Hi to my Forum Friends,
While folks are knocking heads with Jennifer and Chick in the discussion about the Salvation Army, begun by Contendah and titled "Did You Know THIS About" -- where Contendah is chastising the Salvation Army over their policy of not having Baptism and Communion -- I will just slip out the back door and take my discussion with Extra on this subject elsewhere.
Extra, you tell me, "Bill, I disagree with you bit. While I agree Salvation is by faith in Christ without works, clearly Jesus commanded his followers to do two things, to both identify with Himself and act as a reminder of Him -- baptism and the Lord's Supper. The Apostles were commanded to baptize and Paul passed that command to the church in 1 Corinthians 11 when he said to "keep the ordinances as I delivered them to you."
The passage I believe you were thinking of when you wrote, "The Apostles were commanded to baptize and Paul passed that command to the church in Corinthians 11 when he said to "keep the ordinances as I delivered them to you" -- is 1 Corinthians 11:23-24, when Paul tells the church of Corinth, "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' " Here, the apostle Paul is instructing us to keep the ordinance of Communion.
Extra, I agree with you completely that Baptism and Communion are very important in our Christian lives. However, our salvation is not based upon either. But, Jesus Himself did set the standard for baptism when He had John the Baptist baptize Him -- even though He was sinless. And, He did tell us in Luke 22:19 and 1 Corinthians 11:24-25 to take Communion in remembrance of Him.
But, if you will look at 1 Corinthians 1:11-12, the apostle Paul is chastising the church at Corinth because they are arguing over who baptized them, i.e., "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, 'I am of Paul,' and 'I of Apollos,' and 'I of Cephas,' and 'I of Christ.' "
And, in the following passage, Paul tells them, in 1 Corinthians 1:13-17, "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."
And, in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul is still admonishing the church of Corinth for the way it acts when taking the Lord's Supper.
1 Corinthians 11:17-22, "But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."
First, while Paul calls this the Lord's Supper -- I relate to this more as a Food Fellowship. For they are actually eating their dinner/supper at this time. To me, this is more like what we read in Acts 2:42 of the new Christian church, "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer."
And, I can easily relate to this -- for the Filipino churches are infamous for our Food Fellowship. After our worship service and before Sunday School, we have Food Fellowship -- most often lots of scrumptious Filipino food. We take about 45 minutes to an hour to fellowship with one another, enjoy the company of our Christian brothers and sisters, and at the same time have great food. Then, we finish the day in Sunday School -- studying and discussing God's Word. This is the feeling I get from the passage above and Paul's admonition that some are hogging the food and leaving others to stay hungry.
Communion (or the true Lord's Supper), on the other hand, is the taking of unleavened bread/wafers which symbolize the body of Christ, broken for us. And, it is the drinking of juice which symbolizes the blood of Christ, spilled for us. And, we do this in remembrance of Him and what He has done for us.
But, this is very important. Who is to take this symbolic body and blood of Christ in Communion with Him? It is only meant for those in the family of God, those who are children of God through having been born-again into His body of believers.
1 Corinthians 11:26-27, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup." The non-believer should never take Communion.
Since Communion/the Lord's Supper is only for those who are already saved -- it cannot be a part of our salvation. But, like baptism, we do both in remembrance of Him and what He did to offer us salvation. Neither is a condition of salvation. Both are the result of our being already saved.
Then, Extra, you tell me, "While I have no beef with the Salvation army, I don't recognize them as a church. I see them more as an extension of the church. That said, since they are not a church, and their clergy not ordained, they have no biblical authority to practice Baptism or Communion."
First, I believe any believer has the authority to baptize another or to serve Communion. One does not have to be an ordained pastor to do this.
In Protestant churches, an ordained pastor is one who has a Master's degree from an accredited seminary. However, a local church can commission a man to be pastor of that local church without the degree. This most often happens when a commissioned pastor is also attending seminary. Twelve years ago, the man who is pastor of our church in Corona was a seminary student at Biola University/Talbot Seminary when our senior pastor commissioned him as pastor of our local church. Two years later, when he finished seminary, he was ordained. But, during that two years he functioned as our pastor and did a very good job.
Regarding the Salvation Army -- like you, I have never thought of it as a church. But, there are people who do attend their services as though it is a church. Why would you say that their clergy is not ordained?
From the Salvation Army "About Us" Web Site: http://www.salvationarmysouth.org/about.htm
Salvation Army officers are ordained ministers serving in The Salvation Army in a professional capacity and on a full-time basis. They are members of The Salvation Army who commit their lives to doing God's will and serving others.
However, I did learn one thing from this web page which surprised me. It appears that the Salvation Army is Arminian in their beliefs. For, in their "What The Salvation Army Believes" section, we are told:
Repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit, are necessary to salvation.
We are justified by grace, through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.
Continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.
It is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is the Arminian belief that a person once truly saved -- can lose his/her salvation. This doe not agree with Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 which tells us that a person who believes is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. If that person is sealed by the Holy Spirit -- how can he/she be drawn away from God? And, Jesus tells us in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" This does not say, "Has eternal life if. . ." or "Still has eternal life if. . ." No, it says, "He who believes HAS eternal life"
And, we are assured in John 10:28-29 that NO ONE (and that No One is all inclusive, also including the believer himself) can snatch the believer from the hands of Jesus Christ and God the Father.
So, since the Holy Spirit has sealed me in Christ -- and Jesus Christ Himself has assured me that NO ONE can snatch me out of His hands -- I feel very secure in Christ. That is eternal security -- and anyone who is always looking over his shoulders, afraid of losing his salvation -- cannot possibly have eternal security.
So, Extra, I suppose in summary, I must say that although I had not looked at the Salvation Army as a church before -- it does appear that they are a church, with ordained pastors. And, while I do not necessarily agree with them on their practice of no baptism and no Communion -- that does not stop them from being a very effective Christian church.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill