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Barack Obama Through Muslim Eyes

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

The article below reflects what I have long felt. Regardless of Obama's religious affiliation, if he is elected president of the United States, the Militant Islamic factions can use this to strengthen their cause. Obama as president of the United States will be a huge plus for Al-Qaeda and all Militant Islamic groups. Keep this in mind as you vote in November.

Now, before someone complains that this should be on the Politics Forum -- the article below is discussing Obama's real or perceived "Religious Affiliation." Gee, I guess we just cannot divorce religion from politics after all. Try explaining "separation of church and state" to a Muslim. And, what if he is president of the United States?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
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Barack Obama Through Muslim Eyes
By Daniel Pipes FrontPageMagazine.com -- Monday, August 25, 2008
Link

How do Muslims see Barack Hussein Obama? They have three choices: either as he presents himself – someone who has "never been a Muslim" and has "always been a Christian"; or as a fellow Muslim; or as an apostate from Islam.

Reports suggests that while Americans generally view the Democratic candidate having had no religion before converting at Reverend Jeremiah Wrights's hands at age 27, Muslims the world over rarely see him as Christian but usually as either Muslim or ex-Muslim.

Lee Smith of the Hudson Institute explains why: "Barack Obama's father was Muslim and therefore, according to Islamic law, so is the candidate. In spite of the Quranic verses explaining that there is no compulsion in religion, a Muslim child takes the religion of his or her father. … for Muslims around the world, non-American Muslims at any rate, they can only ever see Barack Hussein Obama as a Muslim." In addition, his school record from Indonesia lists him as a Muslim

Thus, an Egyptian newspaper, Al-Masri al-Youm, refers to his "Muslim origins." Libyan ruler Mu‘ammar al-Qaddafi referred to Obama as "a Muslim" and a person with an "African and Islamic identity." One Al-Jazeera analysis calls him a "non-Christian man," a second refers to his "Muslim Kenyan" father, and a third, by Naseem Jamali, notes that "Obama may not want to be counted as a Muslim but Muslims are eager to count him as one of their own."

A conversation in Beirut, quoted in the Christian Science Monitor, captures the puzzlement. "He has to be good for Arabs because he is a Muslim," observed a grocer. "He's not a Muslim, he's a Christian," replied a customer. Retorted the grocer: "He can't be a Christian. His middle name is Hussein." Arabic discussions of Obama sometimes mention his middle name as a code, with no further comment needed.

"The symbolism of a major American presidential candidate with the middle name of Hussein, who went to elementary school in Indonesia," reports Tamara Cofman Wittes of the Brookings Institution from a U.S.-Muslim conference in Qatar, "that certainly speaks to Muslims abroad." Thomas L. Friedman of the New York Times found that Egyptians "don't really understand Obama's family tree, but what they do know is that if America — despite being attacked by Muslim militants on 9/11 — were to elect as its president some guy with the middle name ‘Hussein,' it would mark a sea change in America-Muslim world relations."

Some American Muslim leaders also perceive Obama as Muslim. The president of the Islamic Society of North America, Sayyid M. Syeed, told Muslims at a conference in Houston that whether Obama wins or loses, his candidacy will reinforce that Muslim children can "become the presidents of this country." The Nation of Islam's Louis Farrakhan called Obama "the hope of the entire world" and compared him to his religion's founder, Fard Muhammad.

But this excitement also has a dark side – suspicions that Obama is a traitor to his birth religion, an apostate (murtadd) from Islam. Al-Qaeda has prominently featured Obama's stating "I am not a Muslim" and one analyst, Shireen K. Burki of the University of Mary Washington, sees Obama as "bin Laden's dream candidate." Should he become U.S. commander in chief, she believes, Al-Qaeda would likely "exploit his background to argue that an apostate is leading the global war on terror … to galvanize sympathizers into action."

