Baby Joseph' to Undergo Surgery for Portable Breathing Tube at U.S. Hospital

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Originally posted by O No!:
Yeah but according to Unob, they just did it so they could get into his diaper. He thinks the entire Catholic church should be condemned.

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yes, i think the entire church ought to suffer the same consequences that a private institution should suffer; seized assets and jail time for every cardinal that was involved with the unfathomably vast coverup.

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I grieve for this baby, and endure the suffering of his parents.

This poor child will die soon, and rather than heroic efforts by a self-serving "right to life" group that disregards human suffering, he should be placed into appropriate hospice care, not super-expensive life-extending nonsense.

What sort of life is available to a baby in a vegetative state with a trach tube? Especially when his ultimate fate is already known?

Y'all can hold me to this: When my time comes, and I'm wasting away in a hospital, put my nearly-dead ass in a hospice and send all the money you save on efforts like this to African AIDS relief. I'm serious.

"True Fact": Half of the money the average American spends on health care is in the last two years of that person's life.

Medical ethics is a tricky and subtle field. I happen to know an impressive young lady with a degree in such. She's much smarter than I. But it cannot be denied that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to extend the life of a terminal patient by weeks or months is an issue we must address when we engage in the inevitable discussion of why American health care is so dammmed expensive.

nsns

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I grieve for this baby, and endure the suffering of his parents.

This poor child will die soon, and rather than heroic efforts by a self-serving "right to life" group that disregards human suffering, he should be placed into appropriate hospice care, not super-expensive life-extending nonsense.

What sort of life is available to a baby in a vegetative state with a trach tube? Especially when his ultimate fate is already known?

Y'all can hold me to this: When my time comes, and I'm wasting away in a hospital, put my nearly-dead ass in a hospice and send all the money you save on efforts like this to African AIDS relief. I'm serious.

"True Fact": Half of the money the average American spends on health care is in the last two years of that person's life.

Medical ethics is a tricky and subtle field. I happen to know an impressive young lady with a degree in such. She's much smarter than I. But it cannot be denied that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to extend the life of a terminal patient by weeks or months is an issue we must address when we engage in the inevitable discussion of why American health care is so dammmed expensive.

nsns

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
b,

Hospice care is still care. The baby would be given oxygen therapy.

trach tubes hurt. They're prolonging his already foregone life. In pain.

We wouldn't do that to a dog, but we'll do it to each other, and why?

The curse of religion.

nsns

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b, get with it.

200 years ago, god's will would have been done. Now it's been corrupted by evil priests who enjoy human suffering.

Enough with the rationalizations, enough with the false humanity, enough with the ersatz compassion. The artificial extensions of life, past any point of quality of life, in the name of religion is just another example of it's evil nature.

Don't be so wicked.

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Don't be so wicked. After reasonable efforts to overcome his natural affliction, let Nature take its course. I insist on such for me, when it's my time.

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Originally posted by b50m:

The hospital was not going to do hospice care. They were going to pull the tube while in the hospital. Then after all the fuss, they were going to let them take him home, THEN pull the tube. Nothing, just let him smother. Maybe you find that humane, I don't. How could he be in pain in a vegetative state? Terry Shivo lived for 20 years that way and smiled before the government decided to let her starve to death. Yes, NS, that was very Christian of them.

When your time comes, I hope it is painless and doesn't involve someone else deciding how much pain you feel or how long you should live before they pull the plug.

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Originally posted by A. Robustus:

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I grieve for this baby, and endure the suffering of his parents.

This poor child will die soon, and rather than heroic efforts by a self-serving "right to life" group that disregards human suffering, he should be placed into appropriate hospice care, not super-expensive life-extending nonsense.

What sort of life is available to a baby in a vegetative state with a trach tube? Especially when his ultimate fate is already known?

Y'all can hold me to this: When my time comes, and I'm wasting away in a hospital, put my nearly-dead ass in a hospice and send all the money you save on efforts like this to African AIDS relief. I'm serious.

