Hi to my Forum Friends,

Our atheist Friend, Deep, feels he has the perfect plan to, once and for all time, put God, Christians, and Creationism in their proper places.   So, like his role models, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, Deep asks, "Will someone simply present the Theory of Creationism?    As a proper theory, it must explain evidence and have predictive ability.  It need not depend on further indemonstrable concepts.   Anyone?"

I noticed his little game yesterday, but, seeing it for what it is -- chose to ignore it.   However, last night, watching a show on television, a couple -- a young lady and her new friend, a blind man -- were sitting in the park and she, overwhelmed by the beauty of nature all around her, exclaims, "Isn't the sky the most beautiful blue ever?'

The man smiles and tells her, "I have no idea what blue is supposed to look like -- I have been blind all my life."   Of course, the young lady realizes her faux pas and apologized.  But, this scene made me think of our atheist Friend, Deep, and his supposedly perfect ploy to prove God, Christianity, and Creationism -- to be false.

This scene made me think of Deep's little game -- and the spiritual condition of all non-believers.  Non-believers, whether they be atheists, agnostics, plain old vanilla-flavored non-believers, world religion adherents, cult followers, etc. -- all have one one thing in common.  They are all spiritually blind.  They do not have spiritual discernment.  This is not a social disease in today's relativistic society.  However, it is an eternally dangerous spiritual condition.

So clearly I recall how spiritually blind I was before I became a believer.   For many years, I traveled a lot on business.  I spent so many nights in hotel rooms that I became comfortable in them.   They almost became like a second home to me.  But, they were also very lonely, being away from family and loved ones for extended periods.  Yes, I often became depressed -- and, seeking an answer, I frequently turned to the Gideon Bible found in all hotel rooms.

I would open the Bible, begin to read it -- and get through only a few verses before getting confused, tossing it back into the table drawer, and turning on the television -- the non-spiritual world's tranquilizer, i.e., brain anesthetic.

Why did this happen to me?  Because I was spiritually blind and did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help me understand God's Word.  After many years of this, one Saturday evening, at a party, I met a wonderful man who exuded love, God's love.  This was not a Bible study; only a social event -- yet, I could sense something different about this man.  His name is Pastor Sam -- and the next day, Sunday, Dory and I went to the church where he was pastor.  At that church, the Christian love was overflowing -- from God,  though Pastor Sam, permeating the whole congregation -- and, I felt like it was all aimed toward me.

The next Friday evening, Dory and I went to their Bible study -- and I felt this same Godly love from all the people.  This love kept me coming back to their worship services and to their Bible studies.  Six months later, I asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and Savior.  I became a Christian believer and was immediately indwelled by the Holy Spirit -- who will never leave me.  He will always be there to teach me, to guide me, to convict me when I make a mistake, and to forgive me when I recognize and acknowledge my  failure.   

This is one of the benefits of being a Christian believer.  However, the greatest benefit is that I know that I will spend eternity in the presence of God -- and not be cast, eternally, out of His presence into the darker regions of hell.

An obvious question might be, "Bill, did you suddenly get spiritual discernment?  Were you suddenly not spiritually blind when you began to attend that church and their Bible studies?"

And, the answer is -- NO.  No, I did not immediately acquire spiritual eyes, spiritual discernment -- the moment I picked up a Bible with them.   What did happen is that I began to listen to their teachings, to listen in their Bible studies and Sunday School classes, and slowly a lot of it began to make sense. 

 

Also, it helped that Pastor Sam gave both Dory and me good Study Bibles, the Harper's  NASB Study Bible published by Zondervan.  Unfortunately, that one is no longer in print -- but, Zondervan does have a good NKJV Study Bible.

Having a good Study Bible, with well written study notes -- and taking that Bible to worship service and Bible study every week, while also studying it privately -- is the first step toward gaining spiritual knowledge.  And, as I said, after six months, I knew enough about God, Jesus Christ, and His Written Word, the Bible -- to know that I wanted to become a full fledged Christian believer, I wanted to ask Him to come into my heart and be my personal Lord and Savior.  And, that is when I was indwelled by the Holy Spirit; that is when I became spiritually alive -- no longer spiritually blind.

Yet, at this time, I was still a spiritual infant, a "babe in Christ" -- just beginning to be able to stand on my spiritual legs -- but, still very wobbly.  Definitely not strong enough to be called mature in the Word.  Becoming mature in God's Word is an ongoing process which never ends -- and, I have only been at it for twenty-four years.

However, I know that, because He is my personal Lord and Savior -- I will have eternity to be learning.  And, the most exciting thing I can look forward to -- is that, after this brief mortal life -- He will be my teacher for an eternity of learning.  Imagine that!  The most perfect Spiritual Professor in the universe, Jesus Christ -- and, He will be teaching me, and all believers, for eternity.

So, Deep, and all of our other non-believing Friends -- feel free to concoct all the "perfect" schemes your mortal minds can conceive to prove God, Christianity, and Creationism are false.  I imagine God is smiling -- just as we do when we see our young toddlers attempting to walk, or our young children trying to ride their bicycle with training wheels for the first time.  Yes, this brings a smile to our faces -- and, I am sure that God is smiling at all the infantile schemes in the secular world to prove Him out of existence.

Let me conclude by assuring ALL of my Forum Friends that God is here to stay!  He was here in eternity past -- and He will be here in eternity future.     

The big question, the most important question, is -- "Will YOU be with Him for that eternity?"  Or will you be cast away from His presence -- because YOU chose to deny Him?   My non-believing Friends, think long and hard on that -- for eternity is a very long  time.   

And, the moment you leave this mortal body, the moment you breathe that last breath -- your next breath will be in eternity.  If you have chosen wrong -- there will be NO SECOND CHANCE.  So, my Friends, choose wisely -- as though your eternal life depends upon it.  For it does.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

1 - John_11-25

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The youngest among us "get it."  It takes years of indoctrination to make them give up critical thinking and simply accept what grown-ups spew at them from the pulpit:

 

How My Six Year Old Boy Debunked Intelligent Design

I was attempting to explain to my son, Brance, who just turned six two weeks ago, why it was better to refrain from saying “Oh God!” especially around his grandparents. He didn’t understand why it was such a big deal to them and asked if “God” was a bad word.

This caught me off guard a bit. I had no reason to think that he should have known what or who God was. I half suspected that either the Mormon or Catholic set of grandparents had tried to explain it to him already. By the time I was his age I could tell you who God was and recite most of the common Bible stories chronologically. That’s what threw me off; he was never going to have to struggle with his faith and go through the anguish and torment that I did.

I had been spending so much time teaching him about evolution by natural selection that I forgot to tell him the lie he would be confronted with someday. Just a few weeks ago I had asked him what evolution was. He responded by saying, “It’s a gradual change in species that happens slowly over really long periods of time.” I couldn’t hope for a better answer from him. Talk about a proud poppa moment; almost made me cry.

I decided that it was time that he heard the creation story that I grew up with. I hopped on the internet and googled “childrens creation story.” In .2 seconds I was greeted with 2,230,000 results to choose from. I chose the top one from dltk-Bible.com. As soon as I got to “Let there be light,” he started giggling. By the time I got to the morning of the third day he was laughing quite a bit.

I read on, “So, he put all the water in one place and all the dry land in another.” He stopped laughing instantly so I asked him, “What?”

“Why do we have to save water then? Wouldn’t God make enough for everybody?” he asked. I smiled and nodded just a bit before reading on.

After I finished reading about the third day he was beginning to catch on. “So God made everything?” he asked.

“Well that’s what some people believe,” I stated, “but I don’t think so.” This sent him into hysterics.

“He made South America!” I wasn’t sure why this was so funny to him but he continued to laugh and list the things that God had “made.” Squirrels, Dr. Seuss, and cat butts had him laughing especially hard. “Doesn’t he have any brains? Cause he made some weird stuff in this world.” A six year old debunks Intelligent Design with a simple observational idea that ID proponents can’t even grasp. That had me chuckling for a moment before I read on.

