No wonder the world is in a mess huh 2 each ? lmao
yep no wonder!!! LOL
yeah.
It's really funny.
DF
It's really funny.
DF
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
Miami,
I think it helps to focus on this part and perhaps highlight it a little better:quote:
Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities ( . . .) and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. (For example
The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims)
The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians;
The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics)
Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus)
Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists)
Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians)
Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians)
Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus)
Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians)
Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims)
The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims
The Caucasus (Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)
These are merely a few cases in point
Truly, Miami, each of these wars are being fought in the name of the Creator of the Universe. We see the exact same kind of madness here in the United States and in these very forums. It is enough to make one truly passionate about combating the underlying evil of religion in general and Christianity in particular.
Yes, it does. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by miamizsun:
This page is a little longer than the others, but it is important to read it all. I will break it into several posts.
From page four, first post:
Religion as a Source of Violence
One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the 21st century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns--about ethics, spiritual experience and the inevitability of human suffering--in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities--Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.--and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.
"In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)
These facts notwithstanding, religious moderates tend to imagine that human conflict is always reducible to a lack of education, to poverty or to political grievances. This is one of the many delusions of liberal piety. To dispel it, we need only reflect on the fact that the Sept. 11 hijackers were college educated and middle class and had no discernable history of political oppression. They did, however, spend an inordinate amount of time at their local mosque talking about the depravity of infidels and about the pleasures that await martyrs in Paradise. How many more architects and mechanical engineers must hit the wall at 400 miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not a matter of education, poverty or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: A person can be so well educated that he can build a nuclear bomb while still believing that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise. Such is the ease with which the human mind can be partitioned by faith, and such is the degree to which our intellectual discourse still patiently accommodates religious delusion. Only the atheist has observed what should now be obvious to every thinking human being: If we want to uproot the causes of religious violence we must uproot the false certainties of religion."
quote:The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: A person can be so well educated that he can build a nuclear bomb while still believing that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise.
That is a powerful statement. One of many in this book.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: A person can be so well educated that he can build a nuclear bomb while still believing that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise.
That is a powerful statement. One of many in this book.
This book, along with a few others is one of the first to bring religion into, and hold it to a conversational standard.
Religion has been taboo, it has gotten a pass far too long. Notice that people, seemingly normal rational people get upset when we examine it in public.
Isn't it amazing how all religious believers see through all of the other religions? See them as they really are.
Ask a believer about another religion and listen to the answer. Their religion is false because?
Not why they believe in theirs, but why(and how)do they discredit/dismiss other religions and listen to the answer. It is very telling.
As has been mentioned here before, when a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc. understands why they dismiss other religions, they will understand why I dismiss their own.
regards
quote:Originally posted by tnt5862:
No wonder the world is in a mess huh 2 each ?
Let me get this straight: The world is a mess because people like me loathe the fact that people like you start wars because other people don't agree with how you view your imaginary friend?
Thats about right . 
PS I never started a war ,,never even been in one .
PS I never started a war ,,never even been in one .
More from the AM:
Why is religion such a potent source of human violence?
* Our religions are intrinsically incompatible with one another. Either Jesus rose from the dead and will be returning to Earth like a superhero or not; either the Koran is the infallible word of God or it isn’t. Every religion makes explicit claims about the way the world is, and the sheer profusion of these incompatible claims creates an enduring basis for conflict.
* There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us-them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If a person really believes that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. It may even be reasonable to kill them. If a person thinks there is something that another person can say to his children that could put their souls in jeopardy for all eternity, then the heretic next door is actually far more dangerous than the child molester. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism or politics.
* Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas.
Why is religion such a potent source of human violence?
* Our religions are intrinsically incompatible with one another. Either Jesus rose from the dead and will be returning to Earth like a superhero or not; either the Koran is the infallible word of God or it isn’t. Every religion makes explicit claims about the way the world is, and the sheer profusion of these incompatible claims creates an enduring basis for conflict.
* There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us-them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If a person really believes that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. It may even be reasonable to kill them. If a person thinks there is something that another person can say to his children that could put their souls in jeopardy for all eternity, then the heretic next door is actually far more dangerous than the child molester. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism or politics.
* Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas.
At least tnt admits her friend is imaginary. It's a start.
There is hope yet.
DF
There is hope yet.
DF
By reading your post, I assume that you have either a very scientific mind or that you have had such disappointment in your life that you feel you must scream from the rooftops "I do not believe that which you believe."
It is ok not to believe, because you must look within yourself there find your calling. It may be that in this life you are meant to suffer and denounce religion so that in your next you will know every possible way to entice those around you to come to God.
