Are Satan And Hell Real?

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Originally posted by vplee123:

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
So, B50, are you New Age or not? Are you Wiccan (an offshoot of New Age) or not? Or are you Christian? Can you see how you have us all confused? First, you tell us that you are New Age/Wiccan/Christian -- and when I call you on this discrepancy -- you say you were only kidding. Now, you come back with more New Age religion propaganda. So, please tell us which camp you stand in -- Christian or World Religions?

All of whom? I wasn't confused...

NOW, THAT IS DEBATABLE! - BUT, GLAD YOU READ MY WRITINGS!

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Originally posted by b50m:
That's why I keep looking. And that's why I say the Bible of today, especially the KJV, is not inerrant.

When God inspired the writers yes, after those original documents, no.

Learning is always fascinating.

Thank you b50m for the interesting links. I appreciate that you gave articles from various religions to review.

You are welcome, Willow.

It is so fascinating that all the different faiths all seem to revolve around the same basic beliefs.

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Can you see how you have us all confused?

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Originally posted by vplee123:
All of whom?
I wasn't confused...

I wasn't confused either but evidently Bill is easily confused.

Bill since I have been semi-out-of-it for the last couple of days refresh my memory.
Since lucifer was only mention once in the Bible, and the definition of that is "light bearer" or something to do with light. The only thing that ties the name lucifer with that of Satan is tradition.
Is that not the thing you beat vlpee up on was adhering to the traditions of men rather that the Word of our God?
Not that if makes a difference just what I want to call the Devil. Satan, The Boogie Man The Fallen Angel or my mother-in-law.

mother-in-law?

Ouch

Just a joke, I have the best in-laws a man could ever dream of.If they were looking for a Christian wife just like their mother or maybe now-a-days their Grandmother used to be.
Example- before my wife went to work this afternoon she cooked creamed corn,butter beans, mac&cheese and a pan of cornbread to drop off at a neighbors house that had lost a loved one. Now is that what most people see today? I should add that she is only in her 30's. Now I can say that her mother raised her right. And I am the one of the luckiest men on this earth to be able to call her my wife.
Did I add she thinks I'm sexy? I can't hold her eyesight against her.

Sweet lady max. Give her an extra hug when she gets in.

I forgot to add that she's a good deer hunter as well.

Hey, I know I'm leaning quite heavily on Wiki these days, but it's fairly reliable. Not scholarly reliable, but not bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

What wicked religion could associate evil with the beautiful morning star? What twisted, ignorant, primitive superstition could confuse a rather simple astronomical fact with the fairy tale of a "fallen angel"?

You have three guesses.

If you have read the whole thread, you will find that the word 'lucifer' was only used one time in the KJV, and that it's meaning in that passage was probably misinterpreted.
Or at least that's one explanation.

b,

Whatcha wanna bet Lucifer was a pagan demigod who was co-opted into Christianity?

I haven't googled him farther than Wiki.

Bet ya a nickel.

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Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
b,

Whatcha wanna bet Lucifer was a pagan demigod who was co-opted into Christianity?

I haven't googled him farther than Wiki.

Bet ya a nickel.

althought many others things were co-opted, i think he(Lucy) wasn't,
BUT. as i'm just learning about this idea, i can hardly call myself an expert on the subject

If it were more than a nickel I wouldn't take the bet. But I'd pay the nickel for you to show it BJBG.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
If you have read the whole thread, you will find that the word 'lucifer' was only used one time in the KJV, and that it's meaning in that passage was probably misinterpreted. Or at least that's one explanation.

Hi B50,

No, my Friend, NOT just in the KJV -- but, in many translations. So, since we agree that the King of Babylon has never been in heaven to be tossed out; it is obvious that Isaiah 14:12 is speaking of Lucifer/Satan. Where do we find Lucifer in Scripture?

Well, we can visit different translations of Isaiah 14:12 and there we find many which reference Lucifer. And, by the way, of the scrolls found in the Qumran Caves -- the most complete manuscript found was Isaiah. Guess what? The Isaiah found in the Qumran Caves is virtually identical to the Isaiah we read today in our Bibles. The Essenes gave us Lucifer; so, I will agree with them.

Isaiah 14:12 (kjv), "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (nkjv), "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (rvr), "¡Cómo caíste del cielo, oh Lucero, hijo de la mañana! Cortado fuiste por tierra, tú que debilitabas a las naciones."

Isaiah 14:12 (dby), "How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (web), "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (vul) - "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

3 When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: "How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! 5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, 6 that smote the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. 7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. 8 The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, 'Since you were laid low, no hewer comes up against us.' 9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will speak and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!' 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering. 12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?' 18 All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; 19 but you are cast out, away from your sepulchre, like a loathed untimely birth, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the Pit, like a dead body trodden under foot. 20 You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people. "May the descendants of evildoers nevermore be named! 21 Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers, lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the face of the world with cities." 22 "I will rise up against them," says the LORD of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, offspring and posterity, says the LORD. 23 And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction, says the LORD of hosts."

Why in the world would there be ONE sentence about Satan in the middle of a long passage about the king of Babylon??!!??

Obviously, because it does not refer to Satan.

I love the way this guy handles it:


http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

So, how did we get from Venus, the morning star, to Lucifer being associated with the devil, especially since that term is used in positive ways even in the New Testament? Well, if we begin with some New Testament passages and incorrectly assume that using the New Testament along with a lot of accumulated tradition is the best way to interpret the Old Testament, then add some of our assumptions, it is not a long trip at all.

In 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul writes about false apostles:

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

And in Luke 10:18-19, at the return of the 70 as they comment on their success, Jesus says:

And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you."

So, without ever stopping to examine either of those passages to see what was being said in them, and what was meant by the references, we could conclude that the devil/the satan is somehow associated with light and the sky.

If we then add the passage from Revelation 12 about the devil/satan/red dragon/serpent the symbols begin to run together, again before we have done any real study on any of these passages separately to see what each of them is saying. In Revelation 12 the red dragon with seven heads appears in the sky, and his tail sweeps down a third of the stars to earth, and is then later cast down to the earth along with his angels. Of course, at this point, a great many assumptions are introduced into the reading even of the Revelation passage, even though this is obviously extremely figurative language; we just assume what it means.

By adding these three passages together without regard to context, and read them as if they were all speaking in the same way about the same thing to make the same point, we can conclude that we have here a jigsaw picture of a long ago historical event described in great detail (but of course we have to put the pieces together from various bits scattered through literature written 800 years apart!).

Then, if we take that assumption about the meaning of all these texts, and the assumption that adding texts together is the way to understand them (a drastic perversion of the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle!), and bring that back to the Isaiah text, then it is very easy to reach the conclusion that Isaiah is also describing the same event. There are similar metaphors of light, stars, conflict, and being cast down. Earlier translations (KJV) mistakenly took the Hebrew term sheol in verse 15 as "hell" (in Hebrew it is simply the place where the dead go, a metaphor for death, specifically burial; see Sheol, Hell, and the Dead), which is another piece of the puzzle. So of course, since there is no mention of the "devil" or the "satan" in Isaiah, "Lucifer" must be the name Isaiah uses for him! So, Isaiah is talking about the devil being cast out of heaven!

Everyone, remember, the Bible is a Mythology, not a history book. These are metaphors, parables, and nothing in this book should be taken literally. The stories and fables in the Bible have been handed down from ancient times and many different cultures and religions as teachings, not facts or laws. Anyone will learn so much more from religious scriptures as soon as they can stop taking them literally.

Netracer, I agree that much of the Bible is parable and metaphoric. However, there is much that is also literal.
It's a hodge-podge, I guess. The Gospels, though, I do believe are quite reliable, as they are incredibly similar on all accounts. However, I agree that one should not take the whole thing literally. That would make one crazy!
One thing I know for sure is that anyone who claims to understand the Bible in it's entirety= is either grossly delusional or a liar. Or both.

Just this morning, we studied the last books of the Judges. Maybe the darkest time of the history of Israel. The time where men followed the ways of man. In no time in history do we see where men are so wicked. Israel fought the tribe of Benjamin. Leaving only a few hundred alive. Such wickedness is sickning to us. But out of the remaining tribe comes Saul, the king of Israel. It is truely a wonder to us to see how God can raise a leader out of such a pith of wickedness but he did and can.
And after this of course David did arise.
I can only wonder just what else God can do?

Hi all,

This devotional from the Institute For Creation Research just came in today. And, because it is appropriate to the discussion at hand -- I will just pass it on to you.

It was written by Dr. Henry M. Morris, the late founder of ICR.

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LIKE THE MOST HIGH
August 23, 2010

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14).

These are two of the "I will's" of Satan -- or Lucifer -- as he aspired to usurp the throne of God as ruler of the universe (see Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-17). Not content to be "the anointed cherub," the highest of the angelic hierarchy (Ezekiel 28:14), he wanted to be God, and this monstrous pride became "the condemnation of the devil" (1 Timothy 3:6), so that he is now "fallen from heaven" and will soon be "brought down to hell" (Isaiah 14:12, 15).

Lucifer, of course, is not the Creator, for he was "created" (Ezekiel 28:15) himself. It would seem therefore that for him to rationalize his ambition to be like the most High, he must somehow persuade himself that he is like the most High -- that is, that God is a created being like himself, and thus can be defeated. He only had God's word that he had been created by Him, and he evidently chose not to believe what God said (just as do multitudes of men and women today).

He, like they, chose rather to believe that the eternal cosmos had somehow created them all by its own powers. The great cosmos (call it Mother Nature, perhaps) has "created" spirit beings, as well as men and women, and all the worlds inhabited by them. In this scenario, the true Creator God is viewed as only one of many. Therefore He is vulnerable to defeat -- or so Satan evidently believes.

Thus Lucifer became the first evolutionist, and this great lie by which he deceived himself became the basis of his later deception of Eve and then of the founders of all the varied pantheistic religions of the world, as well as modern evolutionism and "New Age" philosophies. Nevertheless, God is still on His throne, and "the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings" (Revelation 17:14). HMM

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God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Now remind me again, how many times is the name Lucifer mentioned in the Bible?

