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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by Hammerhead titled "Dear Winnie the Bill" -- I responded to VP's post, "The Bible tells us believers are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- and God no longer sees our sins, but, only the righteousness of Christ. Is the Bible wrong? If a person takes this to be a "get out of jail free" card -- then, that person does not truly understand God's Word -- or that person does not believe God's Word."

And, O No asks, "Bill, could you show us which Bible verse(s) say that God no longer sees our sins? Thanks."

Thank you for asking this question. This all boils down to two basic questions. Let's examine those two questions before proceeding to O No's question.

1. If YOU were to die today, do YOU know for sure that YOU will go to heaven?

2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?

Alone in your private room, how will YOU answer those two vital questions, today, right now? Tomorrow may be too late. An hour from now may be too late. These two eternally important questions you need to resolve right now -- for no one knows when that last breath in this mortal body will come.

Next, how does God views the "works" that some folks believe will get them into heaven?

Isaiah 64:6, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds (works) are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

This Scripture verse is telling us that folks can work themselves to death -- but, they CANNOT work themselves into heaven. Then, how can one attain heaven? How can one enter into God's heaven? Glad you asked.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Here we learn that our works, no matter how extensive, cannot save us -- yet, God is offering us a "gift" -- the gift of eternal life to all who will believe and receive His "gift." A "gift" by it very nature is free. If it were not free, if we had to earn it -- it would be "wages" and not a "gift." So, are you seeking the gift of heaven? Or, are you seeking the wages of heaven? If wages, how will you know when you have worked enough to earn your way into heaven?

No one can earn eternal life with God; but, He is willing to give it to you -- FREE -- if you will, by His grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- believe and receive this gift of eternal salvation. How much easier can He make it?

On the other hand, once a person has become a Christian believer -- by grace, through faith alone -- then, all his/her works for the kingdom of God are greatly blessed by God. To summarize that thought: Works are the result, the fruit, of our salvation. Works are not the cause of our salvation.

So, let's once again summarize the situation. We want to go to heaven for eternity, but we, and our works, look like filthy rags to God. And, God cannot look upon such evil, such filth. How do we know this?

Habakkuk 1:13, "Your (God) eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor."

Matthew 27:46, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'"

When Jesus Christ went to the cross to pay our sin debt to God, He had all of my sins, all of your sins, and all the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future -- placed upon Him. And, because of our sins, our unrighteousness, God could not even look upon His own Son. Can you imagine the pain of having your own father turn from you, turn his back upon you in your time of great suffering -- not even able to look upon you? Then, multiply that pain by a quadrillion times -- and that is the pain of Jesus Christ when His Father, God, turned away and could not look upon Him hanging on the cross, bearing our sins.

Why? Because, as we are told in Habakkuk 1:13, God cannot look upon wickedness, i.e., sin or unrighteousness. And, when Jesus Christ took our unrighteousness, the filthy garments of our self proclaimed "righteous deeds and works" (Isaiah 64:6) -- upon Himself on the cross -- the Father turned His back upon Him, not being able to look upon such sin.

So, O No, my Friend, when you ask, "Bill, could you show us which Bible verse(s) say that God no longer sees our sins? -- this should answer that question. If God could not look upon His own Son because of our sins; how can He look upon us who own those sins?

If God could not look upon His own Son, Jesus Christ when He bore our sins -- how can WE ever expect God the Father to look upon us, covered as we are in sinful unrighteousness?

What we need is a shield, or umbrella, which will hide our unrighteousness from the eyes of God -- so that when He looks at us, He does not see our filthy righteousness -- but, instead He will see a righteousness which is perfect.

Where do we find such an Umbrella of Righteousness to cover us? We have to look no further than Jesus Christ. He is standing at the door of our hearts, waiting for us to open the door, our hearts, and invite Him to come in and be our Best Friend and to be our Righteousness (Revelation 3:20).

This is another area where we Protestants differ from our Roman Catholic Friends. We believe the righteousness of Jesus Christ is "imputed" or attributed to us the moment we become a believer. We believe that, at that moment of believing and inviting Him to come into our hearts and to be Master of our lives -- the Holy Spirit indwells us and seals us for the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) and the Righteousness of Jesus Christ becomes our Spiritual Umbrella, as we will see in Scripture passages below. In other words, we do not become righteous; instead, we have the righteousness of Jesus Christ covering us.

So, while we believe that His righteousness is "imputed" to us as believers -- our Roman Catholic Friends believe that His righteousness is "infused" into the believer, making the believer himself/herself righteous. However, this belief conflicts with Isaiah 64:6 which tells us our righteousness is like filthy garments -- and, in Isaiah, there is no suggested method of cleansing those filthy garments. Those garments, according to Isaiah and the rest of the Bible, will always be filthy as long as we are in these mortal bodies.

Therefore, there is no way that we can have righteousness "infused" into us making us righteous. But, we can be "covered" by the righteousness of Jesus Christ so that when God looks at us -- He sees only Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ died and went to the grave bearing our sins. He arose, resurrected, as the glorified, immortal God Incarnate and ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father, continually interceding for all Christian believers. He is our sole Mediator, our Shield, our Divine Advocate/Attorney before God the Father.