"True Fact": Half of the money the average American spends on health care is in the last two years of that person's life.

Medical ethics is a tricky and subtle field. I happen to know an impressive young lady with a degree in such. She's much smarter than I. But it cannot be denied that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to extend the life of a terminal patient by weeks or months is an issue we must address when we engage in the inevitable discussion of why American health care is so dammmed expensive.

nsns

Well stated.

The immense fear of death exhibited by religious cultures is not coincidental. The prolonging or preservation of "life" at any cost is an emotionally stunted denial of the inevitable.

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Then after all the fuss, they were going to let them take him home, THEN pull the tube. Nothing, just let him smother.

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Terry Shivo lived for 20 years that way and smiled before the government decided to let her starve to death.

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Originally posted by Unobtanium:

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Terry Shivo lived for 20 years that way and smiled before the government decided to let her starve to death.

it wasn't a "smile" b50.

the autopsy conducted after her death established that her brain damage was even worse than experts had said while she was alive, and that virtually everything the "save Terri" activists had said was incorrect. schiavo's brain weighed about half what a healthy human brain weighs, damage that left her unable to think, feel, see, or interact in any way with her environment. there was no chance she could have recovered.

a person in a permanent vegetative state (PVS) has sleep-wake cycles or periods when he/she is awake and periods when he/she is asleep, can cough, sneeze, scratch and even cry or smile at times. the person may at times move his/her arms or legs. a person in a PVS may have automatic reactions to touch (drawing the body part away), sound (turning the head toward) and light (blinking the eyelids). the person’s eyes move and stop randomly. if the person’s gaze happens to momentarily stop in the direction of someone at the bedside, that person might misinterpret this as “He/she is looking at me!” these behaviors can be disconcerting and confusing to an onlooker, especially a loved one, who may misinterpret them as an indication that the person in a PVS has awareness but is unable to communicate this to those around them. however, all of these are automatic behaviors that do not require any functioning of the thinking part of the brain.

once again, a shining example of how religion can cause an intelligent person to completely shut-out scientific truths in favor of comforting illusions.

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Originally posted by b50m:

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b, get with it.

200 years ago, god's will would have been done. Now it's been corrupted by evil priests who enjoy human suffering.

Enough with the rationalizations, enough with the false humanity, enough with the ersatz compassion. The artificial extensions of life, past any point of quality of life, in the name of religion is just another example of it's evil nature.

Don't be so wicked.

Wicked? You have no idea of what I have witnessed or what I have dealt with. You make your proclamations of how the world should be done according to YOU, but don't give a damm about what anybody else thinks. You and Bill are two sides of the same coin.

Calling someone evil because they don't want to asphyxiate a child is very noble. That trach tube would be nothing compared to smothering to death. A charge of 'False humanity' from someone who condemns humanity on a daily basis is a little hypocritical, don't you think? Why don't you get your sanctimonious head out of your azz, and realize that what you want is only OK for you? Nobody else has to follow your ideas, your suggestions or your view of the world. Luckily, we are all different and that is what makes the useless rock work, but you are only the master of you and no one else and you sure as hell ain't the judge and jury of me.

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
It's sickening, and not just for Baby Joseph, but for us all.

Every several years, I have to have a pet put down. Like everyone else, I do it for compassionate reasons. Why can't we extend the same compassion to our fellow humans in the same fashion, when all hope is gone? How many people must lie helpless in hospital beds every day, begging to die, while we string them along and resuscitate them at the expense of their dignity, peace, and at the cost of their suffering?

