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Hello. This is my first post. Someone with whom I have a correspondence suggested that I visit this forum, as it is somewhat amusing, as far as religious discussions go. So, with an admittedly brief perusal of some of the posts here, I find that some of the personae represented here fulfill the expectation. From the ridiculous to the sublime, the members here make for an interesting read. One of the tenants of Philosophy is that there is very little, in a metaphysical sense, which can be actually proven by the Scientific Method. Having this tenant as the foundation of my life, I find it rather amusing that the 'fundys', as they are described here, seem to be so sure of themselves. And the naturalists among you seem to find glee in pointing out the error of their ways. In all actuality, neither side will ever meet anywhere close to the middle. Religion, in all its forms and across all cultures, is a belief system that attempts to explain the nature of a creator of all things, and humanity's place within. In it's many iterations, religion has been around since the time when primates began to understand a sense of self. When the "I" concept began to arise in the mind, the next logical step was to wonder where we go when we die. It is a scary concept, and so a supreme being was invented by humans to take us back from where we came, rather than to the darkness when we simply 'cease to exist' on this world. For those of you who attack the religious for their faith by saying that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God, bear in mind that there is an equal paucity of evidence that proves otherwise. However, in the absence of proof of a positive test to a proposition, it can be argued that without such, the notion fails the test and is therefore, until proven otherwise, false. My point is, however, that the forum members who are so certain of the lack of existence of a higher power than their own might possibly take a step back, and moderate their stance somewhat on oblivion as the only possible next step to existence in this cosmic plane.
"Truth is a target that moves in uncertain pathways." Get some help, Bill. Seriously.
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Max,

Welcome aboard.

If I might ask a favor, please use parentheses. One long, single-spaced screed is a bit much to read. I'll admit my eyes are not what they used to be.

Why must there be a middle ground? Either god exists, or he does not. It's a 0 or 1 proposition.

Should we assume he exists (we do not), there are further questions. Does he intervene in human affairs or not (0 or 1).

These questions do not lend themselves to shades of gray. A coin flip does not result in a shade of gray, it is either heads or tails. Such is the discussion of the gods. Either they exist or they don't.

Glad to hear your comments.

DF
Man's desire to continue on after death is one of the major factors that anthropologists have identified as a reason for the presumption of a supreme being. As I said before, early humans were trying to understand their place in the universe, so they created a firmament, and somebody to place it there. Were they wrong? Who can say?

There is no evidence for persistence of consciousness after death. However, before Copernicus, there was no evidence that the Earth was not indeed the center of the universe. A wise person would never definitely say there is oblivion on the other side of life. DeepFat says atheists expect it, but even he does not say with scientific certainty that there are not different planes of existence where our consciousness resides, absent of this one.

As our scientific knowledge increases over hundreds or thousands of years, if we can manage not to kill ourselves off long enough, we may indeed see past this plane an onto another, where out consciousness resides.

Here is a posit. Within the last fifteen years or so, we have learned existence of dark matter. It is what is evidently pushing our universe outward. Twenty years ago, science just couldn't say why the universe wasn't doomed to collapse in on itself. And then there was the answer.

Here's the next big question. What is the nature of dark matter? Where does it come from. How and when was it 'created'?In what dimension does it exist. If we were to hold a cup of dark matter in our hand, it would slowly ooze through our hand and move towards the strongest gravitational field, and then be repulsed.

Hence my admonition to those with certainty on both sides of the religious issue. Do not be so smug and darn-sure in your beliefs. You just might disappear in a puff of logic.
Max,

Your questions and speculations regarding Dark Matter, of which we are mostly ignorant, do not imply god. The geocentric theory of cosmology used to be proof of god.

We are lucky enough to be here when such questions are posed. What fantastic advances in science have we achieved to even be able to ask these questions?

God is not the answer to questions unanswered. He used to be, and item after item, he had to move over for better understandings.

Dark matter is not evidence of god. It's a cosmological unknown. Aren't you glad we still have questions to figure out?


DF
quote:
The Higgs boson is a fascinating scientific concept, but I fail to see any spiritual aspect to it. Why would the creation of Higgs bosons tend to support or discourage any notion of gods?

DF


DF, it was a joke! The Higgs Boson has been referred to as The God Particle! It was so named because it is claimed to be everywhere, but impossible to see. Even my wife got it!

I thought that you were one of the more clever ones around here.

Oh, I get it. You were joking with me... Right?