He stands before the Father, for us, in His righteousness. We do not stand before God for ourselves in our righteousness -- for He could not look upon us -- just as He could not look upon Jesus Christ hanging on the cross; but, turned His back.

O No, you asked which Bible verses or passages tell us that, as Christian believers, we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- and because of His righteousness God does not see our unrighteousness. You asked me to show you why I wrote, "God no longer sees our sins, but, only the righteousness of Christ." Let's examine some of those Scripture passages.

Romans 4:4-7, Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.'"

Rom 4:20-25, "He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore 'it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

Based upon this Scripture passage, I believe that righteousness in "imputed" to believers -- not "infused" into believers.

Romans 5:17, "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

1 Corinthians 1:30, "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."

Philippians 3:8-9, "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

To O No, and to all my Forum Friends, I pray that this will help all of us better understand the role His righteousness plays in our salvation, in our eternal security, and in our justification, by which we sinful mortals become "forgiven sinners" and are made acceptable in the eyes of our holy God.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, I could not find anything in the Bible that said God could not look upon Jesus on the cross. In Matthew and Mark, Jesus did indeed say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". In Luke and John, that wasn't mentioned.

MY take on that is simply this: Just as His human nature was afraid enough to ask God to "take this cup from me", His human nature when suffering so terribly as He did on the cross, brought Him to cry out that He felt forsaken.

Shortly after that He said "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit". I am certain that God heard that. If He couldn't look upon Jesus, He couldn't hear that.

The scripture verses you quoted, such a Habakkuk 1:13 say that God cannot look upon wickedness WITH FAVOR. To ME, that implies that He CAN see it, just not approve it.

I KNOW that Jesus has paid for my sins, and that God no longer sees any sins I committed before being saved, but I believe He still sees any sins I commit AFTER being saved until I repent.

Jesus Himself told us how to pray, and in that Lord's Prayer, we are to ask Him to forgive our trespasses. If God couldn't SEE them, there would be nothing to ask for. I PERSONALLY believe that once we ask His forgivness for new sins we commit, THEN they are blotted out.

And of course, every day we should ask Him to help us NOT sin. ("lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil").

Just my thoughts on this.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, I could not find anything in the Bible that said God could not look upon Jesus on the cross. In Matthew and Mark, Jesus did indeed say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". In Luke and John, that wasn't mentioned.

MY take on that is simply this: Just as His human nature was afraid enough to ask God to "take this cup from me", His human nature when suffering so terribly as He did on the cross, brought Him to cry out that He felt forsaken.

Shortly after that He said "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit". I am certain that God heard that. If He couldn't look upon Jesus, He couldn't hear that.

The scripture verses you quoted, such a Habakkuk 1:13 say that God cannot look upon wickedness WITH FAVOR. To ME, that implies that He CAN see it, just not approve it.

I KNOW that Jesus has paid for my sins, and that God no longer sees any sins I committed before being saved, but I believe He still sees any sins I commit AFTER being saved until I repent.

Jesus Himself told us how to pray, and in that Lord's Prayer, we are to ask Him to forgive our trespasses. If God couldn't SEE them, there would be nothing to ask for. I PERSONALLY believe that once we ask His forgivness for new sins we commit, THEN they are blotted out.

And of course, every day we should ask Him to help us NOT sin. ("lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil").

Just my thoughts on this.


You hit the nail on the head with this post! It is a breath of fresh air to see truth posted in here. Bill has his own religion acording to Bill. Bill said God couldnt look upon Jesus because Jesus was full of sin. Our sins. WRONG ANSWER, the major part of the ATONEMENT of Jesus took place in the garden of gasemine. Jesus suffered so much there for our sins and sweat drops of blood because of it. Did God turn His back on Jesus there? NO WAY! God sent angels to minister to Jesus. GOD DID NOT TURN HIS BACK ON JESUS AND HE DOESNT TURN HIS BACK ON US EITHER< EVEN AS FALLEN AND SINFUL AS WE ARE< HE STILL HEARS OUR PRAYERS AND ANSWERS THEM!!!! I say that in the name of JESUS CHRIST AMEN!!!!!!

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Hi O NO,

You tell me, "Bill, I could not find anything in the Bible that said God could not look upon Jesus on the cross. In Matthew and Mark, Jesus did indeed say 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' In Luke and John, that wasn't mentioned.

MY take on that is simply this: Just as His human nature was afraid enough to ask God to 'take this cup from me,' His human nature when suffering so terribly as He did on the cross, brought Him to cry out that He felt forsaken.

Shortly after that He said "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit." I am certain that God heard that. If He couldn't look upon Jesus, He couldn't hear that."


O No, Jesus obviously is telling us that God had forsaken Him. Why? Because Jesus Christ had taken the sins of the world -- all of my sins, your sins, the sins of the entire creation, past, present, and future -- upon Himself.

