Skip to main content

I read these forums daily but very rarely do I respond to any posts or create any threads of my own. Until now.

Bill Gray, you're an idiot.

To be honest, the only thing that keeps me coming back to these forums are Bill's mindless, God-fearing, creationist thoughts. They're hilarious, dumbfounding, and enraging all at the same time. It really is great entertainment to read Bill's 3-page retorts about how evolution is wrong, how the Earth is only a few thousand years old, how Richard Dawkins has no clue what he's talking about. It's a great way to get my work day started; Bill makes me laugh and he certainly reminds me how fortunate I am to have an education.

Bill, please humor us all and spend less time babbling creation on these forums and a little more time reading a science book (please make sure the book is not Of Pandas and People). If you want to know why scientists are so sure that evolution is real, then maybe you should research just what makes scientists believe this.

Scientists do not wish to disprove God, they wish to understand the Universe and all that it entails. And sadly for your camp, God has presented zero evidence, whereas evidence for evolution is all around us. As for Darwin's Theory of Evolution, please keep in mind that it has withstood 150 years worth of people trying to disprove it. THAT is why scientists believe in evolution so much. It's based on much more than "Darwin said it's true, so it must be" (unlike your God/Bible).

Also, while you're at it, do us all a favor and research the definition of a scientific theory. It's not just a thought, it's not just a belief, it's not just someone's crazy idea. Until you understand this simple scientific terminology, you're going to continue looking like a mindless bible thumper on these forums when you say things like "Evolution is only a theory. There are other theories to explain where we came from, such as Intelligent Design." Intelligent Design is not a theory, Bill.

In closing, I understand that your response to this post, if any, will be one of the following:

A) You will write a two-line response, a failed attempt at wit & humor, followed by one of your gay "Hmmm...do ya THINK?" cartoons attached at the end.

B) You will write a 3-page retort that begins "In thread (insert link here), my forum friend Dustin said I'm an idiot" followed by a bunch of bible verses and various other nonsense.

Either way, I look forward to your next installment of silliness.


Take care,
Dustin
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I disagree with your stand on Evolution, which is not the process by which, I believe, we got here but only the best that Science can come up with at this point and juncture. The reason Intelligent Design or Creationism is so quickly discounted among scientific circles is there is no belief in God or even a fraction of creedence given to the fact that God could exist so any theory that involves God, as well as those that espouse the creation or Intelligent Design view, are ceremonially dismissed as "idiots" or discounted all together. Readers of the Times Daily forum will make up their own minds regarding Evolution how we got here but hopefully they will do so on the merits of each position. You state that Evolution also withstood 150 years of people trying to disprove it. Creationism withstood thousands and still today hasn't been disproved just replaced as the faith basis by which people choose to believe we got here. Most people are people of faith and accept one theory or another but don't possess the ability, yourselves included, to fully understand or comprehend how we all got here. You believe in Evolution but cannot explain or fully understand the process of how it works. I believe GOD SPOKE or thought Creation into existence but neither can I prove that, nor do I have to, at least not to myself or may other Christians or people of Religious faith.

Personal attacks do not serve, nor every should serve, to enhance or propel a persons chosen argument above another but rather display a lack of resources of the individual that has to stoop to personal attacks and serves also to show the attacked in a more positive light than those who chose to personally attack another. Personal attacks are only a last resort when someone has the inability to maintain a dialog or debate in real time and mostly serve to belittle the person making the attacks and to demonstrate the quality of their character. I would hope that latter is not the case in this instance.

You, and your supporters, are so dogmatic about evolution and boasting about how it has not been disproven but part of that is that any reasonable or credible detractors, to evolution, are again ceremonially dismissed and, as Ben Stein put it and documented it , dismissed and expelled from any debate or position which puts them in a place to debate it. Evolution exist by elimination, by force or omission, of any detracting theories. So when you control a venue as they have and still do then certainly no counter arguments ever enter into the debate for rational consideration. Public Schools and Colleges are also prohibited from teaching creationism or Intelligent Design by virtue of "Separation of Church and State" so there again you have evolution controlling what is presented and it is biased and limited to their own strict views. It has nothing to do with credibility or the strength of the Creation/ID arguments it has to do with the fact that they can't be rationally presented in an unbiased way letting the students make their own determinations. It is a totally stacked playing field with all opposition eliminated from play and any remaining remnant dismissed as not worthy to hear or worthy to be given a chance to present their case. If someone doubts evolution then they are personally attacked rather than their argument considered and dismissed on it's merits. Creation Scientist and I.D. Scientist exist but their arguments aren't heard because Evolution Scientist control the venues, control the jobs, and with "extreme prejudice" attack and remove any potential source of detraction to their accepted theory. No wonder it last as it does.

