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If you choose to accept the comparison on faith, that's your choice. If you are a skeptic and want to know the truth, then it's easy to find that the comparison is pretty silly

 

 

I think all the myths, including your jesus myth, are silly. And I know that christianity has stolen from other religions and made things that those religions believed "their own". Then they set out to deny they ever belonged to anyone else. What is silly is for you to deny that.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

If you choose to accept the comparison on faith, that's your choice. If you are a skeptic and want to know the truth, then it's easy to find that the comparison is pretty silly

 

 

I think all the myths, including your jesus myth, are silly. And I know that christianity has stolen from other religions and made things that those religions believed "their own". Then they set out to deny they ever belonged to anyone else. What is silly is for you to deny that.

I deny it because I rely on the historical evidence that proves that theory wrong.

 

So let's put it to the test.

 

Show me a source that proves the Horus mythology includes him being crucified.

 

If you can, I'll have to admit my mistake and look into the comparison further.

 

If you unable, it proves the theory is flawed and unreliable.

 

If you're unwilling to look for evidence, then I guess you'll have to ask yourself why you choose to believe it.

Show me a source that proves the Horus mythology includes him being crucified.   

 

I don't have any interest in showing you anything. What I claimed and posted remains the same. ALL the myths are silly. Some are interesting, but it's still silly to believe them. Christianity steals from other religions and makes those things it's own. How about YOU show proof that jesus ever existed and was crucified. I don't have a belief in a myth to defend.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Show me a source that proves the Horus mythology includes him being crucified.   

 

I don't have any interest in showing you anything. What I claimed and posted remains the same. ALL the myths are silly. Some are interesting, but it's still silly to believe them. Christianity steals from other religions and makes those things it's own. How about YOU show proof that jesus ever existed and was crucified. I don't have a belief in a myth to defend.

 

So why do you believe Christianity stole from other religions?

 

Here is the proof you asked for. Plenty more out there if you choose to look.

 

http://www.westmont.edu/~fisk/...EarlyChristians.html

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

That's your proof?  That's no more proof than any other myth, legend, or fairy tale has to offer.

Tacitus was a Roman historian. He didn't write about myths, he wrote about actual events. Pliny the Younger was a Roman governor. He was not writing about myths, but asking for advise on how to handle Christians and their spreading beliefs.

 

You asked for proof that Jesus existed and was crucified. Tacitus was not a Christian, he was a Roman who didn't care for Christianity. He called Christianity an "evil".

 

What is significant is that s an ancient historian, he acknowledges that Christ existed and was executed by Pontius Pilate. He's not recounting a myth, but rather explaining the origin of a new "superstition" and giving accounts of Nero executing believers.

 

You asked for proof, there it is.

 

So back to the original question.

 

Why do you believe that Christianity stole from other religions?

 

AFA SAYS YOU CAN'T STEAL EASTER HOLIDAY WE STOLE FROM PAGANISM!

 

 

Holy smokes! You can’t be serious! First we have Christians claiming that people are making war on Christmas, stealing or destroying a Christian holiday. But of course, Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday stolen by Christians from Paganism.

Now it’s Easter’s turn. Randy Sharp, special projects director for the American Family Association (AFA) says,

“We’ve been doing this with Christmas for years and we’re winning that battle, and now it seems like the liberals are taking the battle to Easter and trying to take away any vestige of Christ or the meaning of Easter from all celebrations in the public forum.”

Munson Township, Ohio, announced it was having a “Spring Egg Hunt” for kids. The audacity! You can’t have a public event without Jesus! How dare you!

I mean, nothing says Jesus like painted eggs. What’s your problem? Haven’t you read the New Testament? You remember when Jesus hid the painted eggs and made the disciples find them…um…er…never mind.

The AFA, expert haters and hypocrites one and all, has decried the event, calling it an effort to “strip ‘Easter’ from community events.”

Of course, like Christmas, Easter is a Pagan holiday. It’s even named after a Pagan goddess: Eostre, a West German goddess who originally applied her name to the entire month of April (Eostur-monath). Eostre, also known as Ostara, is a fertility goddess, no less. And we all known how much groups like the AFA hate talk of fertility.

It brings to mind people frolicking and doing things only megachurch pastors and conservative politicians should do, and only then with people other than their wives.

So here we have another irony, fundamentalist Christians whining that a holiday they stole is now being stolen from them when in actuality, by taking Jesus out of the picture, the townsfolk are actually getting closer to the holiday’s true roots.

The AFA says,

“While `egg hunts’ aren’t exactly biblical, they do provide opportunities for Christians to share the good news of Jesus’ birth with members of the community by celebrating it in public.”

As I said above, it also gives them a chance to get back to the roots of the holiday and celebrate spring and fertility.

Or to hunt for Easter eggs – without Jesus. After all, Eostre is being left home too, and Eostre has a much firmer claim on the holiday.

Eostre’s fate is the result of the application the old Christian tactic of normative inversion; the transference of cultic acts (ritual) from one religion to another. For example, in the year 500 give or take, the bishop of Javols, incensed that Pagans continued to show loyalty to their gods by offering sacrifices at a lake, built a church full of relics of St. Hilary in order for the Saint to be their “intercessor for the mercy of the lord”, forcing the Pagans to bring their valuables to the church rather than deposit them in the lake. A century later, Pope Gregory formalized the practice in his famous letter to the English mission, offering as an example turning a sacrifice to the gods into a feast held in honor of the Christian god. Where Eostre was concerned, Christianity simply replaced the Pagan celebration (and its goddess) with a Christian holiday and Jesus.

Meanwhile, the AFA has declared war on the unfortunate township and on all those who like eggs without religion. They have issued an “Action Alert” in order to bully the town into submitting to the lord. And it look as though the town will submit to the unholy wrath of outraged and unbridled hypocrisy.

As Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) reports, it’s not all bad. The AFA has managed to draw renewed attention to an old Pagan holiday and goddess, long forgotten by most. And it’s managed to draw attention to the absurdity of associating highly fertile bunny rabbits and procreation with Jesus, not to mention the aforementioned painted eggs.

As Rob Boston, writing for AU concludes, “Somehow, I don’t think this is what the group had in mind. But perhaps, from her perch in the pantheon surrounded by her fellow gods and goddesses, Eoestre smiles with approval.”

I couldn’t agree more. Let’s face it: the only religion with a right to complain here about the theft of a holiday (and of a deity) is Paganism. A thief has no right to complain when something they have stolen is stolen by somebody else. So let’s give Eostre her due, even if in passing. It’s her time of year, after all: spring and renewed life after the dark of winter. Procreation – and über-fertile little bunny rabbits – are in the air, as they should be.

Let the procreation begin!

 

http://aheathensday.com/2011/0...e-from-paganism.html

How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

III.The Origins of Christmas Customs

A. The Origin of Christmas Tree
Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church.

B. The Origin of Mistletoe
Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow by his rival god Hoder while fighting for the female Nanna. Druid rituals use mistletoe to poison their human sacrificial victim.[8] The Christian custom of “kissing under the mistletoe” is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult.[9]

C. The Origin of Christmas Presents
In pre-Christian Rome, the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring offerings and gifts during the Saturnalia (in December) and Kalends (in January). Later, this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among the general populace. The Catholic Church gave this custom a Christian flavor by re-rooting it in the supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas (see below).[10]

 

http://www.simpletoremember.co...mas_TheRealStory.htm

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Where's the lie buff? Are you denying what I posted?  BTW, you keep repeating that lie about Scott. Is your nose very sore buff? Or is it calloused from all the typing?

CD'.s of the debate are available now best. PM your address and i will mail you one free of charge

Pfttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt Yeah, that'll happen.

I don't think you're understanding the question.

 

I am not asking for historical evidence that a myth existed. There are lots of evidence.

 

You asked for historical evidence that Jesus existed and was crucified. I provided that.

 

When you have historical accounts confirming the existence of someone, then they are not considered a myth. There is lots of evidence that shows Jesus did exist and He was executed under Roman authority.

 

So to believe that Jesus never existed and is simply recycled mythology means you would have to disregard all the evidence that proves otherwise and disagree with most modern historians.

 

Which brings me to the original question.

