Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion "What's The Difference Between Fat And Gay Pastors?" I wrote, "Okay, start throwing the rocks. But, keep in mind that I am not telling you Bill Gray's word; I am telling you what the Word of God tells us. Take it or leave it; but, in leaving it -- a person is also leaving the God who authored it."

And, our new Forum Friend, ArtVandelay, responded, "I will leave it. You believe in a sky fairy who knows all, yet you refuse to accept reality here on earth. For example, there are people who are born gay. Also, there are non-religious people have have exceptional morals, but you refuse to accept reality. Christians claim to be caring and loving, yet they try and repress entire classes of people, and spew hate in the name of the sky fairy. Yes, I opt for no sky fairy."

Art, my Friend, be careful with your wording -- some folks may start to believe you are one of our old banned Forum Friends trying to sneak back in -- say Fish or Deep. In leaving God, I am not sure if you are declaring yourself to be an atheist, an agnostic, or just a vanilla flavored non-believer who does not want to become a Christian believer because you feel that you will have to give up your desired lifestyle. Which is it?

Yes, for a Christian believer, there has to be accountability to God -- and to your fellow Christ Followers. But, far from that being a burden, it is a blessing -- for along with that accountability goes the promise of Jesus Christ that we have eternal life, eternal security, in Him. That is what you are missing when you opt out of the Christian faith.

You tell me, "For example, there are people who are born gay."

Please give us a URL source showing that a "gay gene" has been found by science.

No, I am not talking about quoting an atheist psychiatrist, or a group of atheist psychiatrists, who declares the gay lifestyle to be normal; but, an actual scientist who declares and has proven that he/she HAS indeed found a "gay gene" and therefore proves beyond all doubt that folks are born gay.

Until then, I will stick to what God tells us in Genesis 1:24-31, the sixth day of Creation, when man is created in His image -- and He declares, "It is very good." On all the other five days of Creation, He only declares His work to be be "good." But, on the sixth day, when He creates man, He declares this work to be "very good."

Now, let's skip on over to Leviticus 18:22 where He declares the homosexual lifestyle to be "an abomination" and to Leviticus 20:13, where He declares the homosexual lifestyle to be "a detestable act."

Then, run on over to Romans 1:26 where He declares this lifestyle to be "unnatural" and in verse 27 where He calls it an "indecent act."

You get my drift. Why would God declare His creation of man to be "very good" -- and then, create some of them to be an abomination, detestable, unnatural, and indecent? Does this make sense? Who are we to believe -- God or the atheist psychiatrists? I will go with God.

Then you tell me, "Also, there are non-religious people (who) have have exceptional morals. . ."

Amen to that! There are many wonderful, exceptionally moral people who are not Christian believers. I have never questioned that. However, when we speak of being a moral person, we are not necessarily speaking of eternal salvation. A person can be very moral -- and still not have eternal salvation. So, the task of every Christian believer is to tell folks that they need Jesus Christ, they need to be born again (John 3:3), they need to, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- believe and receive (John 1:12) His "free gift" of eternal salvation.

How do they do this? Glad you asked. In Revelation 3:20, Jesus tells us, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

In this Scripture verse, Jesus Christ is telling all of us that He is standing at the door of our hearts, patiently waiting to be invited to come in and be our personal Lord and Savior. Believe it or not, there are things which Jesus Christ, God, cannot do. He cannot lie, He cannot make a mistake, He cannot change -- and, He cannot open the door of your heart and make you a Christian believer.

YOU have to do this yourself. This is the function of the gift of the "free will" which God gave to everyone in His creation. Each of us has the "free will" to choose to follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- or to deny Him. It is your choice -- but, YOU MUST make that choice for yourself. No one else can make it for you.

So, if YOU will open the door of your heart and invite Him in -- He will come in and dine with you. In the Jewish culture of Jesus' day; to dine with a person was the highest intimacy. One did not dine with just anyone; but, only with those who were very special. So, when YOU open the door and invite Him to come in -- He becomes the most special Person in your life -- your personal Lord and Savior.

