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A right wing republican trying to pass himself off as a God fearing person, when in fact has deep hatred for those who do not believe as he does. The way I was raised, that would make him a hypocrite. He can quote as many scriptures as he likes, but it does not fool me. My God is a God of love, his is a God of hate. I will believe in my God who loves all his children, even those who are not perfect in the eyes of Bill.
It's ironic the people who lambaste Bill are just fine with Muslim religious freedom. Last I checked there are no churches in Saudi Arabia, they practice honor killing of women. One is one awaiting stoning to death for adultery in Iraq. If you are raped it's your fault. Meanwhile Bill is worse for having seemingly harmless fundamental beliefs.
Ron P. I would also defend Bill Gray's freedom to build a church wherever he can otherwise LEGALLY build one despite my disagreement with his stances (which ARE biblical).

Further, I think I speak for virtually all atheists on this point.

It is because I realize that to trample the freedom of Muslims would also trample MY freedom to not worship your invisible friend.

How can people be so dense as to NOT understand this very simple concept?
I agree with most... Bill knows his stuff. I haven't seen hatred in his writings, only lengthy monologues that are sometimes just too much to read. Otherwise, I think the "D" option is correct - He is a tool of God.

Ronnie made a good point too with the tolerance of the muslim religion but not with Bill's opinions. Maybe he's just "too much" to some.

Blessings to all -- be you COC, Catholic, Jewish, whatever. Our precious Lord knows our hearts and that's what counts, not whether you were offended by Bill Gray or anyone else on this forum.

Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me.
quote:
Originally posted by HadEnough:
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
Complete the following statement:


I think there should be a Poll asking if DHS-86 is a

Satan Worshiper
A tool of Satan
Just a Fool

If you dont like what Bill has to post, then stop reading it and stop gripping.


"Gripping" what? A screwdriver? A coffee cup? The steering wheel?

Oh, by the way, a tool of God doesn't keep bashing everyone who doesn't share his exact beliefs. They try to lead them, not berate them. I don't really think Bill is Satan, but I know he is pushing more people away from God than he could ever possibly hope to bring to God.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
I think it was B-50 that noted that the worst sin Bill had was that of Pride.

He will not admit when he's wrong, nor will he apologize to anyone at any time.

Hi Max,

Let me give you a wee challenge. Go to my Profile Page in the Personal section and Search for the word "apologize" in my posts. You will be surprised how many posts you will find which do include an apology.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by buffalo:
I will say this to Bro. Bill, I do not agree with your wholesale criticism of the Catholic Church. If I should find myself not involved with the assemblage of COC, I would involve myself with the Catholic assemblage.

Hi Buffalo,

Actually, my intention is not to criticize the Roman Catholic church; for I have loved ones who are Roman Catholic. However, when a Forum member posts Roman Catholic doctrines which I know come from the Vatican, i.e., men -- and are not from God's Written Word, the Bible -- I have to refute those doctrines.

There are many things which attracted me to the Roman Catholic church when I was younger. I grew up in Sheffield and attended first, the Nazarene church on Hatch Boulevard; then the First Baptist and occasionally the Methodist church in Sheffield.

At that time I was not a Christian and went only because me friends went to these churches. I enjoyed attending. But, I do not recall every hearing an altar call; perhaps I just wasn't listening. And, until I was saved in a Baptist church in 1987; I had never heard of a Bible study. When my wife suggested going to Bible study; I had to ask what she meant.

Yet, all my life, I felt the tugging of the Holy Spirit; I felt a need to attend church -- but, I was too busy with my worldly life to really listen to the Holy Spirit. I needed a church which would allow me to be anonymous, to just go in, follow the rituals -- and then, go back to my world.

From the time I was 18 and introduced to the Roman Catholic church in Denver -- it filled a need inside me. I had left the security of home and mom to enter the Air Force. The Air Force was now my "mom away from home" -- and the Roman Catholic church became part of that. It was huge, it was solid, it told me all the things I had to do and how to do them. Yet, the one thing the Roman Catholic church did not tell me -- was how to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Today, I could never be part of the Roman Catholic church -- for too many of their doctrines and traditions are not Biblical. Yet, I am not saying that people in the Roman Catholic church are not Christian. In that respect, the Roman Catholic church is no different from any of the Protestant denominations and churches -- many who attend are Christian believers; many are not.

We are not saved by the church we attend -- but, only by what is in our hearts. If we truly have Jesus Christ in our hearts; we are saved and WILL spend eternity in the presence of God.

This, to me, is one of the biggest problems with the Roman Catholic church -- they do not have that eternal security. A Roman Catholic cardinal in New York, in a public speech, stated that "not even the Pope knows if he is saved or not." Now, how can the spiritual leader of a billion people -- not even know if he is saved or not? How can he lead others to salvation -- if he is not even sure of his own salvation?

And, our Roman Catholic Friends will fight us tooth and nail -- to deny that anyone can KNOW we have eternal life in Christ. Why? Because their leader says he does not know; so, any Roman Catholic claiming eternal security -- is putting himself/herself above their leader, the Pope. And, they cannot do that.

So, Buffalo, while I am not knocking our Roman Catholic Friends; I would say to you, and to anyone considering moving to the Roman Catholic church, "Consider long and carefully, look deeply into God's Word, Scripture, before deciding to join the Roman Catholic church."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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-- to deny that anyone can KNOW we have eternal life in Christ. Why? Because their leader says he does not know; so, any Roman Catholic claiming eternal security -- is putting himself/herself above their leader, the Pope. And, they cannot do that.


Wrong!
It's because the Word of God tells us so.
I have shown you many scriptures that tell us we can "lose" favor with God. Our salvation is not a one time thing- it is a lifelong process. Many believe it can even extend past death.
And that not everyone who says they believe in God will be saved. Depart from me...I never knew you. Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, you do to me.
You are wrong about this. It is not the teachings of "man" we follow. We follow Jesus- from the Bible to the Word of mouth teachings of the Apostles.

Perhaps it would behoove you to attend a Catholic Church now that YOU DO believe, and you would see that it is very much Christ centered.
Bro. Bill,

Thanks for the advice.

I have no intention of moving anywhere.

I would feel just as comfortable in a Catholic assemblage as I do at a COC assemblage.

I know of nothing the Catholics teach that is not inherently Biblical.

There is certainly much pomp and circumstance that would cause Shakespeare’s Othello appear dim.

“The shrill trump,
The spirit-stirring drum, th'ear-piercing fife,” of the other denominations is no less out of place as a sinner seeks solace for the soul.
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
quote:
Originally posted by HadEnough:
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
Complete the following statement:


I think there should be a Poll asking if DHS-86 is a

Satan Worshiper
A tool of Satan
Just a Fool

If you dont like what Bill has to post, then stop reading it and stop gripping.


"Gripping" what? A screwdriver? A coffee cup? The steering wheel?

Oh, by the way, a tool of God doesn't keep bashing everyone who doesn't share his exact beliefs. They try to lead them, not berate them. I don't really think Bill is Satan, but I know he is pushing more people away from God than he could ever possibly hope to bring to God.


Excuse me Mr. English teacher, gripeing.
You thread is dumb. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill, Thanks for the advice. I have no intention of moving anywhere. I would feel just as comfortable in a Catholic assemblage as I do at a COC assemblage. I know of nothing the Catholics teach that is not inherently Biblical.

Hi Buffalo,

There are many doctrines in the Roman Catholic church which are not Biblical:

1. The infallibility of the Pope and Bishops. Only Jesus Christ is infallible.

2. That Mary is the Mother of God. God has no mother.

3. That Mary is Queen of Heaven. Heaven has no queen. What you will find in heaven will be God, i.e., the Trinity; the angels; and all the saints who have died, including Mary. I like the way J. Vernon McGee said it last night in his Through The Bible broadcast, "There are the "saints" and the "aints." The pretty clearly defines all mankind.

4. The Eucharist -- that the unleavened wafer and juice become the actual human flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. There was even an article I posted a few weeks ago showing a bishop standing before a nun -- and the nun had raw meat in her mouth. They were claiming this was part of the human body of Jesus Christ. And, for the sake of convenience -- knowing this miracle was going to happen -- they just happen to have the cameras ready.

5. Purgatory, a holding cell for all who die. When we die, believers go directly into heaven and non-believers go directly to Hades/Torment.

6. Roman Catholic Traditions have higher authority than the Bible. Any time there is a dispute over doctrine -- their Traditions always trump the Bible.

7. Infant baptism. In the Bible we see only Adult Baptism; not one single instance of Infant Baptism.

8. Church appointed Saints. The Bible tells us that all Christian believers are saints. And, J. Vernon McGee tells us all non-believers are "aints."

9. Mary was born without sin. The Bible tells us that ONLY Jesus Christ was born without sin; the rest of mankind, including Mary, was born with a sin nature.

10. Mary was taken into heaven without dying. You will not find that ANYWHERE in the Bible. Elijah and Enoch, yes! Mary, no!

11. Confessing to a priest. The Bible tells us that the ONLY mediator between God and man is the Man, Jesus Christ.

12. The Rosary -- 80% of their prayers are to Mary and not to God the Father or Jesus Christ. So, Mary trumps God and Jesus Christ.

13. The Roman Catholic church is a "works oriented' church -- believing one must work his way into heaven. Yet, no one can tell us how MUCH works one must do to gain entrance into heaven.

14. And, the most serious one, at least for me -- not even the Pope can say that he believes he is saved and will go to heaven. Even the Pope will have to wait until he dies to know if he earned enough points to get into heaven. That most certainly is not Biblical.

Buffalo, these are some of the major differences. If you could live with these teachings -- then, maybe you could be comfortable in the Roman Catholic church. I could not.

Once again, though -- I am not denying that many Roman Catholics are saved Christians; but, many are not. Of course, this is true of any other church, including the Baptist and COC.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
12. The Rosary -- 80% of their prayers are to Mary and not to God the Father or Jesus Christ. So, Mary trumps God and Jesus Christ.


absolutely untrue. The Rosary is a meditatory prayer of the life, death and resurection of Jesus. For you to say that Mary trumps God is just ridiculous. Did you just make that up? All glory and honor and praise is given to God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
This lie is so far out there that it barely dignifies a response. You don't know what you're talking about in this case.


"9. Mary was born without sin. The Bible tells us that ONLY Jesus Christ was born without sin; the rest of mankind, including Mary, was born with a sin nature."

Hail Mary Full of Grace. FULL OF GRACE. ie without sin.
The Lord is with thee- enough said.


"7. Infant baptism. In the Bible we see only Adult Baptism; not one single instance of Infant Baptism. "
Jesus said "let the children come to me"

"4. The Eucharist -- that the unleavened wafer and juice become the actual human flesh and blood of Jesus Christ"

Exactly as it is written in the Bible. In all of the Gospels. THIS IS MY BODY. When Jesus says something, I believe it. He did not say "this represents my body and blood" He was adamant "THIS IS MY BODY- which will be given up for you!"

." That Mary is the Mother of God. God has no mother"
Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus and the Father are ONE. thus, Mary is the Mother of God. Easy.



"14. And, the most serious one, at least for me -- not even the Pope can say that he believes he is saved and will go to heaven. Even the Pope will have to wait until he dies to know if he earned enough points to get into heaven. That most certainly is not Biblical."

It most certainly is biblical. Not all who say to me Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
The Pope is a sinner, just like all of us. He also needs to rely on the Mercy of Jesus.
And Jank posted several other scriptures on another thread to refute the "once saved" theory.

13. The Roman Catholic church is a "works oriented' church -- believing one must work his way into heaven. Yet, no one can tell us how MUCH works one must do to gain entrance into heaven.

Ah, yes- we have much work to do- Jesus came to us to show us what kind of work to do.
Think of the Beatitudes. Now, as far as "work", the only "work" required is to live Christ's love and mercy for one another. That's all that is required of Catholics.

10. Mary was taken into heaven without dying. You will not find that ANYWHERE in the Bible. Elijah and Enoch, yes! Mary, no!

And the woman appeared, clothed in the sun, etc etc....

6. Roman Catholic Traditions have higher authority than the Bible. Any time there is a dispute over doctrine -- their Traditions always trump the Bible.

Not true. The Church gives their "study guide", if you will, the catechism. Because Apostolic Teaching is a crucial tenet. AND to keep Catholics safe from heretics and false teaching.

Bill, face it. The Catholic church is completely Christ centered. And Biblically sound.
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Bill,

Please quit saying things that are untrue about Catholics.
All 14 things you have listed are either complete untruths!!!! Or they are stretched so far beyond their actual meaning....

You've already been told "mother of God" is a title.... Catholics don't believe Mary gave birth to God. Seriously? How hard is that to figure out?

What is your problem? you don't debate, you just spread misconceptions?

You don't know jack about the catholic faith, please quit lying.

I get it now..... you are chronologically 73 but you are emotionally immature.... that's why you have this incessant need to lie.
You lie about Catholics because it makes you feel better or superior. It's a self fulfilling little trick called leveling.

I always believed growing up that if a protestant questions me about my faith, i don't assume they have any ill will, because maybe they are truly concern for my soul... and if a protestant is concerned for my soul, I respect that.

But that's not how you are, you just dig and dig with at someone with lies to make your self feel more important.

As far as i am concerned; "a tree is known by it's fruit"

What fruit do you bear when you evangelize on this forum Bill?

What is your reputation? does it have anything to do with your denomination? (no) or your attitude? (yes)

I kept seeing people talk about how you were put on "ignore" I wondered why.....
NOW I KNOW WHY!!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by tinabeth:
I agree with most... Bill knows his stuff. I haven't seen hatred in his writings,


You haven't seen any hatred in his writings? You're kidding, right?

Knowing the Bible is one thing, anyone can study & know it....that's from our head.

It's quite another to show love & kindness to our neighbor.....that's from our heart. Smiler
Hi David,

Show me in the Bible where I am wrong about ANY of the 14 truths I shared. Either they are in the Bible -- or they are Vatican man-made Traditions, i.e, not Biblical.

So, my Friend, show me where I am wrong -- from Scripture.

Show me even ONE of those things written in Scripture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi David,

Show me in the Bible where I am wrong about ANY of the 14 truths I shared. Either they are in the Bible -- or they are Vatican man-made Traditions, i.e, not Biblical.

So, my Friend, show me where I am wrong -- from Scripture.

Show me even ONE of those things written in Scripture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



Bill, What I said was: The 14 things you have listed were lies!!!!! You did not list 14 catholic beliefs.

Your a LIAR....... Your a LIAR, Your a LIAR
And he keeps going and going and going...........

Bill,

I asked you before and you never answered.

DO YOU BELIEVE YOUR CATHOLIC FRIEND WILL GO TO HEAVEN?

You must have argued this same 14 points of 'blasphemy' that you have pointed out in the Catholic faith.

So it is just you Bill, all alone, or are you going to have company?
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by tinabeth:
I agree with most... Bill knows his stuff. I haven't seen hatred in his writings,


You haven't seen any hatred in his writings? You're kidding, right?

Knowing the Bible is one thing, anyone can study & know it....that's from our head.

It's quite another to show love & kindness to our neighbor.....that's from our heart. Smiler


semi, you and I are usually on the same page, so to speak. And no, I don't think Bill has the intent of hatred in his writings. I believe that he means well; it just doesn't always come off that way. Yes, he is too much at times -- too many words, too over-bearing, too educated perhaps. I agree with you that the Bible is learned with our head, and expressed with our heart. I don't follow his ideas of COC's or Catholics but in all honesty I don't read them through and through because I don't want to... because that is not how I feel. If he is lambasting those for their religion, then that is wrong. I think he just wants to prove he's right -- it's not really intended to be hatred, IMO. As I said before, with the exception of the Muslim religion, I'm just glad those that have religion have religion. In His love...

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