Durn tootin' it's wicked. Death happens. I'm resigned to it, but I'd like to put it off as long as possible. When the reaper shows up, I'll flip him off and go with him regardless, and dammed be he who gets in the way at my expense.

nsns

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Originally posted by Unobtanium:

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Terry Shivo lived for 20 years that way and smiled before the government decided to let her starve to death.

it wasn't a "smile" b50.

the autopsy conducted after her death established that her brain damage was even worse than experts had said while she was alive, and that virtually everything the "save Terri" activists had said was incorrect. schiavo's brain weighed about half what a healthy human brain weighs, damage that left her unable to think, feel, see, or interact in any way with her environment. there was no chance she could have recovered.

a person in a permanent vegetative state (PVS) has sleep-wake cycles or periods when he/she is awake and periods when he/she is asleep, can cough, sneeze, scratch and even cry or smile at times. the person may at times move his/her arms or legs. a person in a PVS may have automatic reactions to touch (drawing the body part away), sound (turning the head toward) and light (blinking the eyelids). the person’s eyes move and stop randomly. if the person’s gaze happens to momentarily stop in the direction of someone at the bedside, that person might misinterpret this as “He/she is looking at me!” these behaviors can be disconcerting and confusing to an onlooker, especially a loved one, who may misinterpret them as an indication that the person in a PVS has awareness but is unable to communicate this to those around them. however, all of these are automatic behaviors that do not require any functioning of the thinking part of the brain.

once again, a shining example of how religion can cause an intelligent person to completely shut-out scientific truths in favor of comforting illusions.

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

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Originally posted by b50m:

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b, get with it.

200 years ago, god's will would have been done. Now it's been corrupted by evil priests who enjoy human suffering.

Enough with the rationalizations, enough with the false humanity, enough with the ersatz compassion. The artificial extensions of life, past any point of quality of life, in the name of religion is just another example of it's evil nature.

Don't be so wicked.

Wicked? You have no idea of what I have witnessed or what I have dealt with. You make your proclamations of how the world should be done according to YOU, but don't give a damm about what anybody else thinks. You and Bill are two sides of the same coin.

Calling someone evil because they don't want to asphyxiate a child is very noble. That trach tube would be nothing compared to smothering to death. A charge of 'False humanity' from someone who condemns humanity on a daily basis is a little hypocritical, don't you think? Why don't you get your sanctimonious head out of your azz, and realize that what you want is only OK for you? Nobody else has to follow your ideas, your suggestions or your view of the world. Luckily, we are all different and that is what makes the useless rock work, but you are only the master of you and no one else and you sure as hell ain't the judge and jury of me.

Did I say wicked? Sorry, I meant to say "wicked". We've all seen things, we've all been through things. Enough to have some compassion and let the terminally ill die without the unnecessary expense and prolonged pain (for the patient and the family) of heroic, yet futile, efforts in their last days.

Condemn humanity? Moi? I revel in it, I cherish it, and I insist it be practically used. That includes letting the terminally ill pass without undue suffering and expense. How many curable instances of childhood leukemia could be effected rather than 24/7 nursing care for this poor child with his trach tube?

Canadian medicine is hardly primitive. Baby Joseph does not lack for opinions on his condition.

You've questioned my motives, which I resent. We must learn that death is inevitable and when the time comes, simply go without soaking up emotions and money that could be better used. If there was any chance that Baby Joseph, or I, in another foreseeable instance, could be saved, then by all means, go for it at all costs. But the poor boy is the living dead. He's in a permanent vegetative state, according to the video you posted, and he's trying to die, but the evil priests who pretend to love life at all costs will not let him go. They are possibly prolonging, without reason or cause, his suffering. Certainly they are giving false hope to his family.

It's sickening, and not just for Baby Joseph, but for us all.

Every several years, I have to have a pet put down. Like everyone else, I do it for compassionate reasons. Why can't we extend the same compassion to our fellow humans in the same fashion, when all hope is gone? How many people must lie helpless in hospital beds every day, begging to die, while we string them along and resuscitate them at the expense of their dignity, peace, and at the cost of their suffering?