Art, that should be our main goal in life; far above just living a moral life. However, if one is a born again Christian believer -- he/she will live a moral life. We call that the "fruit" of our salvation; that we strive to do the things which are pleasing to Jesus Christ. And, He did tell us, in Luke 10:27, to, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

That is all part of being a moral, born again Christian believer. For, we are told in James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." We become a Christian believer by opening the door of our hearts to Jesus Christ -- and then, the "fruit" of that salvation is good works, moral works.

If we do not have the good works, as we are told in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, our works will be revealed and tested by fire -- yet, the Christian believer, even if he has no real works (for we are told in Ephesians 2:8-9 that man is not saved by works, lest he boast) -- that believer is still saved, and has eternal life with God. No, my Friend, works, no matter how good -- cannot save a person.

Here it comes! Like rain surely will fall from a rain cloud! Go ahead and say it, "Okay, Bill, how about all those priest who molested young children? Are they moral?"

No, they are not! And, who says they are Christian believers? Just because a person is a priest; just because a person is a pastor; just because a person is a bishop or an elder -- does NOT make them Christian believers.

In the 1970s, Peter Jenkins and his wife, Barbara, walked across America and wrote the book, The Road Unseen, about this journey. In the book, Jenkins, then not a Christian believer, came upon a Revival Meeting in Mobile, Alabama. The speaker was James Robison, a pastor from Texas. In this excerpt from the book, Jenkins relates this experience with Robison:

James wiped his forehead and paced across the platform, "I remember an evangelist who walked up to a man in the congregation one night. The evangelist put his hand on the man's shoulder and asked him if he wanted to become a Christian. The man practically growled at the evangelist, 'I'm a deacon in this church!' And the evangelist calmly said, 'Don't let that stand in your way.'"

As most of the people laughed, he continued, "It's possible to be a deacon, an elder, a steward, a Sunday school teacher, and go to church all your life and not know the Lord."


A moral Christian believer may, and most often will, slip and fall into sin on occasion. However, if a person does this evil consistently -- it becomes their lifestyle. And, a Christian believer CANNOT live an immoral, indecent, abominable lifestyle. For that is living a lifestyle which God Himself has denounced.

So, Art, my Friend, I pray that you will reconsider your choice of opting out of Christianity. When Jesus Christ was resurrected, this assured that all humans will also be resurrected and live eternal lives -- some to eternal life with God, others to eternal self condemnation with Satan. The choice is yours.

And, my Friend, I pray that you will choose well. The brief life we have on this earth; the brief worldly pleasures and desires we can attain in this life -- are but a mere pittance when compared to our eternal life. Eternity is a very long time. Plan well for it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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People are most certainly not born gay. It is a lifestyle choice - one a lot of people fight and overcome. That is just some people wanting attention by saying they were born that way. Are people born prostitutes or drunk? No - unless they are withdrawing from alcohol the mother drank during her pregnancy.
quote:
Originally posted by BettyAnn:
People are most certainly not born gay. It is a lifestyle choice - one a lot of people fight and overcome.


So you fought lesbianism and overcame it? Heterosexuals should try to fight their heterosexuality for a week, stop being physically attracted to the opposite sex, just like that. You make it sound so easy, BettyAnn.
It is certainly not a choice. I am a straight man, and any truly straight man knows darn well it is not a choice. I feel no explanation is needed.

As for finding a "gay gene," DNA mapping is in its very early stages, and there are TONS of unknowns yet to be discovered! Also, who is to say it is a gene? If I like orange juice, does that mean there is a specific gene that tells me I like orange juice? What about basketball? Is there a golf gene?

Surely the "rate" of homosexuality, if you will, has always been the same throughout mankind. Only now, as society PROGRESSES (dirty word for you, I know), gays have much more support in coming out. So many "Christians" that have preached hate against gays, have been discovered to be gay themselves! Bill, are you gay? It is OK if you are, I really won't judge you as others on this forum will. Is it possible your priest inappropriately touched you as a kid in the name of the sky fairy? If so, that is a terrible, terrible thing, and I would fully understand your pent up aggression.