Maybe it was because of the hour, drink, etc.
Max, when people make claims, of gods, devils, angels, holy ghosts, etc., they should provide evidence. Good and credible evidence.

Unless of course we're going to relax our standards.

There are, as far as I know, claims of approximately 2800 gods through out history.

Did they do this in an effort to explain an afterlife? Explain natural phenomenas(earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons, eclipses, etc.)?

Yes.

Most have been relegated to the dust bin of history, and rightfully so.

Why?

Because now we know better.

Can deep thinkers through contemplation, reflection and meditation transcend or acknowledge something greater than their egos?

Their actions, which we see and measure would indicate so.

However, there is absolutely no reason to presuppose anything on insufficient evidence.

Regards
So, does that mean that you are in agreement with me? It sounds like you are saying pretty much the same thing. I am waiting until scientific evidence proves or disproves suppositions that I contemplate.

OK. Now to the Higgs Boson joke. Did you get the humor? I thought it was clear that I was making a joke. Does DF have a sense of humor? Should I keep my humor a bit more sophomoric? Why am I asking this?
Max,

Of course it is called the god particle, I just didn't think you'd stoop so low.... lol.

And, I must admit, I've seen so much on this forum that could only be a joke... and was not meant to be. Maybe I'm a little defensive.

The people around here who say the theory of evolution is invalid because "it's just a theory" are just dumb enough to think that if the CERN guys discover the god particle, then "science has proven god". Now, that's no joke.


DF
Max, I think we can probably agree on some things here, time will tell, unfortunately my time is limited. However, I do welcome good conversation when it allows.

As for deep, I can't speak for him, but I think he has a maniacal sense of humor. Just keep in mind that we all deal with some unsavory characters on the internets.

I'm sure once you get to know each other a little better, you'll see he can be very insightful, informative, entertaining and very funny.

Regards
Yes, I think DF is a fine fellow! I have read many of his posts in the last few days, and agree that he is a provocative one! I enjoy the way he garners lively reactions to his posits.

Of course, he loves to tweak the noses of those who refuse to listen to a differing point of view, and numerous ones abound. (But then, don't we all?)

I appreciate your defense of Deep, but none was required. It is quite evident that he is a worthy opponent, and so are you! Look forward to more discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Max,

Welcome aboard.

If I might ask a favor, please use parentheses. One long, single-spaced screed is a bit much to read. I'll admit my eyes are not what they used to be.



DF, I added parenthesis for you. Hope it helps. Razzer


(Hello. This is my first post. Someone with
whom I have a correspondence suggested that I visit this forum, as it is somewhat amusing, as far as religious discussions go. So, with an admittedly brief perusal of some of the posts here, I find that some of the personae represented here fulfill the expectation. From the ridiculous to the sublime, the members here make for an interesting read. One of the tenants of Philosophy is that there is very little, in a metaphysical sense, which can be actually proven by the Scientific Method. Having this tenant as the foundation of my life, I find it rather amusing that the 'fundys', as they are described here, seem to be so sure of themselves. And the naturalists among you seem to find glee in pointing out the error of their ways. In all actuality, neither side will ever meet anywhere close to the middle. Religion, in all its forms and across all cultures, is a belief system that attempts to explain the nature of a creator of all things, and humanity's place within. In it's many iterations, religion has been around since the time when primates began to understand a sense of self. When the "I" concept began to arise in the mind, the next logical step was to wonder where we go when we die. It is a scary concept, and so a supreme being was invented by humans to take us back from where we came, rather than to the darkness when we simply 'cease to exist' on this world. For those of you who attack the religious for their faith by saying that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God, bear in mind that there is an equal paucity of evidence that proves otherwise. However, in the absence of proof of a positive test to a proposition, it can be argued that without such, the notion fails the test and is therefore, until proven otherwise, false. My point is, however, that the forum members who are so certain of the lack of existence of a higher power than their own might possibly take a step back, and moderate their stance somewhat on oblivion as the only possible next step to existence in this cosmic plane.)
Deep,

You have to be careful what you type on here. Ya know that we worship you and follow you around to see what words of wisdom are going to roll off your finger tips. When you make these kinds of mistakes we all look foolish.

I have been going around the forum for days putting all my post in parentheses. I'm glad that this was finally discovered as a mistake. I was starting to doubt your wisdom. My faith in you is now restored.
Nonya,

Please forgive the momentary lapse in my infallible perfection.

Yes, I am He who stands in place of God, master of all I survey, inerrant in word and deed and knowledge. My word is Truth and my every thought becomes manifest.