What was the Father's reaction to this abundance of sin? He forsook Jesus Christ on the cross, i.e., in other words, He turned His back upon Jesus Christ. Forsaking, turning one's back -- is the same as not being able to look upon that person. This is what happened to Jesus Christ on the cross -- and this is why the sky went dark for three hours.

But, let's look at what other Christian leaders say about this:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Lama Sabachthani?" A Sermon (No. 2133)
Delivered on Lord's-day Morning, March 2nd, 1890,
By Charles. H. Spurgeon, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Sermons&ar=Mat_27_46

All the tortures of his body he endured in silence; but when it came to being forsaken of God, then his great heart burst out into its "Lama sabachthani?" His one moan is concerning his God. It is not, "Why has Peter forsaken me? Why has Judas betrayed me?" These were sharp griefs, but this is the sharpest. This stroke has cut him to the quick: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" It was no phantom of the gloom; it was a real absence which he mourned.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany,
writes in his Study Guide for Matthew 27:
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Matthew&ar=Mat_27_46

b. Why have You forsaken Me? Jesus knew great pain and suffering - both physical and emotional - in His life, but had never known separation from His Father; now He does. There was a significant sense in which Jesus rightly felt forsaken by the Father at this moment.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
wrote in his Matthew 27-28 Commentary (C2000 Series):
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Matthew&ar=Mat_27_46

But also as we hear this cry we begin to understand the agony in the garden the night before, when He began to sweat as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground, as He was pleading with the Father, if it was possible let the cup pass. This is the bitterness of the cup that He had to drink, that effect that sin has of separating a man from God.

Through the eternity past, He had always been one with the Father, never separated. But when God laid on Him the iniquities of us all, because God cannot look in agreement upon sin, there came that separation, as He tasted for a moment that separation from God, in order that you would not have to be separated from God eternally. God laid on Him the iniquities of us all. And when the sins of the world were laid on Jesus, He was forsaken of God.

And thus, that cry that rang out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" I am certain that none of us have ever experienced quite like He did, that awesomeness of being forsaken of God. Because God has never forsaken any of us, even though we rebel. God has always been there.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

O No, if you want to join forces with Mormonism or any other false or cult religion, I suppose that is your choice. But, every Christian believer is called to expose cult religions and false religions -- not join them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
O No, Jesus obviously is telling us that God had forsaken Him. Why? Because Jesus Christ had taken the sins of the world -- all of my sins, your sins, the sins of the entire creation, past, present, and future -- upon Himself.




obviously it's because he had these great huge spikes hammered through his wrists and feet, and was in quite a lot of pain.. that's why. thorns.. lash scars.. beaten bloody broken battered and bruised, then nailed to some lumber.
i think the ' why hast thou forsaken me' bit would be pretty easy to fathom.
even for you.

lets hammer some nails into you and see how long before you ask god why he's letting it happen.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
O No, Jesus obviously is telling us that God had forsaken Him. Why? Because Jesus Christ had taken the sins of the world -- all of my sins, your sins, the sins of the entire creation, past, present, and future -- upon Himself.




obviously it's because he had these great huge spikes hammered through his wrists and feet, and was in quite a lot of pain.. that's why. thorns.. lash scars.. beaten bloody broken battered and bruised, then nailed to some lumber.
i think the ' why hast thou forsaken me' bit would be pretty easy to fathom.
even for you.

lets hammer some nails into you and see how long before you ask god why he's letting it happen.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

nagel, Good to see you aren't buying the , God forsaken Jesus scam, when Jesus
is doing the most selfless act ever performed by a human.

1st) God isn't turning his back on you with sin on your soul.

2nd) Jesus didn't commit the sins, he took them away from us.

.
quote:
O No, if you want to join forces with Mormonism or any other false or cult religion, I suppose that is your choice. But, every Christian believer is called to expose cult religions and false religions -- not join them.



You see, Bill, THIS is why so many people on this forum find you hard to take. I very politely showed you why I disagreed with you, and you accuse me of joining a cult.

I have spoken about this subject with two of my dearest friends who are both pastors. One is Methodist, and one is Baptist. They both agreed with me that God did NOT turn His back on Jesus. If you google it, I'm sure you can find plenty of other learned Christians who disagree with you. That DOES NOT make them cultists.

As for myself, I am one who KNOWS that different people will have different takes on what any given Bible passage means. BUT I also know that if they know Jesus died for them, and if they love the Lord with all their hearts, they are indeed Christians. I would NEVER accuse a true Christian of being a cultist just because they had a different idea about what a Bible passage means.

You have often said that sometimes we have to agree to disagree. And yet you fling the word "cult" at anyone who disagrees with you.

Have you never considered the possiblility that you may be wrong sometimes? Or even if you think you are ALWAYS right, have you never considered the possibility that people can disagree with you and still be Christians?

I can't say for CERTAIN that I am right and you are wrong in our interpretations of this Bible verse, but I CAN say for certain that you are wrong in your response to my disagreement.

