paid for if not by our Government who authorized them to be imported?  

 --------------------------------

Care to tell me now just who "jumped in"????? You're on a public forum, and there have been many many times YOU jumped in without being asked a question or addressed, such as with this post of YOURS after my post. 

 

 

READ THAT POST AGAIN.  You will not find where I say America is a Christian Nation.  Note the word CHRISTIAN NATION and read my replies which never say that but yet you insist it does.  You are so corrupt in your thinking that facts or plain print doen't sink in


---------------------

Read what post gb? The post where I said your post could be found in YOUR thread that YOU "titled" A Christian Nation???  You are pathetic. You call others liars and then cry like a toddler when you are caught in lies about your own posts. You said I accused you of posting something, I didn't accuse you and you can't show me where I did, but yet I am the hatefilled one? Pftttttttttttttt. If you want to ignore me you shouldn't "jump in" when I make a post. As for corrupt "thinking", you win that award by denying the very words you typed that are still on the forum just like you typed them. See if you can get a five year old to explain it to you because apparently you can't handle it when adults post. Maybe a child could break it down so your childish mind can grasp it. 

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