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Bill Gray refused to answer this question in another thread but it is good forum fodder.

The bible clearly states that we atheists must be killed. In fact, God Himself commanded it when He said, "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." -- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

So how come y'all aren't killing us where we stand? God Himself commanded it , after all.

(Oh, and Bill, I looked in the Atheist Bible, "The God Delusion," and would you believe there is not a single verse in there requiring atheists to kill believers? I swear to god there isn't.)
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that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded

Well, are you serving the gods of the sun or the moon? Are you wicked?
I don't think so. Atheists are safe.
Devil worshipers will have a problem.
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Old Testament Law, Skep.


That Jesus came to uphold, remember? Perhaps you are good with abandoning the 10 Commandments since they are so Old school? Heck why not just toss out the whole embarrassing OT?

Or perhaps you are suggesting that God changed over time? Perhaps got some professional help to deal with his anger issues?

Joy, my friend, God is unchanging. A Rock. Hos law is written in stone. You must throw a rock at me if you are to be an observant Christian.

If it helps, you are welcomed to throw one at Fine first.
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Originally posted by Skeptik:
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Well, are you serving the gods of the sun or the moon?


Certain;y. My reverence for the stars and planets and the universe in general could certainly be considered worshipful.

I am coming more and more to realize that Einstein was correct in his admission that he worshiped Spinoza's god of nature.


Agree
I think uphold is incorrect, Skeptic. He came to fulfill the law and I'm just going by what scripture actually says.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. " Rom 8:1-9

There's more in chapter 8 if you want to read it, but you get the general idea.
The Old Testament is a script of history passed down through traditions and embellished by the story tellers. The laws have their basis in providing primitive man guidance to prevent death, plague, disease, and general disorder. If you examine the context it was generally giving a group of people a way to survive during those times. While I am not a scholar of various religious documents, my amateur evaluation of various religions tells me it is one of the few documents to go in such an extent to protect the people. (Some of my memory comes from that Religion 101 class I took about 25 years ago at Auburn.)

Many events documented in the Old Testament most likely happened in some form or another but were embellished for tradition. The context is only important in the interpretation and how it might apply to today's situation. Reading it literally really isn't the intention (now you are going to get me stoned, but I told you my faith was a little different).

I'm sorry Skeptik, but today we have secular rules that replace much of the guidance provided in the theological government guiding the people documented in the Old Testament. It is a historical document. So, while many may not agree with what we say, they cannot stone us lest they fall upon the wrath of our current government.

Now if you listen to some people they would have us install a theocracy. Take a peak at Iran. In some respects the theocracy is rather strict and helps eliminate troublemakers in a quick fashion. But I think I'll pass and stick with out good old republic.

Now if you are in the mood for some good self flagellation I have some fence mending still needed in the upper pasture. I'll be happy to let you hack away at it. But I just don't have the need to stone you. Sorry my friend. I'd go out and have a beer with you but my medical condition says I can't have alcohol. How about we go out and I'll buy you a beer and we can save a few stones.

If you are in the mood for a good stoning I imagine you can travel to some exotic area and find where there is some deviant who will help you out. I would appreciate it if you could take a few stones from my pasture for the job. I need it cleaned up. But you may prefer the whips and leather because you would heal faster that way.

quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Old Testament Law, Skep.


That Jesus came to uphold, remember? Perhaps you are good with abandoning the 10 Commandments since they are so Old school? Heck why not just toss out the whole embarrassing OT?

Or perhaps you are suggesting that God changed over time? Perhaps got some professional help to deal with his anger issues?

Joy, my friend, God is unchanging. A Rock. Hos law is written in stone. You must throw a rock at me if you are to be an observant Christian.

If it helps, you are welcomed to throw one at Fine first.

Hey!
What you "skeptics" fail to realize is that Jesus came to FULFILL the law. Next, you fail to relize what "the law" is. It IS NOT the 10 commandments, nor is it all of the Levitical Laws of the OldTestament. It is, however, THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. That law says that the soul that sinneth, shall surely die.Ezekiel 18:4.

Jesus came to fulfill THAT LAW so that we, as weak in the flesh did not have to spend eternity completely separated from HIM. When Jesus spoke from the cross, one of the sayings from Him was "It is finished" Remember He also said "FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". sO WE DO NOT HAVE TO STONE ATHEISTS because the Bible "tells us to". Thank you very much.
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Originally posted by Skeptik:
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I think uphold is incorrect, Skeptic. He came to fulfill the law and I'm just going by what scripture actually says.


Joy,

I fail to discern the statement that releases you from having to stone me.

Little help?


Ahem, my friend you are super intelligent, you know that the old law was done away with.