I will pray that the Lord will soften your pride so that you will become a better witness for Him.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by Hammerhead titled "Dear Winnie the Bill" -- I responded to VP's post, "The Bible tells us believers are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- and God no longer sees our sins, but, only the righteousness of Christ. Is the Bible wrong? If a person takes this to be a "get out of jail free" card -- then, that person does not truly understand God's Word -- or that person does not believe God's Word."

And, O No asks, "Bill, could you show us which Bible verse(s) say that God no longer sees our sins? Thanks."

Thank you for asking this question. This all boils down to two basic questions. Let's examine those two questions before proceeding to O No's question.

1. If YOU were to die today, do YOU know for sure that YOU will go to heaven?

2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?

Alone in your private room, how will YOU answer those two vital questions, today, right now? Tomorrow may be too late. An hour from now may be too late. These two eternally important questions you need to resolve right now -- for no one knows when that last breath in this mortal body will come.

Next, how does God views the "works" that some folks believe will get them into heaven?

Isaiah 64:6, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds (works) are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

This Scripture verse is telling us that folks can work themselves to death -- but, they CANNOT work themselves into heaven. Then, how can one attain heaven? How can one enter into God's heaven? Glad you asked.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Here we learn that our works, no matter how extensive, cannot save us -- yet, God is offering us a "gift" -- the gift of eternal life to all who will believe and receive His "gift." A "gift" by it very nature is free. If it were not free, if we had to earn it -- it would be "wages" and not a "gift." So, are you seeking the gift of heaven? Or, are you seeking the wages of heaven? If wages, how will you know when you have worked enough to earn your way into heaven?

No one can earn eternal life with God; but, He is willing to give it to you -- FREE -- if you will, by His grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- believe and receive this gift of eternal salvation. How much easier can He make it?

On the other hand, once a person has become a Christian believer -- by grace, through faith alone -- then, all his/her works for the kingdom of God are greatly blessed by God. To summarize that thought: Works are the result, the fruit, of our salvation. Works are not the cause of our salvation.

So, let's once again summarize the situation. We want to go to heaven for eternity, but we, and our works, look like filthy rags to God. And, God cannot look upon such evil, such filth. How do we know this?

Habakkuk 1:13, "Your (God) eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor."

Matthew 27:46, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'"

When Jesus Christ went to the cross to pay our sin debt to God, He had all of my sins, all of your sins, and all the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future -- placed upon Him. And, because of our sins, our unrighteousness, God could not even look upon His own Son. Can you imagine the pain of having your own father turn from you, turn his back upon you in your time of great suffering -- not even able to look upon you? Then, multiply that pain by a quadrillion times -- and that is the pain of Jesus Christ when His Father, God, turned away and could not look upon Him hanging on the cross, bearing our sins.

Why? Because, as we are told in Habakkuk 1:13, God cannot look upon wickedness, i.e., sin or unrighteousness. And, when Jesus Christ took our unrighteousness, the filthy garments of our self proclaimed "righteous deeds and works" (Isaiah 64:6) -- upon Himself on the cross -- the Father turned His back upon Him, not being able to look upon such sin.

So, O No, my Friend, when you ask, "Bill, could you show us which Bible verse(s) say that God no longer sees our sins? -- this should answer that question. If God could not look upon His own Son because of our sins; how can He look upon us who own those sins?

If God could not look upon His own Son, Jesus Christ when He bore our sins -- how can WE ever expect God the Father to look upon us, covered as we are in sinful unrighteousness?

What we need is a shield, or umbrella, which will hide our unrighteousness from the eyes of God -- so that when He looks at us, He does not see our filthy righteousness -- but, instead He will see a righteousness which is perfect.

Where do we find such an Umbrella of Righteousness to cover us? We have to look no further than Jesus Christ. He is standing at the door of our hearts, waiting for us to open the door, our hearts, and invite Him to come in and be our Best Friend and to be our Righteousness (Revelation 3:20).

This is another area where we Protestants differ from our Roman Catholic Friends. We believe the righteousness of Jesus Christ is "imputed" or attributed to us the moment we become a believer. We believe that, at that moment of believing and inviting Him to come into our hearts and to be Master of our lives -- the Holy Spirit indwells us and seals us for the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) and the Righteousness of Jesus Christ becomes our Spiritual Umbrella, as we will see in Scripture passages below. In other words, we do not become righteous; instead, we have the righteousness of Jesus Christ covering us.

So, while we believe that His righteousness is "imputed" to us as believers -- our Roman Catholic Friends believe that His righteousness is "infused" into the believer, making the believer himself/herself righteous. However, this belief conflicts with Isaiah 64:6 which tells us our righteousness is like filthy garments -- and, in Isaiah, there is no suggested method of cleansing those filthy garments. Those garments, according to Isaiah and the rest of the Bible, will always be filthy as long as we are in these mortal bodies.

