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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Please respond, Bill Gray" begun by DHS -- Rram declares, "Satan does not exist. . . God on the other hand does exist."

And, Chick asks, "If Satan doesn't exist, why is he mentioned in the Bible? I wouldn't call myself an atheist...yet...I'm well confused by all of it."

Chick, Satan does indeed exist! We find in the Bible that when God created the angels, there were at least three archangels: Michael, the warrior angelic leader; Gabriel, the messenger; and Lucifer, the light bearer. And, I am led to believe that Lucifer was the highest in rank, for his name Lucifer, the Greek word heylel , means: light-bearer, shining one, morning star.

In Ezekiel 28:14-17, God, speaking through the prophet Ezekiel, tells Satan, "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you."

Yet, the angels, like we humans, were created with the gift of "free will." And, we are told in Isaiah 14 that Lucifer used his God-given gift of "free will" to turn against God. Lucifer, like many mortals, became a slave to his desire to be his own god, to be equal or greater than God. Now, you would think that an archangel as intelligent as Lucifer would know better. But, obviously intelligence does not matter when one is controlled by desire; as was Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:12-15, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit."

In Revelation 12:3-5, we are told more about Satan, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon (Satan) having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son (the Messiah, Jesus Christ), a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

We are told that when Satan rebelled against God, he lured one third of the angels in heaven into following him in his rebellion against God. So, these angels obviously had the gift of "free will" also. Their number had to be in the billions, the angelic beings lured from God and lured into following Satan -- through their own free will.

Lucifer/Satan, who personally stood at the throne of God, sort of reminds me of most non-believers, i.e., they know He is the preexisting God, the Almighty -- yet, they still want to be their own gods. And, to accomplish this, many will attempt to deny that God exists (atheists) or question if God exists (agnostics) -- and many, like Richard Dawkins, et al, will work hard to disprove God.

Yet, even Dawkins, when push comes to shove, says, in his many bus signs posted around the world: "GOD PROBABLY DOES NOT EXIST." Do you wonder why this devout atheist did not write on his bus signs: GOD DOES NOT EXIST -- isn't Dawkins "really" sure?

Lucifer/Satan, even though he personally stood beside God in heaven, did a similar thing -- for we are told in Revelation 12 that "And the dragon stood before the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child (Jesus Christ)."

Satan, who had been an archangel, who had stood beside the throne of God -- who knows that Jesus is God the Son, preexisting deity -- yet, in his arrogance and strong desire to be like God; he tries to destroy Jesus Christ. Who can destroy the preexisting, almighty God? But, that is the level of arrogance and self-inflicted delusion spiritual blindness will bring upon anyone who denies God.

This woman in this verse is the nation Israel who was about to give birth to the Messiah, Jesus Christ. And, Satan, using the evil King Herod, attempted to destroy the infant, Jesus. Satan is a great example of personal arrogance overwhelming intelligence and knowledge.

And, the highly intelligent, but extremely arrogant Satan even attempted to tempt the adult Jesus Christ, as we are told in Matthew 4:1, "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."

In Revelation 12:5, we read, "And she (Israel) gave birth to a son (Jesus Christ), a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

In this one verse, we are given the full Gospel: Jesus Christ born a Jew, crucified, resurrected -- and "caught up to God and to His throne." By the way, the phrase "caught up" used here for the ascension of Jesus Christ after His resurrection is the same Greek word harpazo used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which speaks of our ascension, or rapture, when Christ returns for us.

Many times the New Testament speaks of Satan.

Luke 10:18, "And He (Jesus) said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.'"

John 12:31, "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world (Satan) will be cast out."

John 16:11, "And concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world (Satan) has been judged."

Revelation 9:1-3, "Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven (Lucifer/Satan) which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Revelation 12:7-9, "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon (Satan). The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

So, yes, Rram and Chick, Satan is indeed real. He is taught throughout the Bible -- and he has billions of fallen angels, demonic spirits, working with him to lure as many people as possible away from God. And, one of their strategies is to convince people that Satan and hell are not real; but, only myths made up to scare people.

Another strategy Satan uses to lure people into his domain -- is to convince people that God does not exist. And, he has many, many mortals living on earth who are working with him in this pursuit. I would suggest the Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, et al, are part of his first current string team.