Now --- Why don't I accept the evolutionary explanation? Simple .. Evolution, if it was true and is true would be VISUALLY PRESENT among us and around us today, all stages of evolution that is. Scientist would not have to venture around seeking "missing links" for there would be no missing link in any species. There would be, walking around among us, half men, half ape creatures. All species would have incremental developing species from one state to the other that could be seen and documented IF Evolution was true and factual. It simply is not!

Circumstances have not changed as today we still have the "base" elements that evolution teaches we came from, we have the "finished" species of what evolution says we evolved to but somehow even though the beginning (source) and ending (destination) species still exist today and the environment (planet Earth, nature, etc....) is still with us we cannot see the incremental species transitions happening. Not even in the Rain Forrest or areas that are relatively untouched by man. Frankly Evolutionist present an empty argument with NO acceptable Proof except to themselves and then totally control the environment and the venues in which the arguments are presented.

Even in this environment, the Times Daily Forum, rather than logically confront the opposing positions and rather than give possibility to the counter arguments, here also, it is seen that opposition is rudely suppressed by attacking those that espouse those positions as "idiots" or uninformed and/or uneducated or lacking in education.

None of you, that support Evolution, are any different than Bill or any other Christian on here in that you have "faith" also. Blind faith in whoever espouses Evolution whether it be Darwin or Dawkins. You, each, don't have the "tools" by which to advance your argument or defend it yet you accept on FAITH that those that do possess the "tools" to teach it or advance the argument of evolution know what they are talking about. You are accepting a theory taught to you in school by instructors who also bought into the theory of Evolution or worse were obligated to ONLY TEACH that theory without any rational or reasonable alternatives taught to contradict it.

Furthermore the rigid denial of God's existence or that God could exist prohibits each of you from accepting a debate on principal as you have to "eliminate" any source of opposition to your own (atheistic) beliefs . You cannot yield your unflinching belief that God doesn't exist long enough to entertain or consider any other competing method of how we got here. To allow detracting arguments which would conflict with your Evolutionary beliefs might place you in a position your pride would never allow you to be in. God forbid that you have to defend your accepted evolutionist beliefs yourself. Whether you post to this forum much or not could be that you simply don't possess enough stamina to remain in a debate or worse have to rely upon others for your principal positions and material. You find it hard to accept that you are just people of Faith also only rather in God your faith is in MAN or a Man whether it be Dawkins or Darwin or some professor in High School or College you have your beliefs, your faith, yet rather than defend your faith on it's own merits you seek to debase and ridicule another forum member and now since I have posted a detracting post I'm sure myself as well.
Last edited by gbrk
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:

None of you, that support Evolution, are any different than Bill or any other Christian on here in that you have "faith" also. Blind faith in whoever espouses Evolution whether it be Darwin or Dawkins. You, each, don't have the "tools" by which to advance your argument or defend it yet you accept on FAITH that those that do possess the "tools" to teach it or advance the argument of evolution know what they are talking about. You are accepting a theory taught to you in school by instructors who also bought into the theory of Evolution or worse were obligated to ONLY TEACH that theory without any rational or reasonable alternatives taught to contradict it.

Furthermore the rigid denial of God's existence or that God could exist prohibits each of you from accepting a debate on principal as you have to "eliminate" any source of opposition to your own (atheistic) beliefs . You cannot yield your unflinching belief that God doesn't exist long enough to entertain or consider any other competing method of how we got here. To allow detracting arguments which would conflict with your Evolutionary beliefs might place you in a position your pride would never allow you to be in. God forbid that you have to defend your accepted evolutionist beliefs yourself. Whether you post to this forum much or not could be that you simply don't possess enough stamina to remain in a debate or worse have to rely upon others for your principal positions and material. You find it hard to accept that you are just people of Faith also only rather in God your faith is in MAN or a Man whether it be Dawkins or Darwin or some professor in High School or College you have your beliefs, your faith, yet rather than defend your faith on it's own merits you seek to debase and ridicule another forum member and now since I have posted a detracting post I'm sure myself as well.


agree
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
Now --- Why don't I accept the evolutionary explanation? Simple .. Evolution, if it was true and is true would be VISUALLY PRESENT among us and around us today, all stages of evolution that is. Scientist would not have to venture around seeking "missing links" for there would be no missing link in any species. There would be, walking around among us, half men, half ape creatures. All species would have incremental developing species from one state to the other that could be seen and documented IF Evolution was true and factual. It simply is not!


You (obviously) do not understand even the simplest, let alone the more complex, clues that point to the evolution of species.

PLEASE do some research on the topic before you open your mouth.
Again ... Can you Evolutionist find some minuscule evidence or material before resulting to attacks rather than putting up material for your defense. Either someone doesn't understand, isn't capable to understand, lacks intelligence to understand that which you and so many others know, without reservation. The implication with that statement is that you, and others of like belief are intelligent and those that disagree ....... aren't.