Durn tootin' it's wicked. Death happens. I'm resigned to it, but I'd like to put it off as long as possible. When the reaper shows up, I'll flip him off and go with him regardless, and dammed be he who gets in the way at my expense.

nsns

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Originally posted by Jennifer:
Maybe I read it wrong, but my understanding is that they aren't asking for extraordinary measures, they know the baby is dying. They just want to take the baby home to die, and he will need the breathing tube until that happens. Doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

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[slim]My friends, we face a real crisis in the issue of health care. Since half of all health care expense happens in the last two years of one's life, we must make sober, mature decisions about prolonging the inevitable. I say this as a man closer to the end than the beginning. I'm not willing to consume the wealth of my fellow Americans to extend my life artificially for weeks or months when that money could be better spent elsewhere. If there's a chance, go for it. If not, let me go, painlessly, please.

I challenge all of you to consider this.

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Originally posted by buffalo:

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[slim]My friends, we face a real crisis in the issue of health care. Since half of all health care expense happens in the last two years of one's life, we must make sober, mature decisions about prolonging the inevitable. I say this as a man closer to the end than the beginning. I'm not willing to consume the wealth of my fellow Americans to extend my life artificially for weeks or months when that money could be better spent elsewhere. If there's a chance, go for it. If not, let me go, painlessly, please.

I challenge all of you to consider this.

Slim,
I’ll bet you won’t get one single atheist candidate to agree with you.

Sad, the poor man has lost his mind.

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Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:

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Originally posted by buffalo:

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[slim]My friends, we face a real crisis in the issue of health care. Since half of all health care expense happens in the last two years of one's life, we must make sober, mature decisions about prolonging the inevitable. I say this as a man closer to the end than the beginning. I'm not willing to consume the wealth of my fellow Americans to extend my life artificially for weeks or months when that money could be better spent elsewhere. If there's a chance, go for it. If not, let me go, painlessly, please.

I challenge all of you to consider this.

Slim,
I’ll bet you won’t get one single atheist candidate to agree with you.

Sad, the poor man has lost his mind.

I strongly agree with him. We're going to have to make some mature decisions when Grandma is on her death bed. It's just the way things are.

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Originally posted by buffalo:

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Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:

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Originally posted by buffalo:

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[slim]My friends, we face a real crisis in the issue of health care. Since half of all health care expense happens in the last two years of one's life, we must make sober, mature decisions about prolonging the inevitable. I say this as a man closer to the end than the beginning. I'm not willing to consume the wealth of my fellow Americans to extend my life artificially for weeks or months when that money could be better spent elsewhere. If there's a chance, go for it. If not, let me go, painlessly, please.

I challenge all of you to consider this.

Slim,
I’ll bet you won’t get one single atheist candidate to agree with you.

Sad, the poor man has lost his mind.

I strongly agree with him. We're going to have to make some mature decisions when Grandma is on her death bed. It's just the way things are.

You are living on grandma’s knowledge right now opie/uno. When she’s gone you will more than likely have the deer in headlights look on your face when reality sets in.

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NSNS:You've questioned my motives, which I resent.

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Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example Is not guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason.

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So, according to Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health care advisor to President Obama, the elderly with dementia and the young who have neurological disorders should be sacrificed for the common good.

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Originally posted by b50m:

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So, according to Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health care advisor to President Obama, the elderly with dementia and the young who have neurological disorders should be sacrificed for the common good.

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Terry Schiavo should have been a lesson for us all, but some are immune to lessons.

She was dead in every human fashion except that her heart kept beating in some autonomic fashion. Human life, as we define it, was beyond her. Behind her.

Communist? Sir, I'm a Republican. LOL, that's funny. Communist. Really.

My friends, we face a real crisis in the issue of health care. Since half of all health care expense happens in the last two years of one's life, we must make sober, mature decisions about prolonging the inevitable. I say this as a man closer to the end than the beginning. I'm not willing to consume the wealth of my fellow Americans to extend my life artificially for weeks or months when that money could be better spent elsewhere. If there's a chance, go for it. If not, let me go, painlessly, please.

I challenge all of you to consider this.

nsns

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But if you condone abortion, whats wrong with another way to murder.