Yet, as long as one still has breath in this mortal body -- there is still time to switch teams and get on the Winning Team -- truly the ultimate Dream Team. God is the Team Owner, Jesus Christ is the General Manager, the Holy Spirit is the Coach -- and we have team members which will put Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron to shame. Why not join the Winning Team today? He is just waiting for YOU to open the door of your heart and invite Him to come in (Revelation 3:20).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Only thing we have agreed on, Bill.

Heaven and Hell

God and Satan

Matched sets.

Hi B,

It is nice to reach accord once in a while. Yet, I will modify your statement just a wee bit. I realize the point you are making about the matched sets.

But, so that we do not confuse any readers -- God and Satan are not a matched set. God is the eternally preexisting almighty God -- and Satan is a created being.

No one created God; He is preexisting.

However, God did create Satan, who was created in an exalted position -- but, then fell from grace.

The Creator and the created can never be equal -- which would be implied if we call them a matched set.

Just a point of clarification so that we do not confuse any Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Please respond, Bill Gray" begun by DHS -- Rram declares, "Satan does not exist. . . God on the other hand does exist."

And, Chick asks, "If Satan doesn't exist, why is he mentioned in the Bible? I wouldn't call myself an atheist...yet...I'm well confused by all of it."

Chick, Satan does indeed exist!
Bill


I don't know why you start discussions of another topic when you could just post in the topic you're starting a new one about.

I didn't read past your thread of what I quoted above.
This is just to let you know that my question to Rram was meant sarcastically.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I'll concede the clarification. Perhaps I should have just said 'sets'.

Hi B,

Thank you for not taking offense -- because none was intended. We should always be able to discuss issues like this without offense or animosity. Agree, or agree to disagree, but, without division. That is the Christian way.

Once again, thank you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Please respond, Bill Gray" begun by DHS -- Rram declares, "Satan does not exist. . . God on the other hand does exist."

And, Chick asks, "If Satan doesn't exist, why is he mentioned in the Bible? I wouldn't call myself an atheist...yet...I'm well confused by all of it."

Chick, Satan does indeed exist!

I don't know why you start discussions of another topic when you could just post in the topic you're starting a new one about. I didn't read past your thread of what I quoted above. This is just to let you know that my question to Rram was meant sarcastically.

Hi Chick,

Why do I often start a new discussion instead of staying on the previous one? Well, if you will look at that discussion -- you will see that it as grown to seven pages already. Whenever a discussion has gone on that long -- it has typically deteriorated to a "spitting contest." Since I do not like "spitting contests" -- I will usually walk away and start a new discussion.

However, the main reason I most often do it is that my main target audience is not the handful of regulars who "live and breath" only for "spitting contests" -- but, the many sincere readers who most often do not post. If a subject is important enough for me to spend an hour writing -- to me it is important enough for me to put it where it will get the most readership, i.e, a new discussion.

You tell me you were being sarcastic. That is okay. I will admit that often with some folks it is difficult to discern who is being sincere and who is trying to be cute or sarcastic. But, that is no problem -- for your question, sarcastic or sincere -- served as a platform to allow me to explain more about Satan, salvation, and hell. For that, I thank you.

And, even though you do not have the attention span to read more than the first few sentences -- God has used you to allow me to share with others. Some may read only a portion; some will read all -- but, God willing, those who are sincerely seeking to better understand God's Word may find some of what they need in my writings. Once again, I thank you -- and I am sure He thanks you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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From Bill's post above:

"Isaiah 14:12-15, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit."

Ye do err egregiously, Bill, in associating Lucifer with Satan. A little research will show you that the overwhelming weight of Biblical scholarship, liberal and conservative, interprets Lucifer, in Isaiah's prophecy, as the King of Babylon.

I will not post multiple references to support this, since they are very easily accessed online. Here is one to chew on, though, so that I will not be accused of posting only my own opinions:

http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Please respond, Bill Gray" begun by DHS -- Rram declares, "Satan does not exist. . . God on the other hand does exist."

And, Chick asks, "If Satan doesn't exist, why is he mentioned in the Bible? I wouldn't call myself an atheist...yet...I'm well confused by all of it."

