Skip to main content

Thank you all for your advice. I guess my post about dying kind of gave the impression that I was having thoughts of suicide. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
I have two grandchildren & I would never do that to them.

I was just saying that sometimes the burden of not knowing what's real gets to be a bit much, & dying is the only way we're going to know for sure. I'm sorry that I didn't explain myself better.

rram, thank you but if I so much as mentioned going to a COC, I would have one pissed off husband. Big Grin

He was raised in a COC & that would not be an option for his wife. I mean no offense since you attend a COC, I'm just giving you somewhat of an idea how it would be.
Of course, I visited one as a teenager several times & it wasn't my cup of tea, & wouldn't be now.

I know my husband worries about me & the state I'm in & I suppose that's because he loves me but this is something I have to find my own path to walk. No one can do it for me.

Jank, I haven't forgotten your PM. It's late so I will answer tomorrow. Wink
quote:
We can't force children to feel what we feel and think how we think. Frankly, there is some selfishness in that type of sentiment



How is it selfish to want my children to experience the fullness of Faith? I don't REALLY bathe them in holy water, but I do expect that they attend Mass, and serve the Church. If I find true peace, and the Presence of Christ in the church, how can it be selfish to want the same thing for my children?
For me, I find it more to be an act of love- I was not raised in a very Christian household. I had to figure it all out for myself, and I do harbor a bit of resentment for being left to fend for myself spiritually.
Just a thought....
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
How do you think we human's came to be here?



quote:
Originally posted by A. Robustus:
Modern humans evolved from another hominid ancestor and those early hominids evolved from non-hominids and so on, all the way back to the beginning of life on earth. How did life on earth begin? I don't know. There are certainly various hypotheses but the jury is still out for now.


Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we evolved from apes.

I'm sorry, but I just can't. Frowner


You're welcome. Don't forget though that we are apes too. I can expand more on this and our hominid ancestors if necessary.
quote:
You're welcome. Don't forget though that we are apes too. I can expand more on this and our hominid ancestors if necessary.



LOL Adot,

Show us the pictures. I'm sure you are flippin' pages.

Not to discourage you but I’m gonna bet your understanding of the subject falls short of current arguments.

I’m gonna say you will be somewhere between a digest version of Darwin by dawkins and slight -of-hand.
VP,

I agree with semi on the subject of your children. We all just want our kids to grow up and be happy and fulfilled.

Semi said:
quote:
BTW, my turning away from God/Jesus does not lie at the feet of my parents. They raised their children the way they felt God wanted them to & the way the Bible said they should.
I am proud of the raising, love, & support my parents gave me. No child anywhere had it any better.


I feel the same way. I feel that my parents raised me in a COC because they loved me and believed it was the right thing to do. Yet I no longer believe the religion they raised me in. We went to church every time the doors were open and my Mama absolutely loved going to meetings at other churches so I spent quite a bit of time in a church building growing up. I don't think it was shoved down my throat at home so much by her, but the church itself was pretty over bearing. It wasn't the church either that turned me away from religion though. It was me. I just could not believe in the bible anymore and with out that then you really have a hard time believing in god. I think it was my own curious nature and thirst for knowledge that did god in for me.

I don't think there is anyway to ensure our children take the path we want them to. You will do your best I am sure to raise them well, you seem like a very loving and caring mom and that will go a long way in how they turn out as adults.

Whether they are religious or not, who knows. I would shoot for happy, and loved and let them decide what it takes in their own lives to accomplish that.

I'm sure thats all you really want anyway. I don't think it is selfish at all, to you god and religion are the answer to a large part of your happiness. It might not be for them.

If one of my children became religious, I would not be bothered by that at all. If that is what made them happy. Unless they became one of those bible thumpers. Then I would probably take a switch to them, no matter how old they were. Smiler
quote:
I want my kids to be Catholic. But if I force them, will they be driven away? How does this work? Where inlies the balance? Forever.



Man, tough one. Personally, I let my children find their own way. Spiritualism seems to be an innate part of the human condition so most people will seek without your guidance. I was born with more of a skeptical mind than others. I recall being 4 years old and wondering how on earth anyone could think that the whole earth was covered with water during the Flood. I supposed I could have been brainwashed into accepting that and rejecting all the contrary evidence but my parents were not fundamentalists.

I found my own way. My children will find theirs. One of mine is a believer. One has some serious questions. BOTH are very, very well adjusted, good, kind, smart kids and will grow to be productive members of the human race.

Kids are smarter than they were years ago or when I was growing up. Scientific wonder surround us like no other time in history. Secularism is on the rise at an alarming rate as children realize that some of the "literal" interpretations of the bible are just plain stupid by today's standards yet there are obviously many people out there who insist that they believe this tale or that or face eternal dangnation.

The shocking headlines that the Catholic Church generates almost every makes me wonder why anyone would want to be involved with such a morally corrupt organization. Kids see those headlines, too.

Kids are waking up to the problems with religion these days but most still seek spiritual guidance.

I would not dare attempt to force religion upon them. Gentle prodding mixed with intelligent discourse and critical thinking (as insulation against fundamentalism) will pay off for them. That is my way.

You, ma'am, must find your own way. Find it through love and unselfishness and the way will become clear.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
So. Jank is lookin for some Holy Poop.

well, i guess whatever works for you.
i'd settle for a signed postcard, ya know?

" having a good time,
wish you were here'
-God.

but i guess we all need our own form of evidence.


nagel, your post never fail to make me laugh. Keep'em coming. Wink


heh.. that's me.. the comic relief for the religion forum...

.. i said my bit, answered the question, but i like the thread, it's interesting so i keep reading. but at the same time i don't wanan just be a broken record and repeat myself or others over and over so unless an new issue show up i just have a little fun with it.

life if to short to take too seriously, and we'll all know the answer pretty soon anyway, so i try to make the best of the time i have - and soemtimes that means being a dork on the TD religion forum Smiler
because you are an atheist, do you consider yourself to be more enlightened, or better informed, than your arents, your sibling and your wife?
Do you feel that others who worship or believe in God, are contributing to the "holding back" of society and the human race? And if so, do you believe in cessation of public worship, including public prayer?
What parts of the Bible do you feel are an accurate historical document and which parts do you believe to be a fairy tale?
tyates,

What do you mean by "enlightened"? I don't think any of those necessarily have a thing to do with atheism. I'm sure many atheists consider themselves more "enlightened" because of the whole historical "enlightenment" period but I dare any atheist to say they are more enlightened about topics that I am an expert on. No, atheists aren't any smarter, richer, poorer, uglier, prettier, less or more moral than any others. The simply don't believe in God.

Next question, I'm sure that some (many? most?) believe religion to be holding back society. I certainly feel that way about many religions including the fundamentalists denominations of my own religion. That is not an atheist trait, but a common sense trait. Fundamentalists here in the US wish to place people like Sarah Palin (who truly is uneducated but not "stupid" as many claim) in the highest office in the land strictly because she is a fundamentalist just like them. That is scary. Other religions drive jets into buildings for their religions. The atheists that I know generally simply fire up a dooby or log onto a forum when they get enough.

But other atheists and religion people could not care less about politics or even religion. So this is not a atheist stance but a human one.

As for the bible, it does not take an atheist stance to know that some of the bible is historical, some is literal, some is allegorical and some is just plain stupid (much of the Old Testament) and obviously written by men for men. The New Testament is a much more enlightened set of documents that my faith instructs me is a close representation of God intent through Jesus Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
tyates,

What do you mean by "enlightened"? I don't think any of those necessarily have a thing to do with atheism. I'm sure many atheists consider themselves more "enlightened" because of the whole historical "enlightenment" period but I dare any atheist to say they are more enlightened about topics that I am an expert on. No, atheists aren't any smarter, richer, poorer, uglier, prettier, less or more moral than any others. The simply don't believe in God.

Next question, I'm sure that some (many? most?) believe religion to be holding back society. I certainly feel that way about many religions including the fundamentalists denominations of my own religion. That is not an atheist trait, but a common sense trait. Fundamentalists here in the US wish to place people like Sarah Palin (who truly is uneducated but not "stupid" as many claim) in the highest office in the land strictly because she is a fundamentalist just like them. That is scary. Other religions drive jets into buildings for their religions. The atheists that I know generally simply fire up a dooby or log onto a forum when they get enough.

But other atheists and religion people could not care less about politics or even religion. So this is not a atheist stance but a human one.

As for the bible, it does not take an atheist stance to know that some of the bible is historical, some is literal, some is allegorical and some is just plain stupid (much of the Old Testament) and obviously written by men for men. The New Testament is a much more enlightened set of documents that my faith instructs me is a close representation of God intent through Jesus Christ.


I have also seen many who think they are "smarter" than the acknowledged Christian, simply because they think that relying on God is a crutch. They think that it requires a weak mind to believe in a higher power, and that man is ultimately the ruler of his own world.
The excuse that religion is holding back the progress of humanity is also another favorite statement by the atheist. Exactly what does a believing Christian do that is detrimental to the progress of this country as you see it? I on the other hand see that true Christianity has done more good for this country than anything the atheists have ever offered.
Sitting back "smoking a dooby" or huffing the bong maybe fun, but in the end it will do nothing to further the development of the species.
I for one would much rather have a a God fearing doctor, dentist, or nurse caring for me than an atheist who just came in from outside "firing one up". Not to say that there might not be a Christian out there with them....LOL. The last time I checked the ten commandments did not say "thou shalt not light one up"...lol....but irregardless there are many who saw Sarah Palin as someone who was refreshing, not because of her conservative values, but because she represented the polar opposite of what has caused most of the problems in Washington now. The Washington elite who sit and stare down there noses at the common people of this country who are overtaxed and overregulated, but not to stray from the point.
The Bible as I see it, is a tool. It was used to explain to the early Christians how things "came about" and to give them their heritage. Who am I to doubt whether there was a "talking buring bush", the fact is the stories which were passed down from the generations are represented in that document, and it gives an excellent plan for us as human beings to live by. It offers comfort in times of greif. It gave good health practices for early man, some of which are still viable today.
The biggest hangup most have is with the condemnation of homosexuality, adultery, and many other things which the Bible calls sin. I, evidently, have not found anything in there yet that I cannot live without.
quote:
I have also seen many who think they are "smarter" than the acknowledged Christian,



Well, to be fair, many of the atheists here in this forum certainly are smarter and more logical that the most fundamentalists. My goodness, some of these people outright deny perfectly demonstrable, verified, in-your-face science because of their fundamentalism and brainwashing. It is so very mind-numbingly irritating to see these fundametalists twist the word of God so much that reality itself must be distorted in order to close the chasm between science and religion.

I very much understand the frustration the atheists have when ignorant and deluded people say the stupid and deluded things they say sometimes. That does not make me an atheist but it certainly does make me more "enlightened" on scientific matters than the typical snake handler.

So, yes, I agree that in the scientific realm, the atheists here IN THIS FORUM certainly seem to have the good when it comes to science. I don't know that that speaks for the entire atheist movement but I doubt it does.
quote:
I would not dare attempt to force religion upon them. Gentle prodding mixed with intelligent discourse and critical thinking (as insulation against fundamentalism) will pay off for them


Thanks, SK. That's some good advice.
I guess I maybe made myself sound like the nut-job mom from "Carrie", but I'm not. I'll totally let my kids go to the prom. lol.
I swear.
All I meant is that is seems to be a fine line between raising well adjusted, Christian children, and having them curse you later for forcing doctrines on them.
I'm just trying to find that line...yall helped. Thank you.
PS- ABSOLUTELY love the insulation idea. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
because you are an atheist, do you consider yourself to be more enlightened, or better informed, than your arents, your sibling and your wife? Sometimes.
Do you feel that others who worship or believe in God, are contributing to the "holding back" of society and the human race? Quite often. Ever heard of 9-11? How about stem cell research? Galileo? Ken Ham? I'll admit, it's the Fundamentalists who are most guilty of holding back human progress, but rank and file Christians give the Fundies too big a break by saying "that's their beliefs, and who am I to argue"? And if so, do you believe in cessation of public worship, including public prayer? Not if you mean people gathering to pray. If you mean bothering everyone at football games, yes.
What parts of the Bible do you feel are an accurate historical document and which parts do you believe to be a fairy tale?
The bible is so corrupted by agenda and mythology, that we must disregard all of it, except for the very few examples that are historically verifiable, such as the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem. When a source is demonstrably wrong in so many accounts, there can be little confidence in the rest of it.

Let's face it. The Bible is a collection of fairy tales and bogus history. It belongs on the shelf with stories of Zeus and Thor.
The Bible is an oral and written account of the lives of people from ancient times.

It is not a science book or history book.

There are many accounts in the Bible that have been proven by archeology and other means.
Sodom and Gomorrah were probably destroyed by an asteroid.
Now the question is, random chance or divine punishment?
quote:
Sodom and Gomorrah were probably destroyed by an asteroid.

On the Discovery channel, of course.


According to the Bible, the men of Sodom were such sinners against the Lord, He decided to destroy them. God allowed Lot, the one good man living there, to flee the town with his family, before God showed his wrath. But Lots wife disobeyed Gods warning not to look back towards Sodom as she fled, and she was turned into a pillar of salt, where she stood.

A clay tablet that has baffled scientists for 150 years has been identified as a witnesss account of the asteroid suspected of being behind the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Researchers who cracked the cuneiform symbols on the Planisphere tablet believe that it recorded an asteroid thought to have been more than half a mile across.

Using computers to recreate the night sky thousands of years ago, scientists have pinpointed his sighting to shortly before dawn on June 29 in the year 3123 B.C. Around the same time Soddom and Gommorah were destroyed by "god".
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:


According to the Bible, the men of Sodom were such sinners against the Lord, He decided to destroy them. God allowed Lot, the one good man living there, to flee the town with his family, before God showed his wrath.


The S&G story always bothered me. So when the angels came to town and visited Lot, the towns men came to his house and wanted Lot to send them out so the could "know" them. Lot being the only righteous man left then offered up his virgin daughters in place of the angels.

Once they made it out of town and into the mountains, the daughters decided that the only way they were ever going to have a man and children was to render their father unconscious and have sex with him.

This is an example of what god saw as righteous and worth saving from his wrath. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
Do atheists believe in ANYTHING? What about ghosts, fairies, UFOs, Bigfoots?
Do you just not believe in God or do you dismiss all belief?


You should define "belief". Obviously, atheists "believe" in a lot of things but they are generally rooted in the natural world.

By definition, the only thing that atheists have in common is lack of belief in gods. Everything else variable depending on the individual. I don't personally believe in the supernatural (ghosts, fairies, UFOs, Bigfoots, gods, etc.) and haven't found many atheists that do either but there are some.

I also dismiss all belief in the supernatural automatically. Evidence and proof would change my mind and I'd be happy to do so. So far though, betting against the mystical and the magical has been a very secure bet.
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
because you are an atheist, do you consider yourself to be more enlightened, or better informed, than your arents, your sibling and your wife?
Do you feel that others who worship or believe in God, are contributing to the "holding back" of society and the human race? And if so, do you believe in cessation of public worship, including public prayer?
What parts of the Bible do you feel are an accurate historical document and which parts do you believe to be a fairy tale?


I do not consider myself more enlightened or better informed to anyone by default. Just like everybody else, sometimes I am, sometimes I ain't. Intelligence, knowledge and wisdom is only a part of the human equation. There are a lot of very brilliant theists, but I suppose that faith resides separately and may be antithetical to intense and constant scrutiny of facts. Obviously though, both can coexist in one brain. I do think that people's natural make up may make them more or less likely to be an atheist or theist.

I don't think that believers are holding back the human race. Society or progress maybe a little, but I think that's just the natural order of things and it's probably not an entirely bad thing on the whole.

Please define "public" worship and prayer.

If at all, I think that the Bible is a very minor historical document. There are infinitely better sources of ancient events and individuals. The fairy tale parts should be obvious. They're the ones that only happened in ancient times. Funny how much less magic there is in the modern world than in the time of the Bible.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:


According to the Bible, the men of Sodom were such sinners against the Lord, He decided to destroy them. God allowed Lot, the one good man living there, to flee the town with his family, before God showed his wrath.


The S&G story always bothered me. So when the angels came to town and visited Lot, the towns men came to his house and wanted Lot to send them out so the could "know" them. Lot being the only righteous man left then offered up his virgin daughters in place of the angels.

Once they made it out of town and into the mountains, the daughters decided that the only way they were ever going to have a man and children was to render their father unconscious and have sex with him.

This is an example of what god saw as righteous and worth saving from his wrath. Roll Eyes


The Bible is full of this stuff.
quote:
The S&G story always bothered me. So when the angels came to town and visited Lot, the towns men came to his house and wanted Lot to send them out so the could "know" them. Lot being the only righteous man left then offered up his virgin daughters in place of the angels.

Once they made it out of town and into the mountains, the daughters decided that the only way they were ever going to have a man and children was to render their father unconscious and have sex with him.

This is an example of what god saw as righteous and worth saving from his wrath.


That's not really accurate since you left out a key piece of information.

That event is what led to the tribes of the Moabites and Ammonites which became enemies of the Israelites. If you dig deeper into the OT, you'll see that God didn't consider those two tribes righteous at all.

Read Ruth for a clearer picture about the relationship between those two tribes and the Hebrews.

The OT is Jewish history. Like the history of any culture, it's not what one would call family friendly. People are gross, and if you tell the story of a people accurately, there are going to be some gross details. The accounts of depravity in a people's history doesn't disprove it's accuracy.
1. Referring to believers as redneck, and backwoods, is the type of action I was referring to when I asked about thinking that you were better than, or more enlightened, than those who choose to worship God. A wise man once said, "Pride goeth before a fall", so be careful about being so condescending to those who in reality may know more than you think.

2. Billy Joe, or DF, it is easy to blame things like 9/11 on organized religion, but why not blame it on the real culprit, and that is man himself. Throughout history man has committed acts such as these in the name of God, but in reality God had little to do with it. Many crazy people use religion as an excuse to do evil, and perhaps that is nothing more than a tool the devil uses to refocus the attention elsewhere. I also know there are tons of crimes out there performed by those who do not believe, or have any idea what God actually represents. Stem cell research can take place without using fetal tissue. Stem cells are present in placental tissue at birth, yet we typically discard that tissue to the landfill when it could be used for research. The pro-abortionists say the cells are not the same, but that is not true, the fetal circulation is present in the placenta at birth.
before you go off on me, let me say that I am not in favor of a complete outlaw of abortion, for I know there are times when it is necessary, BUT late term abortion, and those performed for convenience are wrong and should not be allowed to occur under public funding.

3. Robustus,
My question about public prayer stems from a recent case where the Wisconsin Atheists Association put up a big stink because a fair in Colorado allowed for a public worship service on Sunday morning at that fairgrounds. Everyone who came to the fair that morning was allowed to enter for free, but was not required to attend the service. The atheists did not like the fact that people got in free on Sunday morning, and that it was related to the church service, so they made it an issue. Why do atheists fear a public chruch service? Why does it bother them so, are they afraid that there may be some out there who are looking for something missing in their lives and find it at a church service?

I do not consider myself to be an intellectual, though I have been thru post graduate school and professional school. My background is in science, and thus far I have seen little that cannot be explained by God, since I believe that God controls all things, including the sciences. At the same time I have seen God do miraculous things in people's lives, if nothing more than give them comfort in time of need. If I am a backwoods redneck, then I will happily die one. Not because I was "brought up" that way, or had it forced down my throat, but because God has provided for me in times when nothing else could comfort me. It literally saved me from doing something that would have had detrimental effects on my children and loved ones.
Tey,

Me? Go off on you for having a civil discussion? I would never.