Its sad that the sky fairy teaches such hate, he had so much potential...
quote:
Originally posted by BettyAnn:
People are most certainly not born gay. It is a lifestyle choice - one a lot of people fight and overcome. That is just some people wanting attention by saying they were born that way. Are people born prostitutes or drunk? No - unless they are withdrawing from alcohol the mother drank during her pregnancy.


I would love to know how you know this? As a gay man, I feel that I was born gay. I had feelings of attraction to the same sex before I even understood what sex was. So tell me, I assume you are not gay, so how can you make such a statement when you haven't lived in the body of a gay person?

I also find it puzzling when people like you casually say it is a choice. If it was a choice, why on earth would someone choose it, knowing that there were people out there who condemned you on a daily basis, discriminate against you, threaten you with physical harm and attempt to make you feel like an outcast?

There are kids out there today who wrestle with these feelings and they are wondering why they are the way they are. I know because I experienced those feelings myself. I never said to myself one day, "oh I think I'll be gay" - what a ridiculous notion! I'm glad that today's kids are exposed to positive role models today because I didn't have them growing up.
Seems like this discussion has gone around a few times as well.

There are numerous studies of children as young as 3 or 4 showing homosexual tendencies. I cannot see how any one would say they 'choose' that life style.

As for judging them, bad form Mr Gray and the others. Judging is not up to any of us.
Doesn't Paul actually address the "effeminate", which is open to interpretation, and fornicators? Isn't that along the lines of his "vigorous athlete for Christ" terminology?

What if both guys are really butch? Is that an out? Like my old acquaintance Miss Jeff used to ask the local preacher, "I have never once done it lying down! So I reckon I am safe!"
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
No they are not, Why would God make a Person Homosexual and then send him to Hell for being that way? 1st Corinthians Chapter six and Verse nine tells you who will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and Homosexuals are included.


A book written by Paul, I'm told, not God. And I've heard that Paul had issues with gays just like Bill Gray. Maybe he was a closet case too.
Before you say 'put up or shut up' Mr Gray, this is one such study, not of children but adults.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8332896

Science. 1993 Jul 16;261(5119):321-7.
A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation.

Hamer DH, Hu S, Magnuson VL, Hu N, Pattatucci AM.

Laboratory of Biochemistry, National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892.

Comment in:

* Science. 1993 Dec 24;262(5142):2063-5.
* Science. 1993 Sep 3;261(5126):1257; author reply 1259.
* Science. 1993 Jul 16;261(5119):291-2.
* Science. 1993 Sep 3;261(5126):1258-9.

Abstract

The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

PMID: 8332896 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
No gays in heaven! How non-stylish a place that will be. Who will dance with the plus sized single gals on the clouds? How can they get a good heavenly rugby scrum? Will we be having to watch mean girls compete in every single version of every episode of Heavenly Top Designer? What about all the girls gym teachers? Hellbound, too, I gather.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
No gays in heaven! How non-stylish a place that will be. Who will dance with the plus sized single gals on the clouds? How can they get a good heavenly rugby scrum? Will we be having to watch mean girls compete in every single version of every episode of Heavenly Top Designer? What about all the girls gym teachers? Hellbound, too, I gather.

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Originally posted by Mrs. Carl Brutananadilewski:
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Originally posted by BettyAnn:
People are most certainly not born gay. It is a lifestyle choice - one a lot of people fight and overcome.


So you fought lesbianism and overcame it? Heterosexuals should try to fight their heterosexuality for a week, stop being physically attracted to the opposite sex, just like that. You make it sound so easy, BettyAnn.


I easily overcame my heterosexuality the week my wife had flu accompanied by projectile vomiting every 30 minutes, but it did come back right after that.
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Originally posted by Infomercial:
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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Secret video of Bill's church initiation ceremony leaked!
Link

You mean...they're...one cuppers.