Chick, Satan does indeed exist!

I don't know why you start discussions of another topic when you could just post in the topic you're starting a new one about. I didn't read past your thread of what I quoted above. This is just to let you know that my question to Rram was meant sarcastically.

Hi Chick,

Why do I often start a new discussion instead of staying on the previous one? Well, if you will look at that discussion -- you will see that it as grown to seven pages already. Whenever a discussion has gone on that long -- it has typically deteriorated to a "spitting contest." Since I do not like "spitting contests" -- I will usually walk away and start a new discussion.

However, the main reason I most often do it is that my main target audience is not the handful of regulars who "live and breath" only for "spitting contests" -- but, the many sincere readers who most often do not post. If a subject is important enough for me to spend an hour writing -- to me it is important enough for me to put it where it will get the most readership, i.e, a new discussion.

You tell me you were being sarcastic. That is okay. I will admit that often with some folks it is difficult to discern who is being sincere and who is trying to be cute or sarcastic. But, that is no problem -- for your question, sarcastic or sincere -- served as a platform to allow me to explain more about Satan, salvation, and hell. For that, I thank you.

And, even though you do not have the attention span to read more than the first few sentences -- God has used you to allow me to share with others. Some may read only a portion; some will read all -- but, God willing, those who are sincerely seeking to better understand God's Word may find some of what they need in my writings. Once again, I thank you -- and I am sure He thanks you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


DEFINITION of "spitting contest," as the term is employed by Bill Gray:

spitting contest: that point in a discussion when the shabby arguments of Bill Gray have been devastated by the clear logic and un-rebuttable truth posted by others and Bill decides it is time to denote the situation as a "spitting contest" and "get out of Dodge."
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Why do I often start a new discussion instead of staying on the previous one? Well, if you will look at that discussion -- you will see that it as grown to seven pages already. Whenever a discussion has gone on that long -- it has typically deteriorated to a "spitting contest." Since I do not like "spitting contests" -- I will usually walk away and start a new discussion.

However, the main reason I most often do it is that my main target audience is not the handful of regulars who "live and breath" only for "spitting contests" -- but, the many sincere readers who most often do not post.

You tell me you were being sarcastic. That is okay, your question, sarcastic or sincere -- served as a platform to allow me to explain more about Satan, salvation, and hell. For that, I thank you.

And, even though you do not have the attention span to read more than the first few sentences -- God has used you to allow me to share with others. Once again, I thank you -- and I am sure He thanks you
Bill


And this one won’t turn into a “spitting contest” as you so rudely name it? If any topics turn into a spitting contest, it’s usually because of your attitude that turns it that way.

Those sincere readers who do not post that you speak of? I’ve heard from some of them…..they don’t like you very much.

Don’t blame me as the reason for a platform to allow you anything. Plain & simple, it’s your ego & your need to preach.

There’s nothing wrong with my attention span. I choose not to read your post, as do others. My reason is that they’re boring, judgmental, & you say the same thing over & over.

BTW, God doesn’t thank me for anything. He’s too busy writing in his book, making notes for those of us that haven’t “walked the line”.
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:
Bro. Bill,

Are you claiming to believe in a devil himself?
I thought you believed in God. Believing a devil makes no sense.

Hi Rram,

Why not? If God tells us that Satan/Lucifer/Devil, et al, is real -- why should we doubt His word?

As B50 said, Heaven and Hell are real. So why not Satan?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi HenHouse,

Well, it could be answered yes or no. However, I have given my reasons for believing they are real -- and I would expect anyone who does answer will have a reason why he/she believes yes or no.

However, a yes or no answer is acceptable also; just not as interesting.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
At high noon today if Bill said the sun was shining semi would say that it was so dark outside you could not see your hand in front of your face.


Why do you say that? Does Bill not begin his topics with a question? Henhouse answered the question with a yes or no.
Bill himself said a yes/no answer is not as interesting.

Most people on this forum disagree with Bill, why decide to pick on me this morning? Confused
Hey, SR, I call foul.
People don't disagree with Bill for the sake of being contrary.
We disagree with him, because we believe what he is saying to be false teaching at times.
It's called a debate, or discussion.
You don't see it because you agree with everything that comes from his mouth. Not everyone does.
quote:
Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
VP, I do not agree with everything Bill posts. I just found it comical that for once several did agree but yet semi did not.


