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First read THIS:

 

http://yellowhammernews.com/po...-marriage-arguments/

 

Now consider THIS:

 

Even today, ministers refuse to preside over wedding ceremonies when they determine that the requesting couple are not, per the minister's interpretation of scripture, qualified in the eyes of God to enter a marriage.  For example, a minister might refuse to unite a couple in the bonds of holy matrimony if the marriage would be one of a series of "serial marriages," Elizabeth Taylor style, where one or more of such marriages was terminated by an unscriptural divorce.. 

A priest of the Catholic Church is prohibited from presiding at a wedding ceremony where, under that church's doctrine, either of the partners was in a former marriage that was not  formally annulled by that church. Per Scalia's take on the matter, would not the minister or priest in such circumstances, being "authorized by the State to conduct marriage" be bound by the supposedly higher authority of the Constitution to conduct a wedding ceremony for a requesting couple (either same-sex or opposite sex) upon request and, should he refuse, would he be subject to a civil action to compel him to marry them against his convictions.

 

Just thinkin' about this stuff.

I yam what I yam and that's all I yam--but it is enough!

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Even today, ministers refuse to preside over wedding ceremonies when they determine that the requesting couple are not, per the minister's interpretation of scripture, qualified in the eyes of God to enter a marriage.  For example, a minister might refuse to unite a couple in the bonds of holy matrimony if the marriage would be one of a series of "serial marriages," Elizabeth Taylor style, where one or more of such marriages was terminated by an unscriptural divorce.. 

=================

Does that include a minister that gave up his church, abandoned his wife and little kids, ran off with a married woman, then came back and was rewarded by having his church 'given back to him'? Could HE have refused to marry someone for any reason? BTW, this scumbag isn't the only example, it's just my favorite for showing the hypocrisy of the church of christ.

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Old American:

Like I said this is one example, where I attend we have never done nor would condone such actions. Again, do not condem all for what one did. You must have a personal problem with that situation. Wrong is always wrong and right is always right whether you like or not and whether I like it or not

================================

I said this is ONE example of the hypocrisy of the coc, not one example of one church. So if he has to be without sin to cast the first stone, how can any of them refuse to marry people for any reason? THEY are judging people, they are casting stones. Yes, the coc are hypocrites. Not condemning, just the truth. No personal connection at all, I've just always thought the hypocrisy was so delicious and laughable. I don't take the crap seriously. What do I care if they gave the old goat his church back? But I am going to make fun of it and laugh at the coc for it, especially when they start condemning other folks.

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Old American:

Yes, and when you are making fun of that Church, you are also making fun of God and His only son Christ who gave His life for it. If the people in His Church are not doing what's right God will condem them not you or I.

=========================

IF there was a god I doubt he'd let the coc bunch speak for him. Call it condemning, I will call it what I said, laughing at and making fun of the hypocrites.

 

This absurdity from Worstthinking:

 

"So if he has to be without sin to cast the first stone, how can any of them refuse to marry people for any reason? THEY are judging people, they are casting stones. Yes, the coc are hypocrites."

______________________________

Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, "for any reason" can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  If that is so, then acknowledge it.  If that is not so, then tell us what,,if any, criteria YOU consider valid for a minister to invoke as a basis for such a refusal.  

A marriage in one building is no more valid than a marriage in another, whether it is a church or a courthouse. The state issues marriage licenses and these are required for a marriage to be valid. A marraige in a church is performed under the authority of the state. So, marraige is a civil matter not a religious matter. If priests/preachers/whatever don't wont to perform same sex marriages big deal. Some church will perform them and the courthouse marriage is still just as valid. If court officials refuse to perform the marriages then they should be removed from that public servant position. 

When Jesus made that statement we have to realize that He knows whether we have sin in our lives, so He knew the answer to the question before He asked. We have to know what is acceptable to God and what is not. If we know it is against His will, then we can not do it. So, if it is not a marriage that God supports, then we are not judging if we do not do it but following His commandments. We have to know ourselves whether we are sinning or not. If we study His word we will know.

Originally Posted by Contendah:

This absurdity from Worstthinking:

 

"So if he has to be without sin to cast the first stone, how can any of them refuse to marry people for any reason? THEY are judging people, they are casting stones. Yes, the coc are hypocrites."

______________________________

Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, "for any reason" can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  If that is so, then acknowledge it.  If that is not so, then tell us what,,if any, criteria YOU consider valid for a minister to invoke as a basis for such a refusal.  

=================================

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it. Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites. It was your pal OA that brought up "casting stones". I just reminded him that is just what the ministers are doing, judging and casting stones.

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by OldSalt:

A marriage in one building is no more valid than a marriage in another, whether it is a church or a courthouse. The state issues marriage licenses and these are required for a marriage to be valid. A marraige in a church is performed under the authority of the state. So, marraige is a civil matter not a religious matter. If priests/preachers/whatever don't wont to perform same sex marriages big deal. Some church will perform them and the courthouse marriage is still just as valid. If court officials refuse to perform the marriages then they should be removed from that public servant position. 

============

Exactly. Marriage is a contract, nothing holy about it.

 

Originally Posted by Old American:

When Jesus made that statement we have to realize that He knows whether we have sin in our lives, so He knew the answer to the question before He asked. We have to know what is acceptable to God and what is not. If we know it is against His will, then we can not do it. So, if it is not a marriage that God supports, then we are not judging if we do not do it but following His commandments. We have to know ourselves whether we are sinning or not. If we study His word we will know.

===============

Well go study it. I don't know how you can know what to do, seeing how you all cherry pick what you want to follow and ignore the rest. Then someone else ignores the part you like and does what they like, then you all fight about it. Plus you 'study' and read the bible for years, sometimes up to 60 or 70 years and in some cases longer, meet and put your heads together to talk about it for about as many years, then still claim no one can know god's plans, but you still try to tell others they're wrong and how they should live when you don't even know yourself. Then you wonder why others think you're nuts and hypocrites. Glad I don't have to worry about it.

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Old American:

It is very simple, read it and Do what it says. I am not mixed up.

You seem to be mixed up, confused, and grabbing at straws to justify your warped mind.

===============

How so? What straws and what am I trying to 'justify'? You don't make sense. Oh for shame! Are you judging and casting stones? Calling someone warped is christian? See, you're a hypocrite. You proved my point. Tsk Tsk! I have no interest in reading it again. I don't believe any of it and it's not entertaining enough to read over and over and over like you christians have to do. And then you still don't know what it says. LOL!

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Old American:

Not judging,if you do not believe in God and will not read His word and obey His commands you do have a warped mine. There is a difference in judging and stating a fact.  If you know something for sure, it is not a judgement, it is a fact. So the fact is you have a disrespect for God which proves you have a warped mine.

==================

I don't have a disrespect for your god because he does not exist. You can't disrespect what doesn't exist, so where was the disrespect? It's you silly ***** so called followers I laugh at. I said YOU were the hypocrite. I said the church members and ministers were hypocrites. All I said about your gawd was that if he had existed I don't think he'd let the coc speak for him. What part of that can't you get through to your warped mind? Or do you think YOU'RE god? I don't think you know anything for sure, and having something like you call me warped means nothing.

Last edited by Bestworking

Until you make up your mind to do what's right, no one can help you. If you don't believe in God or a life hereafter why do you care who is doing right or wrong or if someone is a hyprocrite or not. You just exist like any other animal, no hope, no soul, besides, according to you when your dead you're dead.

Until you change have fun on this earth, it's all you got. I am through with this discussion because I have better things to do with my time than waste it, so it's up to you.

Originally Posted by Old American:

Until you make up your mind to do what's right, no one can help you. If you don't believe in God or a life hereafter why do you care who is doing right or wrong or if someone is a hyprocrite or not. You just exist like any other animal, no hope, no soul, besides, according to you when your dead you're dead.

Until you change have fun on this earth, it's all you got. I am through with this discussion because I have better things to do with my time than waste it, so it's up to you.

========

I do what's right all the time. I care who does right and wrong because I live in this world among other folks, and people are supposed to do the right thing and not be hypocrites, among other nasty things. I don't like those folks. It's you that has the problem if you have to do right from fear, but you still aren't. You lied about me and showed you're a judgmental hypocrite to boot. I don't have to change to have 'fun'. Sorry you're such a bitter old pill. Sure doesn't look like your god is bringing you much joy.

 

Last edited by Bestworking

I am very happy and I do what's right, not out of fear but because I love God. I am not afraid of God because He is my Heavenly Father.  I am very happy here and I am happy because my soul will live forever. My earthly body will die but not my inner being, my soul will live forever, not like you think. Maybe you should change you thoughts on what happy is. Goodby, have whatever it is you call fun.

i am not bitter about life, but I must make you bitter when I tell you the TRUTH

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Contendah:

This absurdity from Worstthinking:

 

"So if he has to be without sin to cast the first stone, how can any of them refuse to marry people for any reason? THEY are judging people, they are casting stones. Yes, the coc are hypocrites."

______________________________

Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, "for any reason" can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  If that is so, then acknowledge it.  If that is not so, then tell us what,,if any, criteria YOU consider valid for a minister to invoke as a basis for such a refusal.  

=================================

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it. Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites. It was your pal OA that brought up "casting stones". I just reminded him that is just what the ministers are doing, judging and casting stones.

_____

Your irrational, absolutist take on the matter and your deflection and evasiveness are duly noted.

What deflection or evasiveness? I clearly answered your question. Can't help it if your nose is out of joint because I pointed out what hypocrites the coc folks are. Attack a woman for remarrying AFTER her husband, also a coc member, takes up with another coc member and divorces said woman for other said woman. Give a cheating coc preacher back his church. Then shun others for cheating. Hypocrites. I could go on and on but I can tell by your posts that you get the message loud and clear. You just don't like it.

=====================

YOU blithered, sputtered, cried:

Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, "for any reason" can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  

 I answered quite clearly:

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it.  Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites.

Originally Posted by Old American:

I am very happy and I do what's right, not out of fear but because I love God. I am not afraid of God because He is my Heavenly Father.  I am very happy here and I am happy because my soul will live forever. My earthly body will die but not my inner being, my soul will live forever, not like you think. Maybe you should change you thoughts on what happy is. Goodby, have whatever it is you call fun.

i am not bitter about life, but I must make you bitter when I tell you the TRUTH

================================

I can't find anywhere you told the truth in any of your posts. Now run along and find someone else to accuse of saying/doing something they didn't say or do. You have a bit of a wet, mangy dog smell about you.

Last edited by Bestworking

I feel sorry for you because you are so bitter, bitter, bitter. According to you this life is all you have. Don't sound like you enjoy it very much. Why don't you try opening up your brain to reality, and maybe be happy instead of just taking up space. Again I truly feel sorry for you, but I can see I am getting nowhere with you. So answer back with whatever nonsense you want to. I am through.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What deflection or evasiveness? I clearly answered your question. Can't help it if your nose is out of joint because I pointed out what hypocrites the coc folks are. Attack a woman for remarrying AFTER her husband, also a coc member, takes up with another coc member and divorces said woman for other said woman. Give a cheating coc preacher back his church. Then shun others for cheating. Hypocrites. I could go on and on but I can tell by your posts that you get the message loud and clear. You just don't like it.

=====================

YOU blithered, sputtered, cried:

Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, "for any reason" can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  

 I answered quite clearly:

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it.  Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites.

___

Thank you for confirming your irrational conclusion that there is no reason for any minister, anywhere, under any conditions, to refuse for any reason to preside at any wedding.

Thank you for confirming your irrational conclusion that there is no reason for any minister, anywhere, under any conditions, to refuse for any reason to preside at any wedding.

==================

Thank you for proving what I have suspected for some time, you can't stand to be wrong and have to flip, slither and crawl to try to twist what someone says that you don't like. One reason is what I stated, they're hypocrites. No where, at no time, did I state there is no reason under any conditions they can't refuse. I repeat, if their nasty old selves don't want to do it, don't force them. Who'd want the old hypocrites to do it by force anyway? Now, run tell that to your momma. BTW, I've sometimes wondered what happened to the sweet thang that the old preacher got all freaky deaky with. Did her hubby take her back?? Did she stay in church with preacher lover boy or did all the old self righteous hens and other hypocrites shun her and make her unwelcome at all the coc?

 

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough?

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

 No where, at no time, did I state there is no reason under any conditions they can't refuse. I 

-----------

 

This exchange, from above, documents that you most certainly did make such an all-inclusive statement and that you did so in reply to my direct question.  My question and your reply:

 

MY QUESTION: "Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, 'for any reason' can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  If that is so, then acknowledge it.  If that is not so, then tell us what,,if any, criteria YOU consider valid for a minister to invoke as a basis for such a refusal." 

=================================

YOUR REPLY:  "I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it. Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites. It was your pal OA that brought up "casting stones". I just reminded him that is just what the ministers are doing, judging and casting stones."

 

I rest my case.