I argue against god because he is a competitor. An unworthy one, at that.


My return on investment may be a bit lacking, compared to god's, but it's honest. I can live with that. That being said, there is only one thing I must repeat:

Send A Dollar To DeepFat.

Today. Every day. You know it makes you feel better. god knows (so to speak) it makes me feel better.


DF
Al,

You know very well I was onto this scam investment opportunity long before you were!

Punkin,

The Send A Dollar To DeepFat Campaign is not charity, it is an opportunity to live, even if for the briefest moment, vicariously, through me.

When you Send A Dollar To DeepFat, you are buying the satisfaction of knowing that someone, somewhere, is having fun. It is a one-dollar strike against Puritanism. You might imagine that your dollar will end up in the glittered G-string of an orphan from Minnesota or Kentucky, or that it might be laid onto a flat piece of oak in exchange for an adult beverage. You might be right.

Don't you want to feel that satisfaction? Don't you want to know that your dollar is being used in the most irresponsible and fun way? Heck, I might even buy a Lotto ticket with it, and donate a million bucks to the ACLU or The Godless Childrens' Foundation.

Send A Dollar To DeepFat. It's the right thing to do.


DF
Report of Audit.

Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, LLC, CPA, ECV, BFD, etc.


In the fiscal year 2009, the Send A Dollar To DeepFat Foundation has progressed in a significant fashion, with income at a staggering 100% improvement. Still, it operates at a deficit. We suggest marketing.

Net income: $2.

Gross expenditures:
Orphan maintenance: $208
Adult beverages: $ 2502
Sushi served on naked Japaneses masseuses: $1500.
Fly fishing expense: $699

Gross deficit: ($3407)

We expect next year's operations to be a net positive, with many $20 donations, considering the competitive market for sushi.


D,C, & H, LLC, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
The Send A Dollar To DeepFat Campaign is not charity, it is an opportunity to live, even if for the briefest moment, vicariously, through me.


Now, DeepFat, realize we are still in a recession. I can possibly scrape together this month's installment if I take some lunch money from the Sgt's piggy bank.

It just brings my heart joy to know you are wisely spending these funds and stimulating California's economy. However, in these challenging economic times we givers need more return on our investment, so I propose you start a thread in Miscellaneous and call it Deep Thoughts with DeepFat or something and on occasion give us some nuggets of knowledge and truth from that cerebral cortex of yours. It can be a running thread, similar to Hush my darling in Entertainment. Just an idea. Good times.
quote:
Originally posted by Extra260:
AAHHHHHHHHEEEEMMMM (Throat Clearing)....

Maybe we can get this back ontrack. Max, Deep, Et al, So what think ye of the Thundering Legion? http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/rain.html


Hm... the Romans had the concept of Heaven, as evidenced by your link.

Could it just be that Jesus, a Roman subject, took that as a given, and expounded upon it? Heaven certainly was not an Old Testament concept.


Just asking.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
Originally posted by Extra260:
AAHHHHHHHHEEEEMMMM (Throat Clearing)....

Maybe we can get this back ontrack. Max, Deep, Et al, So what think ye of the Thundering Legion? http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/rain.html


Hm... the Romans had the concept of Heaven, as evidenced by your link.

Could it just be that Jesus, a Roman subject, took that as a given, and expounded upon it? Heaven certainly was not an Old Testament concept.


Just asking.


DF


I don't think you rread the link or did any research.
I'm referring to YOUR link, Ex.

quote:
Bust of Marcus Aurelius. British museum, London (Britain). Photo Marco Prins.
Marcus Aurelius
(British Museum, London)
So Marcus subdued the Marcomanni and the Iazyges after many hard struggles and dangers. A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by heaven.


According to you, "heaven" was a Roman concept.

Not a big stretch for Jesus, was it?


DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I'm referring to YOUR link, Ex.

quote:
Bust of Marcus Aurelius. British museum, London (Britain). Photo Marco Prins.
Marcus Aurelius
(British Museum, London)
So Marcus subdued the Marcomanni and the Iazyges after many hard struggles and dangers. A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by heaven.


According to you, "heaven" was a Roman concept.

Not a big stretch for Jesus, was it?


DF


I think the writer is writing from a Christian perspective. The first to tell us about this legion and the events of that day was Tertullian, one of the first great preachers after the Apostles.John the Apstle baptisted Polycarp who bacame the Bishop of Smyrna, Polycarp baptized Tertullian.

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