Atheist Ministers Struggle With Leading the Faithful

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:
Oh my! I saw this on ABC World News and it's really quite eye opening. Makes you wonder how many other pastors/ministers/preachers have more than just a few moments of doubt.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/athei...ul/story?id=12004359

Hi Buttercup,

Because a person "professes" Christ does NOT mean that this person "possesses" Christ. There are many people who are "intellectual" Christians; knowing the Bible and all the Christianese words and phrases well -- but, they do not become "spiritual" Christians. They do not become spiritual believers.

A good example is the Jesus Seminar, a group of theologians and scholars who formed their little club to disprove much of the Bible. They will discuss a passage in Scripture and then vote by colored bead about whether they believe Jesus really said this, or Jesus may have said it, or Jesus could have said it, or Jesus did not say it. In their high scholarly way, they have denied about 95% of what the Bible tells us that Jesus said and did. Would you say they are believers -- if they cannot believe the Written Word of God which He authored and which He gave to mankind to lead us to salvation and to be our guide in our daily Christian lives?

As I have often said, there are true spiritual Christian believers -- and there are many social Christians who only were their Christian hats on Sundays -- and wear their worldly hats the other six days. And, that does not apply only to lay people. I firmly believe there are many pastors who intellectually know the Bible and the Christian words -- and can preach a good sermon -- but, they themselves do not really believe what they preach. As Dr. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins write in their very good series on the End Times -- even many of these pastors will be "Left Behind" when the Rapture occurs.

And, these two pastors in the ABC World News interviews may have even fooled themselves for a while; thinking they believed. But, the fact that they could walk away tells me that they never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ.

One of the other videos on that URL link you give us is an interview with the author Anne Rice. She tells us that she was a Roman Catholic who became an atheist at the age of 18. Then, later she went back to the Roman Catholic church -- but, now is leaving again. Why? Because the church is teaching Biblical views of the homosexual lifestyle -- and her son is a homosexual. So, you tell me -- how much "faith" in Jesus Christ did she really have -- if she could get mad and walk away because the Bible condemns her son's chosen lifestyle?

Rice says, "I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life." She continues, "Today, I quit being a Christian. I'm out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being a 'Christian' or any part of Christianity."

The word Christian means "Christ like" or "Christ Follower." So, how can a person be a Christian -- but not be a part of the body of Christ -- which is the church?

Anne Rice may have resumed attending mass at a Roman Catholic church -- but, Anne Rice, from her own words, has never been a spiritual Christian. If she refuses to wear His name -- how can she have a relationship with Him?

Many years ago, there was a well known evangelists who led large Crusades; often working with Billy Graham. He led many folks to the Lord. Then, after many years as a successful evangelist -- he walked away from God and claimed to be an atheist. Was he ever really a believer? I do not believe he ever was. I believe he was a skilled orator who knew the Bible intellectually -- but, never spiritually. And, as some point in a life crisis, he did not have the faith to sustain himself, much like Anne Rice, and he went back to the world -- a world he had never truly left.

Buttercup, these instances are sad. But, rather than being a blow against Christianity -- it is merely a wake up call for all Christian believers that we need to be, we MUST be, more faithful and more diligent in sharing the Word of God with the lost of the world.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I saw the report this evening on the news. The first thing I thought was that this is the conclusion one reaches when they try to ask difficult questions in an environment that is very literalist or fundamentalist. With little flexibility or nuance in their answers, those environments often cause a persons faith to crumble rather than flex.

One can be a person of faith and a person of thought too but, I think too often, Christians are told to check their brains at the door of the church by the more dogmatic and literalist groups.

It's sad that these men have felt the need to walk away rather than discern their faith in a less dogmatic way.

Geez, Gray, despite the amount of words you typed, that's a (not surprisingly) very simplistic response, which is: They never believed in the first place.

The struggle is very complex. I don't believe there are any Christians who haven't experienced doubt. They may not openly admit it, but how can you just accept everything without real questions and doubts? Even Mother Theresa admitted to struggling with her faith and God knows the horrors she saw day in and day out.

And what about Charles Templeton? He co-founded Youth for Christ International - whose first full-time evangelist was Billy Graham. Templeton and Graham became friends and Templeton was surrounded with everything Jesus, yet he struggled with doubt and eventually declared himself agnostic.

It happens and it's not as simple as "he never believed to begin with."

Hi Jefft,

Interesting comments. I have just two questions for you:

1. Do you believe a person who is a true Christian believer can walk away and deny Jesus Christ?

2. What is your view of the Bible? Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by jefft:
I saw the report this evening on the news. The first thing I thought was that this is the conclusion one reaches when they try to ask difficult questions in an environment that is very literalist or fundamentalist. With little flexibility or nuance in their answers, those environments often cause a persons faith to crumble rather than flex.

One can be a person of faith and a person of thought too but, I think too often, Christians are told to check their brains at the door of the church by the more dogmatic and literalist groups.

It's sad that these men have felt the need to walk away rather than discern their faith in a less dogmatic way.

A very thoughtful response, jefft. Good post.

*I just realized it's Mother Teresa, not Theresa.*

Hi Buttercup,

You tell me, "Gray, despite the amount of words you typed, that's a (not surprisingly) very simplistic response, which is: They never believed in the first place. The struggle is very complex. I don't believe there are any Christians who haven't experienced doubt. They may not openly admit it, but how can you just accept everything without real questions and doubts? Even Mother Theresa admitted to struggling with her faith and God knows the horrors she saw day in and day out."

Yes, all Christian believers do have doubts at times -- but, there is a huge difference between "doubt" and "denial." In times of despair, one may wonder if God really cares, if God is really there. That can be a true emotional reaction to stress and depression. However, in a spiritual Christian believer -- that will never grow into denying Jesus Christ and God.

For a person who is an intellectual Christian; yes, such hardships may lead him/her to outright denial of Jesus Christ. But, this is only an indication that this person never really had a relationship with Him. Anyone can intellectually believe in Jesus Christ. Satan and all his demonic spirits believe in Jesus Christ -- but, they are not Christian believers.

Simplistic? Yes, but true. No one who has a true relationship with Jesus Christ can or will walk away from Him.

Then, you say, "And what about Charles Templeton? He co-founded Youth for Christ International - whose first full-time evangelist was Billy Graham. Templeton and Graham became friends and Templeton was surrounded with everything Jesus, yet he struggled with doubt and eventually declared himself agnostic."

Yes, he is the man I mentioned in my earlier post when I wrote: "Many years ago, there was a well known evangelists who led large Crusades; often working with Billy Graham. He led many folks to the Lord. Then, after many years as a successful evangelist -- he walked away from God and claimed to be an atheist. Was he ever really a believer? I do not believe he ever was. I believe he was a skilled orator who knew the Bible intellectually -- but, never spiritually. And, as some point in a life crisis, he did not have the faith to sustain himself, much like Anne Rice, and he went back to the world -- a world he had never truly left."

A person can appear to be a devout Christian believer, as did Templeton -- but, when he walked away and denied Jesus Christ -- this was absolute proof that he was only an intellectual Christian; he was only wearing a Christian hat.

Finally, you tell me, "It happens and it's not as simple as, 'He never believed to begin with.' "

Actually, it is just that simple. The same with becoming a true spiritual Christian believer; once again, very simple. When a person, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ - PLUS nothing else - believes and receives His "paid in full" free gift of eternal life -- that person is saved. You can read about it in Ephesians 2:8-9 and it is confirmed in John 3:16.

True, salvation, eternal life in Christ -- is very simple. However, for it to take affect; one must be sincere in seeking Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If they are honest with themselves, 80.54% of all ministers of any faith are working on hope. The rest are charlatans.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
If they are honest with themselves, 80.54% of all ministers of any faith are working on hope. The rest are charlatans.

AND, YOU GOT THE STATISTIC FROM. . .

Q. What do you call someone who puts more emphasis on the OT than the New Testament? A. A Jew.
My point is this: Jesus Christ has changed millions of lives because he called us to live on a plane much higher than our basic nature is comfortable with. It is an endeavor, not a trophy or plaque one puts on a wall, because we will never attain and/or maintain it. We are called Christians because we want, and earnestly try, to live Christ-like. The Bible cautions us not to lean on our own understanding for maybe a not-so-obvious reason; that the "Zen" of true Christianity is so difficult to attain. That, in my estimation, is why so many who pursue it feel unsuccessful when they can't claim they've reached the "Summit". Jesus Christ has changed lives and one doesn't have to look very far to see proof. The Dawkins/Hawkings of the world have nothing to offer in that realm other than, essentially,
"there is nothing on the "other side", so don't waste your time." One only has to look at the evening sky to realize that NO ONE on this little ball we call earth has even close to all the answers.

Well said astepper.

One only need to look at the Bible to see a perfect example to one proclaiming to be a Christian and following Christ and never having received salvation - Judas. Not even the other 11 deciples were aware that he "was not one of them." But in the end it was revealed that he only had head knowledge and not a true relationship with the Savior. There have always been and will always be tares among the wheat. My question is, "Will ABC now air a report that shows Muslims in a poor light?" Heaven forbid that they offend a Muslim but they delight in trying to make Christians look ignorant and fake.

quote:

Originally posted by astepper55:
Q. What do you call someone who puts more emphasis on the OT than the New Testament? A. A Jew.
My point is this: Jesus Christ has changed millions of lives because he called us to live on a plane much higher than our basic nature is comfortable with. It is an endeavor, not a trophy or plaque one puts on a wall, because we will never attain and/or maintain it. We are called Christians because we want, and earnestly try, to live Christ-like. The Bible cautions us not to lean on our own understanding for maybe a not-so-obvious reason; that the "Zen" of true Christianity is so difficult to attain. That, in my estimation, is why so many who pursue it feel unsuccessful when they can't claim they've reached the "Summit". Jesus Christ has changed lives and one doesn't have to look very far to see proof. The Dawkins/Hawkings of the world have nothing to offer in that realm other than, essentially,
"there is nothing on the "other side", so don't waste your time." One only has to look at the evening sky to realize that NO ONE on this little ball we call earth has even close to all the answers.

So it's ok to claim God for everything we don't understand? Time and time again science has disproved "acts of god" by discovering more about how our universe works.

As I look at the night sky, I see a different story. A story that began billions of years ago that we are trying to still comprehend. We are but one planet among 8 others in this solar system that manages to have intelligent life exist on it, and not even on all parts of it's surface. Some parts of this planet are just as hostile to us. We are but one solar system among billions of others in a mid sized galaxy among yet more 100's of billions of others.

Why would a god give you the ability to ask such questions, along with an intellect to even figure out some of the answers if he didn't want you to "lean on our own understanding". This is nothing more than a ploy by other men put into a book so that other men that actually believe it will not ask the tough questions that their religion cannot explain.

The Dawkings/Hawkings have put forth the evidence to show you the true nature of how our universe works. However they can only do so much. It's up to you to open your eyes with the desire to want to understand how things work.

Loki,

Excellent post, thanks.

I'm delighted to lean on my own understanding, and when that is insufficient, to use judgment and discrimination when considering others' understandings.

The understandings of religion when it comes to explanations of anything have been found bogus and just plain wrong so often that I have no confidence in them.

It really is time to move on. Use religion as a point of discussion, sure, but never rely on it as the final word.

bjbg

Thank God for entanglement.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
If they are honest with themselves, 80.54% of all ministers of any faith are working on hope. The rest are charlatans.

AND, YOU GOT THE STATISTIC FROM. . .

Clever Bill caught me out. I made it up. The actual number is 52.357%

Bill, I'm curious, which hat are you wearing today?

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Loki,

Excellent post, thanks.

I'm delighted to lean on my own understanding, and when that is insufficient, to use judgment and discrimination when considering others' understandings.

The understandings of religion when it comes to explanations of anything have been found bogus and just plain wrong so often that I have no confidence in them.

It really is time to move on. Use religion as a point of discussion, sure, but never rely on it as the final word.

bjbg

Slim,

I know you would never admit to the fact but

over a period of time my insistence that you have an understanding of your own regarding science has paid off .

You are researching real authority for answers rather than magazines biased for the atheist agenda.

At my insistence many others on the forum have actually begun to educate themselves.

I think it’s now time for you and others to recognize that the religious is not the problem to science but yourselves turning folk away from science.

You have repented somewhat and you need to set a shining example for the benefit of science in the future.

Do I have your promise?

Loki is a good place to start. She don’t know ****-from-shinola about science but feels obligated to Toadie the Scut Farkus world in which the angry atheist candidate insists living.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jefft,

Interesting comments. I have just two questions for you:

1. Do you believe a person who is a true Christian believer can walk away and deny Jesus Christ?

Free will isn't free will if doesn't go in both directions.

quote:

2. What is your view of the Bible? Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God?

I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and reveals all that is necessary for salvation.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jefft,

Interesting comments. I have just two questions for you:

1. Do you believe a person who is a true Christian believer can walk away and deny Jesus Christ?

of course. i once believed in santa and tooth fairy with all my heart and walked away from those, too. have you EVER beleived in somehting before then decided it was not true?

quote:

Originally posted by Loki:
We are but one planet among 8 others in this solar system

seven.

here is an interesting little study that addresses the Thing That Doens't Happen to Preachers according to the bill: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08122150.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:
Oh my! I saw this on ABC World News and it's really quite eye-opening.

Makes you wonder how many other pastors/ministers/preachers have more than just a few moments of doubt.

Almost everyone is capable of a moment of clarity, especially when they've got good/solid evidence.

Regards

Hi Jefft,

In my earlier post, I asked, "Interesting comments. I have just two questions for you: First, do you believe a person who is a true Christian believer can walk away and deny Jesus Christ?"

And, you respond, "Free will isn't free will if doesn't go in both directions."

It does go both ways. A person has the "free will" to accept Jesus Christ. And a person has the "free will" to reject Jesus Christ.

Just as with your spouse, when you were dating you had the "free will" to return her love -- and you had the "free will" to reject her love and walk away. If you did reject her love, assuming she had a strong love for you (like the love Jesus has for you) -- even though you rejected her -- when you return and ask her to marry you, she will say, "Yes."

Jesus Christ is the same. You can reject Him a hundred times. But, as long as you will come to Him BEFORE you die -- He will always welcome you. If a person continues to reject Him and dies while rejecting Him; that person is lost for eternity.

On the other hand, instead of rejecting the lady you love -- if you ask her to marry you and she accepts -- you are married for life. When you put that ring of gold on her hand and on your hand -- you are bound together for life. At this point, in the eyes of God you are married forever. The same is true when accepting Jesus Christ. When a person sincerely turns to follow Jesus Christ, invites Him to come in and be his/her personal Lord and Savior -- there is no walking away.

Yes, a person can be discouraged, a person can and will have doubts, a person will sin -- but, when He died on the cross and said, "It is finished!" -- He "paid in full" for all your sins -- past, present, and future. Does this mean that you are free to sin with impunity? No. We all must stand before Jesus Christ to answer for our deeds in this life. The difference will be when we stand before Jesus Christ.

Believers will stand before Him at the Rewards Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) when the church is in heaven during the seven year Tribulation. This is not a judgment of punishment -- for our sins were forgiven when we became believers. It will be a judgment of rewards or lack of rewards -- based upon the life we live after becoming a believer.

On the other hand, the non-believers will be resurrected at the end of the thousand year Millennial Kingdom and will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment -- a judgment of punishment. There is no question of guilt -- for they are standing there because they rejected Jesus Christ in this life. In His perfect Justice, He allows each to stand before Him and tell why he/she rejected His "free gift" of eternal life when they had so many opportunities. Then, they will go to their eternal home -- hell.

So, yes, Jeff, "free will" does go both ways -- accept Him or reject Him. If you reject Him, because He still loves you -- you will continue to have opportunities to accept Him in this life. If you persist in rejecting Him until you leave this life -- you have set your eternal fate in concrete, no more chances.

But, if you accept Him -- He is your personal Lord and Savior for eternity.

My second question to you was, "What is your view of the Bible? Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God?"

And, you respond, "I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and reveals all that is necessary for salvation."

Your answer is perplexing. First, you say that the Bible is inspired by God -- but, it appears that you reject its inerrancy. Can God make a mistake? Can God be wrong? If you claim the Bible is not inerrant -- you are claiming that God is not inerrant; that He can be wrong and make mistakes.

Or, you are claiming that He is not an omnipotent God; He is not powerful enough to protect the Bible He Himself authored through Holy Spirit inspiration. Is your God really not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent -- such that He could protect His Written Word through the years? Do you really believe this?

And, I notice that you left out "literal" -- that the Bible is the "literal" Word of God. He is not a God of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) -- so why would He give us a Bible which is only myths, symbols, and unknowns? Would that not confuse even the most mature Christian? What about the new Christian, the babes in Christ -- how could they possibly follow a Bible which is written to confuse them? No, God is not a God of confusion -- and neither is His Written Word, the Bible, a book of confusion.

Yes, you will find metaphors and symbolism in the Bible. However, I have always found the best way to interpret the Bible is to first read it literally. If the shoe fits; wear it. In other words, if a literal reading makes sense, go with it. If not, then look for a metaphorical or symbolic meaning.

You will find that when the Bible does speak in metaphors and symbols in one place; in another place it will explain the meaning. A good example of this is in Revelation 1 we read of the seven lampstands, seven stars, and one like a son of man. Then, in Revelation 1:20, Jesus explains the meaning of these symbols.

In Mark 4:1-9 Jesus teaches the parable of the Sower. Then, beginning in Mark 4:13, He explains the meaning of this parable. He is not a God of confusion.

So, when I say that the Bible is the inspired (by God), inerrant (God does not make mistakes), literal (not a God of confusion) Written Word of God -- how can anyone deny this?

Jeff, we follow a God who loves us so much that He is willing to give us many opportunities to follow Him. And, He has given us a divinely inspired User's Manual, the Bible, to lead us toward that eternal salvation, eternal life with Him -- and to guide us in our Christian walk once we have become Christ Followers. Believe it and never doubt His Written Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Let me assure everyone out there on any side of the issue:

Not one scientist or atheist candidate has ever produced the slightest particle of evidence for no God.

The overwhelming evidence for the creator is demonstrably all around us.

The big bang has no evidence that is non-refutable.

I have been from one end of science to the other and there is no scientist that claims anything but refutable evidence.

There is no God is the most stupid statement anyone can claim in the name of science.

To claim the big bang is indisputable is unscientific and anyone claiming otherwise is a stupid fool.

Real scientists are truly trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe and much of the current thought in the minds of an overwhelming number of biologist and physicists who have reached a point (including Einstein) is that God did it. How God made it happen is now the question.

How can God possibly be good when you have doubts that you just can't overcome and he sends you to hell for them?

What if you have done everything, as I'm sure these men have, to restore your faith - you prayed, studied the Bible and begged God to reveal himself, and still you don't see or feel anything that proves He's real? How can God still send you to hell?

I hear people talking about having a personal relationship with Jesus. I don't even know what that means. How do you have a personal relationship with an entity that won't make its presence known to you?

And if you don't feel this special relationship that others seem to feel - even though you're really trying - again, why would God send you to hell? Makes no sense.

Infinite punishment for finite transgressions is cruel and beneath any sort of loving god.

As you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jefft,

In my earlier post, I asked, "Interesting comments. I have just two questions for you: First, do you believe a person who is a true Christian believer can walk away and deny Jesus Christ?"

And, you respond, "Free will isn't free will if doesn't go in both directions."

It does go both ways. A person has the "free will" to accept Jesus Christ. And a person has the "free will" to reject Jesus Christ.

Just as with your spouse, when you were dating you had the "free will" to return her love -- and you had the "free will" to reject her love and walk away. If you did reject her love, assuming she had a strong love for you (like the love Jesus has for you) -- even though you rejected her -- when you return and ask her to marry you, she will say, "Yes."

Jesus Christ is the same. You can reject Him a hundred times. But, as long as you will come to Him BEFORE you die -- He will always welcome you. If a person continues to reject Him and dies while rejecting Him; that person is lost for eternity.

On the other hand, instead of rejecting the lady you love -- if you ask her to marry you and she accepts -- you are married for life. When you put that ring of gold on her hand and on your hand -- you are bound together for life. At this point, in the eyes of God you are married forever. The same is true when accepting Jesus Christ. When a person sincerely turns to follow Jesus Christ, invites Him to come in and be his/her personal Lord and Savior -- there is no walking away... So, yes, Jeff, "free will" does go both ways -- accept Him or reject Him. If you reject Him, because He still loves you -- you will continue to have opportunities to accept Him in this life. If you persist in rejecting Him until you leave this life -- you have set your eternal fate in concrete, no more chances.

But, if you accept Him -- He is your personal Lord and Savior for eternity.

Unless divorce has become unknown in California, I'm sure you're aware that your metaphor breaks down here. The only times that one cannot leave an agreement they have entered, if they change their mind, are the times when that adherence is imposed by law and/or punishment. That would be a continuance against ones wishes, hence free will has been thrown out the window. Again, free will is not free will if it doesn't go in both directions. Would anyone who had truly believed ever choose to leave? I don't know and I'm somewhat inclined to think not but I do think that, at this point, we start to argue semantics and that's just kind of tedious. Whether they've chosen to walk away or they never believed in the first place, their condition is the same, is it not?

quote:

My second question to you was, "What is your view of the Bible? Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God?"

And, you respond, "I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and reveals all that is necessary for salvation."

Your answer is perplexing. First, you say that the Bible is inspired by God -- but, it appears that you reject its inerrancy. Can God make a mistake? Can God be wrong? If you claim the Bible is not inerrant -- you are claiming that God is not inerrant; that He can be wrong and make mistakes.

Or, you are claiming that He is not an omnipotent God; He is not powerful enough to protect the Bible He Himself authored through Holy Spirit inspiration. Is your God really not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent -- such that He could protect His Written Word through the years? Do you really believe this?

I'm saying neither of those things. I'm saying inspired by, not dictated by. With a very cursory examination one could see that, had the scripture been dictated and then protected in the way you suggest, original manuscripts would still be on hand and all copies ever found of it would be identical. This is obviously not the case. This does not even begin to address a meticulous attention to a word for word dictation view when weighed against verbiage and syntax alterations for various language translations. I'm sure you can see the difficulties there.

quote:

And, I notice that you left out "literal" -- that the Bible is the "literal" Word of God. He is not a God of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) -- so why would He give us a Bible which is only myths, symbols, and unknowns? Would that not confuse even the most mature Christian? What about the new Christian, the babes in Christ -- how could they possibly follow a Bible which is written to confuse them? No, God is not a God of confusion -- and neither is His Written Word, the Bible, a book of confusion.

Yes, you will find metaphors and symbolism in the Bible. However, I have always found the best way to interpret the Bible is to first read it literally. If the shoe fits; wear it. In other words, if a literal reading makes sense, go with it. If not, then look for a metaphorical or symbolic meaning.

There are many places in scripture that may seem cut and dry in the English translations that, given an examination of linguistic, historical, cultural and geographic context, are not quite so cut and dry as they may initially seem. Again, I believe that the necessary components for salvation, as well as understanding of God, people and the relationship of the two, are found in scripture.

Textual analysis, criticism and nitpicking can be quite enlightening and fun as an academic exercise but I believe it can get to the point of silly. When we spend valuable time twisting ourselves into knots in an effort to explain how two of every species got on an ark or trying to convince someone that geology and cosmology are bunk, we've damaged credibility and lost time that could have been better spent to explain the Gospel.

quote:

Jeff, we follow a God who loves us so much that He is willing to give us many opportunities to follow Him. And, He has given us a divinely inspired User's Manual, the Bible, to lead us toward that eternal salvation, eternal life with Him -- and to guide us in our Christian walk once we have become Christ Followers. Believe it and never doubt His Written Word.

I agree but to get bogged down in spats over literalism is to miss the forest for the trees while people pass by, turned off by our provincial, sectarian pettiness.

I think the rise in atheism is directly related to education. If any of you read the study that Unobtanium linked then you will see that most of those Clergy that had become non-believers started loosing their faith while in Seminary school. It was education that made them see things in a different light.

When you look at the rate of illiteracy say in the late 19th century where more than 20 percent of adults could neither write or read vs. today where the percentage sits around 0.03%. You start to see how people were able for the first time to read the bible and other books for themselves. They no longer needed a pastor or priest to tell them what the bible said and meant. I think that with this knowledge came more and more people who just can't overlook the obvious.

I am in no way saying that those that believe are uneducated or illiterate. I think there are many very intelligent people who are believers. Many are here on this forum. What I am saying is that many people who believed with all their hearts and minds stopped believing due to reading and understanding the bible MORE than they did before. It is not a case of "they were never true believers" it is a case of enlightenment and a thirst for the truth on the part of many former believers. Such as myself. Bill nor anyone else can tell me that I did not fully and completely believe in jesus and god at one time in my life. I know my own mind. I stopped believing when I got older and things didn't add up to be true. I did research and found the answers I was looking for in many cases and it was not found in the bible.

To say that the things we don't yet have answers to MUST be attributed to god is as lame as those that say they know for a fact it is not. However, for me I have come to realize that with time most of the unanswered questions get answered and god is not in the equation. So for now I will stick with the facts and leave the fantasy for those that enjoy it.

"Yes, all Christian believers do have doubts at times -- but, there is a huge difference between "doubt" and "denial." In times of despair, one may wonder if God really cares, if God is really there. That can be a true emotional reaction to stress and depression. However, in a spiritual Christian believer -- that will never grow into denying Jesus Christ and God.

For a person who is an intellectual Christian; yes, such hardships may lead him/her to outright denial of Jesus Christ. But, this is only an indication that this person never really had a relationship with Him. Anyone can intellectually believe in Jesus Christ. Satan and all his demonic spirits believe in Jesus Christ -- but, they are not Christian believers.

Simplistic? Yes, but true. No one who has a true relationship with Jesus Christ can or will walk away from Him."
------------------------------------------------

Not true Bill. Plenty of people who were absolute believers at one time have come to the conclusion there is no god. I was one of those people. Growing up I fully believed until my change of mind began to take place. I see you're still blaming the change of mind people have on traumas, or some terrible event that made them feel "god" had left them. No Bill, that is not how it happens. When it happens it's an awakening. You finally face what you've been thinking for a while, and that is it just does not make any sense to believe in god. Any "turmoil" you might have is asking yourself if there is any way you CAN make sense out of the bible stories, any way you can see that they could be possible. When your common sense finally wins out and you know there is no way it can be true, you're an atheist. There is no one, nothing, that can "preach" to me and make me ever believe in a god. I know you have to keep finding excuses for atheists because you can't stand the thought that we're right, but just because YOU say they never believed doesn't make it so.

Jennifer,

Your track is very similar to mine though has arrived at a different conclusion. I was raised in an environment of very literalist, fundamentalist types and was fully primed and taught in that way. Once I reached my teens and twenties, going to college and spreading my wings, I slowly emerged into a reality that I couldn't subscribe to nor defend that literal, fundamentalist stand.

I didn't completely walk away from my faith but I did kind of set it aside. As time went on I spent alot of time deconstructing Christianity. I set out to learn more about the faith, its context across various disciplines and its significance and application to my life and those around me.

As it's turned out, I'm reconstructed to the point of peace and comfort with a faith that is ever-present and applicable but one that will stretch and not be threatened by one brick being pulled out of the wall.

There are many things that I believe with concrete certainty, many things that are flexible and even peripheral, many that I can't explain and many that are mysteries (and I believe intended as such). I'm good with that and seek to live consistently within that framework. As the old nugget goes, God works in mysterious ways and, I believe, even when we're not aware of it looking to work us toward what is best for us.