Therefore, there is no way that we can have righteousness "infused" into us making us righteous. But, we can be "covered" by the righteousness of Jesus Christ so that when God looks at us -- He sees only Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ died and went to the grave bearing our sins. He arose, resurrected, as the glorified, immortal God Incarnate and ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father, continually interceding for all Christian believers. He is our sole Mediator, our Shield, our Divine Advocate/Attorney before God the Father.

He stands before the Father, for us, in His righteousness. We do not stand before God for ourselves in our righteousness -- for He could not look upon us -- just as He could not look upon Jesus Christ hanging on the cross; but, turned His back.

O No, you asked which Bible verses or passages tell us that, as Christian believers, we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- and because of His righteousness God does not see our unrighteousness. You asked me to show you why I wrote, "God no longer sees our sins, but, only the righteousness of Christ." Let's examine some of those Scripture passages.

Romans 4:4-7, Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.'"

Rom 4:20-25, "He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore 'it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

Based upon this Scripture passage, I believe that righteousness in "imputed" to believers -- not "infused" into believers.

Romans 5:17, "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

1 Corinthians 1:30, "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."

Philippians 3:8-9, "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

To O No, and to all my Forum Friends, I pray that this will help all of us better understand the role His righteousness plays in our salvation, in our eternal security, and in our justification, by which we sinful mortals become "forgiven sinners" and are made acceptable in the eyes of our holy God.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).



billie boy,
The first few lines of this post tells me if anyone who doesn't believe
the word of God, ITS YOU.

Big k.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
O No, if you want to join forces with Mormonism or any other false or cult religion, I suppose that is your choice. But, every Christian believer is called to expose cult religions and false religions -- not join them.

You see, Bill, THIS is why so many people on this forum find you hard to take. I very politely showed you why I disagreed with you, and you accuse me of joining a cult.

I have spoken about this subject with two of my dearest friends who are both pastors. One is Methodist, and one is Baptist. They both agreed with me that God did NOT turn His back on Jesus. If you google it, I'm sure you can find plenty of other learned Christians who disagree with you. That DOES NOT make them cultists.

As for myself, I am one who KNOWS that different people will have different takes on what any given Bible passage means. BUT I also know that if they know Jesus died for them, and if they love the Lord with all their hearts, they are indeed Christians. I would NEVER accuse a true Christian of being a cultist just because they had a different idea about what a Bible passage means.

You have often said that sometimes we have to agree to disagree. And yet you fling the word "cult" at anyone who disagrees with you.

Have you never considered the possibility that you may be wrong sometimes? Or even if you think you are ALWAYS right, have you never considered the possibility that people can disagree with you and still be Christians?

I can't say for CERTAIN that I am right and you are wrong in our interpretations of this Bible verse, but I CAN say for certain that you are wrong in your response to my disagreement. I will pray that the Lord will soften your pride so that you will become a better witness for Him.

Hi O,

You are right. That last comment I made was wrong. While no excuse is really acceptable; I suppose I was reacting more to Dwight/Skippy's overzealous joy at what you wrote -- instead of addressing you alone. Please forgive me.

Regarding my belief that God could not look upon Jesus Christ when He had taken all of the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross -- I still believe that is what the Bible is teaching us.

We are unrighteous, filthy garments in the eyes of God (Isaiah 64:6) and can never be righteous enough within ourselves to satisfy the wrath of God brought upon the whole creation by the disobedience of Adam. However, His justice is perfect and His love is perfect. Therefore, He sent His Son to be the ONLY sinless human who was and is righteous enough to pay our sin debt.

Jesus Christ took the sins of the world, every single person -- past, present, and future -- upon Himself to pay the sin debt that we could never pay. We are told in Habakkuk 1:13 that God cannot look up unrighteousness, i.e., our wickedness, which was laid upon His back. So, when Jesus said, on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" -- it was because God had forsaken Him, or turned His back upon Him, because of the awful stench of sin emanating from the cross, the stench of our unrighteousness, our sin.

Have you ever turned your back upon someone, in anger or in jest? When you did, isn't it true that you were not looking upon that person? It doesn't mean that you cannot hear this person; just that you refuse to look at this person -- for whatever reason. This is what happened on the cross and why the sky went dark for three hours -- God turned His back upon Jesus Christ hanging on the cross for you and me.

O No, yes, you can find other Christians and pastors who will agree with most any interpretation you want; but, we have to prayerfully study to understand what God is telling us in His Written Word. And, we have to, at times, seek the knowledge of others more learned than we, others who have matured more in the knowledge of His Word than we.

In doing this myself, I am comfortable with my understanding that, when Jesus Christ hang upon the cross, bearing my sins upon Himself -- God turned His back upon Him because He could not look upon such sin. I am comfortable with that interpretation. If you are not, no problem -- for what you believe about this does not affect your salvation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
God turned His back upon Him because He could not look upon such sin.

Say what? I hope I am misreading this........

Please clarify, or show me the verse which states such.

Hi VP,

If you will read our earlier posts, you will find all the Scripture passages.

If you disagree, don't just wave your arms. Tell us YOUR interpretations of those verses.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Thanks for the apology, Bill.