You made the blanket statements, regarding evolution, therefore you should be able to defend it. You say do some research on the topic. I'm not trying to defend the topic, I'm not trying to understand something that so obviously is false. It doesn't exist, you can't see it, there aren't incremental transitional states in any species let along man so it's yours to prove not mine. tcf531 you refer to "macroevolution" to attempt to find some measure of evidential proof for all of Evolution or specifically with regards to man and the "origin of all the species". According to evolutionary doctrine we all evolved from one singular organism yet you want to point to something that is practically invisible to the naked eye or ordinary person? Look at the BIG picture in defense of your stands. Man, Ape, Dog, Cat, fish, whatever species you choose to pick and find me the living, existing, current, incremental species within a transition from state to state. You might want to pull up an excuse by saying but these things take eons or millions of years to transcend from one to another state. Fine ... that's all the longer to observe the various states but NONE EXIST! IF Evolution exist, IF IT DOES, then it does in all species, all sized creatures and exist on it's own with no "intelligent" help therefore incremental states of evolution from state to state, beginning to end has to be present for the argument and the theory to be true.

DustinSmith, you and the others can't even present the "simplest" much less follow to complex therefore it isn't for understanding, there's nothing to understand for there is NO Evolution present from Species to Species or within species. IF Evolution IS fact, is real, is demonstrable, then where is it? Where are the incremental transitions from ape to man? Alive today, not in fossils for if it's true it's true NOW as THEN.

What's so complex about that?

Go ahead and get your High School or College text books out and open up to the Evolution section as that's the only one they allowed so it should be easy to find for I doubt that any beliefs you have, about Evolution, are innate and of yourselves rather are faith in whoever wrote the article in your books. I'm not criticizing you for that for I do the same thing. I have faith in the author of my book that what is said is the way it happened. My book ... The Bible and it's author (through inspiration) God!

"Can't see the forrest for the trees?"
Last edited by gbrk
most antievolutionists accept microevolution as a fact, since it has been proven over and over again in medicine, but dispute macroevolution as unproven. i just showed you examples of observed speciation, where new, never before existing species evolved and your argument is that evolutionist cant present the simplest example? WHAT????

you say that:
IF Evolution exist, IF IT DOES, then it does in all species, all sized creatures and exist on it's own with no "intelligent" help therefore incremental states of evolution from state to state, beginning to end has to be present for the argument and the theory to be true.

first: evolution has happened in all species. but every incremental example would not still be here in any, much less all species.
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
most antievolutionists accept microevolution as a fact, since it has been proven over and over again in medicine, but dispute macroevolution as unproven. i just showed you examples of observed speciation, where new, never before existing species evolved and your argument is that evolutionist cant present the simplest example? WHAT????

you say that:
IF Evolution exist, IF IT DOES, then it does in all species, all sized creatures and exist on it's own with no "intelligent" help therefore incremental states of evolution from state to state, beginning to end has to be present for the argument and the theory to be true.

first: evolution has happened in all species. but every incremental example would not still be here in any, much less all species.


Evolution whether micro or macro should exist today as before, without intervention of man or science. Those examples are not there. I used man and ape since that one is the closest to home ( man ). I'm not talking about where man creates evolution from one form to another or manipulates a sample to get a desired outcome but naturally occurring and of existing species not "new" never existing before ones.

If Everything came from one common organism, as evolution suggest, then transitional, incremental beings, creatures, species should be very evident and present now as it was then, if it was. Doesn't seem that hard to comprehend or at least for a superior mind.
an excerpt from the above article:



most biologists accept the idea that speciation takes a long time (relative to human life spans). Because of this we would not expect to see many speciation events actually occur. the literature has many more examples where a speciation event has been inferred from evidence than it has examples where the event is seen. This is what we would expect if speciation takes a long time.

Third, the literature contains many instances where a speciation event has been inferred. The number and quality of these cases may be evidence enough to convince most workers that speciation does occur.

Finally, most of the current interest in speciation concerns theoretical issues. Most biologists are convinced that speciation occurs. What they want to know is how it occurs.
quote:
Originally posted by renecillo7:
An Idiot, dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. I may not always agree with Bill, but he is NO idiot!