Everyone has a purpose, you and those around you that have disappointed you in some way, to push you away from God, they also possessed free will. Do not blame God for your suffering, look within for your true answers.
The same Light that you see, the earth, planets, universe and your very soul are connected and alive. You have power which you have yet to take hold of. Your mind, I can tell that you have taken it and had deep thoughts about the existence of everything. Therefore, I will only suggest a book for you to read that will further feed your quest for knowledge.
Book Suggestions:
The Book of Secrets - by Depak Copra
Anything to do with enlightenment.
It is ok not to believe, because you must look within yourself there find your calling. It may be that in this life you are meant to suffer and denounce religion so that in your next you will know every possible way to entice those around you to come to God.
Everyone has a purpose, you and those around you that have disappointed you in some way, to push you away from God, they also possessed free will. Do not blame God for your suffering, look within for your true answers.
The same Light that you see, the earth, planets, universe and your very soul are connected and alive. You have power which you have yet to take hold of. Your mind, I can tell that you have taken it and had deep thoughts about the existence of everything. Therefore, I will only suggest a book for you to read that will further feed your quest for knowledge.
Book Suggestions:
The Book of Secrets - by Depak Copra
Anything to do with enlightenment.
miami (i assume),
i await your reply to THAT with bated breath....
i await your reply to THAT with bated breath....
quote:Originally posted by DeepFat:
At least tnt admits her friend is imaginary. It's a start.
There is hope yet.
DF
Deep you devil you .
Now you know dang well that I believe in God ,and I pray to him every night ,I also ask him to work on you and GoFish .
He is only imaginary to yall ....We will ALL
see him one day for sure ,,give me a call after you speak to him and let me know where to send you some ice water .
quote:you and those around you that have disappointed you in some way, to push you away from God, they also possessed free will.
This kind of respond endlessly interests me. Why in the world would you assume that atheists have been "disappointed" in some way or were "pushed" to disbelief or that atheism is always associated with negative thought?
Yes, I am sure that some atheists are atheists out of anger or rebellion or psychological trauma - just as believers. I have never met one but I'm sure they exist (I would wager that almost all believers 'believe' under duress). You should understand that most of us are atheists for the same reason you no longer believe in Santa Clause, tooth fairies and leprechauns. We have examined the evidence and found is lacking. For that reason, we reject your dogma.
An eloquent quote from a great thinker is as follows: "I contend that we are both atheists. i just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
quote:Originally posted by cyfilmstudent:
By reading your post, I assume that you have either a very scientific mind or that you have had such disappointment in your life that you feel you must scream from the rooftops "I do not believe that which you believe."
It is ok not to believe, because you must look within yourself there find your calling. It may be that in this life you are meant to suffer and denounce religion so that in your next you will know every possible way to entice those around you to come to God.
Everyone has a purpose, you and those around you that have disappointed you in some way, to push you away from God, they also possessed free will. Do not blame God for your suffering, look within for your true answers.
The same Light that you see, the earth, planets, universe and your very soul are connected and alive. You have power which you have yet to take hold of. Your mind, I can tell that you have taken it and had deep thoughts about the existence of everything. Therefore, I will only suggest a book for you to read that will further feed your quest for knowledge.
Book Suggestions:
The Book of Secrets - by Depak Copra
Anything to do with enlightenment.
Hi cyfilm, I could really expand here, but I'm working and pressed for time.
Yes, I am a math and science guy.
I am very familiar with the mystery and magic of "Deepak Chopra" (and no I'm not the spelling police). Since you made the book reference I take it you are familiar with his work as well. So you know his claims of being part of psychic studies and being contacted by, and communicating with the other side or spirit world (his father), etc.
I have enjoyed some of his work, and I'm OK, to a point, with some forms of self transcendence and/or self actualization. (some form of yoga/exercise, relaxation/meditation and breathing exercises)
Now, let me introduce Dr Michael Sheremer. You'll need a few minutes and a couple of references for a primer.
See him here to get an overview of his work.
Here he discusses why people believe strange things.
Now let's drill down and get specific:
The Great Debate: Deepak Chopra v. Michael Shermer
And the second debate:
The Great Afterlife Debate: Michael Shermer v. Deepak Chopra
If, after viewing and reading this, you would like to have a conversation(or questions)relating to each other's beliefs. Please let me know.
Regards, miamizsun
miamiz,
I'll give Dr. Shermer your regards next time I run into him at the supermarket.
DF
I'll give Dr. Shermer your regards next time I run into him at the supermarket.
DF