Mainstream Muslims tend to tiptoe around this topic. An Egyptian supporter of Obama, Yasser Khalil, reports that many Muslims react "with bewilderment and curiosity" when Obama is described as a Muslim apostate; Josie Delap and Robert Lane Greene of the Economist even claim that the Obama-as-apostate theme "has been notably absent" among Arabic-language columnists and editorialists.

That latter claim is inaccurate, for the topic is indeed discussed. At least one Arabic-language newspaper published Burki's article. Kuwait's Al-Watan referred to Obama as "a born Muslim, an apostate, a convert to Christianity." Writing in the Arab Times, Syrian liberal Nidal Na‘isa repeatedly called Obama an "apostate Muslim."

In sum, Muslims puzzle over Obama's present religious status. They resist his self-identification as a Christian while they assume a baby born to a Muslim father and named "Hussein" began life a Muslim. Should Obama become president, differences in Muslim and American views of religious affiliation will create problems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org), director of the Middle East Forum, is the Taube Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University during the spring semester.

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DHS-86DHS-86Hall of Famer
All that proves is that the Muslim community doesn't know. How do we know you are a Christian like you claim? We are told that we will encounter false prophets. That very well could be you. I have always been told that Satan could quote scripture as well as anyone, he knows the bible. Similar to you again. So how can you be so sure Obama is not Christian (if it even matters)? You could be trying to deceive us all, claiming you are a Christian when in reality you may be Satan.
N nealmhughesFamiliar Face
I strongly have suspected that Brother Bill is a deep cover agent out to make the Christian Church look as sorry and sordid and ridiculous as possible.
He lies and when caught won't admit it. He calls people names and then can't take a dose back. Either he is insane or senile or a double agent. Maybe all three. He is so out of touch, you know that when he learned the Russians had launched the Sputnik with German scientists he said, "I'm glad to see the Czar and Kaiser are getting along well now, there was a real chance of a World War over Serbia back a few months ago."
8I8IHall of Famer
While I've read Pipes(capmag) for years, and can agree with some of his writing, I don't think Obama is a jihadi in drag. I noticed he quoted some opinions of people without backing them up with fact.

And that is his prerogative.

I did lose a lot of respect for him after he allowed himself to be pimped by Hagee and CUFI.

He does have extensive knowledge of the ME, but has allowed his objectivity to be jaded by religion.

It is obvious Bill is trying hard to make Obama a muslim, but in his(Bill's) defense, I'm fairly certain Jesus told him to do it.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi DHS,

You tell me, "All that proves is that the Muslim community doesn't know."

That could be true; however, as Mr. Pipes article tells us, "The symbolism of a major American presidential candidate with the middle name of Hussein, who went to elementary school in Indonesia," reports Tamara Cofman Wittes of the Brookings Institution from a U.S. - Muslim conference in Qatar, "that certainly speaks to Muslims abroad."

And, Mr. Pipes tells us in his article, "In sum, Muslims puzzle over Obama's present religious status. They resist his self-identification as a Christian while they assume a baby born to a Muslim father and named "Hussein" began life a Muslim. Should Obama become president, differences in Muslim and American views of religious affiliation will create problems."

So, for the Militant Islamic factions -- it matters none whether Obama is an atheist, a Christian, or a Muslim. They can still use his being president of the United States as propaganda -- positive and negative -- for use in recruiting more militants.

Then, you ask, "How do we know you are a Christian like you claim? We are told that we will encounter false prophets. That very well could be you. I have always been told that Satan could quote scripture as well as anyone, he knows the bible. Similar to you again."

That is very true; you cannot know that I am a Christian just because I say that I am; just as we cannot take your word that are a Christian. So, how are we to resolve this dilemma?

Matthew 7:15-16, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. . . "

Matthew 12:33, "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit."

How do we know anyone, even Billy Graham, is a Christian? Truthfully, only that person and God knows for sure. The only guideline we have is the fruit of their Christian life and the fruit of their walk with Jesus Christ. So, while I am far from perfect; I do believe my life is showing Christian fruit.

On the other hand, how can you know that what I write, what I say about God and Scripture is correct? Test it.

The apostle Paul, in Acts 17:11, tells us about the Berean way of testing what he taught, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

Therefore, DHS, I tell you the same thing Paul told the Thessalonians: Get into Scripture; relish, savor the Scripture; and test what I say against Scripture. And, if you honestly find me lacking -- I will be the first to thank you for telling me where I erred.

Finally, DHS, you say, "So how can you be so sure Obama is not Christian (if it even matters)? You could be trying to deceive us all, claiming you are a Christian when in reality you may be Satan."

First of all, if you are a Christian, as you claim -- whether Obama is or is not a Christian would make a great deal of difference to you. If, on the other hand, you are a Sunday Christian, or just get into the Religion Forum because you love to argue -- then, whatever Obama believes or does not believe will matter little to you.

I have not said one way or the other that Obama is a Muslim or that he is a Christian. Mr. Pipes, in his article, told us of the dangers inherent to America if Obama were to become president -- because of this confusion over where Obama stands on the issue of Christianity and the Muslim faith.

As I said earlier, you and I cannot know if Obama is a Christian -- only he and God knows for sure. However, in measuring the fruit of his walk -- whether it be Christian, Muslim, or Secular -- I find him very lacking.

I find his strong stand for Abortion to be offensive.

I find his strong stand for the Homosexual Agenda very offensive.

I find his strong stand against Traditional Marriage very offensive.

As a matter of fact, the only positive thing I can find to like about Obama is his smile and his oratorical skills. And, on the second, he seems to be at a loss for words without his teleprompter.

However, I certainly will not vote for a president based solely on his smile and his speaking skills.

Before I close, let me address the post by LuvTeaching. You say, "DHS-86 -- Thank you. Mr. Gray -- It is people like you who turn so many away from the grace and forgiveness of Christianity."

Well, Luv, from your posting name, I take it you are a teacher. I greatly admire teachers. From my years of growing up in Sheffield, I can name a number of outstanding teachers -- and I would begin with Mr. and Mrs. Threadgill from my early school years. However, many teachers today are a product of the NEA -- which is the bastard child of the ACLU -- and, because of that, they are Left-leaning Liberals. I am not saying this is true of all teachers -- just that the NEA has infected a great number of today's teachers.

Now to your comment that Christians like me turn folks away from the grace and forgiveness of Christianity. You are, I assume, speaking of the Social Theology version of Christianity; that leg of Christian theology which refuses to teach Repentance, Sin, Hell, etc. In other words, I gather you lean more toward the Seeker Friendly churches who go out of their way not to offend anyone by saying some of those bad words: hell, heaven, sin, repentance, etc.

Well, Luv, if my adherence to the full Gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive to you; then, you have a much bigger problem than what Bill Gray writes.

My suggestion, Luv -- get into a Jesus-Centered, Bible-Teaching church -- and really get to know Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by nealmhughes:
I strongly have suspected that Brother Bill is a deep cover agent out to make the Christian Church look as sorry and sordid and ridiculous as possible.
He lies and when caught won't admit it. He calls people names and then can't take a dose back. Either he is insane or senile or a double agent. Maybe all three. He is so out of touch, you know that when he learned the Russians had launched the Sputnik with German scientists he said, "I'm glad to see the Czar and Kaiser are getting along well now, there was a real chance of a World War over Serbia back a few months ago."

Hi Neal,

Thank you for your very CHRISTIAN(?) comments. We all know that we can count on you to set the bar for Christian attitudes and action.

By the way, you never responded on my question about having to be "Licensed" to read the Bible in church -- and if my driver's license is sufficient.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
He (Pipes) does have extensive knowledge of the Middle East, but has allowed his objectivity to be jaded by religion.