I couldn't agree more. Bill may be annoying to some, but he is a very intelligent person that doesn't just say "because I said so" -- he takes the time (too much sometimes) to respond thoroughly with every post. You got to give credit where it is due.
i would like to comment on the title of this thread. bill IS NOT an idiot. he IS a man who was raised in a time when learning to read at a 5th grade level was considered literate, when adding and subtracting was all the math you needed. he went far beyond those standards and learned electronics in its early phases and has kept up with the rapid changes over the years. so no he is not an idiot.
he was raised in a time when racism was normal and he is still a racist. does racism make him an idiot? no. misguided,yes. his biggest fault though is believing the bible is the literal word of god, and trying to push his beliefs on everyone.
like you, his ranting was part of what drew me to these forums, his arguments with deepfat and gofish were great entertainment. but, no matter how wrong he is and no matter how misguided he is and no matter how detrimental his teachings are to our childrens future, he has the right to say whatever he wants without being called names. yes, i know he resorts to calling people names but why stoop down to that level.
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
an excerpt from the above article:



most biologists accept the idea that speciation takes a long time (relative to human life spans). Because of this we would not expect to see many speciation events actually occur. the literature has many more examples where a speciation event has been inferred from evidence than it has examples where the event is seen. This is what we would expect if speciation takes a long time.

Third, the literature contains many instances where a speciation event has been inferred. The number and quality of these cases may be evidence enough to convince most workers that speciation does occur.

Finally, most of the current interest in speciation concerns theoretical issues. Most biologists are convinced that speciation occurs. What they want to know is how it occurs.



Thank you for that post, that's more along what I had hoped to hear in reply, rather than veiled comments about some detractor's intelligence or capabilities. I would tough like to add a few comments or references myself,

From Philip Johnson's "Darwin on Trial" (Inter-varsity Press 1993) a phenomenon occurs which dissects the argument for evolution based on the way the arguments are presented. Johnson writes that, in scientific circles, the theory of evolution is considered to be true simply because no acceptable alternative exist. (key there is recognized acceptable alternative …. to recognize creationism or I.D. is not a possibility in an atheist vocabulary). Therefore, the evidence, --- from fossilized remains to the mechanics of genetics ---- is investigated and researched but not for the purpose to see if Evolution could have existed but rather to find out how evolution has occurred since they start from the assumption that evolution cannot be discounted. Johnson states " There is an important difference between going to the empirical evidence to test a doubtful theory against some plausible alternative and going to the evidence to look for confirmation of the only theory that one is willing to tolerate" (page 28)

Evidence though supports, overwhelmingly, the idea of a "special creation" or the emergence of a new species spontaneously, already wholly formed. Genetics, for example, shows that there are biological limits to the amount of change that a species can undergo, and fossil records, to date, reveal/indicate that the fundamental characteristic of species is stasis, or lack of significant change. The fossil records also fails to show, as Darwin hoped they would show, the abundance of transitional life forms that would be required by the evolution theory.

In a book that I have been reading, as a side point H.L. Nigro states that fossils are one source of confirmation of evolution, if true but there are not the infinite or numerous transitional states required by such a theory and I have said IF evolution was a fact and true those same transitional states, infinite practically, would be here with us existing today for there would be or was nothing that would interfere with that process, provided that we have the base form and the translated form ( i.e. monkey to human), which we do but yet the transitional beings don't exist. partially from pg 37 of "Before God's Wrath", H.L. Nigro author copywrite 1982, Thomas Nelson. Additionally (my thoughts only) it also would be very difficult to explain the existence of male and female given the source as being one singular organism but rather there should be just one unisex organism or being.

Look I'm not going to say that evolution isn't a process that is valid in some areas or that things don't evolve as I believe there is evolution. I don't however believe, as Darwin and Dawkins accept, that evolution explains how we and all other creation got here. Evolution belongs with the "Big Bang" as a scientific theory or a theory to be countered by other relevant theories such as Creationism and Intelligent Design and allow the student or hearer to decide for themselves which they prefer to believe in for IT IS A MATTER OF FAITH no matter which you choose to believe and usually Faith based upon your acceptance of another's teaching or writing whether that be from the Bible, God, a High School or College textbook or professor.

The big problem with science and evolution is they conveniently use separation of Church and State to prevent Creationism from being taught and use punitive actions or threats, against a persons job, to silence any teaching or injection of Intelligent Design. An instructor, teacher, or author inserts it or injects it at their own peril. Tyrannical control of the stage, forum of discussion, or venue and elimination of all opposing viewpoints, not allowing them to reach the point of discussion, easily can be found around those teaching of evolution in schools and text books therefore squelched opposition.
Last edited by gbrk
Hi all,

Dustin, thank you for getting a good discussion started. Possibly something will come from it that is constructive.

TCF, I would only question two things you just wrote. First, that I am a racist. That is interesting, considering that I just got off the telephone with my Hispanic daughter from my first marriage -- and I have five of the most beautiful Filipino grandchildren in my current marriage. So, I am not quite sure where you derive the racist accusation.

Yes, I dislike Obama -- not for his color or race; but, for his socialist liberal beliefs which I believe will run America into the ground unless we vote him and his team out in 2010 and 2012.

Yes, I firmly believe that America needs a strong immigration policy -- which is strongly enforced; regardless of the country of origin of the illegal immigrant. I am firmly against amnesty; I am firmly for secure borders -- especially our southern borders.

But, how does any of this equate to racism? It would seem that you just like to toss out words which you have learned in the School of Political Correctness -- only because they sound good to you.

So, call me racist -- if you have any evidence besides what the illegal immigrants tell you to say.

And, call me homophobic because I support the Biblical view of marriage. I guess, if you disagree with the Bible's view -- that would make you a HETEROPHOBE.

But, hey, let's keep having these good discussions.

God bless, have a wondeful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-__Snoopy_Running
Hi TCF,

Looking at your post again, I have a couple of comments. You say of me, "He was raised in a time when racism was normal and he is still a racist."

Yes, when I grew up in Sheffield and the Shoals area, segregation was the norm. However, even then I did not understand it nor believe in it. Growing up in my home, we were NEVER taught prejudice against anyone.

And, my grandfather raised three boys on his farm -- my dad, my uncle by marriage, and a black boy named Carlos. My dad turned out to be a less than desirable man; the man who became my uncle was not much better -- neither ever showing any real respect for my grandfather, who was a Christian believer. On the other hand, the black boy, Carlos, grew into a fine man. And, on Sundays, after church, he would put his family in the wagon and come visit my grandfather to pay his respects. The other two only showed up when they needed something. So, of the three, who did I respect -- only Carlos, the black man.

Growing up in Sheffield in the 1940s-50s, I saw segregation all around me: segregated drinking fountains, segregated schools, segregated bathrooms, segregated movies, waiting rooms, i.e., everything was segregated -- black and white. I saw it then, I did not think it was right; but, at that time, I thought the whole world was that way.

June 1955, I graduated from Sheffield High School and with three friends, went into the Air Force. In Basic Training there were sixty of us in a Training Flight -- mixed black and white from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida.

October 1955, I was stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver -- where I saw for the first time that the whole world was NOT segregated. And, I celebrated to see this. I went through six months of radar/electronics Tech School with the same group of guys. All through school, I had one competitor for the top spot in my class -- a black kid from Chicago named Albert. Albert was the studious type who stayed in and studied; while I was out dancing every night -- so, in the end, he topped me and was number one in our class.

In Denver, I met and married a beautiful Hispanic lady. I say Hispanic because in Denver, most called themselves Spanish; which got me in trouble later when I was coming home from Korea and riding a train from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I sat with two Hispanic ladies and in the conversation (because in Denver it was proper to say Spanish) I asked if they were Spanish. They both rather indignantly told me, "No, we are Mexican!" I felt like saying, "I wish you guys could make up your mind."

In Colorado they say Spanish -- and in California, if I call them Spanish, they are insulted and want to be called Mexican. Actually, today, in all the states, there are so many Hispanics from all all over, Mexico and all of South America -- that, it is safer ground just to say Hispanic. That way, I can't get in trouble. But, back to my point -- in Denver I married a beautiful Spanish/Mexican/Hispanic lady -- and we have three beautiful Hispanic daughters.

Right after I was married in Denver, I immediately got orders to go to Korea. I had a thirty day leave before shipping out. My mom came from Alabama to visit before I left. My wife and I had a neighbor, a black lady named Sarah. When she heard that my mom was coming from Alabama, she told me, "Child, I ain't coming to your house when she is there." I told her, "Sarah, my mom is not like that." When my mom arrived, within five minutes Sarah was there. And, within another five minutes they were drinking coffee and talking like life-long friends. I laughed, for if I closed my eyes -- I could not tell which one was talking. They both had Southern accents. My mom was not prejudiced and she never taught me to be prejudiced -- praise the Lord!

And, on September 2, 2010, I will celebrate 33 glorious years of marriage to a beautiful Filipina. We have two good looking Filipino children, a lovely Filipina daughter-in-law -- and five of the most beautiful Filipino grandchildren you have ever seen.

In 1956-57, I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. There, my best friend was Bob White, a black kid from Chicago. Bob was a fantastic guitarist, formed a Jazz Trio, and they played on our base radio station. Many evenings I spent in the back room of the Enlisted Men's Service Club listening to this Jazz Trio jam. What a wonderful time -- three black musicians -- and one tall, skinny white boy from Alabama. Those are times I cherish.

When it was time for Bob and me to rotate back to the U.S.; we were both assigned to Bergstrom AFB in Austin, Texas. Just before we left Korea, Bob came to me and told me, "Bill, you do know that when we get back to the states; we cannot run around together anymore." I was shocked, I was hurt, and I was surprised that it took a black kid from Chicago to realize that he and I could not be seen as friends back in America, in 1957, when segregation was still rampant. A white boy from Alabama never thought about it -- it took a black kid from Chicago to see the reality of what we would find back in our home country in 1957.