 

Why would you want to believe that?

 

Yes I wanted proof. There is none. The answers just run to having to have faith, like you see on this forum all the time. (see below)  

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Is there any actual proof that Jesus was a real human being?

 

well faith is how Christianity works,the whole point is that you believe by faith,not scientifically proven,God is beyond science,in fact he CREATED science in the first place,He gave humans a desire to question everything and want to learn.If you need proof then you don't have faith (in fact someone asked this EXACT question in Bible class just the othor day!) In fact i think it may have been God's will for her to ask that question just so that i would know what to say here! that is PROOF RIGHT THERE IN IT SELF!!

 

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JESUS isn't PROOF enough to YOU? - How can ANYONE give you PROOF if JESUS himself is not PROOF enough to YOU?

Matthew 12:34-36 (New International Version) JESUS SPEAKING
34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Yes I wanted proof. There is none. The answers just run to having to have faith, like you see on this forum all the time. (see below)  

----------------------------------------------

Is there any actual proof that Jesus was a real human being?

 

well faith is how Christianity works,the whole point is that you believe by faith,not scientifically proven,God is beyond science,in fact he CREATED science in the first place,He gave humans a desire to question everything and want to learn.If you need proof then you don't have faith (in fact someone asked this EXACT question in Bible class just the othor day!) In fact i think it may have been God's will for her to ask that question just so that i would know what to say here! that is PROOF RIGHT THERE IN IT SELF!!

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

JESUS isn't PROOF enough to YOU? - How can ANYONE give you PROOF if JESUS himself is not PROOF enough to YOU?

Matthew 12:34-36 (New International Version) JESUS SPEAKING
34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

________________________________________________

 

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus did in fact exist as a real person. Most historians, even if they do not believe His claims, will agree that He did in fact exist.

 

The question about Jesus' existence has nothing to do with evidence, but rather with His teachings. We have less historical evidence that Socrates existed as a real person. All we have is the writings of two of his students. Yet, most people will accept that he was real and not fictional.

 

So if you want proof that Jesus existed, there is plenty. The claims that His story is just a re-telling of Horus is easily debunked if you choose to do the five minutes worth of research.

 

If you want to believe that Jesus never existed and is simply a recycled myth, that's your choice. However, it's a belief based on faith and not facts. That brings me back to my question, why would you believe that?

 

 

 

Originally Posted by NashBama:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Believe what?

 

If you want to believe that Jesus never existed and is simply a recycled myth, that's your choice. However, it's a belief based on faith and not facts. That brings me back to my question, why would you believe that?

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Why would I WANT to believe what? That your jesus is a myth? The same reason I believe that all the "gods" and other "supernatural beings" are myths. It has nothing to do with wanting to believe or not believe anything. I could ask you why you would want to believe myths. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by NashBama:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Believe what?

 

If you want to believe that Jesus never existed and is simply a recycled myth, that's your choice. However, it's a belief based on faith and not facts. That brings me back to my question, why would you believe that?

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Why would I WANT to believe what? That your jesus is a myth? The same reason I believe that all the "gods" and other "supernatural beings" are myths. It has nothing to do with wanting to believe or not believe anything. I could ask you why you would want to believe myths. 

 

 

I don't believe in myths.

 

I'll rephrase the questions.

 

In spite of the evidence that proves Jesus actually existed as a real person, and in spite of the claims that He is a recycled Egyptian god being thoroughly debunked, why choose to ignore all of that and still regard Him as a myth?

People have sworn up and down that animals knelt on christmas eve, some even went so far as to claim the animals could speak. Never mind the facts disputing that. Now of course they only knew people that knew people that knew people that had seen that happen, and it had happened mostly in the "olden days", but they believed it, on faith I guess. It never bothered them that they couldn't see it happen, cause after all people today aren't "worthy". Seems like no christian is ever "good enough" for their god.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

People have sworn up and down that animals knelt on christmas eve, some even went so far as to claim the animals could speak. Never mind the facts disputing that. Now of course they only knew people that knew people that knew people that had seen that happen, and it had happened mostly in the "olden days", but they believed it, on faith I guess. It never bothered them that they couldn't see it happen, cause after all people today aren't "worthy". Seems like no christian is ever "good enough" for their god.

