Hi to all my Forum Friends,
In the discussion titled "Bill Gray Poll" begun by my devoted Friend, DHS, I responded to Buffalo's question about the Roman Catholic church, listing 14 Roman Catholic doctrines or teaching with which I disagree.
And, David, responded with, "Please quit saying things that are untrue about Catholics. All 14 things you have listed are either complete untruths!!!! Or they are stretched so far beyond their actual meaning."
I replied to David, "Show me in the Bible where I am wrong about ANY of the 14 truths I shared. Either they are in the Bible -- or they are Vatican man-made Traditions, i.e, not Biblical. So, my Friend, show me where I am wrong -- from Scripture. Show me even ONE of those things written in Scripture."
David's response was, "Bill, What I said was: The 14 things you have listed were lies!!!!! You did not list 14 catholic beliefs. Your (sic) a LIAR....... Your (sic) a LIAR, Your (sic) a LIAR."
When I asked, "Hi David, Then, please tell me which of the 14 are not Roman Catholic doctrine."
David responds without answering my question. He tells me, "You take a a catholic belief and reshape it into something it's not. You stretch our belief and add to it and that makes it a lie."
David, please show me where I have changed, modified, or lied about any Roman Catholic doctrines.
He says, "Infallible bishop? LOL You have NO idea what infallibility of the pope means.... it doesn't mean the pope is without sin."
I never related the pope's supposed "infallibility" to sin. I know that this doctrine teaches that, when the Pope speaks on issues of church teaching and morals -- he cannot make an error. This does not make sense, since Roman Catholics believe that Peter was their first pope -- and Peter made some real boo-boos -- even denying the Lord Himself three times and cursing as he denied Christ. Or the time when Jesus Christ rebuked Peter, saying, "Get thee behind Me, Satan!"
You say your Pope is perfect when he speaks on church issues or morals. I say that ONLY Jesus Christ is perfect in ANY way. NO mortal man is perfect -- in what he does or what he says. We all make mistakes, even those wearing expensive, elaborate robes. Just as Billy Graham or any other man of God is not infallible; the Pope, being a mortal man, is also not infallible -- regardless of what a group of church leaders have declared.
Next, you declare, "Mary DID die, you take our doctrine of assumption of the blessed mother and say "Catholics believe she didn't die" That's not what the doctrine of the assumption is."
From a Roman Catholic web site: ASSUMPTION OF MARY
http://www.americancatholic.or...s/saint.aspx?id=1108
Excerpt 1:
On November 1, 1950, Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary to be a dogma of faith: “We pronounce, declare and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma that the immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory.” The pope proclaimed this dogma only after a broad consultation of bishops, theologians and laity. There were few dissenting voices. What the pope solemnly declared was already a common belief in the Catholic Church.
Bill's Comment: This sure sounds like the Roman Catholic church has declared that Mary was taken, i.e., raptured into heaven. The Bible tells us that Elijah and Enoch were taken up in such a fashion -- but, the only proof we have of Mary being taken up -- is the Roman Catholic doctrines.
Excerpt 2:
Scripture does not give an account of Mary’s Assumption into heaven. Nevertheless, Revelation 12 speaks of a woman who is caught up in the battle between good and evil. Many see this woman as God’s people. Since Mary best embodies the people of both Old and New Testament, her Assumption can be seen as an exemplification of the woman’s victory.
Bill's Comment: Any Bible scholar or theologian (except Roman Catholic) will tell us that the woman with twelve stars in Revelation 12:1-2 is the nation Israel -- and the twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. And, the child she was birthing -- is our Lord Jesus Christ.
Excerpt 3:
Since Mary is closely associated with all the mysteries of Jesus’ life, it is not surprising that the Holy Spirit has led the Church to belief in Mary’s share in his glorification. So close was she to Jesus on earth, she must be with him body and soul in heaven.
Bill's Comment: This Roman Catholic web site tells us, in this statement that Mary was taken into heaven "body and soul." A person who is taken bodily into heaven -- has not died. The only Biblical references to this happening are Elijah and Enoch.
2 King 2:11, "As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."
Genesis 5:24, "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
There is no mention anywhere in the Bible that Mary was taken into heaven bodily -- and there is absolutely NO mention in the Bible that Mary shares in the glorification of Jesus Christ.
Then, you say, "Very sneaky..... I can't get into a normal, healthy dialog with you about scripture saying Mary was full of grace, because I realize now that's not your interest, you have an ulterior motive."
Anything and everything you can show me about Scripture, the Written Word of God, the Bible -- is of great interest to me.
Was Mary full of grace? Yes, for all saints, all Christian believers, are full of the grace of God. Was Mary special? Yes, for she was chosen by God to be the human womb through which His Son would be birthed.
But, no where in the Bible do we find, "Hail Mary, full of grace" or even, "Mary, full of grace."
In John 1:14 we read of Jesus Christ, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
And, in Acts 6:8 we read of Stephen, "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."
But, nowhere in the Bible do we read, "Hail Mary, full of grace." That comes from the Roman Catholic teaching of Mariology and the Rosary.
Finally, you say, "The church talks about living saints, Christians that are doing their best walking with Christ. I was told this in 3rd grade..(long ago). geez, you know NOTHING about Catholics."
Well, it would appear that I know more about the Roman Catholic church than you. For I give you facts from your own Roman Catholic web sites, I give you facts from the Bible -- and what do you offer?
Nothing but inane comments such as, "Very sneaky..... I can't get into a normal, healthy dialog with you" - OR -"you know NOTHING about Catholics" - OR - "Your (sic) a LIAR....... Your (sic) a LIAR, Your (sic) a LIAR."
If we are going to have a dialogue, we both need to offer specific facts, supported facts -- not school yard rants.
Now, back to the discussion of saints. While the Bible tells us that ALL Christian believers are saints -- the Roman Catholic church also teaches about special people being "canonized Saints." We find that nowhere in the Bible.
From a Roman Catholic web site: ALL ABOUT SAINTS
http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php
Exactly how many saints are there? There are over 10,000 named saints and beati from history, the Roman Martyology and Orthodox sources, but no definitive "head count."
Do Catholics pray TO saints? We pray with saints, not to them. Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?
Bill's Comment: When we ask a person to pray for us -- that person is alive. If that person were dead, how would we talk with him/her to request prayer support? Yet, the Roman Catholics tell us that they can pray with dead "saints." And, Luke 16:19-31 tells us that the dead cannot talk with those still alive in their mortal bodies.
How does the Church choose saints? Canonization, the process the Church uses to name a saint, has only been used since the tenth century. For hundreds of years, starting with the first martyrs of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim. Though this was a more democratic way to recognize saints, some saints' stories were distorted by legend and some never existed. Gradually, the bishops and finally the Vatican took over authority for approving saints.
In 1983, Pope John Paul II made sweeping changes in the canonization procedure. The process begins after the death of a Catholic whom people regard as holy. . . Though canonization is infallible and irrevocable, it takes a long time and a lot of effort.
Bill's Comment: This Roman Catholic web site tells us that the Roman Catholic church chooses who will be saints. The Bible tells us that ALL Christian believers are saints. I like the way J. Vernon McGee lays it out: He tell us that believers are "saints" -- and non-believers are "aints." I could not have said it better myself.
The Roman Catholic church sure makes things difficult. In the Bible, to become a saint all one has to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- believe and receive (John 1:12) His "free gift" of salvation, eternal life in Christ. Why does the Roman Catholic church take the sainthood found in the eternal security of Jesus Christ -- and turn it into a special promotion for a select few?
So, David, can you see why we evangelical, conservative Christian believers -- cannot accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic church when they all contradict the Bible?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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