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The Pre-Wrath Rapture: Objections to the Concept

 

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Are there any objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept?

I have a number of objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept of the Rapture's timing.

 

1) The Name — I object to the name given the viewpoint by its proponents. The name is both confusing and vague. It is confusing because both the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views are "Pre- Wrath." The Pre-Trib view argues that the entire 7 years of the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week of Years) constitutes a pouring out of the wrath of God. The Mid-Trib view takes the position that only the second half of the Tribulation is the period of God's wrath. So, Rosenthal's name for his viewpoint does not distinguish it from the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views. All three are prewrath views.

 

The "Pre-Wrath" name is also vague because it does not give a clue as to when the Rapture occurs in relation to the Tribulation. The name of the Pre-Trib view signifies a belief that the Rapture will occur before (pre) the Tribulation begins. The name of the Mid-Trib view clearly indicates a belief that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation. The name of the Post-Trib view puts the Rapture after (post) the Tribulation. But the name, "Pre-Wrath" gives no indication of when the Rapture will occur with relation to the Tribulation.

 

For that reason, I have decided to call the "Pre-Wrath" view the Three-Quarters Tribulation Rapture viewpoint. And I will be abbreviating it throughout the rest of this article as the "3/4 Trib Rapture." I have given it that name because its proponents believe the Rapture will occur about three-quarters of the way through the Tribulation, or shortly thereafter.

 

2) The Chronology — I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel's 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this.

 

As you can see in the diagram above, the Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, and the Bowl Judgments are appended to a 30 day period after the close of Daniel's 70th Week!

 

3) Imminence — One of my strongest objections to the 3/4 Trib view is its destruction of the imminence of the Lord's return. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord could return at any moment and that we should live looking for His return (Matthew 24:44, 1 Corinthians 1:7, Philippians 3:20, Philippians 4:5, Colossians 3: 4, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, Titus 2:13, and Revelation 16:15).

 

The 3/4 Trib view says the Lord cannot return until after the Antichrist appears, the Jewish Temple has been rebuilt and the world has suffered through about 5 years of the wrath of Man and Satan. Thus, according to the 3/4 Trib view, we should be living looking for the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ.

 

Rosenthal asserts that the Bible never says that any prophesied end time events could not occur before the Rapture. He is correct. The re-establishment of Israel is an example. The war of Gog & Magog could prove to be another example. Imminency does not preclude the fulfillment of some end time prophecies before the Rapture. Rather, it asserts that none have to happen before the Rapture can occur.

 

4) The Wrath of God — Another strong objection I have to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That's why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world's political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son.

 

Further, the Bible portrays God pouring out His wrath both directly (Sodom and Gomorrah) and indirectly (the destruction of both Israel and Judah). God poured out His wrath upon the rebellious northern nation of Israel by allowing the Assyrians to conquer it. He even referred to the Assyrians as "the rod of My anger" (Isaiah 10:5) and "My war-club" (Jeremiah 51:20).

 

When the prophet Habak*** complained about God doing nothing about the evil of the southern nation of Judah, the Lord revealed that He was going to pour out His wrath on that nation through Babylon (Habak*** 1:6). And when the Lord was finished with Babylon, He raised up the Medes and Persians to conquer the Babylonian Empire, referring to the conquering army as "My consecrated ones" (Isaiah 13:3).

 

During Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years, much of the wrath of God will be executed through the Antichrist, but it is still the wrath of God.

 

5) The Tribulation — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view denies that the first half of Daniel's 70th Week is part of the Tribulation. The fact of the matter is that both halves of Daniel's 70th Week are referred to in the Scriptures as a time of tribulation. Matthew 24:9 refers to the first half as "tribulation," and Matthew 24:21 classifies the second half as "great tribulation." Incidentally, Jesus' reference to the second half as the "great tribulation" does not mean it will be worse than the first half. Rather, Jesus called it that because He was speaking to a Jewish audience, and the second half of the Tribulation will be when the Antichrist will try to annihilate the Jews.

 

6) The Purpose of Daniel's 70th Week — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view distorts the purpose of Daniel's 70th Week. Daniel 9:24-27 makes it clear that the purpose of Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is to accomplish six things among the Jewish people:

  1. To finish transgression
  2. To make an end of sin
  3. To make atonement for iniquity
  4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
  5. To seal up vision and prophecy
  6. To anoint the most Holy Place

 

Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) of the prophecy had nothing to do with the Church, neither does the final week of years. The last seven year period of Daniel's prophecy is about the accomplishment of the purposes listed above among the Jewish people. Accordingly, the entire period of Daniel's 70th Week is referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "the time of Jacob's trouble." There is no purpose for the Church during Daniel's 70th Week.

 

In the third and last part of this look at the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, we'll consider more objections to the viewpoint

 

http://www.lamblion.us/2014/12...e-objections-to.html

 

 

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Vic, my Friend,

 

Dr. David Reagan is NOT arguing against the Rapture.  His article is showing reasons that the PreWrath Rapture cannot be true.