Hi Info,

I suppose that is what Neal/Aude was implying. But, in our church we use small single cups for our communion grape juice -- much more sanitary. Especially in the flu season.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Go ahead, be gay or homosexual if you desire. I know a man today who has overcome homosexuality. He is a man of God. God can deliver you from homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, prostitution and all other off color desires.

Any more questions? I refer you to the B-I-B-L-E. That is the book for me and YOU!
quote:
Originally posted by BettyAnn:
Go ahead, be gay or homosexual if you desire. I know a man today who has overcome homosexuality. He is a man of God. God can deliver you from homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, prostitution and all other off color desires.

Any more questions? I refer you to the B-I-B-L-E. That is the book for me and YOU!


Can the sky fairy help you overcome your hatred and bigotry?
quote:
Go ahead, be gay or homosexual if you desire. I know a man today who has overcome homosexuality. He is a man of God. God can deliver you from homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, prostitution and all other off color desires.


That man did not overcome homosexuality, you don't over come something you are born with, something so hard wired into you at a young age, which homosexual thoughts and desires are. This man has just been socially pressured by a church group to fit into their social norm of heterosexuality. Its just a matter or time before his natural urges to be with another man over comes him and he goes back to where he feels comfortable. If he was smart he would quit lying to himself, drop that church group and be with people who support his gay lifestyle. The bible can't fix gay, its impossible, and homosexual isn't an off color desire, its a blessing you are born with and you need to embrace it instead of fight it.

In the next 10 years scientists are going to prove that homosexuality is something genetic and not a choice. I can't wait until the day they find this so the churches will possibly quit trying to "fix" people who aren't messed up to begin with.
Paul seemed to have a problem with the gays. Evidently, George and John did not, and Ringo was undecided. Epstein never cared one way or another.

Come now Betty Bill, how do you know he was "delivered" maybe he just says he was to get saps like you to think he can "heal." Did you ever witness him performing an act of the "Love that Dares Not Speak Its Name"? Where is the video? Where is the gay certificate? Not some sanitized "certificate of gayness," rather the original gay certificate? They are issued at an office in Soho, City of Westminster, London, UK.
quote:
Originally posted by ArtVandelay:
quote:
Originally posted by BettyAnn:
Go ahead, be gay or homosexual if you desire. I know a man today who has overcome homosexuality. He is a man of God. God can deliver you from homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, prostitution and all other off color desires.

Any more questions? I refer you to the B-I-B-L-E. That is the book for me and YOU!

Can the sky fairy help you overcome your hatred and bigotry?

Hi Art,

I was going to say that it has not helped you very much. But, then, I realized that you have not truly been introduced to the Bible -- nor to its Author, God.

Better get this fixed before it is too late! That would be like going to the dentist AFTER all your teeth have fallen out.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Go see a shrink you silly pompous twit, Bill Gray. You are a demented old fool and full of crap from the moment you wake up until you fall asleep. Either that or you are a cult member.

Repent and seek help.

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Originally posted by Sofa King:
Here is a question that Bill will not answer: Bill, were your born heterosexual (assuming you are, that is). If so, could you "choose" be become gay?

Hi Sofa,

Since this is an issue of great importance to many people -- I have chosen to present my answer in a new discussion. Check out "Could I Have Chosen To Be Homosexual?"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Since this is an issue of great importance to many people



Actually, I daresay it is not. It might be to you for your attraction to be able to type the word "gay" and not be suspect of such yourself.

Do you like Liberace and Ethel Merman? Finish the verse, "Clang, clang, clang went the trolly --- ---- ---- went the ----." Do you subscribe to Men's Fitness? Who was the best Mama Rose? Bette, Patti, Bernadette or Tyne?

If you can answer 3 out of these you may win a free vacation to Palm Springs and Fort Lauderdale.
Hi Neal/Aude,

Do you ramble and chatter just to hear yourself make noise -- or are you so lonely that you must write inane tripe just to be noticed?