After we got out of the Air Force, I lost track of Bob -- and, just about eight years ago, my wife and I were watching television and saw an infomercial for Chicago Jazz. In the infomercial, they had short bites from Ray Charles, Etta James, and other singers; and then, a group headed, not by a singer -- but, by a guitar player. It was Bob White. For several years, I had no idea how to find Bob. But, about five years ago, I sent an e-mail to MoTown, just fishing, and within half an hour received an e-mail back from Billy Wilson. He told me, "Robert White is a good friend and was one of the original founders of MoTown's in house band, the Funk Brothers. But, he died in 1994."

I was so happy that my good friend, Bob White, had realized his music dream and that he was an integral part of MoTown history.

By the way, two other very good friend that Dory and I enjoyed were Eddy and Barbara Singleton -- both black. Barbara was a singer for MoTown and had been married to Berry Gordy, founder of MoTown. And, she and Eddy were both part of the MoTown organization. Barbara died of cancer in South Africa about five years ago and Eddy died last year. But, we were proud to say that they were our friends.

And, if you are familiar with the Carlos Santana Band, you may remember that my good friend, Leon Patillo, was his lead singer, keyboard player, and song writing collaborator from 1973 - 1982. Then, Leon, who had become a Christian -- went on his own, singing mostly Christian music, had his own program on TBN called "Leon and Friends" for a number of years -- and is now a Christian pastor in Corona, California. Oh, and did I mention, Leon is black.

So, TCF, I am not sure why you are calling me racist. Yes, I am against illegal immigration -- regardless of the color of their skin. But, I fail to see how this makes me racist. It makes me an American who is concerned about our American sovereignty; it makes me an American who is concerned that the laws of our nation be enforced. But, in no way does this make me a racist.

Oh, and by the way -- I totally dislike and disagree with Obama. But, it has only to do with what he does; not the color of his skin.

And, TCF, you say of me, "Yes, i know he resorts to calling people names but why stoop down to that level."

Please show me where I have called anyone a name. I have challenged some people's spiritual fruit. I have questioned if some people are Christian believers -- based solely upon their spiritual fruit. But, please show me where I have done ANY name calling.

Not sure how they do it in your church; but, in my church telling others about the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not denigrating them; it is sharing Good News with them. And, telling folks that we all need to be Christ Followers if we want to spend eternity with Jesus Christ -- is not name calling; it is God sharing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_Donkey_Bear_TALK
Why do people jump from "he doesn't like Obama" to "he is a racist". I don't like Obama. It has nothing to do with the color of his skin. That's like saying "he doesn't like hamburgers" to "he is a vegetarian". just because someone doesn't like hamburgers doesn't mean they are vegetarian they just like other kinds of meat. Just because we dislike Obama's politics doesn't mean we are racist, it just means we haven't drank the kool-aid.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

This could be used by creationists and atheists. So-called "scientists" still haven't found a good, solid missing link between apes and humans. For that matter, they still haven't found a link between Neanderthal and modern humans. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe the Neanderthal were just another race, or had skull abnormalities. I've seen plenty of people with thicker than usual brows and sloping foreheads. They don't have any trouble speaking modern languages. There are too many holes in the whole evolution of humans picture that haven't been filled by science for me to place credibility in that HYPOTHESIS.
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by renecillo7:
An Idiot, dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. I may not always agree with Bill, but he is NO idiot!

Self-defeating and significantly counterproductive is the definition of Bill Gray.

Hi Crusty,

When I see a pastor, an evangelist, an apologist, or just a lay Christian believer sharing the Word of God -- and no one ever disagrees with him/her or defames him/her for what they are sharing -- I WILL have to wonder if they are doing it right.

The only churches or Christians who never have anyone disagree with them -- are the "Feel Good" Churches and Christians. These are the ones who will NOT talk about heaven, hell, and other such uncomfortable issue; for they do not want to make anyone uncomfortable.

A few years ago, I found the web site of a ministry new to me. Since I could not find their Doctrinal Beliefs on the web site, I sent them an e-mail message asking why this extremely important information was not on the web site. Their reply, "We do not post our Doctrinal Beliefs -- because we do not want to offend anyone." My Friend, that is a church which folks should walk far around -- for, I assure you that their attitude is offending one Person -- God.

If a pastor, an evangelist, an apologists, or a lay Christian believer -- is not making some people uncomfortable -- he/she needs to examine his/her own theology. Something is missing!

Yet, we are told in Scripture that many will want to hear ONLY what makes them "feel good" and what agrees with their desires and their current societal norms.