 

There are differing views of the Rapture.  First, there are those, i.e., Amillennialist, who do not believe in a Rapture -- and PostTribulationist who believe in sort of an after-the-fact Rapture.

 

However, even among those of us who believe and know the Rapture will occur -- there are differing factions:

 

First, there are we who believe the Bible teaches a PreTribulation Rapture of the church from this mortal world -- BEFORE the seven year Tribulation begins.   This is the only Rapture view which fits with His teaching of an Imminent Rapture, i.e., that no one can know the time or day it will occur.

 

And, there are those who believe in a MidTribulation Rapture, that the Rapture will occur half way through the seven year Tribulation.  However, the teaching of an Imminent Rapture disproves that -- for if it occurs 3 1/12 years after the Tribulation begins -- everyone will know the time and day it will occur.

 

There is the PreWrath Rapture which Dr. Reagan is refuting, which says that the Rapture will occur 3/5 of the way through the seven year Tribulation.  And, again the teaching of an Imminent Rapture disproves that belief.

 

Finally, the PostTribulation proponents teach that we will be Raptured and meet Christ in the air as He is coming back to earth for His Second Coming.  Believers will meet him in the air, receive our immortal bodies, and return with Him.  The Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9) which happens in heaven before His Second Coming disproves that teaching.

 

So, the ONLY Rapture teaching which is Biblical is the PreTribulation Rapture of the church, the body of believers, the bride of Christ -- BEFORE the seven year Tribulation begins.

 

Vic, my Friend, when you copy/paste from a mystery writer -- make sure you understand what he/she is saying -- before you copy/paste it.  You discussion title "Arguments against the "Rapture..." does not match the article's intent nor the writer's beliefs.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

The Pre-Wrath Rapture: Objections to the Concept

 

By

Are there any objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept?

I have a number of objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept of the Rapture's timing.

 

1) The Name — I object to the name given the viewpoint by its proponents. The name is both confusing and vague. It is confusing because both the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views are "Pre- Wrath." The Pre-Trib view argues that the entire 7 years of the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week of Years) constitutes a pouring out of the wrath of God. The Mid-Trib view takes the position that only the second half of the Tribulation is the period of God's wrath. So, Rosenthal's name for his viewpoint does not distinguish it from the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views. All three are prewrath views.

 

The "Pre-Wrath" name is also vague because it does not give a clue as to when the Rapture occurs in relation to the Tribulation. The name of the Pre-Trib view signifies a belief that the Rapture will occur before (pre) the Tribulation begins. The name of the Mid-Trib view clearly indicates a belief that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation. The name of the Post-Trib view puts the Rapture after (post) the Tribulation. But the name, "Pre-Wrath" gives no indication of when the Rapture will occur with relation to the Tribulation.

 

For that reason, I have decided to call the "Pre-Wrath" view the Three-Quarters Tribulation Rapture viewpoint. And I will be abbreviating it throughout the rest of this article as the "3/4 Trib Rapture." I have given it that name because its proponents believe the Rapture will occur about three-quarters of the way through the Tribulation, or shortly thereafter.

 

2) The Chronology — I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel's 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this.

 

As you can see in the diagram above, the Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, and the Bowl Judgments are appended to a 30 day period after the close of Daniel's 70th Week!

 

3) Imminence — One of my strongest objections to the 3/4 Trib view is its destruction of the imminence of the Lord's return. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord could return at any moment and that we should live looking for His return (Matthew 24:44, 1 Corinthians 1:7, Philippians 3:20, Philippians 4:5, Colossians 3: 4, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, Titus 2:13, and Revelation 16:15).

 

The 3/4 Trib view says the Lord cannot return until after the Antichrist appears, the Jewish Temple has been rebuilt and the world has suffered through about 5 years of the wrath of Man and Satan. Thus, according to the 3/4 Trib view, we should be living looking for the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ.

 

Rosenthal asserts that the Bible never says that any prophesied end time events could not occur before the Rapture. He is correct. The re-establishment of Israel is an example. The war of Gog & Magog could prove to be another example. Imminency does not preclude the fulfillment of some end time prophecies before the Rapture. Rather, it asserts that none have to happen before the Rapture can occur.

 

4) The Wrath of God — Another strong objection I have to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That's why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world's political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son.

 

Further, the Bible portrays God pouring out His wrath both directly (Sodom and Gomorrah) and indirectly (the destruction of both Israel and Judah). God poured out His wrath upon the rebellious northern nation of Israel by allowing the Assyrians to conquer it. He even referred to the Assyrians as "the rod of My anger" (Isaiah 10:5) and "My war-club" (Jeremiah 51:20).

 

When the prophet Habak*** complained about God doing nothing about the evil of the southern nation of Judah, the Lord revealed that He was going to pour out His wrath on that nation through Babylon (Habak*** 1:6). And when the Lord was finished with Babylon, He raised up the Medes and Persians to conquer the Babylonian Empire, referring to the conquering army as "My consecrated ones" (Isaiah 13:3).

 

During Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years, much of the wrath of God will be executed through the Antichrist, but it is still the wrath of God.

 

5) The Tribulation — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view denies that the first half of Daniel's 70th Week is part of the Tribulation. The fact of the matter is that both halves of Daniel's 70th Week are referred to in the Scriptures as a time of tribulation. Matthew 24:9 refers to the first half as "tribulation," and Matthew 24:21 classifies the second half as "great tribulation." Incidentally, Jesus' reference to the second half as the "great tribulation" does not mean it will be worse than the first half. Rather, Jesus called it that because He was speaking to a Jewish audience, and the second half of the Tribulation will be when the Antichrist will try to annihilate the Jews.

 

6) The Purpose of Daniel's 70th Week — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view distorts the purpose of Daniel's 70th Week. Daniel 9:24-27 makes it clear that the purpose of Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is to accomplish six things among the Jewish people:

  1. To finish transgression
  2. To make an end of sin
  3. To make atonement for iniquity
  4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
  5. To seal up vision and prophecy
  6. To anoint the most Holy Place

 

Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) of the prophecy had nothing to do with the Church, neither does the final week of years. The last seven year period of Daniel's prophecy is about the accomplishment of the purposes listed above among the Jewish people. Accordingly, the entire period of Daniel's 70th Week is referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "the time of Jacob's trouble." There is no purpose for the Church during Daniel's 70th Week.

 

In the third and last part of this look at the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, we'll consider more objections to the viewpoint

 

http://www.lamblion.us/2014/12...e-objections-to.html

 

 

--------------------------------

No one should be upset about a non existent Rapture. There is a biblical

account of the happenings when Jesus is suppose to appear in the Heavens.

The verses from, I Thessalonians 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:38-41. Paul

teaches about the coming of Christ but nowhere are there comings, only

one more. The birth and the second and it isn't a secret. An angel is said

to blow a horn as big as a Dodge truck while the whole world will be able

to see Jesus. I'm still looking for the seven year tribulation. If someone

wants to call this the Rapture, fine. It's just saying Jesus is coming to earth.

He just has a few things to wrap up. No big deal, unless you're a liar....huh

 

 

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
 
No one should be upset about a non existent Rapture.  There is a biblical account of the happenings when Jesus is suppose to appear in the Heavens.  The verses from, I Thessalonians 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:38-41.  Paul teaches about the coming of Christ but nowhere are there comings, only one more.  The birth and the second and it isn't a secret.  An angel is said to blow a horn as big as a Dodge truck while the whole world will be able to see Jesus.  I'm still looking for the seven year tribulation.  If someone wants to call this the Rapture, fine.  It's just saying Jesus is coming to earth.  He just has a few things to wrap up.  No big deal, unless you're a liar....huh.  

Vic, my Friend,

 

Once again, you have missed the whole point of my previous post.  My point being that you have tried to use Dr. David Reagan's article to prove that the Rapture will not happen -- when what he is writing about is a mistaken belief about the Rapture.  There are people who teach that the Rapture will occur as what they call the PreWrath Rapture, i.e., that it will occur 3/5 of the way through the seven year Tribulation.  

 

This teaching is supported by Marvin Rosenthal in his book "The Pre-Wrath Rapture Of The Church" and by Robert Van Kampen in his book "The Sign."  I have both books in my personal liberary -- and, like Dr. Reagan, find that they both totally ignore the teaching given to us by Jesus Christ -- that the Rapture of the church is "imminent" - meaning that no one can know the time, day, or year (Acts 1:7, Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32).  

 

A good article explaining this can be found in:

 

"When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-tribulation.html

 

Also, at the bottom of that article you will find links that discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the different views of the Rapture.

 

Vic, my Friend, it appears that because you are walking in a field you know little about -- when you saw Dr. Reagan's rebuttal of the PreWrath Rapture - you thought he was denying the Rapture.  That is not true.  Dr. Reagan believes and teaches the PreTribulation Rapture and the if you will follow the article found in the URL link you gave -- to his web site, you will find many good links to writings and web sites supporting the PreTrib Rapture.

 

By the way, you reference 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:38-41.   Yes, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 50:50-53 are pointing to the Rapture.  But, Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking of His Second Coming, not the Rapture. The Rapture is imminent, i.e., no one knows when it will happen. His Second Coming well be exactly seven years from the start of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27).  So, everyone alive when the Tribulation begins -- and who will study the Bible -- will be able to tell you almost to the hour and day when His Second Coming will occur.

 

Now, if this makes you want to repost your whole initial post again and again -- just to prove that you can have the last word, be my guest.   If you want to know more about the Rapture -- visit the links found in Dr. Reagan's ministry web site.

 

God bless, have  a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Last edited by Bill Gray
 
Since I am the one that advocates the PreWrath position I will make some comments on the post.  I will put my post within the document/reply and will put them in BLUE text.
 
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

The Pre-Wrath Rapture: Objections to the Concept

 

By

Are there any objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept?

I have a number of objections to the Pre-Wrath Rapture concept of the Rapture's timing.

 

1) The Name — I object to the name given the viewpoint by its proponents. The name is both confusing and vague. It is confusing because both the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views are "Pre- Wrath." The Pre-Trib view argues that the entire 7 years of the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week of Years) constitutes a pouring out of the wrath of God. The Mid-Trib view takes the position that only the second half of the Tribulation is the period of God's wrath. So, Rosenthal's name for his viewpoint does not distinguish it from the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views. All three are prewrath views.

 

The "Pre-Wrath" name is also vague because it does not give a clue as to when the Rapture occurs in relation to the Tribulation. The name of the Pre-Trib view signifies a belief that the Rapture will occur before (pre) the Tribulation begins. The name of the Mid-Trib view clearly indicates a belief that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation. The name of the Post-Trib view puts the Rapture after (post) the Tribulation. But the name, "Pre-Wrath" gives no indication of when the Rapture will occur with relation to the Tribulation.

 

For that reason, I have decided to call the "Pre-Wrath" view the Three-Quarters Tribulation Rapture viewpoint. And I will be abbreviating it throughout the rest of this article as the "3/4 Trib Rapture." I have given it that name because its proponents believe the Rapture will occur about three-quarters of the way through the Tribulation, or shortly thereafter.

My Comment on section 1)  While I didn't coin the term I also can see why the use of it even though technically the pre-trib and mid-trig could be considered PreWrath.  Given though the main thrust of the Rapture timing position I feel that it is a very accurate portrayal in that the teaching is that the Rapture occurs immediately before God's Wrath is released upon Earth.  Contrary to the author's assertion I think calling it 3/4 Trib is far more confusing and is more defining a time point whereas the PreWrath experts and advocates don't focus on calculating a time although certain guesses or suggestions can be made once the 7 year agreement is signed between Antichrist and Israel.  That is using Scripture itself and times given by the Scriptures to form estimates.

 

2) The Chronology — I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel's 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this.

 

As you can see in the diagram above, the Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, and the Bowl Judgments are appended to a 30 day period after the close of Daniel's 70th Week!

It is not surprising that Mr. Reagan believes as he does for he has already, like Bill, become rigid in his position and thus defines others based upon not Scripture but upon his own understanding or that's the way I see it.  As for the Chronology of the Book of Revelation the Pre-Wrath Rapture proponents take scripture literally where it should be taken literally and in sequential order.   Nothing in the PreWrath positions statements contradict the timing as laid out in Revelation.  As the Seals unfold a timeline is laid out and described.  Not until the 7th Seal does the Wrath of God get revealed.   The first Six seals clearly are parallel to Matthew 24:4-31 and also are in sequence, perfect sequence even as described in Daniel.

 

3) Imminence — One of my strongest objections to the 3/4 Trib view is its destruction of the imminence of the Lord's return. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord could return at any moment and that we should live looking for His return (

I have put the verses listed for this argument in list order so that I can comment to each.  With reference to imminence, which I do not believe is Scriptural based on several scriptures such as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4  

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (New Century Version)
3  Do not let anyone fool you in any way. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears.
4  He will be against and put himself above anything called God or anything that people worship. And that Man of Evil will even go into God’s Temple and sit there and say that he is God. 

Clearly this passage tells the Thessalonians, who thought the rapture already happened, that there are things that must precede the rapture/Day of the Lord.  ( I put both back to back because it appears that Paul also felt that the two were one after the other from the way he describes it)

 

Matthew 24:44Matthew 24:44 (New Century Version)  So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at a time you don’t expect him.  No argument from me here as this statement applies regardless of which view you have.  Remember that this was written from the words of Christ to those who ask about the end times.  Note that at the time the statement was issued there was no way immanence was a factor as there was very much that had to happen including Israel being disbanded and then brought back together as a nation and the temple being torn down.  So using this verse for Imminence today is just attempting to make scripture apply to a very narrow view of the person that states it rather than viewing it as Christ meant it to the whole Church generation as well as the generation of people that find themselves in the day when all the events that Christ foretold (earlier in Chapter 24) happen.

 

1 Corinthians 1:71 Corinthians 1:7 (New Century Version)
 so you have every gift from God while you wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to come again. 
Again here we have a scripture Paul gave to the Corinthians in his first letter to them.  His acknowledgement that they have every (spiritual) gift while they wait for Jesus to come again.  Again there is no application of this verse in the context of Imminence and to infer that Imminence is the thrust of this verse is wrong and deceitful.  The whole Church from the ascending of Christ into Heaven unto now has waited for His Return even before the temple had been destroyed in AD 70 and before Israel became a nation again in 1949 events that surely had to happen before Christ return.  Again impossible to accurately use for an Imminence argument.

 

Philippians 3:20Philippians 3:20 (New Century Version)
 But our homeland is in heaven, and we are waiting for our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, to come from heaven.  True the Church and Christians from the ascending of Christ into heaven unto today wait for Christ to come back, from Heaven, in the Clouds but again there is no justification to use this verse to support imminence.  The thrust and context of this verse is to keep our mind on heavenly things and look for the Return of Christ.  At the time this was written, again, there was much prophecy that had to be fulfilled before Christ return.

 

Philippians 4:5,  Philippians 4:5 (New Century Version)
 Let everyone see that you are gentle and kind. The Lord is coming soon. Really?  I agree again but totally disagree in using this for Imminence for that is not warranted.  The context is simply not there to back it up.

 

Colossians 3: 4Colossians 3:4 (New Century Version)
 Christ is our life, and when he comes again, you will share in his glory.  This is a verse with promise about sharing in Christ Glory when he comes again but NO WHERE is there any statement regarding timeliness of His coming or saying that it can be at any moment which imminence teaches.

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10,  1 Thessalonians 1:10 (New Century Version)
 And you wait for God’s Son, whom God raised from the dead, to come from heaven. He is Jesus, who saves us from God’s angry judgment that is sure to come. The promise of coming Judgement and the fact that Jesus, salvation in Jesus, saves us from that Judgement.  That's what PreWrath teaches .. rapture/escape BEFORE God's Judgment. 2:

 

1 Thessalonians 5:6,  1 Thessalonians 5:6 (New Century Version)
 So we should not be like other people who are sleeping, but we should be alert and have self-control.  
Here we have a verse that is in the context of Christ coming back but right above it in verse 4 a reassurance that we can know as the day approaches.  Not the date but the "season" that it approaches.  Like the parable of Christ in Matthew 24 and the Signs that Christ gave throughout Matthew 24 as how to recognize the day's approach.  Imminence is not in the picture here in fact verse 4 above this 1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New Century Version)
 But you, brothers and sisters, are not living in darkness, and so that day will not surprise you like a thief.  gives assurance that we "brothers", saved of God, can know as it approaches and not be in darkness and have it come as a total surprise.  

 

Titus 2:13,  Titus 2:13 (New Century Version)
 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.  The return of Christ to Rapture us is the Great Hope of the Church but interesting that with pre-trib there is no scriptures that can be shown where Christ, Himself, spoke about a pre-trib rapture.    This is a mindset we are to have from the early church to today up to the actual last generation before Christ comes.  No statement or inference about imminence though.

 

and Revelation 16:15).  Revelation 16:15 (New Century Version)
 “Listen! I will come as a thief comes! Happy are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on so that they will not walk around naked and have people see their shame.“   The context and placement of this verse surely points to Christ coming at Armageddon.  This verse might be used by someone for a Post-Tribulation viewpoint but it's making an application for the Rapture from a contextual second coming and final battle at Armageddon.  

 

100% of the verses used to support Imminence have nothing to do with it and are used by the author incorrectly.  HE is attempting to grab verses here and there and make them apply to something they clearly don't.  At best that's disingenuous at worst deceitful manipulating scripture. Again for those approaching the last days Christ own words and teachings from Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well as Pauls teaching/writing in the letter of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 clearly states that certain things have to happen prior to the return of Christ for the Rapture and our gathering together with him in the air.  That's not Imminence.

 

The 3/4 Trib view says the Lord cannot return until after the Antichrist appears  (NO it is Scripture 2 Thessalonians 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (New Century Version)
3  Do not let anyone fool you in any way. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears.
4  He will be against and put himself above anything called God or anything that people worship. And that Man of Evil will even go into God’s Temple and sit there and say that he is God. 
, that states it)  the Jewish Temple has been rebuilt and the world has suffered through about 5 years of the wrath of Man and Satan. Thus, according to the 3/4 Trib view, we should be living looking for the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ.  It is Christ words that indicate that we should observe the signs to know the times as they approach.

 

Matthew 24:29-31 (New Century Version)
29  “Soonafter the trouble of those days, ’the sun will grow dark, and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from the sky. And the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30  At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the peoples of the world will cry. They will see the Son of Man coming on clouds in the sky with great power and glory.
31  He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from every part of the world.

 

 

 Matthew 24:32-33 (New Century Version)
32  “Learn a lesson from the fig tree: When its branches become green and soft and new leaves appear, you know summer is near.
33  In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time is near, ready to come.

The whole point of Matthew 24's dialog, from Christ, is to answer the disciple's question from verse 3

 Matthew 24:3 (New Century Version)
 Later, as Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his followers came to be alone with him. They said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that it is time for you to come again and for this age to end?“ 

They ask Christ what will be the SIGN of his coming again, how could they recognize that it's that time and actually close to it and that it's near?   Christ did nothing but answer their question.

 

Rosenthal asserts that the Bible never says that any prophesied end time events could not occur before the Rapture. He is correct. The re-establishment of Israel is an example. The war of Gog & Magog could prove to be another example. Imminency does not preclude the fulfillment of some end time prophecies before the Rapture. Rather, it asserts that none have to happen before the Rapture can occur.

 

4) The Wrath of God — Another strong objection I have to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That's why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world's political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son.  This is crazy to say that God would sponsor evil.  Satan rebells against God, wars against God and God is not responsible for acts of Satan or even Antichrist for it is Satan that directs Antichrist not God. God in control and has supreme power and authority and this is why Satin's ultimate fate is set.  To say that God directs the evil events though is dangerously wrong.  God restrains Satan and Antichrist with Michael and the Holy Spirit protects His saints from Satan's demons and Satan's power.  It is an attempt to say that Revelation 6:1-11 were God's Wrath and there is nothing to support that.  Rev 6:12-14 are signs brought about by God's power and Will but do not consist of His Wrath that is brought about by His agents, Angels to start in Revelation 8 when God's agents began to dispense God's Wrath.  Angels aren't doing that in Revelation 6.   

 

Further, the Bible portrays God pouring out His wrath both directly (Sodom and Gomorrah) and indirectly (the destruction of both Israel and Judah). God poured out His wrath upon the rebellious northern nation of Israel by allowing the Assyrians to conquer it. He even referred to the Assyrians as "the rod of My anger" (Isaiah 10:5) and "My war-club" (Jeremiah 51:20).

 

When the prophet Habak*** complained about God doing nothing about the evil of the southern nation of Judah, the Lord revealed that He was going to pour out His wrath on that nation through Babylon (Habak*** 1:6). And when the Lord was finished with Babylon, He raised up the Medes and Persians to conquer the Babylonian Empire, referring to the conquering army as "My consecrated ones" (Isaiah 13:3).  There is great distinction between the way God interacts with His People and Earth between Covenants, Old and New.  With the New Covenant God is in mankind that accepts Him through Christ via His Holy Spirit as a sign that the person is converted as a guarantee of the Christian's salvation.  God's wrath is withheld at this time until it is released in the End days upon Earth.  Taking the Wrath of God in the Old Testament and attempting to apply it to the New has no Justification for everything changed with Christ Jesus including how God deals with humanity.

 

During Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years, much of the wrath of God will be executed through the Antichrist, but it is still the wrath of God.  OH .. Where is this?  Again this is treading on dangerous ground attributing evil and acts of the Antichrist unto God.  I totally disagree and hold to the fact that Satan is the influence behind Antichrist, NOT GOD.

 

5) The Tribulation — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view denies that the first half of Daniel's 70th Week is part of the Tribulation. The fact of the matter is that both halves of Daniel's 70th Week are referred to in the Scriptures as a time of tribulation. Matthew 24:9 refers to the first half as "tribulation," and Matthew 24:21 classifies the second half as "great tribulation." Incidentally, Jesus' reference to the second half as the "great tribulation" does not mean it will be worse than the first half. Rather, Jesus called it that because He was speaking to a Jewish audience, and the second half of the Tribulation will be when the Antichrist will try to annihilate the Jews.  The reference to Tribulation has to do with what happens to Israel and God's people, and Christians (the Church).  There is no where in the Bible that Christians or Saints of God are promised protection from tribulation in the world and to state so is wrong.  WE are promised protection from God's coming Wrath but NOT Tribulation.  On the contrary we are told that as Christians we will encounter and have Tribulation in our lives, John 16:33  

John 16:33 (New Century Version)
 “I told you these things so that you can have peace in me. In this world you will have trouble, but be brave! I have defeated the world.“

 

6) The Purpose of Daniel's 70th Week — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view distorts the purpose of Daniel's 70th Week. Daniel 9:24-27 makes it clear that the purpose of Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is to accomplish six things among the Jewish people:

  1. To finish transgression
  2. To make an end of sin
  3. To make atonement for iniquity
  4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
  5. To seal up vision and prophecy
  6. To anoint the most Holy Place

 

Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) of the prophecy had nothing to do with the Church, neither does the final week of years. The last seven year period of Daniel's prophecy is about the accomplishment of the purposes listed above among the Jewish people. Accordingly, the entire period of Daniel's 70th Week is referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "the time of Jacob's trouble." There is no purpose for the Church during Daniel's 70th Week.

 

In the third and last part of this look at the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, we'll consider more objections to the viewpoint

 

http://www.lamblion.us/2014/12...e-objections-to.html

 

 

While God's people are the Jews and Israel the Gentiles, the Church, is grafted in and thus can receive the promise of God and Salvation confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11:17 (New Century Version) 
 It is as if some of the branches from an olive tree have been broken off. You non-Jewish people are like the branch of a wild olive tree that has been joined to that first tree. You now share the strength and life of the first tree, the Jews. 

It is more or less a cop out to try and say Matthew 24 was for the Jews or that this section was for the jews alone.  Yes the 70th year, like the other 69 were for the Jews but through their disbelief and error Salvation was opened to the Gentiles and as such we are grafted in and are able to look forward to Christ coming again.  WE are of those promised that the Tribulations will be cut short, by the Rapture, for the sake of God's people, Elect, Church, Christians ... all of the above.

Matthew 24:22 (New Century Version)
 God has decided to make that terrible time short. Otherwise, no one would go on living. But God will make that time short to help the people he has chosen.

If we are to say that Matthew was writing just to Jews then what about the Lord's supper and the Great Commission are these only for the Jews?  What about Luke, a Gentile who was writing to Gentiles his book details the same information and statements.  Attempts to say this is only for the Jews is pulling something out because they cannot find actual scripture to reinforce their theology but rather they have to manipulate, misuse and make scripture bend to what they want it to say.

 

I'm sorry but to me you have a writer that is so convinced and dogmatic and sealed in his own viewpoint that he is unwilling to consider any other alternative and thus he uses scriptures wrongly to support a position that they clearly don't relate to.  IF I or the PreWrath advocates have used scripture wrongly and out of context then cite the scripture and explain the context and what it's teaching but do so in the context of the passage it's in and not through picking and choosing of scriptures that obviously aren't meant to apply to what they are being  used to apply to such as this author's vain attempts for the Scriptures he used to try and support Imminence.  That is my opinion and belief and until I see more compelling evidence and Scripture that contradicts it I'll continue to accept the PreWrath position, a Rapture that occurs after Antichrist wages war on Christians and Jews and before God's actual Wrath begins (Rev 8->, right after He PROTECTS those who are HIS.  The Jews by sealing them (Rev 7:1-9) and then the Church/Gentiles and other Jews who found Jesus and are not part of the 144,000 sealed above in Rev 7:9-17.  

 

It is interesting to compare Revelation's 5th seal Rev 6:9-11 Revelation 6:9-11 (New International Version)
9  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10  They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
11  Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. 

with

Revelation 12:10-17 (New International Version)
10  Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11  They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12  Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
13  When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
15  Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16  But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17  Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  

 Revelation does fit together and can be understood and is not so mysterious that it cannot be understood.   The time of Satan and the campaign of Antichrist is during a period, of the last days, when God's people JEWS (The Woman's offspring) and the Christians who maintain the testimony of Christ Jesus which also includes some Jews as well for there are many Jews that are Christians.  

 

 

 

 

 

GB, my Friend,

 

In all that, you still seem to ignore Jesus' teaching of the immanence of the Rapture.  As I wrote in another discussion:

 

GB, my Friend,  You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the"immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.

 

Is that really the position you want to support?

 

And, in your post above you suggest that Matthew 24 and 25 speaks of the Rapture.   That is not true.  Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking of His Second Coming:

 

1. He speaks of the Great Tribulation -- which has already occurred during the seven year Tribulation.

 

2.  He tells us the whole earth will see the Son of Man coming in power and glory.  At the Rapture, only believers will see and hear His coming in the clouds to rapture out His church.  At His Second Coming, all the world will see Him -- and most of the world will mourn, as verse 30 tells us.

 

3.  And, in Matthew 25:31-46, He is telling us of the coming Sheep and Goat Judgment -- which occurs at His Second Coming.

 

No Rapture view can be valid if it does not account for the immanency of the Rapture. Neither MidTrib and PreWrath allow for this doctrine of immanency.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:    My Comments will be in BLUE TEXT

GB, my Friend,

 

In all that, you still seem to ignore Jesus' teaching of the immanence of the Rapture.  As I wrote in another discussion:

 

GB, my Friend,  You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the"immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.

 

Is that really the position you want to support?

 

And, in your post above you suggest that Matthew 24 and 25 speaks of the Rapture.   That is not true.  Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking of His Second Coming:

 

1. He speaks of the Great Tribulation -- which has already occurred during the seven year Tribulation.

 

2.  He tells us the whole earth will see the Son of Man coming in power and glory.  At the Rapture, only believers will see and hear His coming in the clouds to rapture out His church.  At His Second Coming, all the world will see Him -- and most of the world will mourn, as verse 30 tells us.

 

3.  And, in Matthew 25:31-46, He is telling us of the coming Sheep and Goat Judgment -- which occurs at His Second Coming.

 

No Rapture view can be valid if it does not account for the immanency of the Rapture. Neither MidTrib and PreWrath allow for this doctrine of immanency.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

NO BILL Matthew 24:30-31 is NOT the end time Armageddon 2nd Coming of Christ and I put some comparisons on a separate post which I will repost here below:

 

Now compare Matthew 24:31 to Armageddon passage of Revelation 19:11-18
which is what Pre-Tribulationist say Matthew 24:31 is related to.
Remember also that Armageddon takes place at the end of the seven year period right before the Millinium somewhere in the 30 & 45 day period after the 7 year period.

Matthew 24 Commpared          to          Revelation 19 (Armageddon and 2nd Coming)
Angels Gather the Elect to        ---           Angels call birds to feast on flesh of Judged
Jesus in the Clouds

Trumpet Sounds                        ----          nope, no trumpets in Rev 19 coming
Evacuation (Rapture)                ----          nope, no catching away or gathering here
Assembling  (Rev 7:9-15)          ----          nope - no assemply in heaven
Sun & Moon Darkened              ----          nope  no cosmic signs 

The Wrath of God Begins          ----          The Wrath of God is over, earthly rule begins
 
A close examination shows that there is No match at all between the two passages (Matt 24:30-31 & Revelation 19)  That's because Matthew 24:30-31 and the same passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21 refer to and is descriptive of the Rapture that Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-18.
 
here is the text from Rev 19: Revelation 19:11-21 (New International Version)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
12  His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13  He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14  The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15  Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16  On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18  so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19  Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20  But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
21  The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.  