It is obvious Bill is trying hard to make Obama a muslim, but in his(Bill's) defense, I'm fairly certain Jesus told him to do it.

Hi Miami,

In your atheist frame of reference, anyone who says, "Praise God" is jaded by religion.

And, no, you are wrong. I am not trying to tell folks that Obama is a Muslim. What I am telling folks is that -- regardless of which hat Obama wears on Sunday -- because of his ties with both Islam and Christianity, the Islamic Militant factions can use this in their efforts to recruit new fanatics. It does not matter what religion Obama claims -- it is what effect that has upon the world. Either way, he is a danger to America and to Americans.

Miami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this point.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
C CTSmall Talker
So you think McCain would be a better choice? Someone who says he is ready and willing to go to war with Muslim nations? I'm sure that doesn't bother Islamic Militant factions.

Bill Gray, its nice of you to help those Islamic Militants out by spreading such ignorance. But, if you want to go along with the article, I would think it would promote peace with those that wish to attack us. Seeing Obama as one of their own would promote a peaceful existence, instead of war.
Number 6Number 6Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by CT:
Seeing Obama as one of their own would promote a peaceful existence, instead of war.


That is not fact but your own opinion. It could also be seen as a way for terrorists to get their feet in the door of the US and have control over our economy by "buying off the president". See I can come up with one too.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by MOBY: According to Sourcewatch:

FrontPageMag.com is a neo-conservative magazine founded by ex-Marxist (Trokskyite) turned neo-conservative activist David Horowitz. FrontPage's output ranges from old-fashioned red-baiting and neocon punditry, to pushing pro-Likud zionist propaganda.
Hi Moby,

Well, we see what SourceWatch says about FrontPageMag.Com. Now, let's look at what Wikipedia and others have to say about SourceWatch.

SourceWatch: Link

SourceWatch (formerly Disinfopedia), is an internet site which is a "collaborative project" of the Center for Media and Democracy (CMD). It was created by the CMD's research director, Sheldon Rampton. According to the project's website, it "aims to produce a directory of public relations firms, think tanks, industry-funded organizations and industry-friendly experts that work to influence public opinion and public policy on behalf of corporations, governments and special interests."

Alan Caruba, a corporate public relations counselor, National Anxiety Center, January 3, 2007, and founder of the National Anxiety Center, writes "Source Watch is a project of the Center of Media & Democracy, a left-wing organization that devotes a lot of time to attacking the public relations profession in general and conservative writers in particular."

SourceWatch was characterized as "a left-leaning group" in The New York Sun.

And, looking at the main person behind SourceWatch, we find:

Sheldon Rampton: Link

In 1995, Rampton teamed with John Stauber as co-editors of PR Watch, a publication of the Center for Media and Democracy (CMD). They have been described as liberal, and their writings are regarded by some members of the public relations industry as one-sided and hostile.

And, elsewhere we find:

Sheldon Rampton: Link [b]

Biography: Sheldon Rampton is John Stauber’s partner at the Center for Media & Democracy and his regular co-author as well. [b]Rampton has a background in left-leaning journalism, as a veteran contributor to publications such as The Nation and In These Times.

So, Moby, it seems that you have SourceWatch saying, "FrontPageMag.com is a neo-conservative magazine."

And we have others that say about SourceWatch, "A left-wing organization that devotes a lot of time to attacking the public relations profession in general and conservative writers in particular.

And, about the SourceWatch founder and main spark plug, Sheldon Rampton, "Rampton has a background in left-leaning journalism."

What do we have here? On the one hand, we have a conservative site posting the Daniel Pipes article which warns us about Obama and the confusion over his position on Christianity and Islam -- and the benefits this will accrue to Militant Islamic groups.

On the other hand, we have a Liberal, Left-leaning site -- which tells us the conservatives are wrong. Golly, gee whiz, can you imagine that? As our dear friend, Gomer Pyle often said, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

Moby, thank you for your comments. Free dialogue is one of the greatest assets of democracy. Yet, I will always take my stand with the Conservative side of any debate.