My Friend, why not wait until you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion before jumping in with all four feet.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
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Since this is an issue of great importance to many people



Actually, I daresay it is not. It might be to you for your attraction to be able to type the word "gay" and not be suspect of such yourself.

Do you like Liberace and Ethel Merman? Finish the verse, "Clang, clang, clang went the trolly --- ---- ---- went the ----." Do you subscribe to Men's Fitness? Who was the best Mama Rose? Bette, Patti, Bernadette or Tyne?

If you can answer 3 out of these you may win a free vacation to Palm Springs and Fort Lauderdale.


1 ding ding ding
2 no
3 Bernadette

/whew. missed it by >< that much.
/leans over shoulder and yells " it's ok hunny.. i don't have to be gay. turn off the strisand music, and toss that copy of Yentl.

( sorry aude.. i'm acctually with you on this, but that tickled the snot outta me Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Neal/Aude,

Do you ramble and chatter just to hear yourself make noise -- or are you so lonely that you must write inane tripe just to be noticed?

My Friend, why not wait until you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion before jumping in with all four feet.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


Statements that could easily be applied to yourself. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Neal/Aude,

Do you ramble and chatter just to hear yourself make noise -- or are you so lonely that you must write inane tripe just to be noticed?

My Friend, why not wait until you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion before jumping in with all four feet.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill




Sorry...that was a little harsh. Its an open forum and its called opinions. If you dont agree or you think that someone is just talking to talk...who cares! They are not hurting you...so dont hurt them with your words.

See...just my opinion. <--I might get a forum post back for my opinion now...which is fine!
Tripe! People have gone to war for less than the Patti v. Bernadette v. Ethel v. Tyne v. Bette issue! It is a matter of literal live and death, or at least a full head of hair and full set of teeth to many and completely germane to the religious forum. If nonstop rants on Tribulation and Rapture and The Gays, repeated over and over and never settled, then why not who was the best Mama Rose, I pose. After, she dreamed a dream. She did it for Billy. And if it wasn't for she, then where would you be Mr. Billy G.?


We still await with all the pleasure of hearing paint dry the Mens Health answer, as well as that regarding the late of over the top memory Liberace and Merman.
quote:
Originally posted by IamShouting!:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Neal/Aude,

Do you ramble and chatter just to hear yourself make noise -- or are you so lonely that you must write inane tripe just to be noticed?

My Friend, why not wait until you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion before jumping in with all four feet.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Sorry...that was a little harsh. Its an open forum and its called opinions. If you don't agree or you think that someone is just talking to talk...who cares! They are not hurting you...so don't hurt them with your words.

See...just my opinion. <--I might get a forum post back for my opinion now...which is fine!

Hi Shouting,

Actually, I would say that what I have written approaches the truth; rather than being harsh. Have you truly read most of what Neal has posted for the past three years? He seems to get more vehement and more nasty as each day passes.

Perhaps you have heard the story of the City Slicker who came to the Farmer to buy a mule. Farmer told him, "This mule is very gentle. You have to be gentle with him."

So, City Slicker pays for the mule and then starts to lead him away. Mule stands firmly and refuses to budge, no matter how hard City Slicker pulls on the rein.

Farmer walks over, picks up a 2X4 and hits Mule square on the forehead -- and Mule starts moving. City Slicker is aghast, "You told me to be gentle with the mule. Now, you hit him with a board!"

Farmer, matter of factly, replied, "Yep. But, first you have to get his attention."

Shouting, for three years I have been trying to get Neal's attention -- asking him, many times, if we can have civil dialogues without name calling and denigrating what others believe. Neal pays no attention and continues to cast his anger and hatred upon all who do not worship EXACTLY as he does.

So, I picked up my 2X4 and tried, once again, to get Neal's attention. I apologize to you if this offends you. However, we do need to to get his attention. It is one thing to have differences of opinion. It is quite another thing to attack another because he does not agree with your opinion. And, no, I am not attacking Neal -- only trying to get his attention.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by IamShouting!:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Neal/Aude,

Do you ramble and chatter just to hear yourself make noise -- or are you so lonely that you must write inane tripe just to be noticed?