In 2 Timothy 4:1-4 we read, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

But, the apostle Paul teaches us in Romans 1:16-17, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'"

No, Crusty, regardless of how many stones you throw at me, or anyone else sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- we will not water down the Gospel just to make you "feel good" and allow you to sit comfortably in a phony pew.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi TCF,

Looking at your post again, I have a couple of comments. You say of me, "He was raised in a time when racism was normal and he is still a racist."

Yes, when I grew up in Sheffield and the Shoals area, segregation was the norm. However, even then I did not understand it nor believe in it. Growing up in my home, we were NEVER taught prejudice against anyone.

And, my grandfather raised three boys on his farm -- my dad, my uncle by marriage, and a black boy named Carlos. My dad turned out to be a less than desirable man; the man who became my uncle was not much better -- neither ever showing any real respect for my grandfather, who was a Christian believer. On the other hand, the black boy, Carlos, grew into a fine man. And, on Sundays, after church, he would put his family in the wagon and come visit my grandfather to pay his respects. The other two only showed up when they needed something. So, of the three, who did I respect -- only Carlos, the black man.

Growing up in Sheffield in the 1940s-50s, I saw segregation all around me: segregated drinking fountains, segregated schools, segregated bathrooms, segregated movies, waiting rooms, i.e., everything was segregated -- black and white. I saw it then, I did not think it was right; but, at that time, I thought the whole world was that way.

June 1955, I graduated from Sheffield High School and with three friends, went into the Air Force. In Basic Training there were sixty of us in a Training Flight -- mixed black and white from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida.

October 1955, I was stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver -- where I saw for the first time that the whole world was NOT segregated. And, I celebrated to see this. I went through six months of radar/electronics Tech School with the same group of guys. All through school, I had one competitor for the top spot in my class -- a black kid from Chicago named Albert. Albert was the studious type who stayed in and studied; while I was out dancing every night -- so, in the end, he topped me and was number one in our class.

In Denver, I met and married a beautiful Hispanic lady. I say Hispanic because in Denver, most called themselves Spanish; which got me in trouble later when I was coming home from Korea and riding a train from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I sat with two Hispanic ladies and in the conversation (because in Denver it was proper to say Spanish) I asked if they were Spanish. They both rather indignantly told me, "No, we are Mexican!" I felt like saying, "I wish you guys could make up your mind."

In Colorado they say Spanish -- and in California, if I call them Spanish, they are insulted and want to be called Mexican. Actually, today, in all the states, there are so many Hispanics from all all over, Mexico and all of South America -- that, it is safer ground just to say Hispanic. That way, I can't get in trouble. But, back to my point -- in Denver I married a beautiful Spanish/Mexican/Hispanic lady -- and we have three beautiful Hispanic daughters.

Right after I was married in Denver, I immediately got orders to go to Korea. I had a thirty day leave before shipping out. My mom came from Alabama to visit before I left. My wife and I had a neighbor, a black lady named Sarah. When she heard that my mom was coming from Alabama, she told me, "Child, I ain't coming to your house when she is there." I told her, "Sarah, my mom is not like that." When my mom arrived, within five minutes Sarah was there. And, within another five minutes they were drinking coffee and talking like life-long friends. I laughed, for if I closed my eyes -- I could not tell which one was talking. They both had Southern accents. My mom was not prejudiced and she never taught me to be prejudiced -- praise the Lord!

And, on September 2, 2010, I will celebrate 33 glorious years of marriage to a beautiful Filipina. We have two good looking Filipino children, a lovely Filipina daughter-in-law -- and five of the most beautiful Filipino grandchildren you have ever seen.

In 1956-57, I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. There, my best friend was Bob White, a black kid from Chicago. Bob was a fantastic guitarist, formed a Jazz Trio, and they played on our base radio station. Many evenings I spent in the back room of the Enlisted Men's Service Club listening to this Jazz Trio jam. What a wonderful time -- three black musicians -- and one tall, skinny white boy from Alabama. Those are times I cherish.

When it was time for Bob and me to rotate back to the U.S.; we were both assigned to Bergstrom AFB in Austin, Texas. Just before we left Korea, Bob came to me and told me, "Bill, you do know that when we get back to the states; we cannot run around together anymore." I was shocked, I was hurt, and I was surprised that it took a black kid from Chicago to realize that he and I could not be seen as friends back in America, in 1957, when segregation was still rampant. A white boy from Alabama never thought about it -- it took a black kid from Chicago to see the reality of what we would find back in our home country in 1957.