You wrote:
quote:
before you go off on me, let me say that I am not in favor of a complete outlaw of abortion, for I know there are times when it is necessary, BUT late term abortion, and those performed for convenience are wrong and should not be allowed to occur under public funding.


I'm with you on late term abortions. Fetuses are candidate members of the human race. I think the Supreme Court got it about right restricting abortions in the third trimester.

As for abortions of convenience, during the proper and legal term of fetal development, that should be safe and legal. Women who find themselves pregnant and don't want to be will find a way to get an abortion. Twas ever thus. The difference is whether the abortion is safe and legal. How many dead women would it take to change your mind?

And remember, it's a choice. Don't want an abortion? Don't get one.

quote:
My background is in science, and thus far I have seen little that cannot be explained by God,
Have you ever seen anything that does not require god in order to work?
Hehehehehehehe... the asteroid* theory of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah struck me as rather funny, so I did a quick Google of it.

Behold: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343674,00.html

According to this (ahem) "research", the area of destruction from impact would have been about 600 miles wide and similarly long.

Now, just for perspective, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater

You will notice that this rather large crater was formed when a meteorite only 50 meters in diameter struck. That's a heckuva lot smaller than 1/2 mile.

So, where is the crater in the Alps? And where is any evidence of the trail of destruction between S & G and Austria?

Meteor Crater is 50,000 years old. The alleged asteroid strike of S & G would have happened about 7000 years ago, max. Much too recently for the enormous crater to have disappeared due to erosion.

Where is the geological evidence for this? Zipsville, that's where. OMG, a mudslide in the Alps??? God must have done it.

Color me skeptical.

It's a bit disturbing when I see religious types desperately cling to any reason, however outrageous and flimsy, to "prove" the fantasies of the Bible. We know how to investigate things now, and skepticism is appropriate. Don't you remember the most recent "finding" of Noah's Ark just last year?

But, hey, it's all in fun.

*Why do they call them hemorrhoids? Because "asteroid" was taken.
I guess it is all in how you see it. Science for me explains things where the Bible left off. For instance I can see the Big Bang and processes of evolution while at the same time acknowledging God for what he did in those actions. Do I believe the Earth is older than 6,000 years? Yes I do. I also believe in dinosaurs, and when I read the Bible see where they are mentioned. The difference is that there are things that Science cannot explain. You say, "We don't have all the answers yet". While, I say "Maybe that is because God is the answer as to how and why those things occur." You call it a crutch, I call it faith.
I think people can go to extremes on both sides of the coin. For me it is easy to believe that man was formed in God's image, and why would I want to believe that man descended from apes? If apes represent a pathway along the evolutionary scale, why did some go on to evolve and others stayed in the same state? Where are all the petrified remains of our simian ancestry? We find dinosaurs every day, but humanoid skeletons are extremely rare, with only about one or two supposed missing links in existence, and even some of those can be explained by "funny looking people" or altered genetic codes.
I don't propose to have all of the answers, and I don't think any Christian, nor non-Christian, has them either. It is OK to say that you don't know everything, I learned that lesson the hard way in a neonatal unit about 15 years ago, but that story is too long to tell....LOL

I don't need the bodies of dead women to tell me that we should not ban all abortions. I have seen the result of botched abortions, and it is sickening. I have also seen the joy that an adopted child can give to a family who has nothing, and how that child can grow and develop into a lovely young lady who is thankful for the things given to her.
Neither side is right in this argument, there has to be some form of compromise. My problem is with the public funding of abortions and late term abortions, as well as the restriction of counseling prior to these procedures. The long term ramifications to the psychological well being of the mother can be as bad after an abortion as it can be for the unwanted pregnancy.
More education for young women, and men, and trying to stem teenage sex would be money more wisely spent than that of a publically funded abortion clinic.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×