My Friend, why not wait until you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion before jumping in with all four feet.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Sorry...that was a little harsh. Its an open forum and its called opinions. If you don't agree or you think that someone is just talking to talk...who cares! They are not hurting you...so don't hurt them with your words.

See...just my opinion. <--I might get a forum post back for my opinion now...which is fine!

Hi Shouting,

Actually, I would say that what I have written approaches the truth; rather than being harsh. Have you truly read most of what Neal has posted for the past three years? He seems to get more vehement and more nasty as each day passes.

Perhaps you have heard the story of the City Slicker who came to the Farmer to buy a mule. Farmer told him, "This mule is very gentle. You have to be gentle with him."

So, City Slicker pays for the mule and then starts to lead him away. Mule stands firmly and refuses to budge, no matter how hard City Slicker pulls on the rein.

Farmer walks over, picks up a 2X4 and hits Mule square on the forehead -- and Mule starts moving. City Slicker is aghast, "You told me to be gentle with the mule. Now, you hit him with a board!"

Farmer, matter of factly, replied, "Yep. But, first you have to get his attention."

Shouting, for three years I have been trying to get Neal's attention -- asking him, many times, if we can have civil dialogues without name calling and denigrating what others believe. Neal pays no attention and continues to cast his anger and hatred upon all who do not worship EXACTLY as he does.

So, I picked up my 2X4 and tried, once again, to get Neal's attention. I apologize to you if this offends you. However, we do need to to get his attention. It is one thing to have differences of opinion. It is quite another thing to attack another because he does not agree with your opinion. And, no, I am not attacking Neal -- only trying to get his attention.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




completely understand what you are saying, however, making comments the way you do is not the best approach on getting someones attention. I mean...really...you said "I picked up my 2x4 again"....really!?!?! How is that calm and attention getting? I personally just think that you come across extremely hard; which is not necessarily a bad thing but its not a good thing either.

Just understand that people do have opinions and thats ok. Make a point, stay calm, keep your hard core opinions to yourself, and do what you say you do...just pray.
Thats it.
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Originally posted by IamShouting!:
I completely understand what you are saying, however, making comments the way you do is not the best approach on getting someone's attention. I mean...really...you said "I picked up my 2x4 again"....really!?!?! How is that calm and attention getting? I personally just think that you come across extremely hard; which is not necessarily a bad thing but its not a good thing either.

Just understand that people do have opinions and that's ok. Make a point, stay calm, keep your hard core opinions to yourself, and do what you say you do...just pray. That's it.

Hi Shouting,

After appealing in many ways, many times, for Neal to join us in "civil" discussions -- I have chosen to take the 2X4 approach. As I said, I am sorry if this offends you.

Several times in past years, I saw my senior pastor, a man who exemplifies Christian love -- ask people to leave our church. At first, I wondered if he were being too harsh. But, in hindsight, I saw that he was right.

Matthew 18:15-17 tells us that if a brother sins -- go and reprove him privately. If he will not hear you; take several mature elders with you to talk with him. If he still will not listen, take him before the church body. And, if he still refuses to listen -- ask him to leave the fellowship. This is what my pastor did.

And, basically, this is my approach with Neal. I sent him PMs long ago, asking that we have civil dialogues. His hateful diatribes continued. I have asked him in the public Forum if can please have civil dialogues. Still he spews hatred for all who do not worship exactly as he does. Several other Forum members have called him on his vehement comments. And, the only effect -- is that he gets more hateful, more vehement, more full of anger. How can there be any civil dialogue when one person insists upon name calling and hatred?

Shouting, you mentioned in another post that it bothered you that some folks in church made remarks about the clothes you choose to wear to church. How would you handle it if these people began to shout at you, reviling you in front of all the church? This is basically what Neal does to anyone who worships differently than him. How would you suggest we handle his insults, anger, and hatred?

Even Jesus got angry at the money changers in the Temple. How do you suppose He would handle one who spews anger and hatred to others?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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