Bill Gray, I am NOT antagonizing you when I ask, why in the world would there be a sentence about Satan in a long passage about the King of Babylon? I truly don't get it. If you take that sentence out of context you could read that into it, but taken as a whole, it sure sounds to me that that sentence is talking about the king of Babylon, just like the rest of the passage is.

I'm seriously not trying to argue with you, but could you please explain in your OWN words, how you get that? Thanks.

quote by Bill Gray} Chick, Satan does indeed exist! We find in the Bible that when God created the angels, there were at least three archangels: Michael, the warrior angelic leader; Gabriel, the messenger; and Lucifer, the light bearer. Bill in all my years I have never heard Satan called an Archangel until you did, would you mind listing that verse? I have never heard but two archangels but I know some people say that there is 5 if I am correct, and another thing you said that didn't sound right hearing you say it was that Lucifer fell from Grace.

You know Bill will never use logic, just repeat his mantra over and over.

I am right, you are wrong.
I am right, you are wrong.
I am right, you are wrong.
I am right, you are wrong.
I am right, you are wrong.
I am right, you are wrong.

Hi all,

While I was planning to write from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 about Lucifer/Satan -- I found this article which says what I wanted to write -- and says it better than me. So, I will share this with you regarding Lucifer/Satan.

Albert, you question my comment that Lucifer was an archangel. You are right that the Bible does not say that he was an archangel. However, when I read in Ezekiel, "the anointed cherub" -- in Ezekiel 28:14, "You were the anointed Cherub" -- and in Ezekiel 28:12, "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" -- and in Ezekiel 28:14, "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God" -- I see that as being about as high in the hierarchy of angels as one can get. Therefore, I drew the conclusion that he was an archangel. But, I am not adamant about that.

You are right that the apocrypha does list other archangels -- but, since those books are not part of the Bible canon and are viewed only as non-inspired historical books -- we can disregard those mention of archangels.

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STORY OF LUCIFER – ACCOUNT OF PRIDE
http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm

Story of Lucifer – His Origin: To find the origin of Lucifer, we turn to the Old Testament. In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).

The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.

Story of Lucifer – His History: Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

We also see this same motif in Ezekiel: "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire.

You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).

This passage seems to be addressed to the "king of Tyre." In reality, it goes beyond the king to the one who is behind the evil king of Tyre. This passage also has near and far prophecy about Lucifer/Satan because although his final end is already sure, it has not happened yet and it occurs after the final judgment (Revelation 20:7-10). In both the Isaiah passage and the Ezekiel passage, the representation is not of Lucifer/Satan as confined to his own person but his working in and the consummating of his plans through earthly kings and rulers who take to themselves divine honors and who, whether they actually know this or not, rule in the spirit and under the aims of Satan. "For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12, NIV). Satan is the principality behind the powers of this corrupt world system.

Notice the statement that is given in the passage in Ezekiel, "the anointed cherub." These statements could never apply to a human king but, they do apply to Lucifer/Satan who is behind the human king. This angel is the highest creature the LORD ever created. The LORD says of him, "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Satan was the wisest creature God ever created. No other angel, no other being was created with the intelligence that God gave to this creature. God says that this creation is "perfect in beauty." Apart from the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this creature is today the highest being.

In verse Ezekiel 28:14 it says, "You were the anointed Cherub." This tells us we are not talking about a human king. The word cherub is singular for cherubim. The cherubim are symbolic of God's Holy presence and His unapproachable majesty. These cherubim occupy a unique position. The "anointed cherub who covers" is the picture given to us in the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve had been sent out and God had placed cherubim to guard the way of the tree of life.

Also, when Moses made the mercy seat and placed it into the tabernacle's Holy of Holies, God's glory came and dwelt between the cherubim. They "covered" the mercy seat with their wings. So we now see that Satan was a cherub and his position was to guard the very throne of God. His position was that of protecting the holiness of God. Satan had the highest of all positions, a position which he despised and lost. We have here in Ezekiel a picture of the highest of God's creatures, perfect in wisdom, beautiful beyond description, a musician and on top of all that, he was given this high, exalted position. But, this creation, with all of these wonderful attributes also had a free will. One day, God says to this marvelous creature, "Iniquity was found in you."

Story of Lucifer – His Status: What kind of iniquity was found of him? In the book of Ezekiel, God has let us stand with Him at the very beginning, to see the origin and the creation of Satan. But, why does God say this? What is this iniquity? We must look back to Isaiah 14:12, which tells us of Lucifer/Satan's choice, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Did you notice in this passage all of the "I wills. "

He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word "stars" here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, "I will take over heaven, I will be God." That is Lucifer/Satan's sin and that is the iniquity that was found in him. He does not want to be God's servant. He does not want to do what he was created to do. He wants to be served and there are millions who have chosen to do just that; serve him. They have listened to his lies and chosen to follow him. Eve believed the lie that she would be like God. The reason Lucifer/Satan tempted her with that was because it is the very thing that he wants -- to be God.

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God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill