Are We Saved Because We Are Roman Catholic? - Or Protestant?

Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi to my Forum Friends,

The discussion I recently started "What Is The Gap Theory -- And Can It Harm Believers?" has quickly slipped into a Roman Catholic versus Protestant harangue. This leads me to several very important questions: Is a person saved by being a Roman Catholic or by being a Protestant? Is a person saved because of the church which he/she attends? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO!

We are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING else! Read about it in Ephesians 2:8-9.

This has led me to resurrect a discussion I had with a Friend in August 2007, when he responded to an article I had written in The Conservative Voice. Below is an e-mail I sent in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter because of this exchange.

As I say in my e-mail below, I find Dr. Anthony Pezzotta to be the best resource for anyone who truly wants to understand and discuss the issue of Roman Catholicism versus Protestantism. Tony spent a large part of his live in the Roman Catholic church. For ten years he was director of a Roman Catholic seminary in the Philippines, with the task of teaching other Roman Catholic priests. And when he decided to leave Catholicism to become a Protestant leader and teacher, he did not leave the Catholic people. Tony turned from Catholicism; not from the Catholic people. Because of his deep love for the people, both Roman Catholic and Protestant -- he can reason from a viewpoint based strongly on both Catholic seminary teaching and on Protestant seminary teaching. This is why I highly recommend his book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures."

You can find ordering information on the Conservative Baptist web site:

CB Southern California http://www.cbasc.com/latest_news.htm

On this web site, scroll down to the section in the lower right which shows available books and find the one labeled: Catholicism and the Bible. This will give you more information on the book, Truth Encounters, and how to order it.

To answer one final question which I am sure will arise on the Religion Forum: NO, I do not receive any commission nor kick back for pushing this book. However, I do receive rewards in heaven whenever anyone heeds my advise -- and, through this, opens his/her heart to the ministering of the Holy Spirit. So, do not be concerned that you may make Bill Gray rich in earthly things -- just purchase this book for your own sake and for the sake of those you love.

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Subject: YOUR MISSION, SHOULD YOU DECIDE TO ACCEPT IT. . .
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:46:58 -0800 From: Bill Gray

Hi to all my Friends,

Two Sundays ago, my wife, Dory, and I visited our Filipino-American church in San Juan Capistrano to hear Dr. Anthony Pezzotta speak. I have known about Dr. Pezzotta for about fifteen years, since a friend gave me an early unpublished manuscript of the book which is now currently in bookstores, "Far From Rome, Near To God." This book is the written testimonies of fifty Catholic priests who left Catholicism to join Protestant churches in spreading the full truth of Jesus Christ and His church. In that early pre-publication manuscript, Dr. Pezzotta's testimony was the first -- and it immediately caught my eye, for it involved a Catholic priest and seminary leader/teacher who was born into a Roman Catholic family in Italy, earned advanced degrees in Roman Catholic Seminaries in Rome, England, Spain, and Germany -- and then spent ten years in the Philippines.

Ordained a priest in 1961, in 1964 he was assigned as Director of Schools and Seminaries, and as a Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines. In 1974, through studying the Scriptures on his own, and through the testimony of Rev. Ernesto Montealegre, a Filipino Baptist pastor, Tony trusted Jesus Christ alone as Savior and Lord of his life -- and left Catholicism to join the Santa Cruz Baptist Church, where he was baptized on March 3, 1974.

In 2001, Dr. Pezzotta joined the Conservative Baptist Association of Southern California where he is currently serving as Director of Ethnic Ministries.

So, after feeling that I have known Tony Pezzotta for fifteen years, just two weeks ago I finally met him in person and heard him speak. I was not disappointed. He gave our sermon message that morning; then after fellowship (which in the Filipino churches always means good food plus good Christian camaraderie) Tony held a Question & Answer session for several hours, giving personal and Biblical answers to any and all questions. One man stood and said, "I am a Catholic. Am I sinning by coming to this (Baptist) church?" Tony's brief answer was, "No" -- but, then he went on to address this man's question in more detail, as one who has been in his shoes and has found the Truth, and would like to help this man do the same -- an honest answer, not demeaning nor looking down upon this man for his Catholicism, but offering to personally share the Truth with him.

This is why I personally respect Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, and why I highly recommend his book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures, with the subtitle, A Bible Study For Catholics." This book is available by contacting:

CB Southern California
PO Box 2279
Montclair, CA 91763-0779
Phone: 909.482.0728

or by contacting CB Ministries at cbministries@cbasc.com

The price of the book is $9 per copy in the United States -- shipment outside the United States will require a shipping cost. You may contact CB Ministries to find more about the shipping costs. Individual copies may be ordered, or a box containing thirty books if you or your church or ministry would like to make copies available to those in your fellowship.

The book "Truth Encounters" is available in both English and Spanish; however the Spanish language version supply is running low until another printing. So, if you need the Spanish version --- don't waste too much time in contacting CB Ministries.

This book would be a bargain at ten times that cost; for it gives an honest, loving answer to many questions that both Catholics and non-Catholics alike probably have had at one time or another.

When you contact CB Southern California, you will want to also request the four page booklet/tract written by Dr. Pezzotta titled, "Should I Leave My Church?" In this booklet/tract, the question is asked: "I am a Roman Catholic, but recently in a home Bible study I accepted Christ as my Saviour and Lord, and I know now that I am a born-again person, a child of God; I know that I have eternal life. Soon I hope to follow Jesus in the witness of baptism. Do you think I can stay in the Roman Catholic Church, or do you advise me to leave it? Is it necessary or important for me to join an Evangelical church?"

This booklet/tract caught my attention because, in the Q&A session two weeks ago, I ask a similar question of Tony. Through the years, in my Friends Ministry and in personal conversations, I have often been asked and have discussed the question, "Bill, can a person be a born-again Christian and remain in the Roman Catholic church?" So, you might imagine, I was all ears waiting to hear Dr. Pezzotta's answer to this question.

You can read his detailed response in the four page booklet/tract written by Dr. Pezzotta, "Should I Leave My Church?" The subtitle for this booklet/tract is "An Answer From God's Word To A Practical Question."

I have a personal copy and do intend to copy it into my computer so that I will be able to share it with Friends worldwide. However, when you contact CB Southern California about getting the book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures" -- you might also want to purchase a supply of the "Should I Leave My Church?" booklet/tract for use in your own church or ministry.

I will be happy to scan my copy and e-mail it to anyone who requests it.

The booklet/tract is available in English, Spanish, and I believe in several Filipino dialects. That last part we can confirm if you have a need.

"Your mission, Mr. Phelps, should you decide to accept it, is to. . . " Sorry, I had a flashback to Mission Impossible; but you and I know that our mission is not impossible -- for we are commissioned by Jesus Christ Himself to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them (Matt 28:18-20) and to be His witnesses throughout the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

So, your mission, should you decide to accept it -- is to share this message with all your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Our mission needs all the "unsecret" agents we can recruit.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/21/1010:10 PM

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Former Member

quote:
Is a person saved by being a Roman Catholic or by being a Protestant? Is a person saved because of the church which he/she attends? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO!

We are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING else! Read about it in Ephesians 2:8-9.

I personally do not agree with the whole "saved" thing. It implies that it's something that's done once, and then you're good to go. So you say "yes" to Christ, and then worry no more? No way.
It has nothing to do with which church you attend.
Every act of mercy and sacrifice, every prayer and act of pennance/reconciliation brings us closer to God. I cannot imagine that we'll get to Heaven (GOD WILLING) and find that it's ONLY Catholics, or ONLY c of c, etc.
The Eucharist, baptism, confession, devotionals, novenas and all thing Catholics are what brings us closer to God, and enable us to walk with Christ in His friendship.
Now,Mr. Gray, it is abundantly clear that you are not a "fan" of the Catholic Church and it's teachings. But you know what? It is the WHOLE truth. The Church from which all others were born. So it can't be all bad..........
Personally, I'm getting tired but I will tirelessly defend my faith.
I agree with you that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. I agree with you that nobody comes through the Father except through the Son. WE ALL KNOW THIS! Does it really matter what "path" we take to get there? I don't think so.
Out of curiosity, since I am new to these forums, what is your denomination? What church do you attend?
Because reading your many, many posts, you seem quite sure of yourself, and of your salvation, and claim to be helping to save others. To what Church are you hoping to draw them? just curious which one of the 50,000 Protestant denominations you happen to think got it all "right". I would also like to know what your theological education is. Where were you trained, and where did you get your "authority" on all these religious topics?
DISCLAIMER- this is meant with no disrespect intended to my Protestant Brothers.

3/21/1010:25 PM

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Former Member

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quote:
"I am a Roman Catholic, but recently in a home Bible study I accepted Christ as my Saviour and Lord, and I know now that I am a born-again person, a child of God; I know that I have eternal life.

Oh, my Goodness. This is ridiculous. No offense. But if this person was a truly practicing and devout Catholic, he/she would have not only accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, but would have taken part in the Holy Eucharist, in which he joins the Apostles at the Last Supper. COME ON! This Catholic was already a "child of God" in baptism. He/she died with Christ, in order to rise with Him. The fact that he/she is asking these questions just proves that he/she had a poor understanding of the Catholic Faith to begin with.

3/21/1010:30 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
When you contact CB Southern California, you will want to also request the four page booklet/tract written by Dr. Pezzotta titled, "Should I Leave My Church?" In this booklet/tract, the question is asked: "I am a Roman Catholic, but recently in a home Bible study I accepted Christ as my Saviour and Lord, and I know now that I am a born-again person, a child of God; I know that I have eternal life. Soon I hope to follow Jesus in the witness of baptism. Do you think I can stay in the Roman Catholic Church, or do you advise me to leave it? Is it necessary or important for me to join an Evangelical church?"

Oh, my Goodness. This is ridiculous. No offense. But if this person was a truly practicing and devout Catholic, he/she would have not only accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, but would have taken part in the Holy Eucharist, in which he joins the Apostles at the Last Supper. COME ON! This Catholic was already a "child of God" in baptism. He/she died with Christ, in order to rise with Him. The fact that he/she is asking these questions just proves that he/she had a poor understanding of the Catholic Faith to begin with.

Hi VP,

The man who wrote the book Truth Encounters and the booklet, "Should I Leave My Church?" -- is an Italian who grew up in an Italian Roman Catholic family and in the Roman Catholic church, became a priest and was educated in Roman Catholic seminaries in Rome, England, Spain, and Germany -- and then spent ten years in the Philippines. For ten years he was Director of Schools and Seminaries and Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines. So, I would say that this man truly knows Roman Catholic theology.

He left the Roman Catholic church in 1974, did ministry with the Baptist church in Manila, and then came to America where he attended Protestant seminaries.

Now, are you saying that you have more knowledge of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology than this man? Or are you merely repeating what you have, all your life, been taught to say in defense of the Roman Catholic church?

If you are not afraid of the truth; possibly you should consider getting a copy of his book Truth Encounters and read it for yourself. All the information you will need to get a copy is in my original post.

As I said before, and have said many times -- a person is not saved because he is or is not a Roman Catholic -- nor because he is or is not a Protestant. I have no doubt that many Roman Catholics will be in heaven with us. A person is saved, by grace, through faith -- ALONE.

VP, you tell me, "This Catholic was already a 'child of God' in baptism."

If Roman Catholics are "children of God" from infant baptism -- then, why is believing that one has eternal security and WILL spend eternity with God, considered the Sin of Presumption in the Roman Catholic church? If a person is a child of God; will not God bring that child home to be with Him eternally? The reason being that an infant cannot become a believer -- so the "infant baptism" is no more than a dedication of that child to God; just as we do in the Protestant churches.

But, the sad part is that, during this life -- Roman Catholics have no sense of eternal security, no assurance that they will spend eternity in heaven with God. The reason this is sad is that, you CAN know, beyond all doubt -- that you are saved and will spend eternity with God. Yet, for the Roman Catholics, it is a sin to believe this, even though the Bible teaches it. This is truly sad -- that many people have to go through life not being sure of their salvation -- when Jesus Christ has promised it -- to all who believe, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE" (John 6:47).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/22/1012:57 AM

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rolltidequeenFamiliar Face

Once saved always saved. Nothing can pluck me out of my God's hands. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand" I am so thankful for that verse as it is a promise from God. No matter what church you attend that is your promise from God. It is not a denominational question. Your salvation is not anything that can be earned. It has to be a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. You begin by admitting that you are a sinner and you want to live that life no more. Whether you are a convicted felon or a nice housewife who is a "good" person. That is what you have to do. You must allow the old life to pass away before you can follow Him. Every bit of it. Are we going to always be successful at being a Christian? No. As we are not perfect. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. That is you, me, the preacher, and my next door neighbor. We all need salvation whether you want to admit it or accept it. It is not just people who have sinned "badly" like someone who has committed a crime. Christ is the only perfect person who has walked this earth. I strive to follow Jesus and to be like Jesus but I fail each day in some way. A harsh word, a bad thought, the list goes on. Should I give up because I fail. No. Because God loves me inspite of my imperfections. Why? I don't know. I guess I will find out one day when I see Him and walk by His side. One thing I want to make sure everyone knows is that salvation is for everyone. Not just for the "good people." We mortal human beings put degrees on sin. Not God. So please don't feel like God would not want you if you have committed sin . We all have. He wants you too. Now. No matter how badly you think you have sinned (the bad things we have done). So it is okay to confess in prayer to Jesus you have committed sins. That is the first step.