One last thought. If you will go back and read the quote above from SourceWatch that you gave us -- it is full of name calling and anger. As a matter of fact, when I first read your post, I wondered if the quotation had been altered. Yet, when I went to the SourceWatch web site -- I saw that you had copied it accurately

But, if you will look at the other sources which comment on SourceWatch; you will find that they state the facts, do not get into name calling -- and reflect the honesty and stability of the writer.

Now, which do you think is better: To be a Left-Leaning name caller -- or to be a Conservative factual commentator? As I said, you will always find me in the Conservative corner.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
8I8IHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
He (Pipes) does have extensive knowledge of the Middle East, but has allowed his objectivity to be jaded by religion.

It is obvious Bill is trying hard to make Obama a muslim, but in his(Bill's) defense, I'm fairly certain Jesus told him to do it.

Hi Miami,

In your atheist frame of reference, anyone who says, "Praise God" is jaded by religion.

And, no, you are wrong. I am not trying to tell folks that Obama is a Muslim. What I am telling folks is that -- regardless of which hat Obama wears on Sunday -- because of his ties with both Islam and Christianity, the Islamic Militant factions can use this in their efforts to recruit new fanatics. It does not matter what religion Obama claims -- it is what effect that has upon the world. Either way, he is a danger to America and to Americans.

Miami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this point.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, blindly following an ancient tribal prophecy, borrowed from previous religions, based on the premise of an invisible man in the sky that performs all of the things that they couldn't explain at the time, with absolutely zero evidence is misleading and dangerous.

And to add a few completely ridiculous feats to the story in an effort to make him a comic superhero doesn't fool anyone except the cult followers either....

Your thinly veiled Hagee impersonation of following a fable that finds a happy ending in total annihilation of mankind isn't too smart. I apologize if that offends you, it is not my intention, but as an observer using common sense, reason and logic, it is quite obvious this suicidal pact is reminiscent of a large scale, glorified Waco style BBQ and I'm not interested in attending. Please 86 my invitation, I hope you understand.

And equally sad, I also recognize that due to mass ignorance and stupidity, either Obama or McCain, will become our next president. Three hundred million people and this is best we have to offer??? Are you kidding me??? I know better.

Maybe Vonnegut and Peikoff should be required reading. The current State takeover is marginalizing the individual. As Peikoff pointed out years ago, we're ripe for a totalitarian takeover....

Regards
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Miami,

You say, "Your thinly veiled Hagee impersonation of following a fable that finds a happy ending in total annihilation of mankind isn't too smart. I apologize if that offends you, it is not my intention, but as an observer using common sense, reason and logic, it is quite obvious this suicidal pact is reminiscent of a large scale, glorified Waco style BBQ and I'm not interested in attending. Please 86 my invitation, I hope you understand."

Oh no, my Friend, you have totally misread or misunderstood what we have been saying. There absolutely will NOT be a total annihilation of mankind. Far from that. Every single human who has lived, who lives now, and who might live in the future -- is an eternal soul. We all will live for eternity. It is just a matter of where we will live that eternity.

You suggest a suicidal pact. No, no one wants that. However, we Christian believers do not fear death -- for we know, beyond any doubt, that death is not the end -- but, instead it is just the beginning. We know that our last breath in this life -- will just lead to our first breath in heaven -- never skipping a beat. We are just spending a short time (this life) in Heaven Prep School.

And, that is why we keep telling all of our Forum Friends about Jesus. We want to see every single one of you with us when we go into eternity with Jesus Christ.

You see, Miami, whether you believe it or not -- there are only two eternal destinations: heaven and hell. The grave is not your eternal destination; merely a stopping over place.

Every single person WILL stand before Jesus Christ in judgment. The believers to a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, in heaven -- depending upon what we have done for the name of Jesus in this life.

The non-believer will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, not for rewards, but to review the many times he/she has rejected Jesus Christ and the many times he/she has sinned against Him. Then, after this confirmation, the non-believer will receive his/her one way ticket to hell, where Satan will be waiting to greet them.

Miami, considering the only two destinations -- don't you think that the intelligent thing to do is to get an early reservation and ticket for the Glory Train. That will be a much better ride that the other.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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8I8IHall of Famer
Bill, the problem with a modern day Armageddon is that it would have to be carried out with nuclear weapons. Vaporizing mankind in a large scale atomic fireball isn't a good thing.

In spite of being governed by organized crime and surrounded by fruitcakes, I love my family and friends, and I do like my life here on earth. You'll understand when you get to heaven.

I do hope you get some wings, play a harp, and get your fill of milk and honey.

Oh yeah, be sure and tell god he's fired for being two centuries late for work.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
Bill, the problem with a modern day Armageddon is that it would have to be carried out with nuclear weapons. Vaporizing mankind in a large scale atomic fireball isn't a good thing.

In spite of being governed by organized crime and surrounded by fruitcakes, I love my family and friends, and I do like my life here on earth. You'll understand when you get to heaven.

I do hope you get some wings, play a harp, and get your fill of milk and honey.

Oh yeah, be sure and tell god he's fired for being two centuries late for work.

Hi Miami,

Don't worry; you will have an opportunity to tell Him yourself -- face to face -- at the White Throne Judgment. Of course, by then it will be too late to change your mind.

However, you still have time now to change. But, I would do it right away if I were you. Remember, we are only one heart beat from eternity.

Think about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Neal HughesNeal HughesHall of Famer
quote:
Every single person WILL stand before Jesus Christ in judgment. The believers to a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, in heaven -- depending upon what we have done for the name of Jesus in this life.


So there are degrees in heaven? I am assuming you aim to be a 33rd Degree Scottish Riter then?

Bill, where do you get this stuff? Seriously, where in the world does your cult publish? Do they keep a supply of cyanide in the cellar beside the bulletproofed Bibles?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Neal Hughes:
quote:
Every single person WILL stand before Jesus Christ in judgment. The believers to a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, in heaven -- depending upon what we have done for the name of Jesus in this life.


So there are degrees in heaven? I am assuming you aim to be a 33rd Degree Scottish Riter then?

Bill, where do you get this stuff? Seriously, where in the world does your cult publish? Do they keep a supply of cyanide in the cellar beside the bulletproofed Bibles?

Hi Neal,

If you would only get your nose out of your 1534 written prayer book and into the Bible; you would know this.

Neal, possibly if you will just open your Bible and really study it -- you would not be so intent upon proving the Bible and all Christians wrong. My Friend, you are in dire need of a Biblical Attitude Adjustment.

Yes, there are degrees of rewards in heaven for believers -- and there are degrees of punishment in hell for the less fortunate.

We'll talk about it sometimes. However, right now my king size bed is calling me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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8I8IHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Don't worry; you will have an opportunity to tell Him yourself -- face to face -- at the White Throne Judgment. Of course, by then it will be too late to change your mind.


Really? What's he going to do? Let me spoil it for you: nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero....

I'd love to speak to Jesus, but I'm not delusional, so that will never happen. This figment of many imaginations has no power over me, apparently I'm not fooled as easy as some.

You seem somewhat frustrated by my lack of respect and/or my refusal to acknowledge your wacky fairy tale.

Please don't get upset, and its nothing personal against christianity. I don't drink any religious or cult kool-aid, and I don't worship or bow to any deified person or object.

My advice for you is to study the history of all religions. Education is key to moving forward and freeing yourself from this mythology.

In spite of what some have said, I still believe you can connect dots. The real question for you is if you will move forward and exercise the courage and wisdom to do so.

Good Luck.

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