--------

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

In spite of the evidence that proves Jesus actually existed as a real person, and in spite of the claims that He is a recycled Egyptian god being thoroughly debunked, why choose to ignore all of that and still regard Him as a myth?

 

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Because there is no actual proof he existed. And no, it hasn't been "debunked". All it has been is denied. If you say there are differences fine, people change the meaning of passages and stories in your bible all the time. They change them to suit their agenda. You believe in a god so powerful that he could create a universe. But for some odd reason he couldn't provide any way for the proof that he did it to be recorded in some way that would last a few thousand years. Come on, if he could create a universe and humans (only two btw) to populate the earth he surely could have figured out a way for all that to be recorded so there would never be any doubt he did it. Nash, come on.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

In spite of the evidence that proves Jesus actually existed as a real person, and in spite of the claims that He is a recycled Egyptian god being thoroughly debunked, why choose to ignore all of that and still regard Him as a myth?

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Because there is no actual proof he existed. And no, it hasn't been "debunked". All it has been is denied. If you say there are differences fine, people change the meaning of passages and stories in your bible all the time. They change them to suit their agenda. You believe in a god so powerful that he could create a universe. But for some odd reason he couldn't provide any way for the proof that he did it to be recorded in some way that would last a few thousand years. Come on, if he could create a universe and humans (only two btw) to populate the earth he surely could have figured out a way for all that to be recorded so there would never be any doubt he did it. Nash, come on.

 

 

Okay, so let's take one piece at a time.

 

I showed you where the Roman historian Tacitus wrote about Jesus' existence and execution by Pilate.

 

You've stated that you do not consider this to be good evidence. Why?

 

Because for every "historian" or historical "record" that the events happened there are reliable historians that dispute the claims. It's simply a case of he said and then he said something different. So it comes down to what I said, something as powerful as your god would have made sure there was proof that could not be denied, there wouldn't be all the different myths, there would be no way to doubt and no need to believe only "on faith".  BTW, where did tacitus get his information?

Last edited by Bestworking

Debate among historians doesn't discredit the event or those involved. There is quite a bit of debate among historians when it comes to the Civil War. From the cause to the events of each battle. The debates doesn't mean the Civil War didn't happen.

 

Much of our knowledge of ancient Rome comes from the works of Tacitus. The Great Fire of Rome, the different leaders including Nero and Augustus, and other events come from his writings. There is no way of knowing exactly where he got all of his information, most likely from documents that have been long lost and oral tradition.

 

So with that being said, you asked for proof that Jesus existed and was executed. I provided a source that historians accept as fact written by a non-Christian around 116 A.D. Yet, you still claim this isn't proof. This brings me back to my original question.

 

Why isn't it?

It's like anything else, you listen to/or study both sides and go with the one that made the better "argument" using the facts and consider what they have to gain or lose, or you walk away still not knowing what to believe. I have nothing to gain by saying I don't believe the myth, I just don't believe it and in my opinion the "claims" against it make more sense. You will claim there are all sorts of things to gain by "believing". I don't see it.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It's like anything else, you listen to/or study both sides and go with the one that made the better "argument" using the facts and consider what they have to gain or lose, or you walk away still not knowing what to believe. I have nothing to gain by saying I don't believe the myth, I just don't believe it and in my opinion the "claims" against it make more sense. You will claim there are all sorts of things to gain by "believing". I don't see it.

____________

 

I agree with you that it's important to listen to both sides and decide with the evidence given. That's what I do as well.

 

I also have nothing to gain by debunking the comparison myth. I just love history and think it's wrong to pass urban legends off as fact when they're not.

 

However, you've dismissed all the facts that disproves a claim in favor of a theory that has been shown to be flawed.

 

So to say that Jesus never existed and to believe the Horus comparison is to disregard a lot of facts and evidence.

 

So why disregard all of that before considering it?

 

So to say that Jesus never existed and to believe the Horus comparison is to disregard a lot of facts and evidence.

 

So why disregard all of that before considering it?

 

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Horus myth/jesus myth-both myths. No reason to believe either one, but I can see how one led to the other.

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