Where do we go from here? We admitted we are a sinner so what is next? You confess Him as your Savior and Lord. "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9.

Now we have admitted we are a sinner, believe He is our Savior, and have confessed Him as our Lord but where to next? We admit we want to follow Christ but what now? Church? Yes. But not only church. Church is for discipleship and learning but being a Christian is so much more than worship and attending a Bible Study class or peforming rituals...yes protestants have rituals too. Singing and "X" number amount of hymns or praise choruses, taking up the offering during a certain time of the service and many more. We must go beyond that. Worship is good but it is SO much more than that. I am not saying church is not a good thing or unnecessary because it is! It gives me encouragement and the motivation to do what I need to do as a Christian but church can not give me eternal life. Only a PERSONAL relationship with Christ can do that. Praying to Him and allowing Him to guide my steps each step of the way. His Holy Spirit will help me know some of that(yes I said that...it lives INSIDE of me until He returns or I die.) "I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit" Romans 9:1 If I trust in the Holy Spirit He will guide me. Romans 9:21 is the promise to me that I can confirm my actions with Him. Does this mean I will know right away what I am supposed to do? No. Not instantly but as I live I will see how His plan works in my life as I reflect on my life as I grow and if everything "feels" right and if "doors are opening" for me in a certain area that would normally would be shut then I can "confirm" I am walking as He would have me.

The next thing we must do is begin to bear fruit. "When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father." John 15:8 My fruit is produced in ways I probably will never see but if I am working diligently to produce fruit I know I am honoring my God. I might send food to Haiti but never see the people who get my food but I have the assurance they heard about Christ if it is a reputable organization. Trusting Christ also means being smart with your resources. Also, I might participate in a worship service by song but may never know who the song touched. But if I am working in the Name of God and giving Him the glory for it then I know His will is being done. Any blessing you can give someone that is done in the Name of Christ is fruit. And know this my friend, He will judge that which is in your heart. Doing it to look good or so that I can make others think I am "good" is not bearing the fruit of Christ. Also, as we are considering church as a place for fruit let me caution you to emember that going to church will not save me. Getting baptized or sprinkled will not save me. But accepting the free gift of salvation which is offered through Jesus Christ's death on the cross is how to be saved. Then I study my Bible and serve Him through serving others. AND I must love others like He loves me. Here is what the Bible says the Greatest Commandment is. Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." Mathew 22:37-39. Love Him and then Love your neighbor. Yesh even your worst enemy. Is that easy? No! But wtih His help you can. Trust me. I have done it. But with HIS help. This means you must be giving, giving, giving. Just like Him. I was HIS enemy until I accepted His gift. He gave the most selfless gift of all. Himself. So I pray you can do this. I pray that He took all of me out of this post and filled it up with words that are easy to understand. I didn't even mean to take this long but it just begin to pour out. I told a group of kids today that the gift He gave to me is not a good one unless you share it with others. I can enjoy it, yes, but it is a gift that is unlike no other and I must share it just as I encouraged them to do. It is no good to me if I don't bear fruit for Him. Even on this page I can bear His fruit. Do I expect someone to take issue with all I have typed? Yes I do. But it is not an issue with me. It is with Him. Did I leave something out? Quite possibly. I am not perfect. I am not a preacher. Just a regular person. But I have the satisfaction of sharing His gift of salvation with you. And yes it is like any other gift in one way. You can accept it or reject it. But I pray you accept it. Then find someone who you can talk to. And remember when you do that churches and preachers are not perfect and will make mistakes and fail. They are sinners too. I have even been the recipient of that. Not easy but if you just place your eyes on Him He will carry you.
God bless each and every one of you!

3/22/101:11 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:
Originally posted by rolltidequeen:
The next thing we must do is begin to bear fruit. "When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father." John 15:8 My fruit is produced in ways I probably will never see but if I am working diligently to produce fruit I know I am honoring my God. I might send food to Haiti but never see the people who get my food but I have the assurance they heard about Christ if it is a reputable organization.

Hi Queen,

This statement I can truly relate to in my own Christian life. In the mid-1990s, I began to write, publish, and mail a Christian newsletter, The Good News. It grew to where I was mailing it to 400 homes across America and to 60 homes in 12 other countries. I worked in a computer integration company and one Friday I took a call from a customer in Houston. He had bought our product and was having a problem. I told him, "I can work with you on the phone until 5:00 PM; but, then I have to leave to attend Bible study."

His reaction was, "Oh, you're a Christian; so am I." I told him about my Christian newsletter and he asked to be put on my mailing list. I mailed the newsletter monthly; so, about two weeks later I mailed an issue. The next week he and I were talking and he told me, "Bill, I received your newsletter -- and it came just in time." Since my boss and a client were in my office, I could not ask him to explain further. Two weeks later, I was laid off and never had a chance to find out from him what he meant by, "It came just in time" -- but, I did not worry about it. God knew what he needed and what he meant; that was enough for me.

Fast forward a few years to October 1997 and my wife and I were attending church in one of our sister churches. A missionary was speaking that day -- but, for some reason, during the service, God put a strong desire on my heart to write a letter to Bill Gates. Just to digress a bit; in the early 1970s, I worked with Bill Gates and Paul Allen at a company named MITS in Albuquerque before they started Microsoft. So, he was a friend.

This is an excerpt from that letter which I wrote in 1997:

Bill, you may wonder why I have written this letter. From all that I have seen in the industry and the media you are a very happy, successful, well adjusted person. I have watched news accounts of your relatively recent marriage, your new home and how well you have handled your relationship with your neighbors-to-be to help them survive the disruptions in their daily lives caused by the construction of your new home. Everything I have read or heard tells me that you have it all together, still the same down to earth Bill I knew in the seventies.

However, at a recent Sunday worship service, as our pastor was leading us in prayer, you were very strong on my mind and my heart. Nothing the pastor said related to you in any way and I had no idea why you suddenly were so strong on my mind. I felt that you have a need. I don't know what, but maybe a need that possibly only God can provide. Bill, I don't know your religious affiliation or what kind of relationship you have with God. I do know that He put a concern for you in my heart and I don't know why. One thing I have learned though is to trust Him when He guides me. I immediately began to write this letter that day in church; then I let it sit for a while to see what He would have me do.

I don't write this letter because you are Bill Gates, the wealthy, successful industry leader. I write it because you are Bill Gates, either a brother in Christ, or a brother in need of Christ. I don't know which but I do know that I care and that God cares.

Just as I never talked again with my Christian friend in Houston; I did not hear from Bill Gates. But, that is not a problem. I knew that he had a need and that God had put it in my heart to write to him -- I knew that I had to just mail the letter and leave it the results in the hands of God.

About three years ago, I was reading an article about Bill Gates and one thing jumped off the page at me. Bill's mom, whom he cherished, died in 1994 -- the same year my mother died. Was this the connection? Was this the need which God knew that Bill Gates had in 1997? I do not know. I only know that God put this on my heart -- and I followed His lead. I mailed the letter and left the rest to God.

Queen, sometimes we get feedback; most often we do not. A Friend who wrote a response to an article I published in The Conservative Voice, and who has been on my Friends Ministry eNewsletter mail list for several years -- recently told me, "Bill, I have been a Christian for a long time; but, I had begun to backslide, to wander away. Your articles have brought me back to the Lord. Thank you."

Getting feedback like this is nice. However, if we do it for that kind of reward; then, there is no heavenly reward. I will stick to letting God handle the details -- and I will just follow His lead. I can wait for rewards a wee bit longer.

Regarding the rest of your post -- all I can say is: AMEN!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/22/103:44 AM

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Former Member

quote:
Now, are you saying that you have more knowledge of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology than this man? Or are you merely repeating what you have, all your life, been taught to say in defense of the Roman Catholic church?

If you are not afraid of the truth; possibly you should consider getting a copy of his book Truth Encounters and read it for yourself. All the information you will need to get a copy is in my original post.

No, thanks. But I did check it out on Amazon.com. I feel certain that I could find a book on apologetics to refute it. No, as you know I do not claim to know more theology. I am a lay person- but guess what- a very devout Christian. I have never been taught to defend the faith. I do not repeat things like a robot, as you imply- I have never studied apologetics. I really haven't had the need to, until I moved to this crazy town....
Thank you for your book recommendation. May I recommend a website for you,Mr. Gray? Fathercorapi.com. He's a fellow Californian. I believe you will probably find him to be a rebuttal to your friend's book. If you want to know some "more" Truth, please look him up.

3/22/106:51 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi VP,

In my original post, I wrote, "The man, Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, who wrote the book "Truth Encounters" and the booklet, "Should I Leave My Church?" -- is an Italian who grew up in an Italian Roman Catholic family and in the Roman Catholic church, became a priest and was educated in Roman Catholic seminaries in Rome, England, Spain, and Germany -- and then spent ten years in the Philippines. For ten years he was Director of Schools and Seminaries and Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines. So, I would say that this man truly knows Roman Catholic theology.

He left the Roman Catholic church in 1974, did ministry with the Baptist church in Manila, and then came to America where he attended Protestant seminaries. Now, are you saying that you have more knowledge of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology than this man? Or are you merely repeating what you have, all your life, been taught to say in defense of the Roman Catholic church?

If you are not afraid of the truth; possibly you should consider getting a copy of his book "Truth Encounters" and read it for yourself. All the information you will need to get a copy is in my original post."

And, you responded, [color:blue "No, thanks. But I did check it out on Amazon.com. I feel certain that I could find a book on apologetics to refute it. No, as you know I do not claim to know more theology. I am a lay person -- but guess what -- a very devout Christian. I have never been taught to defend the faith. I do not repeat things like a robot, as you imply -- I have never studied apologetics. I really haven't had the need to, until I moved to this crazy town....

Thank you for your book recommendation. May I recommend a website for you, Mr. Gray? Fathercorapi.com. He's a fellow Californian. I believe you will probably find him to be a rebuttal to your friend's book. If you want to know some "more" Truth, please look him up." [/color}

Thank you, VP. I did visit Father Corapi's web site. And, although I did not find any articles which refer to Dr. Pezzotta; I did find an article which I think you will find interesting:

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To Bear Witness To the Truth: An Unequivocal Moral Obligation for All Christians
by Rev. John Corapi, SOLT, STD
http://www.fathercorapi.com/As...PDF/BEAR_WITNESS.pdf

Every Catholic and, indeed, every Christian faithful to the Gospel, has the moral obligation to bear witness to the truth, “in season and out of season, convenient or inconvenient,” accepted or rejected. This mandate is nothing new, of course. It’s as old as the Old Testament, and as new as the New Testament. Nonetheless, I’m afraid that it has become more necessary than ever to remind ourselves of it.

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Here, Father Corapi is telling us that everyone who wears the mantle of "Christian" should be able to share his faith and to defend his faith. The Bible tells us this in 1 Peter 3:15.

Several questions I have for you in reference to this: Why do all Roman Catholic writings always refer to the Roman Catholic Catechism -- instead of the Bible? Yes, in this article, he does quote the Bible as a subset of the Roman Catholic Catechism. But, putting the Roman Catholic Catechism in authority above the Bible -- is like me quoting a Bible Commentary instead of the Bible. A Bible Commentary can shed light upon and explain what the Scriptures tell us. But, those commentaries will never and should never be the point of authority. Yet, in the Roman Catholic church -- the Roman Catholic Catechism is the highest authority. Why?

And, the second question: In the Bible, Jesus Christ tells us, in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." This, to me, is a promise from the Lord Himself that, because I believe -- I have eternal life. Yet, the Roman Catholic church tells me that believing this promise of Jesus Christ -- is a sin; the Sin of Presumption. How can believing the words of our Lord be a sin?

VP, I am not anti-Roman Catholic. When I was younger, my first wife was a Roman Catholic and I attended the church for about twenty years. I have taken Catechism; I have done quite a bit of reading on the Roman Catholic doctrines and church. I even coached a basketball team at the Roman Catholic school in Norfolk, Virginia, when I lived there. Mother Superior could never understand why I had so much free time to coach the team; but, my job as a Computer Field Engineer for Burroughs Corporation gave me the free time.

So, I am not anti-Catholic. However, I firmly believe that a person is saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else (Ephesians 2:8-9). That NOTHING ELSE includes the church one attends, it includes baptism, it includes what you call Sacraments -- but we in the Protestant faith have fewer, two, and call them Ordinances. We are saved by grace through faith -- plus nothing else.

When you tell me you are a devout Christian; I am happy. This means that you have repented, turned from following the world and turned to following Jesus Christ. Let me emphasize following Jesus Christ -- not another man, be he priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope. We do not follow another man -- we are Christ Followers. And, that is what makes us Christians.

One of the questions I raised in the Question & Answer period when Dr. Pezzotta spoke at our church was, "If a Roman Catholic becomes a born again Christian (John 3:3) -- can he stay in the Roman Catholic church -- and if so, how long before he begins to realize that much of the traditions and rituals are not Biblical, but man made -- and he has to leave?"

While I was expecting him to say was, "Maybe a year" -- because this is how I have answered this question in the past. However, Dr. Anthony Pezzotta's answer to me was, "I stayed in the Roman Catholic church for three hours after becoming a born again Christian."

In Dr. Pezzotta's four page tract, "Should I Leave My Church?" he writes:

Many Catholics wrongly think that they can reject official teachings of dogmas of their church and yet be Catholics. Their church declares the ipso facto excommunicated (that is automatically cut off f rom the Catholic Church and the Body of Christ). This makes them heretics in the eyes of the church. So, for instance, if you do not believe in your heart that the Pope is infallible, that Mary was sinless from conception, that the Mass is a true sacrifice, that there is a purgatory, or if you reject any of the seven sacraments as taught by the church, etc.,, you are no longer a Roman Catholic in the eyes of your church. The text of official definitions of the Pope always ends with the expression: "And if any one dare to believe the contrary, let him be anathema (****ed and excommunicated)."

One last question and I will close. Looking at Father Corapi web site, the banner has a drawing of the Virgin Mary holding a dead Jesus Christ in her arms. Your crucifix always showed a dead Jesus Christ on the cross. Why? Jesus Christ rose from the dead, was resurrected to assure resurrection for all people. Then, He ascended into heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God the Father -- continually interceding for all believers. He is our one and only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5). My Jesus Christ is alive! He is more alive that you and me. He is so alive -- just as you, I, and all believers will be one day when we are taken up to be with Him in heaven, the Rapture (John 14:1-3).

Please do not leave my Jesus Christ dead on the cross; please do not continue to put my Jesus Christ on the cross in daily mass. Celebrate His life! Celebrate that He is alive!

VP, since you have told me that you are a devout Christian I would not question this. But, John 3:3 tells us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And, then He goes on to explain in John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

The "water" is the Word of God -- (Jeremiah 17:13, John 4:10-11) and in John 7:38 we are told, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" When one is a born again Christian; the Word of God, the Living Water, will flow freely from our innermost being. This is why we have such a desire to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the unsaved world; the Word of God is pouring out of us -- the Living Water.

The Spirit is, of course, the Holy Spirit -- for no one can be born again, saved, except through the workings of the Holy Spirit. You and I can sow seeds, we can share the Word of God, the Living Water -- but, this is only to prepare the harvest -- which only the Holy Spirit can accomplish.

Thus, we have salvation when we have the Word of God (Living Water) and the Holy Spirit (Spirit) within us. This happens, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- when we invite Him to come in and be our Lord and Savior.

One last thought, you mentioned that you had looked on Amazon.Com for the book Truth Encounter. The only place to get a new copy is from the Conservative Baptist organization:

CB Southern California
PO Box 2279
Montclair, CA 91763-0779
Phone: 909.482.0728

or by contacting CB Ministries at: cbministries@cbasc.com

And the price is only $9 for a new copy -- a treasure at any price -- but, a steal at this price. You can purchase a single copy for yourself -- or you can purchase a box and share the book with friends and family.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/22/101:01 PM

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Former Member

quote:
Truth Encounter. The only place to get a new copy is from the Conservative Baptist organization:

Please do not leave my Jesus Christ dead on the cross; please do not continue to put my Jesus Christ on the cross in daily mass. Celebrate His life! Celebrate that He is alive!

I will address your questions when I have more time. Especially about Jesus on the cross. The short answer? Jesus on the cross (crucifix) is a constant REMINDER for us of His incredible sacrifice. We believe in the Risen Christ, of course, but I, personally see the crucifix as a reminder of our sinfulness and His sacrifice. You cannot celebrate the Rising without going through the pain of the crucifixion. All have their proper place.

"DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME" is what Jesus commanded at the Last Supper. That's all I can say about Daily Mass. (which I attend as often as possible).
And the book. Yes, the book is available on amazon.com. new copies as well as old...
I'm glad you got a chance to see Fr. Corapi's lectures. He is an incredible man, who has led a life that would knock most of our socks off. He speaks with a credibility not many preachers have, and he is a true witness to the love of God. Protestants and Catholics alike can agree that Fr. Corapi is a beautiful preacher of the true gospel.

3/22/101:24 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi VP,

I am glad to hear that new copies of Truth Encounter are available on Amazon.Com. Maybe someone purchased a box and is selling them there. Is the price the same: $9 per copy?

The last time I talked with Tony Pezzotta, they were not selling the book through book stores or online. Maybe they have changed their mind. I hope so; for this is a great book.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/22/101:29 PM

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Aude SapereHall of Famer

There are as many representations of Our Lord alive, risen, and as both child and adult, I would wager. The crucifixion of Our Lord when He willingly bore the entire sins of the world, dead, living, and yet to come is the most profound act of self-sacrifice the world has known. God humbled Himself into human form and was subject to all our temptations and yet stood faithful until the end.

Christ on the cross is as important as He in glory arisen. Why is that little red lamp lit before the tabernacle except on the evening of Good Friday and until sundown Saturday following? It is to represent Our Lord's sacrifice, His body and blood, offered freely to us at every occasion, for the Lord seeketh not that any be lost, but shall leave the 99 safe in the fold and seek out the one who has strayed.

Sorry there is not enough blood or war in this post and I cannot state for fact that I said a magic prayer and have my eternal security card and am bound to ride that glory train when the earth is in its war. I just hope that they allow dogs on the train, because I think it might be rather a boring trip with only Tim LaHaye readers for company.

Father Corapi rocks. Now that is good teaching and preaching. I wonder what Francis' voice would have been like in the flesh or Martin King's?

3/22/104:28 PM

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Former Member

You know what? I was going to just leave my answer about your troubles with the crucifix as is..but the more I think about it, I am deeply troubled that someone that doesn't have "use" for the image of the Crucified Christ probably best not be doling out "Christian" advice.
I mean, really. Does it bother you to see Jesus on the cross? REALLY??? Well a certain (non-Catholic) song comes to mind: The refrain goes something like this:
"I'll never know how much it cost, to see my sins up on that cross".
Most Christians look at the crucifix as a reminder of our sinfulness, and the incredible ultimate sacrifice that Jesus (GOD HIMSELF) made for us. The crucifix bothers you????? I will from now on take everything you say with a pound of salt. That is just abhorent in so many ways, from a Christian man!

3/22/104:55 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
You know what? I was going to just leave my answer about your troubles with the crucifix as is..but the more I think about it, I am deeply troubled that someone that doesn't have "use" for the image of the Crucified Christ probably best not be doling out "Christian" advice. I mean, really. Does it bother you to see Jesus on the cross? REALLY??? Well a certain (non-Catholic) song comes to mind: The refrain goes something like this: "I'll never know how much it cost, to see my sins upon that cross".

Most Christians look at the crucifix as a reminder of our sinfulness, and the incredible ultimate sacrifice that Jesus (GOD HIMSELF) made for us. The crucifix bothers you????? I will from now on take everything you say with a pound of salt. That is just abhorrent in so many ways, from a Christian man!

Hi VP,

First, let me say that if you are a Christ Follower, a Christian believer -- I praise God; for you and I both will spend eternity with Him. We will be able to fellowship with Him and with one another -- for eternity. We can agree to disagree on issues such as transubstantiation, i.e., whether the elements we take in communion actually become the body and blood of Christ in the hands of the priest -- or whether, as we Protestants believe, we take bread and grape juice in symbolic remembrance of what He did for us.

And, we can agree to disagree on issues such as sacraments, infant baptism, praying to statues of dead saints, etc. If these things bring you closer to God in worship; that is fine. I do not do these things in my worship. But, in reality, we both are saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. These other issues and what we call them are interesting to discuss; but, they do not affect our salvation.

Does the crucifix bother me? Not really, for I know He is no longer dead and on the cross. Believe it or not, I still have my rosary and my Saint Joseph Missal from my early exploration of the Roman Catholic church. Yet, when I open the missal, the first page has a picture of a bloody Jesus hanging on a cross -- my Savior is not still hanging on a cross.

In my missal, it tells me, "Now in the Mass, Jesus again offers to His Father the suffering and death He endured for us on Calvary." It goes on to say, "In the Mass, . . . it is not only Jesus who offers Himself to His Father on the altar, and not only is He offered by the celebrating priest, but also by ALL those participating in the Mass." In John 19:30, Jesus declared, "It is finished!" Yet, in the Mass, we are told that it is not finished; but, He must be offered on the altar every day, every week.

Most Christians look at the cross as a reminder of what Jesus Christ did for us. You will not walk into Protestant churches and find Jesus hanging on the cross. You will find the cross -- but, Jesus Christ rose from the dead; He ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father, continually interceding for all believers. He is no longer on the cross; just as He is no longer an infant in the arms of His earthly mother.

In the song you mentioned, Here I Am To Worship, the words are: I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross.

You will notice that it says "cross" not "crucifix" -- and "my sins upon that cross." My Savior is no longer on the cross; but He nailed my sins to that cross -- and that is why the cross is so important to me. My Savior died upon that cross to offer salvation to all who will receive it; this He did to defeat Satan. You will recall that on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" (John 19:30). We do not continue crucifying Jesus Christ. He died ONCE, for all.

Then, He rose from the grave, resurrected, to defeat death and to promise resurrection for ALL people: believers to life with Him eternally; non-believers to eternal self condemnation.

And, there is another song which always brings tears to my eyes. Yet, you will notice that it is also speaking of the past tense: "When He Was On The Cross, I Was On His Mind." He is no longer on the cross; He is in heaven preparing to bring His church to be where He is today. We find this in John 14:1-3, His personal description of the coming Rapture; when He will come in the clouds to take His church out of this world.

WHEN HE WAS ON THE CROSS, I WAS ON HIS MIND
Written by: Ronnie Hinson & Mike Payne

I’m not on an ego trip, I’m nothing on my own
I make mistakes and sometimes slip, Just common flesh and bone,
But I’ll prove some day just why I say, I’m of a special kind
For when He was on the cross, I was on His mind

A look of love was on His face, The thorns were in His head
The blood was on that scarlet robe, And stained it crimson red
Though His eyes were on the crowd that day, He looked ahead in time
For when He was on the cross, I was on His mind

He knew me, yet He loved me,
He whose glory makes the Heavens shine
So unworthy, of such mercy,
For when He was on the cross, I was on His mind,
For when He was on the cross, I was on His mind.

VP, I would never say you are not a saved believer, just as I am. But, when you say, "The crucifix bothers you? I will from now on take everything you say with a pound of salt. That is just abhorent in so many ways, from a Christian man!" -- I am sorry you feel this way. But, my Savior is not hanging on a cross; He is in heaven.

While I disagree with you when you say that the communion elements become the body and blood of Jesus Christ when in the hands of the priest -- I do not call you abhorent for believing that. If I recall, you were the one who was asking, in a new discussion, why we cannot have civil discussions on the Religion Forum -- without name calling.

Then, you tell me I am abhorent because I say that my Savior is no longer hanging on a bloody cross. I am sorry you feel that way. However, the cross represents to me what my Savior did for me -- before He rose and ascended into heaven to plead my defense before the Father.

And, I know that He is coming IN the clouds to take me and all Christian believers home with Him, the Rapture. Then, I know that He will return at the end of the Tribulation WITH the clouds, the massive number of Christian believers who will return with Him in His Second Coming -- to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. And, then, glorious eternity. Praise the Lord!.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/22/107:34 PM

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smokey1Hall of Famer

quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Father Corapi rocks. Now that is good teaching and preaching. I wonder what Francis' voice would have been like in the flesh or Martin King's?

Do you ever listen to Gus Lloyd on the Catholic Channel, Sirius Radio? He is very good, reminds me of Fr. Corapi.

3/22/108:34 PM

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Aude SapereHall of Famer

Now I can't go that far over towards Rome, or the AB of Canterbury would whip me, according to Beegee.

Actually, I do not have Sirius, I only know the ones on EWTV. Oddly for some to believer, but I like a good sermon without regard to its source, so long as no snakes are harmed in the audition or performance! I have been downloading a lot of old Fulton J. Sheen sermons from Youtube lately, sad that he and the old Lutheran Hour are the last vestiges of a once lively TV and radio format not given over to touting their own books, manna, and how to get rich by giving exactly $64.64, see God don't like the poor and wants us all rich, I am given to take. I oddly thought that the Kingdom of Heaven was like the least of His.

3/22/109:37 PM

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quote:
praying to statues of dead saints, etc.

This is a common misconception for many. It's a falsehood. We don't pray to statues. period. We pray to God, we pray to Mary for her intercession. We ask the Saints to plea for us.
And yeah, I said we shouldn't be name calling. I didn't call you any names. But the fact is, it is distressing to me that you are clearly bothered by Christ on the Cross, or the dead Jesus in his Blessed Mothers arms.....
Have you ever been to Stations of the Cross? It's a Lenten prayer in which we fully enter into the suffering of Christ. Beautiful service. It's my opinion that you can't appreciate the rising if you don't commemorate the dying. I am sorry if I offended you, but I was totally shocked for such a Christian man to say "Take Jesus down from the cross".

3/22/1010:40 PM

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Former Member

quote:
In the song you mentioned, Here I Am To Worship, the words are: I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross.

You will notice that it says "cross" not "crucifix" -- and "my sins upon that cross

Uh...exactly. It's a cross that Jesus carried, and when he died it became a crucifix. What do you think the author is referring to when he "sees his sins"???? He is referring to Jesus nailed to the cross for the sake of our sinfulness. We all need to look at Jesus on the crucifix to be mindful of his sacrifice. I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic in your arguement. Au contraire, I think it just proved my point.

3/22/1011:40 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
In the song you mentioned, Here I Am To Worship, the words are: I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross.

You will notice that it says "cross" not "crucifix" -- and "my sins upon that cross

Uh...exactly. It's a cross that Jesus carried, and when he died it became a crucifix. What do you think the author is referring to when he "sees his sins"???? He is referring to Jesus nailed to the cross for the sake of our sinfulness. We all need to look at Jesus on the crucifix to be mindful of his sacrifice. I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic in your arguement. Au contraire, I think it just proved my point.

Hi VP,

Why would anyone want to look at a "dead Savior" -- when we KNOW that He is alive, very alive -- and fulfilling what He told us in John 14:1-3 -- preparing a place for all believers in heaven? And, we know that He is alive and acting as our Mediator, our ONLY Mediator, between us and God the Father.

When, on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" -- why do you want to keep putting Him back on the cross?

"It is finished!" means that there is no more to do, nothing else required to accomplish His mission on earth -- to provide atonement, to offer eternal salvation to all who will receive this free gift.

Yet, you want to keep hanging Him on a bloody cross and crucifying Him over and over. No, my Friend, in the words of our Lord -- "IT IS FINISHED!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/23/103:53 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, we can agree to disagree on issues such as sacraments, infant baptism, praying to statues of dead saints, etc. If these things bring you closer to God in worship; that is fine. I do not do these things in my worship.

This is a common misconception for many. It's a falsehood. We don't pray to statues. period. We pray to God, we pray to Mary for her intercession. We ask the Saints to plea for us.

And yeah, I said we shouldn't be name calling. I didn't call you any names. But the fact is, it is distressing to me that you are clearly bothered by Christ on the Cross, or the dead Jesus in his Blessed Mothers arms.....

Have you ever been to Stations of the Cross? It's a Lenten prayer in which we fully enter into the suffering of Christ. Beautiful service. It's my opinion that you can't appreciate the rising if you don't commemorate the dying. I am sorry if I offended you, but I was totally shocked for such a Christian man to say "Take Jesus down from the cross."

Hi VP,

Yes, my Jesus Christ is NOT on a cross -- He is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, in heaven -- interceding for all believers. When I see an empty cross, I am reminded of the price He paid to offer me salvation.

Regarding the Stations Of The Cross -- where do we find this in the Bible?

And, regarding praying to statues of dead saints -- yes, I have seen this done many times in the Roman Catholic church -- I did it myself before I found my way into the arms of Jesus Christ. Whether those dead saints be Joseph, Peter, Mary, etc. -- they are still dead and cannot hear our prayers or intercede for us in any way. They are long dead.

A few years ago, I was having a discussion with a good friend, Daniel, who was Roman Catholic. When we talked about praying to Mary, he said the same as you -- we are asking the earthly mother of Jesus Christ to intercede for us. He told me, "Bill, you have an intercessory prayer chain on the internet. You ask people to pray for other people. That is what we do with Mary and the other saints."

I told him, "Daniel, there is one huge difference. The people who receive my requests to pray for our friends -- are alive. They are alive and can pray to God in intercession for others. The saints you pray to have been dead for thousands of years. They cannot hear your prayers."

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

VP, you tell me, "And yeah, I said we shouldn't be name calling. I didn't call you any names."

Calling someone abhorrent is name calling. If you truly want civil discussions on the Religion Forum -- it must start with you and me. I do not consider you abhorrent -- or anything other than a professed Christian brother who has different beliefs than me. Why am I abhorrent to you?

This is taken from a recent post:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

VP, I would never say you are not a saved believer, just as I am. But, when you say, "The crucifix bothers you? I will from now on take everything you say with a pound of salt. That is just abhorrent in so many ways, from a Christian man!" -- I am sorry you feel this way. But, my Savior is not hanging on a cross; He is in heaven.

While I disagree with you when you say that the communion elements become the body and blood of Jesus Christ when in the hands of the priest -- I do not call you abhorrent for believing that. If I recall, you were the one who was asking, in a new discussion, why we cannot have civil discussions on the Religion Forum -- without name calling.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One last thought and I will close this post.

In a recent post, I wrote, "And, the second question: In the Bible, Jesus Christ tells us, in John 6:47, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.' This, to me, is a promise from the Lord Himself that, because I believe -- I have eternal life. Yet, the Roman Catholic church tells me that believing this promise of Jesus Christ -- is a sin; the 'Sin of Presumption.' How can believing the words of our Lord be a sin?"

Please explain the Roman Catholic Sin of Presumption -- and do you believe it? If so, how do you justify it from Scripture?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/23/104:43 AM

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smokey1Hall of Famer

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
In the song you mentioned, Here I Am To Worship, the words are: I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross.

You will notice that it says "cross" not "crucifix" -- and "my sins upon that cross

Did you see the movie "Passion of the Christ?"
Uh...exactly. It's a cross that Jesus carried, and when he died it became a crucifix. What do you think the author is referring to when he "sees his sins"???? He is referring to Jesus nailed to the cross for the sake of our sinfulness. We all need to look at Jesus on the crucifix to be mindful of his sacrifice. I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic in your arguement. Au contraire, I think it just proved my point.

Hi VP,

Why would anyone want to look at a "dead Savior" -- when we KNOW that He is alive, very alive -- and fulfilling what He told us in John 14:1-3 -- preparing a place for all believers in heaven? And, we know that He is alive and acting as our Mediator, our ONLY Mediator, between us and God the Father.

When, on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" -- why do you want to keep putting Him back on the cross?

"It is finished!" means that there is no more to do, nothing else required to accomplish His mission on earth -- to provide atonement, to offer eternal salvation to all who will receive this free gift.