Just exactly what is it that I didn't agree with?
Have I missed something? Confused

The last thing I posted was about your sarcastic remark to which you never answered.

"Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
At high noon today if Bill said the sun was shining semi would say that it was so dark outside you could not see your hand in front of your face".
quote:
Posted 10 August 2010 07:04 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Please respond, Bill Gray" begun by DHS -- Rram declares, "Satan does not exist. . . God on the other hand does exist."

And, Chick asks, "If Satan doesn't exist, why is he mentioned in the Bible? I wouldn't call myself an atheist...yet...I'm well confused by all of it."

Chick, Satan does indeed exist!


I don't know why you start discussions of another topic when you could just post in the topic you're starting a new one about. I didn't read past your thread of what I quoted above. This is just to let you know that my question to Rram was meant sarcastically.


Hi Chick,

Why do I often start a new discussion instead of staying on the previous one? Well, if you will look at that discussion -- you will see that it as grown to seven pages already. Whenever a discussion has gone on that long -- it has typically deteriorated to a "spitting contest." Since I do not like "spitting contests" -- I will usually walk away and start a new discussion.

However, the main reason I most often do it is that my main target audience is not the handful of regulars who "live and breath" only for "spitting contests" -- but, the many sincere readers who most often do not post. If a subject is important enough for me to spend an hour writing -- to me it is important enough for me to put it where it will get the most readership, i.e, a new discussion.

You tell me you were being sarcastic. That is okay. I will admit that often with some folks it is difficult to discern who is being sincere and who is trying to be cute or sarcastic. But, that is no problem -- for your question, sarcastic or sincere -- served as a platform to allow me to explain more about Satan, salvation, and hell. For that, I thank you.

And, even though you do not have the attention span to read more than the first few sentences -- God has used you to allow me to share with others. Some may read only a portion; some will read all -- but, God willing, those who are sincerely seeking to better understand God's Word may find some of what they need in my writings. Once again, I thank you -- and I am sure He thanks you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



DEFINITION of "spitting contest," as the term is employed by Bill Gray:

spitting contest: that point in a discussion when the shabby arguments of Bill Gray have been devastated by the clear logic and un-rebuttable truth posted by others and Bill decides it is time to denote the situation as a "spitting contest" and "get out of Dodge."

Posts: 4409 | Registered: 01


Billy Goat , why do you never respond ti beternu"s posts at least not the way one should?
He make some really good points, but you seem to dismiss them?
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
Billy Goat , why do you never respond ti beternu"s posts at least not the way one should?
He make some really good points, but you seem to dismiss them?


LIFE WOULDN'T BE FUN IF I DID WHAT YOU EXPECT ALL THE TIME! - JUST THINKING OF YOU!


Why are you shouting at me? I only asked you a simple question.
However it does seem that when Beternu makes a very good point,that's about the time when you refer to the topic becoming a "spitting contest", and start another topic.
It's happened more than once.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
From Bill's post above:

"Isaiah 14:12-15, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit."

Ye do err egregiously, Bill, in associating Lucifer with Satan. A little research will show you that the overwhelming weight of Biblical scholarship, liberal and conservative, interprets Lucifer, in Isaiah's prophecy, as the King of Babylon.

Hi Beter,

Just one question for you: How did the King of Babylon get into heaven -- so that he could "fall from heaven"?

Yet, we have many Biblical references of Satan being in heaven. My vote is still for Satan/Lucifer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Show us SCRIPTURE that states Lucifer is another name for Satan. The word lucifer isn't even capitalized in the Bible. Lucifer is a word meaning "bringer of light", which is what the king of Babylon considered himself.

Hi O,

When was the King of Babylon in heaven -- to be able to fall from heaven?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The request was: Show us SCRIPTURE that states Lucifer is another name for Satan not from where did Satan fall.

No, my Friend,

The original question was to Beter:

+++++++++++++++++++++

Just one question for you: How did the King of Babylon get into heaven -- so that he could "fall from heaven"?

Yet, we have many Biblical references of Satan being in heaven. My vote is still for Satan/Lucifer.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Care to answer it?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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