The two Pastors who are my dear friends have "been in the business" for a lot of years. One of them has tried several times to retire, but God keeps calling him back. He is in his mid-70's and is a very reverent, wonderful man. I have a lot of respect for him.

The other is 60 and a very thought filled man. We meet every Thursday night and our discussions range far and wide. I always have questions for him and he for me. We ALWAYS turn to scripture to answer these questions.

I was very glad to see that these two men whom I respect so much thought the same way I do. But you are correct that in the end, how we interpret this verse make no difference in our salvation.

Won't it be interesting when we reach our final destination and find out for sure? Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi O NO,

You tell me, "Bill, I could not find anything in the Bible that said God could not look upon Jesus on the cross. In Matthew and Mark, Jesus did indeed say 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' In Luke and John, that wasn't mentioned.

MY take on that is simply this: Just as His human nature was afraid enough to ask God to 'take this cup from me,' His human nature when suffering so terribly as He did on the cross, brought Him to cry out that He felt forsaken.

Shortly after that He said "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit." I am certain that God heard that. If He couldn't look upon Jesus, He couldn't hear that."


O No, Jesus obviously is telling us that God had forsaken Him. Why? Because Jesus Christ had taken the sins of the world -- all of my sins, your sins, the sins of the entire creation, past, present, and future -- upon Himself.

What was the Father's reaction to this abundance of sin? He forsook Jesus Christ on the cross, i.e., in other words, He turned His back upon Jesus Christ. Forsaking, turning one's back -- is the same as not being able to look upon that person. This is what happened to Jesus Christ on the cross -- and this is why the sky went dark for three hours.

But, let's look at what other Christian leaders say about this:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Lama Sabachthani?" A Sermon (No. 2133)
Delivered on Lord's-day Morning, March 2nd, 1890,
By Charles. H. Spurgeon, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Sermons&ar=Mat_27_46

All the tortures of his body he endured in silence; but when it came to being forsaken of God, then his great heart burst out into its "Lama sabachthani?" His one moan is concerning his God. It is not, "Why has Peter forsaken me? Why has Judas betrayed me?" These were sharp griefs, but this is the sharpest. This stroke has cut him to the quick: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" It was no phantom of the gloom; it was a real absence which he mourned.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany,
writes in his Study Guide for Matthew 27:
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Matthew&ar=Mat_27_46

b. Why have You forsaken Me? Jesus knew great pain and suffering - both physical and emotional - in His life, but had never known separation from His Father; now He does. There was a significant sense in which Jesus rightly felt forsaken by the Father at this moment.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
wrote in his Matthew 27-28 Commentary (C2000 Series):
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Matthew&ar=Mat_27_46

But also as we hear this cry we begin to understand the agony in the garden the night before, when He began to sweat as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground, as He was pleading with the Father, if it was possible let the cup pass. This is the bitterness of the cup that He had to drink, that effect that sin has of separating a man from God.

Through the eternity past, He had always been one with the Father, never separated. But when God laid on Him the iniquities of us all, because God cannot look in agreement upon sin, there came that separation, as He tasted for a moment that separation from God, in order that you would not have to be separated from God eternally. God laid on Him the iniquities of us all. And when the sins of the world were laid on Jesus, He was forsaken of God.

And thus, that cry that rang out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" I am certain that none of us have ever experienced quite like He did, that awesomeness of being forsaken of God. Because God has never forsaken any of us, even though we rebel. God has always been there.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

O No, if you want to join forces with Mormonism or any other false or cult religion, I suppose that is your choice. But, every Christian believer is called to expose cult religions and false religions -- not join them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill once again your own, (and other self rightous Know it alls), FAULSE INTERPITATIONS of Scripture. The Garden is where The Attonement took place. The Attonement is where because of Eternal Law Jesus suffered for EVERY SIN that man had committed. Past, Present and Future. When he died on the cross it was to fulfill the reserection for he and us. His Father did not or ever will turn his back on his son. As O no stated he withdrew His Spirit from Christ but only for a moment. He didn't turn away, He looked upon Him in complete sorrow. The skys darkened and natural disasters happened around the world because of God's anger.
quote:
Originally posted by skippy delepepper:
Bill once again your own, (and other self rightous (SIC) Know it alls (SIC)), FAULSE (SIC) INTERPITATIONS (SIC) of Scripture. The Garden is where The Attonement (SIC) took place. The Attonement (SIC) is where because of Eternal Law Jesus suffered for EVERY SIN that man had committed. Past, Present and Future. When he died on the cross it was to fulfill the reserection (SIC) for he and us. His Father did not or ever will turn his back on his son. As O no stated he withdrew His Spirit from Christ but only for a moment. He didn't turn away, He looked upon Him in complete sorrow. The skys (SIC) darkened and natural disasters happened around the world because of God's anger.

DWIGHT/SKIPPY, IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPT - WHY ARE YOU PUSHING YOURSELF INTO THE PLAY?