Yet, you want to keep hanging Him on a bloody cross and crucifying Him over and over. No, my Friend, in the words of our Lord -- "IT IS FINISHED!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

3/23/105:03 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi Smokey,

I presume you added the question: "Did you see the movie 'Passion of the Christ?'"

Yes, I saw the movie and I think that Mel Gibson did a great job in portraying the suffering our Lord went through on the cross -- to "pay in full" our sin debt. Yes, I was very touched by what I saw portrayed on the screen -- for I know my Lord suffered even more than could be shown.

However, my point is that He is no longer on the cross. He has moved beyond that -- He died on the cross to defeat Satan; He rose from the grave to defeat death. His resurrection made possible the resurrection of all people into eternal life: believers to eternal life with God; non-believers to eternal self condemnation with Satan. The cross, like the empty tomb -- are reminders of what He did for us -- and we should not keep putting Him back on the cross and back into the tomb.

Jesus Christ is ALIVE! I love the Bill & Gloria Gaither song, "Because He Lives!" This song declares what we Christians know: MY SAVIOR LIVES! I will never forget the first time I heard this song. In the early 1990s, a close friend lay near death from cancer and, at his wife's request, we held a memorial service at their home. Even though Zenon was comatose; she felt that he could hear and know our love for him. This was his favorite song -- and we sang it for him that evening. He went home to be with his Lord later that night.

You will notice that the song tells us: HE LIVES!

BECAUSE HE LIVES
By Bill & Gloria Gaither

God Sent His Son, They Called Him Jesus;
He Came To Love, Heal, And Forgive.
He Lived And Died To Buy My Pardon;
An Empty Grave Is There To Prove My Savior Lives.

Chorus:
Because He Lives, I Can Face Tomorrow
Because He Lives, All Fear Is Gone
Because I Know He Holds The Future
And Life Is Worth The Living -- Just Because He Lives

How Sweet To Hold A Newborn Baby,
And Feel The Pride And Joy He Gives;
But Greater Still The Calm Assurance:
This Child Can Face Uncertain Day Because He Lives.

And Then One Day I'll Cross The River;
I'll Fight Life's Final War With Pain.
And Then, As Death Gives Way To Vict'ry,
I'll See The Lights Of Glory And I'll Know He Reigns.

Smokey, while I was touched by the movie -- I celebrate the fact that My Savior Lives.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/23/105:35 AM

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quote:
Yes, my Jesus Christ is NOT on a cross -- He is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, in heaven -- interceding for all believers. When I see an empty cross, I am reminded of the price He paid to offer me salvation.

Regarding the Stations Of The Cross -- where do we find this in the Bible?

And, regarding praying to statues of dead saints -- yes, I have seen this done many times in the Roman Catholic church -- I did it myself before I found my way into the arms of Jesus Christ. Whether those dead saints be Joseph, Peter, Mary, etc. -- they are still dead and cannot hear our prayers or intercede for us in any way. They are long dead.

Bill,
You will find the Stations of the Cross in the Bible in the Passions Readings, in each of the Gospels. They all start with Pontius Pilate, and end with the crucifixion of our Lord.
I already apologized to you for being harsh-- i admitted that I was somewhat "ticked off" about your problem with the crucifix. No need to rehash this.
As for praying to statues???? The Catholics with whom you were praying to statues were misguided, I'm afraid. They led you wrong. Nothing more..
Now, you say that praying to Saints is useless because they are "long dead"??? Are they not raised with the Risen Lord? Have they not received their Heavenly Reward and rejoice in the Glory of Christ??

3/23/106:29 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi VP,

You tell me, "Bill, You will find the Stations of the Cross in the Bible in the Passions Readings, in each of the Gospels. They all start with Pontius Pilate, and end with the crucifixion of our Lord."

Can you give me specific Scripture verses? Or are the Stations Of The Cross taken from the Roman Catholic Traditions; something taught in the RC Catechism? I find The Way Of The Cross in my copy of the Saint Joseph Missal -- but, my NAS Bible does not have the "Passion Readings."

Then, you say, "I already apologized to you for being harsh-- i admitted that I was somewhat "ticked off" about your problem with the crucifix. No need to rehash this."

Sorry, I must have missed that. But, if you say you did; then, I accept it. But, just curious, the only reference I found in your posts to this is: "And yeah, I said we shouldn't be name calling. I didn't call you any names. But the fact is, it is distressing to me that you are clearly bothered by Christ on the Cross, or the dead Jesus in his Blessed Mothers arms....."

I must assume that this is the apology you are speaking of -- for calling me abhorrent. Not a problem; I have been called worse.

Next, you tell me, "As for praying to statues???? The Catholics with whom you were praying to statues were misguided, I'm afraid. They led you wrong. Nothing more."

Are you telling me that you have never knelt before a statue of Mary -- or Joseph -- or some of the other saint statues in a church -- and prayed to that saint?

Finally, you tell me, "Now, you say that praying to Saints is useless because they are "long dead"??? Are they not raised with the Risen Lord? Have they not received their Heavenly Reward and rejoice in the Glory of Christ??"

Yes, they have all died and gone on to their heavenly rewards in Jesus Christ. They are in heaven. But, just as I cannot pray to my own mother who went home to be with the Lord in 1994 -- I cannot pray to any others who have departed this life and gone on to their Heavenly Reward.

We are told clearly in 1 Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ in our ONE AND ONLY Mediator between us and God the Father. Not Mary, not Joseph, not Peter -- and not my dear mother. We are told to pray to God, in the name of Jesus Christ -- and no one else.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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3/23/107:22 AM

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quote:
Next, you tell me, "As for praying to statues???? The Catholics with whom you were praying to statues were misguided, I'm afraid. They led you wrong. Nothing more."

Are you telling me that you have never knelt before a statue of Mary -- or Joseph -- or some of the other saint statues in a church -- and prayed to that saint?

A statue is something to remind us of our faith, Bill. Just like a cross, crucifix, and other relics...If one were to light a candle by a statue of the Blessed Virgin, and say a prayer, do we think the statue is going to answer us??? Of course not. We don't pray to statues. Surely you know this, however, having been through catechism.
We ask for the intercession of Mary and all the Saints. They don't answer prayers. Why do you have issue with asking the Blessed Mother for a little help? She was Assumed, after all, into Heaven to share eternity with her Son- her body never to know decay. Don't you think she can hear us? I know she can.

and does.
And I have no doubt that your mother was a lovely woman. Unfortunately, she was only YOUR mother, not the Mother of Heaven and Earth. There is a pretty clear distinction.

3/23/1012:13 PM

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