 

 

Why yes, I did post they don't have a valid reason. I see you don't know the definition of valid as used here. Not quite the genius you want others to think you are, are you? Sure seems you don't know words have different meanings, and how someone is using it, even after they, I, explained it. Pitiful. I will repeat, at no time, and in no post, did I say under any conditions he couldn't refuse. The opposite, I said let them refuse, they're all hypocrites anyway. Funny you keep picking at that. How many times do I have to post it? If the old nasty things don't want to do it, don't force it. BTW, I will note you refuse to answer my questions about the old coc hounddog and his sweety. I know you don't like the hypocrisy of the coc put out there.

=================

 I answered quite clearly:

I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it.  Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites.

 

Valid

adj. 1. Well grounded; just: a valid objection.

Synonyms analytic (or analytical), coherent, consequent, good, rational, reasonable, sensible, sound, valid, well-founded, well-grounded

 

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

 No where, at no time, did I state there is no reason under any conditions they can't refuse. I 

-----------

 

This exchange, from above, documents that you most certainly did make such an all-inclusive statement and that you did so in reply to my direct question.  My question and your reply:

 

MY QUESTION: "Your position in this matter seems to be that no minister, 'for any reason' can legitimately refuse to marry anyone..  If that is so, then acknowledge it.  If that is not so, then tell us what,,if any, criteria YOU consider valid for a minister to invoke as a basis for such a refusal." 

=================================

YOUR REPLY:  "I don't think they have a valid reason betternnun. I think they're hypocrites. Is that clear enough? If they don't want to do it, let their old nasty ***** not do it. Again, I will just laugh at the hypocrites. It was your pal OA that brought up "casting stones". I just reminded him that is just what the ministers are doing, judging and casting stones."

 

I rest my case.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conntie, did you just judge and cast stones? Criticizing another's personal

belief of a Religious nature because you disagree..??

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Old American:

 I am a member of the Church of Christ and do not think this right. he who is without sin cast the first stone! 

Is your church one of those that believe only the COC is going to Heaven?

________ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

One day you will know there is a God.

But Best doesn’t believe in God. What if an Atheist said to you that one day you will know there is no God?

_______ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

It is very simple, read it and Do what it says. I am not mixed up.

You seem to be mixed up, confused, and grabbing at straws to justify your warped mind.

 

But Best has read the Bible, as most Atheist have. In fact, most Atheist were raised in church or have been in church at some point in their life. Why would you refer to Atheist as having a warped mind? She doesn't seem mixed up, confused or grabbing at anything to me. I think Best is a very smart woman. She doesn’t mince words, speaks her mind & you will always know where you stand with her. I had much rather have a friend like Best than one that claims to be a Christian, will lie to me,  runs others down, & call people names.

_________ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

Not judging,if you do not believe in God and will not read His word and obey His commands you do have a warped mine. There is a difference in judging and stating a fact.  If you know something for sure, it is not a judgement, it is a fact. So the fact is you have a disrespect for God which proves you have a warped mine. 

So just because a person doesn’t believe in God, you think they have a warped mind? That we’re distorted in our thinking? I would never say you have a warped mind just because you believe differently than I do. If you were ever around an Atheist very long, you would find they are not as judgmental as a believer.

_______ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

Until you make up your mind to do what's right, no one can help you. If you don't believe in God or a life hereafter why do you care who is doing right or wrong or if someone is a hyprocrite or not. You just exist like any other animal, no hope, no soul, besides, according to you when your dead you're dead. Until you change have fun on this earth, it's all you got. I am through with this discussion because I have better things to do with my time than waste it, so it's up to you. 

Help her do what? What is supposed to make up her mind about? You want her to do what’s right according to what you believe to be right? What if her “what’s right” is not the same as yours? Is she supposed to think/feel the way you want her to? Did you know that a person doesn’t have to believe in God to have morals? We feel compassion for others just like you do. We help others just like you may help others.

______ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

 Maybe you should change you thoughts on what happy is. Goodby, have whatever it is you call fun. i am not bitter about life, but I must make you bitter when I tell you the TRUTH

 

Why should Best have to change her thoughts? The TRUTH as you see it? How do we know that you know what the truth is? We've read the same Bible you have. Who's to say which of us know the truth? How do you know we're not speaking the truth when we say God doesn't exist?

Why does she have to be happy in the same way you are? Why do you feel the need to say, which sounds sarcastic, for her to have whatever it is she calls fun? Kind of reminds me of the COC folks I have known all my life. They are some of the unhappiest people I’ve ever seen. It’s almost as if they think it’s a sin to be happy.