 

Just what parts of the Second Coming is parallel with Matthew 24:30-31 that makes you think that the two are talking about the SAME EVENT?

A close comparison (side by side) of Matthew 24:30-31 to the 2nd Coming verses that you are trying to tie this to show NO comparison and similarity thus this is NOT what you are trying to say but when you compare the verses (Matthew 24:30-31 with the Rapture description that Paul gives in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 it is an exact match.

Matthew 24:30-31

Matthew 24:30-31 (New International Version)
30  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appearin the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

------------------------------------------------- with ------------------------------------

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)
16  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18  Therefore encourage each other with these words.  

------------------------------------------ also compare with --------------------------

Revelation 7:9-17 (New International Version)
9  After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10  And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
11  All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12  saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
13  Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14  I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15  Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16  Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.
17  For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

 Bill you insist on applying verses that do not teach imminence to that very doctrine.  Those verses teach and say that NO one can KNOW the DAY or Hour of the coming Day of the Lord likewise no one can know the day and hour of the Rapture yet you are using these verses to try and say Christ was teaching about Imminence (nothing having to happen before the Rapture happens) where obviously the whole context of Matthew 24 and Christ answer to the Disciples was nothing but Christ telling them what had to happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord, the End times and the Rapture. 

 

 

<<<<< A FEW CHALLENGES FOR YOU BILL  >>>>>

1)  JUST WHERE does CHRIST teach about the PRE-Trib Rapture at in Matthew 24 Bill?  Where is that, for surely Christ would not skip over such a profound and important event, the hope of the Church.  WHERE in Matthew 24 is that Rapture taught by Christ?

------------------------------

2)  HOW do you associate verses that clearly say NO one can know the TIME or DAY of the Day of the Lord with imminence?  Where does Christ speak say that nothing has to happen before His return?

------------------------------

3)  WHERE are the parallels between Matthew 24:30-31 and the 2nd Coming/Armageddon as you insist that Matthew 24:30-31 means and refers to?  You say it's not the Rapture (as I say it is) and you say it's the 2nd coming.  We'll that 2nd coming is given in Revelation 19 so highlight the similarities and common points that make you think that this is referring to the 2nd coming?

------------------------------

4) What does Paul mean in telling the Thessalonians, in 1 Thess 5:4 that they are NOT in DARKNESS that the Day should overtake them as a thief?

------------------------------

5) Lastly regarding 2 Thess 2:1-11 If Paul is not saying, to the Thessalonians, that the events outlined in verse 3 & 4 have to precede (that is come before) the Rapture (vs 1) then exactly what is the meaning of that section and what is it referring to?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GB, my Friend,

 

In another discussion, you tell me:

 

The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing that God has chosen for HIs Day of the Lord's Judgment and/or the Rapture.

 

This makes me believe that you do not know the meaning of imminence.   But, first let me clarify one mistake in my writing.  My spell checker picked up "imminence" and converted it to "immanence."  The two words have totally different Biblical meanings.

 

Now, to define "imminence":

 

Perhaps Today: The Imminent Coming of Christ
by Thomas Ice
https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt7.html

 

The New Testament teaching that Christ could return and rapture His church at any-moment, without prior signs or warning (i.e., imminency), is such a powerful argument for pretribulationism that it is one of the most fiercely attacked doctrines by pre-trib opponents. Non-pretribulationists sense that if the New Testament teaches imminency, then a pre-trib rapture is virtually assured.

 

Definition of Imminency:

 

What is the biblical definition of imminency?  Dr. Renald Showers defines and describes imminence as follows:

 

1) An imminent event is one which is always "hanging overhead, is constantly ready to befall or overtake one; close at hand in its incidence." ("imminent,"The Oxford English Dictionary, 1901, V, 66.)Thus, imminence carries the sense that it could happen at any moment.  Other things may happen before the imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens.  If something else must take place before an event can happen, then that event is not imminent. In other words, the necessity of something else taking place first destroys the concept of imminency.

 

It is my contention that, in these two Scripture verses, Jesus Christ is teaching us of the "imminence" of His coming Rapture of the church:

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

And, it is my contention that ONLY the PreTrib view is allowed by the teaching of imminence.   Those views which do not allow for the imminence of the Rapture -- cannot be valid.

 

GB, when you say of Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7 that "The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing" -- your statement is similar to me saying, "No, that is a car.  I want an automobile!"  

 

Imminence and not knowing the exact timing mean the same.

 

And the PreWrath and MidTrib Rapture views deny the imminence of His coming to Rapture His church.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill 

AIG - The Gospel From The Beginning

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