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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion titled "Bill Gray Poll" begun by my devoted Friend, DHS, I responded to Buffalo's question about the Roman Catholic church, listing 14 Roman Catholic doctrines or teaching with which I disagree.

And, David, responded with, "Please quit saying things that are untrue about Catholics. All 14 things you have listed are either complete untruths!!!! Or they are stretched so far beyond their actual meaning."

I replied to David, "Show me in the Bible where I am wrong about ANY of the 14 truths I shared. Either they are in the Bible -- or they are Vatican man-made Traditions, i.e, not Biblical. So, my Friend, show me where I am wrong -- from Scripture. Show me even ONE of those things written in Scripture."

David's response was, "Bill, What I said was: The 14 things you have listed were lies!!!!! You did not list 14 catholic beliefs. Your (sic) a LIAR....... Your (sic) a LIAR, Your (sic) a LIAR."

When I asked, "Hi David, Then, please tell me which of the 14 are not Roman Catholic doctrine."

David responds without answering my question. He tells me, "You take a a catholic belief and reshape it into something it's not. You stretch our belief and add to it and that makes it a lie."

David, please show me where I have changed, modified, or lied about any Roman Catholic doctrines.

He says, "Infallible bishop? LOL You have NO idea what infallibility of the pope means.... it doesn't mean the pope is without sin."

I never related the pope's supposed "infallibility" to sin. I know that this doctrine teaches that, when the Pope speaks on issues of church teaching and morals -- he cannot make an error. This does not make sense, since Roman Catholics believe that Peter was their first pope -- and Peter made some real boo-boos -- even denying the Lord Himself three times and cursing as he denied Christ. Or the time when Jesus Christ rebuked Peter, saying, "Get thee behind Me, Satan!"

You say your Pope is perfect when he speaks on church issues or morals. I say that ONLY Jesus Christ is perfect in ANY way. NO mortal man is perfect -- in what he does or what he says. We all make mistakes, even those wearing expensive, elaborate robes. Just as Billy Graham or any other man of God is not infallible; the Pope, being a mortal man, is also not infallible -- regardless of what a group of church leaders have declared.

Next, you declare, "Mary DID die, you take our doctrine of assumption of the blessed mother and say "Catholics believe she didn't die" That's not what the doctrine of the assumption is."

From a Roman Catholic web site: ASSUMPTION OF MARY
http://www.americancatholic.or...s/saint.aspx?id=1108

Excerpt 1:

On November 1, 1950, Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary to be a dogma of faith: “We pronounce, declare and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma that the immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory.” The pope proclaimed this dogma only after a broad consultation of bishops, theologians and laity. There were few dissenting voices. What the pope solemnly declared was already a common belief in the Catholic Church.

Bill's Comment: This sure sounds like the Roman Catholic church has declared that Mary was taken, i.e., raptured into heaven. The Bible tells us that Elijah and Enoch were taken up in such a fashion -- but, the only proof we have of Mary being taken up -- is the Roman Catholic doctrines.

Excerpt 2:

Scripture does not give an account of Mary’s Assumption into heaven. Nevertheless, Revelation 12 speaks of a woman who is caught up in the battle between good and evil. Many see this woman as God’s people. Since Mary best embodies the people of both Old and New Testament, her Assumption can be seen as an exemplification of the woman’s victory.

Bill's Comment: Any Bible scholar or theologian (except Roman Catholic) will tell us that the woman with twelve stars in Revelation 12:1-2 is the nation Israel -- and the twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. And, the child she was birthing -- is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Excerpt 3:

Since Mary is closely associated with all the mysteries of Jesus’ life, it is not surprising that the Holy Spirit has led the Church to belief in Mary’s share in his glorification. So close was she to Jesus on earth, she must be with him body and soul in heaven.

Bill's Comment: This Roman Catholic web site tells us, in this statement that Mary was taken into heaven "body and soul." A person who is taken bodily into heaven -- has not died. The only Biblical references to this happening are Elijah and Enoch.

2 King 2:11, "As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

Genesis 5:24, "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

There is no mention anywhere in the Bible that Mary was taken into heaven bodily -- and there is absolutely NO mention in the Bible that Mary shares in the glorification of Jesus Christ.

Then, you say, "Very sneaky..... I can't get into a normal, healthy dialog with you about scripture saying Mary was full of grace, because I realize now that's not your interest, you have an ulterior motive."

Anything and everything you can show me about Scripture, the Written Word of God, the Bible -- is of great interest to me.

Was Mary full of grace? Yes, for all saints, all Christian believers, are full of the grace of God. Was Mary special? Yes, for she was chosen by God to be the human womb through which His Son would be birthed.

But, no where in the Bible do we find, "Hail Mary, full of grace" or even, "Mary, full of grace."

In John 1:14 we read of Jesus Christ, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

And, in Acts 6:8 we read of Stephen, "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."

But, nowhere in the Bible do we read, "Hail Mary, full of grace." That comes from the Roman Catholic teaching of Mariology and the Rosary.

Finally, you say, "The church talks about living saints, Christians that are doing their best walking with Christ. I was told this in 3rd grade..(long ago). geez, you know NOTHING about Catholics."

Well, it would appear that I know more about the Roman Catholic church than you. For I give you facts from your own Roman Catholic web sites, I give you facts from the Bible -- and what do you offer?

Nothing but inane comments such as, "Very sneaky..... I can't get into a normal, healthy dialog with you" - OR -"you know NOTHING about Catholics" - OR - "Your (sic) a LIAR....... Your (sic) a LIAR, Your (sic) a LIAR."

If we are going to have a dialogue, we both need to offer specific facts, supported facts -- not school yard rants.

Now, back to the discussion of saints. While the Bible tells us that ALL Christian believers are saints -- the Roman Catholic church also teaches about special people being "canonized Saints." We find that nowhere in the Bible.

From a Roman Catholic web site: ALL ABOUT SAINTS
http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php

Exactly how many saints are there? There are over 10,000 named saints and beati from history, the Roman Martyology and Orthodox sources, but no definitive "head count."

Do Catholics pray TO saints? We pray with saints, not to them. Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

Bill's Comment: When we ask a person to pray for us -- that person is alive. If that person were dead, how would we talk with him/her to request prayer support? Yet, the Roman Catholics tell us that they can pray with dead "saints." And, Luke 16:19-31 tells us that the dead cannot talk with those still alive in their mortal bodies.

How does the Church choose saints? Canonization, the process the Church uses to name a saint, has only been used since the tenth century. For hundreds of years, starting with the first martyrs of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim. Though this was a more democratic way to recognize saints, some saints' stories were distorted by legend and some never existed. Gradually, the bishops and finally the Vatican took over authority for approving saints.

In 1983, Pope John Paul II made sweeping changes in the canonization procedure. The process begins after the death of a Catholic whom people regard as holy. . . Though canonization is infallible and irrevocable, it takes a long time and a lot of effort.

Bill's Comment: This Roman Catholic web site tells us that the Roman Catholic church chooses who will be saints. The Bible tells us that ALL Christian believers are saints. I like the way J. Vernon McGee lays it out: He tell us that believers are "saints" -- and non-believers are "aints." I could not have said it better myself.

The Roman Catholic church sure makes things difficult. In the Bible, to become a saint all one has to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- believe and receive (John 1:12) His "free gift" of salvation, eternal life in Christ. Why does the Roman Catholic church take the sainthood found in the eternal security of Jesus Christ -- and turn it into a special promotion for a select few?

So, David, can you see why we evangelical, conservative Christian believers -- cannot accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic church when they all contradict the Bible?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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It is a waste of time.
David, don't let it bring you down. He truly believes all the misgivings and myths about the Church, and likes to perpetuate them.
He does know better, yet for some reason, perhaps it makes him feel better to bash it.
I suggest we switch tactics and just pray that he will someday be enlightened.
Infallibility

This grace given to the Vicar of Christ on earth does not guarantee that every time the Pope speaks on a matter of faith or morals he is engaginig infallibility. If such were the case, then there would be no need for distinguishing ex cathedra pronouncements from ordinary locutions, or the solemn from the ordinary magisterium. The following four criteria must be present in order for a papal teaching to be considered ex cathedra , that is, infallible.

from Catholicism.org
Bill, I am not asking you to accept this doctrine, you can believe what you want.
I don't care if you can't find it in your bible.

Just so were clear on what catholic believe.

Bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius,Panarion,78:23(A.D. 377),in PG 42:737

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..."
Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles,1:4(inter A.D. 575-593),in JUR,III:306

"As the most glorious Mother of Christ,our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him."
Modestus of Jerusalem,Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae(PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634) from Munificentis simus Deus

"It was fitting ... that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory ... should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God."
Theoteknos of Livias,Homily on the Assumption(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,57

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dewlling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissoultion into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life."
Germanus of Constantinople,Sermon I(PG 98,346),(ante A.D. 733),from Munificentis simus Deus

"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God"
John of Damascene,Dormition of Mary(PG 96,741),(ante A.D. 749) from Munificentis simus Deus

" 'St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.' "
John of Damascene,PG(96:1)(A.D. 747-751)

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself."
Gregorian Sacramentary,Veneranda(ante A.D. 795), from Munificentis simus Deus

"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men."
Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus

"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb." Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus

"[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception"
Timotheus of Jerusalem(6th-8th century),in OTT,208


This text may downloaded and viewed for private reading only. This text may not be used by another Web site or published, electronically or otherwise, without the written permission of the copyright holder.

Joseph A. Gallegos © 1999 All Rights Reserved.
Again, I'm not a scholar regarding the Roman Catholic faith.

However, according to Roman Catholic soteriology, sanctification comes before justification. It seems that the bible places justification before sanctification. In Roman Catholic soteriology God actually makes the initiate "holy" or "sanctified" and then declares the person justified. This is the reverse of the way Paul lays it out in the epistle to the Romans.

In Roman Catholic soteriology holiness is infused into the believer; it becomes his or her own nature.

In biblical soteriology the righteousness of the sinner is totally "in Christ" and it is an imputed, not infused, state of being. The believer is saved because he or she is identified with Christ, not something that is in and of the person's nature.

That, along with the Augustinian teaching that salvation is "in and from and through the church" are the major differences between the Roman view and the biblical view of salvation.
Again, Bill, I'm not asking you to believe what Catholics do. Just stop spread false truths about us.

What must I do to be saved?

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). However, that's not all. Sacred Scripture clearly shows other things you must also do to be saved:

* You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
* You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
* You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
* You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.
* You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9.
* You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21.
* You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope (and his successors). Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
* You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29.
* Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to His call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. CCC 1996, John 1:12-18, John 17:3, Romans 8:14-17, 2 Peter 1:3-4.


Thank you Scott Hahn for the above list...I'm to tired to type right now.
quote:
Thank you Scott Hahn for the above list...I'm to tired to type right now.


Dr. Hahn is a convert to Catholicism, and a professional apologist, if you will.
He writes wonderful books on apologetics, faith, and all things Catholic.
Those who truly want the Protestant-turned Catholic view would enjoy his books and lectures.
Also- may I recommend Father John Corapi- his lectures will leave you speechless. Many you can see on youtube. Or check out EWTN- on cable and satellite . Smiler

There is enough information "out there" that nobody need take a non-Catholics view of the Catholic Church as truth. Find out for yourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Again, Bill, I'm not asking you to believe what Catholics do. Just stop spread false truths about us.

What must I do to be saved?

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). However, that's not all. Sacred Scripture clearly shows other things you must also do to be saved:

* You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
* You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
* You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
* You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.
* You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9.
* You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21.
* You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope (and his successors). Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
* You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29.
* Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to His call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. CCC 1996, John 1:12-18, John 17:3, Romans 8:14-17, 2 Peter 1:3-4.

Thank you Scott Hahn for the above list...I'm to tired to type right now.

Hi David,

All of those things, with the exception of eating the actual flesh of Jesus Christ and drinking His actual blood -- ARE ALL fruit, i.e., actions resulting FROM our salavation. They are not the cause of our salvation.

How are we saved? Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

But, David, let's go back to a basic question: How much works will YOU have to do to know you have salvation?

Do you have salvation, i.e, are YOU, DAVID, saved today? Do you know that you will go to heaven if you die tomorrow? If yes, then praise God. If not, why not? The Bible tells you that you CAN KNOW.

1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Kraven:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
I believe differently then you Bill.
The good thing is, (the one thing we can agree on is), we both believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I will go to heaven. Praise God. Jesus is merciful!

bill the gray,

If you know as much as you say you do about the Universal church, Then your sin against the word of God is in the first degree.

Hi Kraven,

I have no idea what you are TRYING to say -- and, quite honestly, I do not believe that you do either.

The universal (catholic) church is the body of Christ worldwide, i.e., all Christian believers.

The Roman Catholic church is the one with headquarters in Rome (the Vatican) and is, at best, only a part of the universal church -- even though many of their doctrines are not Biblical.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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A similar thing happened to me. For about twenty years, my step-father had my mother in a cult church.

Bill, that was of course from the "Sweet messengers" thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said elsewhere that your mother was Roman Catholic. If so, do I understand you are calling the Catholic church a "cult church"?
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
A similar thing happened to me. For about twenty years, my step-father had my mother in a cult church.

Bill, that was of course from the "Sweet messengers" thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said elsewhere that your mother was Roman Catholic. If so, do I understand you are calling the Catholic church a "cult church"?

Hi O,

No, I have never said that my mother was in the Roman Catholic church. I said that I have loved ones in the Roman Catholic church; but, I did not say who. One is a TimesDaily Forum member -- but, not sure if doing anything for now but reading. I have not seen any posts.

My mother, for those twenty years, was in the original Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong's church. Praise God we got her out of that and into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ before she died.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Thanks for clearing that up, Bill. And yes, I too thank God that your mother was saved.

Speaking of which, I have always been told that if a Christian is married to a non-believer, they can "claim that spouse for Christ", and that they will be saved. I was once married to an unbeliever. I prayed for him and talked to him, and tried by example to show him God's love, all to no avail.

Of course I can't be sure that in his final moments he didn't silently ask Jesus to come into his life, but I believe he died unsaved. It breaks my heart.
"IF SO, do I understand you are calling the Catholic church a cult church?"

IF SO. But it WASN'T so. He answered my question to my satisfaction.

Listen to me defending Bill Gray! Strange but true. I will always take him on when I think he has said something untrue, but I will also always defend him when I think he's right.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
"IF SO, do I understand you are calling the Catholic church a cult church?"

IF SO. But it WASN'T so. He answered my question to my satisfaction.

Listen to me defending Bill Gray! Strange but true. I will always take him on when I think he has said something untrue, but I will also always defend him when I think he's right.

"THAT'S WHAT FRIEND ARE FOR!" - (Burt Bacharach and Carole Bayer Sager)

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Originally posted by Kraven:
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
Isn't Bill expressing the same type of thing that Protestants generally believe about Roman Catholic doctrine?

Yes he is, and as always not true.

Your arguments shouldn't be directed toward Bill, but toward Luther, Calvin, Zwingly, et al.

Then his arguments shouldn't directed toward me, but to Jesus Christ.

Why would Bill have the only bible that's biblical?

Hi Kraven,

We have a very simple solution. Go to that list of 14 Roman Catholic doctrines which I posted -- and show me Biblical proof that they are not false teachings. Show us those Roman Catholic doctrines IN THE BIBLE.

What could be easier than that? Unless, of course, it cannot be done.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
What could be easier than that? Unless, of course, it cannot be doneWe have a very simple solution. Go to that list of 14 Roman Catholic doctrines which I posted -- and show me Biblical proof that they are not false teachings. Show us those Roman Catholic doctrines IN THE BIBLE. What could be easier than that? Unless, of course, it cannot be done.

It's already been done. On this forum. Go back and search all past posts, and you will see that.

Hi VP,

No, my Friend, you keep saying that -- but, no one has seen it. Maybe you wrote it -- and then forgot to post it. That happens when one starts to get older.

You and David keep saying that I have lied about your doctrines, a serious charge -- but, we have yet to see the proof. The two of you remind me of joke I posted back in 2008 in a dialogue with MeanAsASnake:

I am reminded of a joke I recently heard: A lady goes to her new gyn doctor for a check up. While he was questioning her, she told him she had been married three times. Taken by surprise, the doctor told her, "But, you are still a virgin! How could you have been married three times?"

She explained, "My first husband was gay -- and did not want to. My second husband was an alcoholic -- and could not.

My third husband was a salesman who sat on the side of the bed all night telling me how great it was GOING to be!"


You and David keep telling me how great your proof of my lies is going to be -- but, all you do is talk about it.

I am still waiting for that Missouri proof: SHOW ME! Actually, I know that you cannot -- for you would have to show that your Roman Catholic doctrines are Biblical -- and you cannot show what is not there.

It seems you both are all talk -- and no show!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
What could be easier than that? Unless, of course, it cannot be doneWe have a very simple solution. Go to that list of 14 Roman Catholic doctrines which I posted -- and show me Biblical proof that they are not false teachings. Show us those Roman Catholic doctrines IN THE BIBLE. What could be easier than that? Unless, of course, it cannot be done.

It's already been done. On this forum. Go back and search all past posts, and you will see that.

Hi VP,

No, my Friend, you keep saying that -- but, no one has seen it. Maybe you wrote it -- and then forgot to post it. That happens when one starts to get older.

You and David keep saying that I have lied about your doctrines, a serious charge -- but, we have yet to see the proof. The two of you remind me of joke I posted back in 2008 in a dialogue with MeanAsASnake:

I am reminded of a joke I recently heard: A lady goes to her new gyn doctor for a check up. While he was questioning her, she told him she had been married three times. Taken by surprise, the doctor told her, "But, you are still a virgin! How could you have been married three times?"

She explained, "My first husband was gay -- and did not want to. My second husband was an alcoholic -- and could not.

My third husband was a salesman who sat on the side of the bed all night telling me how great it was GOING to be!"


You and David keep telling me how great your proof of my lies is going to be -- but, all you do is talk about it.

I am still waiting for that Missouri proof: SHOW ME! Actually, I know that you cannot -- for you would have to show that your Roman Catholic doctrines are Biblical -- and you cannot show what is not there.

It seems you both are all talk -- and no show!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Sicko


I can't believe you told a joke that begins with "a lady goes to her new gyn"

Sicko.

Get help Bill. 1-800-therapist.
No, Bill.
I have posted the "rebuttal" to your lies many times.
Please, search the archives.

Kraven has more patience than I. But I will follow his/her lead, and go ahead and tell you where you have lied.

1. You said that Mary is worshipped.
No, Mary is not worshipped. Only Jesus is worshipped.

2. The Gospel is not proclaimed in the Catholic Church.
Every Mass, a reading from the Holy Gospel is read. Every single Mass.

3. The Rosary is 80% prayers to Mary.
Not true. The Rosary is the prayer of the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ALL prayer is in Jesus' Name.

4. Roman Catholic tradition trumps the Bible.
Nope, not true. The Word of God is the center of the Catholic Church.

5. Bishops and the Pope are sinless and infallible.
No. Mary and Jesus are the only sinless. The Pope is infallible under very specific circumstances when led by the Holy Spirit in teaching Church Doctrine.

6. Catholics are cannibals if they believe they are eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus.
There are many many references in all Gospels about the Last Supper. We have debated that ad nauseum and the words of our Lord say it all:
"THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU".

I could go on, but hopefully this will refresh your memory.
Again, please search the archives on any given topic and you will find that Catholic doctrine has been supported.
Hi VP,

You write a long post which basically just says, "I don't agree with you, Bill Gray" -- but, you STILL have NOT given us any Biblical support for your Roman Catholic doctrines. And, you have given NO support for you accusations that I have lied.

All you have done is tell us what YOU believe -- but, with ZERO Biblical proof.

Without Biblical proof, what you and I believe -- plus a dollar -- will get us cup of coffee.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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