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
when Jesus Christ hang upon the cross, bearing my sins upon Himself -- God turned His back upon Him because He could not look upon such sin. I am comfortable with that interpretation. If you are not, no problem -- for what you believe about this does not affect your salvation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


God seems a bit squeamish when He can't look Himself in the face.
We need at least two witnesses to explain what is being said. (Mat 18:16, 2Co 13:1) Witnesses agree and tell the truth.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. You would do very well to read it in it's entirety. Here is the first verse in Psalm 22.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

The rest of Psalm 22 explains what Jesus meant when He said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". I will give you a key verse from Psalm 22 that should destroy the heresy Mr. Gray is teaching, that God forsook Jesus.

Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Interestingly the following chapter says this.

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Psa 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus lied when He said this?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man (on the cross), then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

'Always' from the Greek.

G3842
πάντοτε
pantote
pan'-tot-eh
From G3956 and G3753; every when, that is, at all times: - always (-s), ever (-more).

Is there any doubt as to what 'always' means? Shouldnt be, but it happens.

Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

gdriggs
Last edited by gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

Hi Al Williams,

Welcome back in your other dress. How is your friend, Ray Smith, and the rest of the Universalism crowd doing?

1 Peter 2:24, "And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
O No, Jesus obviously is telling us that God had forsaken Him. Why? Because Jesus Christ had taken the sins of the world -- all of my sins, your sins, the sins of the entire creation, past, present, and future -- upon Himself.




obviously it's because he had these great huge spikes hammered through his wrists and feet, and was in quite a lot of pain.. that's why. thorns.. lash scars.. beaten bloody broken battered and bruised, then nailed to some lumber.
i think the ' why hast thou forsaken me' bit would be pretty easy to fathom.
even for you.

lets hammer some nails into you and see how long before you ask god why he's letting it happen.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

nagel, Good to see you aren't buying the , God forsaken Jesus scam, when Jesus
is doing the most selfless act ever performed by a human.

1st) God isn't turning his back on you with sin on your soul.

2nd) Jesus didn't commit the sins, he took them away from us.

.


Isn't it curious that God, the wisest being in the Universe, couldn't come up with something less lame than murdering his only son in order to "save" mankind? God seems to be totally lacking in imagination. It always seemed kind of silly to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

Hi Al Williams,

Welcome back in your other dress. How is your friend, Ray Smith, and the rest of the Universalism crowd doing?

1 Peter 2:24, "And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


hey bill, you forgot to answer my question..

answer this..... if he could poof things into being like that.... snap, poof= universe.. snap, poof=earth, snap poof= ocean and fish, snap poof= trees and cows.. .etc etc....if he could poof it all into place at will...
why did he blow 6 days to do what could have been done instantly, and why did he do it one bit at a time?

sorry.. just wanted to make sure you saw it... i kow your old eyes aren't what they used to be. i didn't want to take the chance of you ' not noticing it', liek has happened with so many other questions.

you accuse windsong of not answering questions, while the rest of us see you do the same thing.

put up or shut up bill..

answer the question, or you lose the right to bring up windsong not answering anything ever again.

so bill, art thou a hipocrit?
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

Hi Al Williams,

Welcome back in your other dress. How is your friend, Ray Smith, and the rest of the Universalism crowd doing?

1 Peter 2:24, "And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


hey bill, you forgot to answer my question..

answer this..... if he could poof things into being like that.... snap, poof= universe.. snap, poof=earth, snap poof= ocean and fish, snap poof= trees and cows.. .etc etc....if he could poof it all into place at will...
why did he blow 6 days to do what could have been done instantly, and why did he do it one bit at a time?

sorry.. just wanted to make sure you saw it... i kow your old eyes aren't what they used to be. i didn't want to take the chance of you ' not noticing it', liek has happened with so many other questions.

you accuse windsong of not answering questions, while the rest of us see you do the same thing.

put up or shut up bill..

answer the question, or you lose the right to bring up windsong not answering anything ever again.

so bill, art thou a hipocrit?

Nagel’ what is it, that you have done for mankind that makes you insist you deserve an answer from Bill.

If an answer is only for your own personal need and given there would be an infinite possibility of answers why don’t you just pick the answer that satisfies you and tell the rest of us.

One possibility:

Let’s imagine a subset of numbers 6.…….n/20. Let’s also consider an axiom unknown to Bill which states any creation considered complete must happen within this subset of numbers and must occur in no less than the smallest positive number of the subset that being the number six. Six then can be Bill’s answer and satisfies as an answer to you question because it falls within 1.………n possibilities.

Further for drill let’s say bill says “he could have done it in: [the smallest amount of time not definable in under twelve words”]

What would you say then nagel?
Last edited by buffalo
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

Hi Al Williams,



1 Peter 2:24, "And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."



Bill


What does it mean "He Himself bore our sins in His body"?.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation [Greek:atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hope this helps.

gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus was made sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems like you are saying that. If not then forget about it.