I always find it interesting that anyone thinks the laws governing a group of individuals wandering in the desert (and their descendants who lived in similar otherwise unregulated times) appalls anyone, but the same people think nothing odd about Stephen King's heros utilizing similar tactics in The Stand.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
I think uphold is incorrect, Skeptic. He came to fulfill the law and I'm just going by what scripture actually says.


Joy,

I fail to discern the statement that releases you from having to stone me.

Little help?


Okay, let me see if I can say this without writing a book...haha...and anyone is welcome to disagree with me.

First, the Mosaic Covenant was given to the the nation of Israel and you are not an Israelite. Smiler

Laws had different purposes...some were to instruct on how to please God (10 commandments for example), some were to show them how to atone for sin (sacrificial system) & some were to set them apart from other nations (food & clothing rules). I guess punishments for disobedience of Law would fall under the latter.

When Christ came, he offered a new covenant not only to the Jews, but to all people (that's us) & his sacrifice made Mosaic Covenant rules and regulations no longer necessary. This is because Jesus FULFILLED the righteous requirements demanded by the Law with the sacrifice of Himself. As stated in Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

Also, in Galatians 3:23-25 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

Again in Ephesian 2:15 "by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace."

Now does this make the entire Old Testament completely irrelevant to Christians today? No, but it does take care of the righteous requirements of the Law. Christ said "love God" and "love others", on those two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets. Many parts of the OT fall into the categories of loving God and loving others, we can also see examples of faith, etc. However, again, "By calling this covenant 'new', he has made the first one obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).

Well, I tried, but that IS the condensed version. <hee, hee>
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Ahem, my friend you are super intelligent, you know that the old law was done away with.


Well, *I* know that, and *you* know that but there is a very large contingent that do not know that and, instead, arbitrarily pick and choose which laws to enforce and which to ignore.

I'm not mentioned any names but his initials are Bill Gray.
quote:
Many parts of the OT fall into the categories of loving God and loving others


Many? Exactly which ones? How does one determine what covenants to keep and which to ignore?

According to most of you, Noah, Adam and Eve, Jonah and other wild and crazy stories are literal truth and will argue that point quite passionately.

Yet that exact same group says we can safely ignore anything we disagree with.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Many parts of the OT fall into the categories of loving God and loving others


Many? Exactly which ones? How does one determine what covenants to keep and which to ignore?

According to most of you, Noah, Adam and Eve, Jonah and other wild and crazy stories are literal truth and will argue that point quite passionately.

Yet that exact same group says we can safely ignore anything we disagree with.

The problem skep is that you are attempting to use a logical approach to what is and isn't the word of the bible. The bible doesn't follow logic or reason hence the many many contradictions. You need to try a different approach. Close your mind to reason and logic, NEVER expect your beliefs to make sense (your tiny little brain can't handle that much power) and just go with the flow man. Life is so much better when you are part of the "in" crowd. And Jesus is all the craze right now.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Many parts of the OT fall into the categories of loving God and loving others


Many? Exactly which ones? How does one determine what covenants to keep and which to ignore?

According to most of you, Noah, Adam and Eve, Jonah and other wild and crazy stories are literal truth and will argue that point quite passionately.

Yet that exact same group says we can safely ignore anything we disagree with.


According to WHO? I showed you the answer from scripture. It's not even hard to understand. So, FV is right. The dumb act is not working for you, or fine.
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Some parties I just don't want to attend. The ones with the "kool-aid" are good examples.


Now there is a good example of one crazed out megalomaniac who didn't even die with dignity. You would have to admit that if you believed in some sort of judgment after your time on this rock you wouldn't want to be that guy. If Spock were real and could do a "Vulcan mind meld" with this dude it might even corrupt his Vulcan perfection.

quote:
Originally posted by fineazell1:
Joy
You are still missing the question.
You said

"Now does this make the entire Old Testament completely irrelevant to Christians today? No, but it does take care of the righteous requirements of the Law".

According to whom? Who chooses the relevancy of individual parts of the OT?

A name will suffice.


Well, obviously, the writers of the New Testament since that's what I quoted. Big Grin
In all seriousness, I love many of the stories from the Old Testament & am encouraged/amazed by their faith in and obedience to God without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but as clearly outlined in scripture, I am under a new covenant. Scripture spells that out.

Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

Galatians 3:23-25 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

Ephesian 2:15 "by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace."

Heb. 8:13 "By calling this covenant 'new', he has made the first one obsolete."

BTW, loving God with ALL my heart, ALL my mind, ALL my soul and ALL my strength and loving ALL others as much as I love myself is hard, but with the Holy Spirit, I get it right sometimes. Thankfully, even when I don't get right, Christ covers me. He's got my back.

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Last edited by _Joy_

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