_____ 

Originally Posted by Old American:

I feel sorry for you because you are so bitter, bitter, bitter. According to you this life is all you have. Don't sound like you enjoy it very much. Why don't you try opening up your brain to reality, and maybe be happy instead of just taking up space. Again I truly feel sorry for you, but I can see I am getting nowhere with you. So answer back with whatever nonsense you want to. I am through. 

Why do you consider Best bitter? Is it because she doesn’t believe like you do or is it because she speaks her mind? I didn’t see anything in her post that led me to believe she doesn’t enjoy life. Do you believe that Atheist people are miserable? That question carried me back to what I said earlier. The majority of Christian people I know walk around with a huge frown on their face, especially after being in church. They don’t look/act happy.

 

I’m not trying to be rude or mean. My questions are honest & I would love to get answers to them. I’m so sick of people treating me like I have some kind of disease because I have strong doubts about the existence of God. Not believing or doubting doesn’t make us bad people. We just don’t believe like you do. I would never say you were warped, unhappy or didn’t enjoy life just because you believed differently than I. It’s easy to get upset when people talk down to us or try to convince us to believe like they do. Becoming an Atheist doesn’t happen overnight, just as being a Christian doesn’t happen overnight. I would turn my back to an Atheist quicker than a Christian & trust in my safety. Not saying that to be ugly, it's just how I feel.

No, Scalia doesn't have a valid point. In many religions if you are divorced you can't be married in the church by their pastor. However, all people that are legally divorced have the right to remarry. So, gay marriage would be treated the same way. If a church doesn't want to marry a gay couple, no big deal. What is wrong is denying gay couples the same rights. Make it legal and issue them their license. Then let them work out the rest of it. I wasn't married by a religious leader, or based on any religion at all. I am still legally married. To force pastors to perform weddings that go against their religious beliefs would not be allowed. Nor should it be. As the saying goes my rights end at the tip of your nose. I don't think anyone who supports gay rights wants to take away someone elses rights.

 

 I was reading the oral arguments the other day and one of the justices (can't remember which one) brought up the ban on same sex marriage as a possible violation of equal rights based on gender. It went something like this....If Sue can marry Steve, but Joe can't marry Steve, then Joe is being discriminated against due to his gender. Gender discrimination has already been decided unconstitutional. 

Best said the coc are hyprocrites and I am coc so she called me one. She does not even know who I am. I did not say anyone else had a warped mine, I said she did. Yes that is my opinion based on the her line of thinking. You do not have to agree with me, but I can promise everyone that God said ever knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that I am God. Whether you believe it or not. I think anyone who does not believe in a life after our one on earth can not be happy as I know happy.

you and her seem to have the opinion that all Christians are hyprocrites. I am sure some are just like some atheists are. Believe what you want to, God's not going to make you believe on Him in this life.

Now I have told you all I know to tell, if you do not want to listen then don't. If you think you have got it all figured out then go with it. It is o.k. For a Christian to have an opinion,just as you can.

Originally Posted by Old American:

I can promise everyone that God said ever knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that I am God. Whether you believe it or not. I think anyone who does not believe in a life after our one on earth can not be happy as I know happy.

you and her seem to have the opinion that all Christians are hyprocrites. I am sure some are just like some atheists are. Now I have told you all I know to tell, if you do not want to listen then don't. If you think you have got it all figured out then go with it. It is o.k. For a Christian to have an opinion,just as you can.

_____

You make that promise because you got it out of a book. You do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's true. You believe it because you have faith that it's true. Should I say your mind is warped because you believe such a far fetched idea?

 

I have never said ALL Christians are hypocrites & I don't think Best has either. I have said I believe the majority of them are, but not all. I say this because of what I've seen & what I've heard "Christians" say. I know a bad fruit when I see/hear one.

 

How do you know we don't know happy? I was in church for many years, & was never happy. I pretended to be because I didn't want to worry/hurt my family. Was I a hypocrite? Yes, I most certainly was, until I decided one day I couldn't do it anymore. The day I walked away & started being honest with myself & my family, was when I started being happy.

I find it interesting that you said some Atheist are hypocrite's. I would love for you to explain that. A self-professed Atheist is usually up front about their un-belief.

I have never said I have it all figured out but I sure wish I did.   And I never said it isn't ok for a Christian to have an opinion.

I'm enjoying this discussion because I never know when I might learn something, but I feel as though you are upset & don't want to discuss it anymore.

Before you get angry & go away from this topic, I would love to know the answer to a question I ask that you didn't answer. Do you believe that only the COC is the only ones going to Heaven?

 

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