Hi Al Williams,



1 Peter 2:24, "And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."



Bill


What does it mean "He Himself bore our sins in His body"?.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation [Greek:atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hope this helps.

gdriggs


I love it when people quote the Bible as if they think it really means anything.
quote:
2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?



here's how i would start:

god? i have no desire to come into that house full of all the asswholes you had in that timesdaily forum! no thanks!

by the way, what in the hell where you thinking? why all the hate, you big jerk? why did you allow those boms to be dropped on japan? why all those starvng children in the Sudan while you let some old fart in california sit high and mighty spreading hate in your name?

yeah, asswhole, i'm talking to you, get off that golden thrown and come down here and let me teach you a lesson or ten about a thing called "morality." i know, a new concept for you, old man, but you can learn a few things from your creation. we have evolved a system of morality far, far better than the idiotic system you set in stone through your boy moses.

yeah, im talking to you, buster, you AND your boy jesus. put away that omnipotency and step down here and talk to me mano a mano and let;s see who has the goods.

see? that's how a man talked to another man who is clearly inferior in just about every way except for the massive power thing. god is that skinny kid in high school that found steroids and started hurting people.

either that or he's a figment of your limited imagination, if he were real, he would surely srike me dead as i typed this. come one! bring it, yahweh!

..... still here!

jesus christ, grow up, people!
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?



here's how i would start:

god? i have no desire to come into that house full of all the asswholes you had in that timesdaily forum! no thanks!

by the way, what in the hell where you thinking? why all the hate, you big jerk? why did you allow those boms to be dropped on japan? why all those starvng children in the Sudan while you let some old fart in california sit high and mighty spreading hate in your name?

yeah, asswhole, i'm talking to you, get off that golden thrown and come down here and let me teach you a lesson or ten about a thing called "morality." i know, a new concept for you, old man, but you can learn a few things from your creation. we have evolved a system of morality far, far better than the idiotic system you set in stone through your boy moses.

yeah, im talking to you, buster, you AND your boy jesus. put away that omnipotency and step down here and talk to me mano a mano and let;s see who has the goods.

see? that's how a man talked to another man who is clearly inferior in just about every way except for the massive power thing. god is that skinny kid in high school that found steroids and started hurting people.

either that or he's a figment of your limited imagination, if he were real, he would surely srike me dead as i typed this. come one! bring it, yahweh!

..... still here!

jesus christ, grow up, people!


or possibily he knows you are as significant as beetle piddle and aren't worth the waste of a smitening bolt.(pat.pend.)(tm)


OR..

the bible is wrong. God is the creator, but he's waiting until we finish with the of evoloution deal so we can move on to step 2.

he's not holding our hand through this. either we make it through on our own, or we blow ourselves to dust and he makes earth 2.0 from the ashes and tries again.

what i wonder is how many times he's had to restart already?

adam and eve were the first 2 people.... this time around. maybe last time it was romeo and ethyl the pirate's daughter. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?

here's how i would start:

god? i have no desire to come into that house full of all the asswholes you had in that timesdaily forum! no thanks!

Hi Uno,

Not a problem -- for me or for God. But, it WILL be an eternally painful problem for you.

Jesus Christ will just tell you, "No problem. You have made your choice. Take that path over there that leads to the Lake of Fire."

As all we Christian believers have been telling you for years -- God gave you and us "free will." He WILL NOT force you to do anything. If you prefer swimming in a Lake of Fire -- over Peace With God -- you have the freedom to make that decision, that eternal choice.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
As all we Christian believers have been telling you for years -- God gave you and us "free will." He WILL NOT force you to do anything. If you prefer swimming in a Lake of Fire -- over Peace With God -- you have the freedom to make that decision, that eternal choice.

Oh sheesh bill, do you even "hear" yourself?? Uh, what's it gonna be today-you gonna love me or fry? Your choice, wouldn't wanna force anyone. JEEEEZZZZZZ insane!
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
2. If YOU were to stand before God today and He asked YOU, "Why should I allow YOU to enter My heaven?" -- how would you answer Him?



here's how i would start:

god? i have no desire to come into that house full of all the asswholes you had in that timesdaily forum! no thanks!

by the way, what in the hell where you thinking? why all the hate, you big jerk? why did you allow those boms to be dropped on japan? why all those starvng children in the Sudan while you let some old fart in california sit high and mighty spreading hate in your name?

yeah, asswhole, i'm talking to you, get off that golden thrown and come down here and let me teach you a lesson or ten about a thing called "morality." i know, a new concept for you, old man, but you can learn a few things from your creation. we have evolved a system of morality far, far better than the idiotic system you set in stone through your boy moses.

yeah, im talking to you, buster, you AND your boy jesus. put away that omnipotency and step down here and talk to me mano a mano and let;s see who has the goods.

see? that's how a man talked to another man who is clearly inferior in just about every way except for the massive power thing. god is that skinny kid in high school that found steroids and started hurting people.

either that or he's a figment of your limited imagination, if he were real, he would surely srike me dead as i typed this. come one! bring it, yahweh!

..... still here!

jesus christ, grow up, people!
Drunk again.

He’ll get you one day uno when you least expect.

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