When I told him about the creation of the sun on the fourth day he became serious again. He wrinkled up one eye and stated matter-of-factly, “Light has to be from the sun.” And I thought I was the only one in the room that would have a problem with light being created three days before the sun. My six year old was quickly demonstrating that he was a better critical thinker than people who believe the creation story.

“Then he made the stars to add a bit of sparkle to the night,” I read. Again the skeptical look so I waited for his comment.

“The sun is a star.” He seemed to be getting annoyed with the story now. He remained quiet as I finished through the fifth day. “Why did he make sharks?” He seemed repulsed by this idea. “And why did he even make the fish if the sharks are just going to eat them?” I laughed aloud but decided not to give him my opinion as he clearly was about to spout off another question. “How did they turn into octopuses?” - Brilliant. He had caught the fact that the bible considers everything in the ocean to be a fish and says nothing about the other phyla or classes. “Platypus, too?” He laughed hysterically when I nodded confirmation.

At this point he said, as he was running up the stairs and laughing through his words, that he had to get his animal books to see what other absurd creations God made. We read about some animals for a while before recapping and completing the Genesis story. When it was finally over he asked, “So he’s like a big daddy and we’re his children?” I mused at this observation for a moment before replying.

“A lot of people think that,” I said.

“So where’s our momma?”

“There is no momma in this story.”

“So we came out of his stomach?” I laughed again and shook my head. I could see that I was going to have to tell him the story of Adam and Eve.

After telling him that God breathed life into Adam I could see the skeptical look appear on his little face again so I waited. He clearly didn’t believe that Adam was made from molded clay but asked if he breathed life into all animals.

“No, Buddy, just Adam.”

“Not even us?”

“No,” I said.

“That’s stupid; only Adam. Why not us too? He hates us doesn’t he?” I just laughed at this query as I really didn’t feel like telling the snake and apple part of the story at this point. I continued on with the rib story. He winced and a pained look came over his face as he asked, “Ooh! Did he die?”

I chuckled once more and decided to end this conversation but he went into another rant on all the other things that God created. When he said, “And Uncle Dray, too, and the bad guys that shoot at him,” he stopped and shook his head. “Why would he create bad guy shooters?” He saw the absurdity of God allowing this. I didn’t answer (I don’t know, of course) but asked another question instead:

“So do you think this could have happened?”

“Yeah, I believe it now; I believe him,” he said, sort of reluctantly.

“Why?” I asked.

“Cause he’s such an idiot that he had to be the one that made all this killing and stuff.” I’ve never heard that one before! He decided he’d had enough of this conversation and wanted to go watch a movie upstairs. As he walked away he said, “That was a funny story though; made me laugh about four thousand times!”

Just a few moments later he returned from the stairwell and asked, “Wait; Is God invisible?” Again I chuckled and nodded. “That’s dumb. Why wouldn’t he show himself to us?” I shrugged my shoulders.

Why wouldn’t he, indeed?

We talked about the story of our beginnings that science has helped us put together for a while but he quickly became bored with this topic. Invisible sky daddies are more entertaining. He did laugh at the idea of the universe being so small at one point. I think he’s skeptical of that but he had some interesting questions about gasses and energy and what the earth was made of and how it got “painted.” After answering his questions he volunteered the following observation:

“I think the scientists are correct and the other guy sounds crazy. I think I want to be a scientist when I grow up and study water, animals, and space.” What an amusing array of choices. I had to inquire about them. “I want to find out where the water came from, for real, and dig up animal bones and put them together.”

“What about space?”

“I want to go there…”

What I find interesting in the story Unob, is for all the bashing of religious folks, no one 'forced' their ideas onto this six year old except his atheist father. Not the Mormon grandparents and not the Catholic grandparents.

 

But the father made sure that the boy understood that God was 'an idiot'. So a six year old can understand the complexities of genetics and mutations and evolution, but God is an idiot.

 

Right.

Originally Posted by b50m:

What I find interesting in the story Unob, is for all the bashing of religious folks, no one 'forced' their ideas onto this six year old except his atheist father.

 

---

 

What in the world gave you that idea?  The writer seemed to be very careful about being neutral and simply willing to let the child talk freely.

HE had the same approach as I did with my kids and, I suspect, as you had with your kids who evidently have wildly distinct belief systems.

--

 

But the father made sure that the boy understood that God was 'an idiot'.

--

You often amaze me with the leaps of logic.  What in the world gave you that idea?

Oh, I don't know, maybe the way daddy told the story completely 'unbiased' and made sure to laugh at the whole thing. And you find me a six year old who understands the nomenclature of the animal kingdom, and I'll buy him a new car.



"I forgot to tell him the lie he would be confronted with"

” I laughed aloud but decided not to give him my opinion as he clearly was about to spout off another question"

"Brilliant. He had caught the fact that the bible considers everything in the ocean to be a fish and says nothing about the other phyla or classes. “Platypus, too?"

“So we came out of his stomach?” I laughed again and shook my head. I could see that I was going to have to tell him the story of Adam and Eve."

"I chuckled once more "

"Again I chuckled and nodded."

I'm not an atheist, but it is obvious from scientific study that the fundamentalist belief in a young universe and denial of evolution are simply wrong.  The Catholics resolved the question of science vs Bible centuries ago, and mainstream Christianity embraces it. 

 

The cult of fundamentalism requires the Bible to be literal and inerrant or their distorted philosophy falls apart, much like Scientology requires a belief in alien domination.  The formula is simple, Bill Gray = Jim Jones and his ilk.  Beware of the Koolaid.

PS:

Basically daddy said "Son, there is this stupid fairy tale you will here about that ignorant people like your grandparents believe in, but it's OK, we can accept that they are idiots."

 

A completely accurate portrayal of religion from an atheist.

 

Originally Posted by b50m:

Oh, I don't know, maybe the way daddy told the story completely 'unbiased' and made sure to laugh at the whole thing. And you find me a six year old who understands the nomenclature of the animal kingdom, and I'll buy him a new car.
----


OK, you win. 

So the dad is telling a fairy tale and the child is laughing at the silliness of it. Is there something "wrong" with that, B5?  Yes, even kids are capable of detecting BS.  Much better than adults.  To get a kid to accept the preposterous as "true" takes much more effort than simply letting them think their way through it and coming to their own conclusions.

Who the heck in their right mind would defend this Creation story in these modern times?

.... Oh, never mind:  B50 and Magpie and Bill.  Enjoy the company.

OK, so the atheist's child can't grasp it but christian parents of a six year old can swear their children love and worship the lord, many claiming their three year old can "preach a sermon" as well as any adult, and beaming at them when they recite their little verses and swearing they understand what they're saying.  Got it.

LOL, don't put me in with magpie/idiot or Bill.

 

I'm not a Christian, remember.

 

FWIW, I told my kids about God and that I believed he was real. I also told them about other beliefs as well.  No lying as this daddy did and no ridicule.

 

As stated I have one who is Druid and one Agnostic.

 

They decided on their own, not because of  me laughing at the religions.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
 

Who the heck in their right mind would defend this Creation story in these modern times?
.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
modern times???   uno, what does modern times have to do with it???

 

It has nothing to do with the Eternal Father.

.

Originally Posted by b50m:
 

LOL, don't put me in with magpie/idiot or Bill.

----

 

You are defending the creation story with the same zeal they have, B5.  Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas.

The child was being critical of a stupid story that many hold to be true.  Being critical of stupid things is a good thing to foster in a child.  You disagree, so be it.

b,

From my reading of it, the father was responding in kind to the son's level comprehension, his son's level of incredulity and at what the son in particular found amusing about that creation story. I didn't read imposition unless one confuses his narrative to the reader with what he did/didn't say to his son.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by b50m:
 

LOL, don't put me in with magpie/idiot or Bill.

----

 

You are defending the creation story with the same zeal they have, B5.  Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas.

The child was being critical of a stupid story that many hold to be true.  Being critical of stupid things is a good thing to foster in a child.  You disagree, so be it.

The child was being offered the Bible as a fictional story by a parent laughing about it. The parent gave the impression it was 'stupid'. Had the parent not presented it that way, the child could at least have thought about it. No, UNOB, it was presented in a very biased way by the parent to a 6 year old who could easily tell what the parent thought of it. Saying the child made an intelligent decision ON HIS OWN to scoff at relgion is not valid.

 

If saying I believed God created the universe is 'zeal', so be it. Of course, that puts you in the same category as Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the real Illuminati group that wanted to abolish religion.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

b,

From my reading of it, the father was responding in kind to the son's level comprehension, his son's level of incredulity and at what the son in particular found amusing about that creation story. I didn't read imposition unless one confuses his narrative to the reader with what he did/didn't say to his son.

AR,

With the father laughing and starting his story line with "tell him about the lie", do you really think this young child did not pick up on his father's amusement with the idea? You know as well as I do that how he presented it made more of an impression than what he did or didn't say.

 

I'm not saying an atheist cannot tell his child he thinks it's a lie, but to have me believe that a six year old decided all by himself that it was ridiculous and God must be 'an idiot' for making wars doesn't hold up. And if he laughed at the idea of the world being small, then what did dear old dad use to explain the Big Bang? First there was nothing and it exploded?

 

Everyone has the right to tell their children whatever they want to. Just don't be surprised if that is what they accept.

Originally Posted by b50m:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

b,

From my reading of it, the father was responding in kind to the son's level of comprehension, his son's level of incredulity and at what the son in particular found amusing about that creation story. I didn't read imposition unless one confuses his narrative to the reader with what he did/didn't say to his son.

AR,

With the father laughing and starting his story line with "tell him about the lie", do you really think this young child did not pick up on his father's amusement with the idea? You know as well as I do that how he presented it made more of an impression than what he did or didn't say.

 

I'm not saying an atheist cannot tell his child he thinks it's a lie, but to have me believe that a six year old decided all by himself that it was ridiculous and God must be 'an idiot' for making wars doesn't hold up. And if he laughed at the idea of the world being small, then what did dear old dad use to explain the Big Bang? First there was nothing and it exploded?

 

Everyone has the right to tell their children whatever they want to. Just don't be surprised if that is what they accept.

b,

Please read it again. The "tell him the lie" was part of the narrative to the reader, not how he started the story that he read to his son.

I realize that is not what he said to his son, or he might have, he didn't really say how he started the discussion. Just that his son using the phrase 'Oh God' might upset his grandparents. Odd that if he is atheist, why is 'Oh God' used in his household?

 

As I stated, a parent can tell their own child anything they want to.

Originally Posted by b50m:

I realize that is not what he said to his son, or he might have, he didn't really say how he started the discussion. Just that his son using the phrase 'Oh God' might upset his grandparents. Odd that if he is atheist, why is 'Oh God' used in his household?

I use "Good Lord!", "Oh Jesus!" "Oh God", etc. all the time. It's part of the English cultural vernacular. I don't limit myself from any language regardless of source. It certainly doesn't make me any less atheistic.

Do you yell Oh Santa Claus? Good Easter Bunny? Sweet Leprechaun? 

 

 

 

If you had grown up hearing those phrases you would yell them.  Is there a god called "fiddlesticks" or "sugar"?  Both words used instead of curse words. For the "love of mike" was another phrase. Who is mike? Oh and "jeese louise".

I wonder if they are used in an atheist household that has atheist parents and kids. Or does society corrupt the pure environment with evil religious sayings? 

 

You realize that to invoke those sayings is really asking for the help of that being, right?

 

Dear God, help me.

 

Jesus, come to me.

 

Good Lord, what has happened?

Once again they're only used if you grow up hearing them used. It's kinda hard not to hear them since everybody and his brother, movies and every program on tv use the phrases. So to me they have about as much meaning as saying "sugarfoot" or "fiddlesticks".  Let's not forget "for crying out loud".

Originally Posted by b50m:

I wonder if they are used in an atheist household that has atheist parents and kids. Or does society corrupt the pure environment with evil religious sayings? 

 

You realize that to invoke those sayings is really asking for the help of that being, right?

 

Dear God, help me.

 

Jesus, come to me.

 

Good Lord, what has happened?

Well, I realize that they're also secular figures of speech which usually describe exasperation and the like. It's not "really" asking anything from something that's not real. Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Betelgeuse!

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