After we got out of the Air Force, I lost track of Bob -- and, just about eight years ago, my wife and I were watching television and saw an infomercial for Chicago Jazz. In the infomercial, they had short bites from Ray Charles, Etta James, and other singers; and then, a group headed, not by a singer -- but, by a guitar player. It was Bob White. For several years, I had no idea how to find Bob. But, about five years ago, I sent an e-mail to MoTown, just fishing, and within half an hour received an e-mail back from Billy Wilson. He told me, "Robert White is a good friend and was one of the original founders of MoTown's in house band, the Funk Brothers. But, he died in 1994."

I was so happy that my good friend, Bob White, had realized his music dream and that he was an integral part of MoTown history.

By the way, two other very good friend that Dory and I enjoyed were Eddy and Barbara Singleton -- both black. Barbara was a singer for MoTown and had been married to Berry Gordy, founder of MoTown. And, she and Eddy were both part of the MoTown organization. Barbara died of cancer in South Africa about five years ago and Eddy died last year. But, we were proud to say that they were our friends.

And, if you are familiar with the Carlos Santana Band, you may remember that my good friend, Leon Patillo, was his lead singer, keyboard player, and song writing collaborator from 1973 - 1982. Then, Leon, who had become a Christian -- went on his own, singing mostly Christian music, had his own program on TBN called "Leon and Friends" for a number of years -- and is now a Christian pastor in Corona, California. Oh, and did I mention, Leon is black.

So, TCF, I am not sure why you are calling me racist. Yes, I am against illegal immigration -- regardless of the color of their skin. But, I fail to see how this makes me racist. It makes me an American who is concerned about our American sovereignty; it makes me an American who is concerned that the laws of our nation be enforced. But, in no way does this make me a racist.

Oh, and by the way -- I totally dislike and disagree with Obama. But, it has only to do with what he does; not the color of his skin.

And, TCF, you say of me, "Yes, i know he resorts to calling people names but why stoop down to that level."

Please show me where I have called anyone a name. I have challenged some people's spiritual fruit. I have questioned if some people are Christian believers -- based solely upon their spiritual fruit. But, please show me where I have done ANY name calling.

Not sure how they do it in your church; but, in my church telling others about the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not denigrating them; it is sharing Good News with them. And, telling folks that we all need to be Christ Followers if we want to spend eternity with Jesus Christ -- is not name calling; it is God sharing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



hi bill, i apologize if i am wrong. eventhough you have never come right out and said anything racist, many of your posts over the years have had heavy overtones of racism. (by the way, i also have a hispanic grand daughter)
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
hi bill, i apologize if i am wrong. even though you have never come right out and said anything racist, many of your posts over the years have had heavy overtones of racism. (by the way, i also have a hispanic grand daughter)

Hi TCF,

Please show me examples of where my writings have had an overtone of racism.

It is easy to make accusations. However, your statements ring hollow if you cannot support your accusations.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
Billy's prose is sadly lacking in so many levels: chief of them being ignorant of any conflicting views save those that he can find on the internet. He has no use for academic writing of any provenance, save pseudo-footnoted where one "Creation Institution" provides safe passage directly into "Answers in Genesis." One supposes for good coverage, he manages to find a few things by the odd(er) looking man from Australia, all with their questionable PhDs and strange little soi-disant dissertations.

A scholar studies it all, the good, the bad, the ugly and the overwhelmingly boring. But that takes work and the goodletubes are sooo convenient!
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Billy's prose is sadly lacking in so many levels: chief of them being ignorant of any conflicting views save those that he can find on the internet. He has no use for academic writing of any provenance, save pseudo-footnoted where one "Creation Institution" provides safe passage directly into "Answers in Genesis." One supposes for good coverage, he manages to find a few things by the odd(er) looking man from Australia, all with their questionable PhDs and strange little soi-disant dissertations.

A scholar studies it all, the good, the bad, the ugly and the overwhelmingly boring. But that takes work and the goodletubes are sooo convenient!

BUT, NEAL, NOT EVERYONE CAN BE A LIBRARIAN LIKE YOU!
MAKE THAT A "FAR LEFT LIBERAL LIBRARIAN!"

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-__Snoopy_Running
Bill, I am a scholar and an academic librarian. Hard for you to understand, I am sure, but one must be the first before the credentials for the second come. I research research for my own work and taught research methodology for several years. I's done gone and got fancy book learnin' and wrote about such fancy doin's.

Do you lean towards say the Melbourne School vs. tried and true von Ranke?
Dustin, I have disagreed with Mr. Bill Gray often enough, but I do not consider him to be an idiot. He might be a little wordy at times, and his views on evolution are different from mine, but what the hell? He's got a right too, y'know.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that it's okay to disagree in this or any other forum; but do it in a respectful and kindly manner.


Just sayin', dude:
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Bill, I am a scholar and an academic librarian. Hard for you to understand, I am sure, but one must be the first before the credentials for the second come. I research research for my own work and taught research methodology for several years. I's done gone and got fancy book learnin' and wrote about such fancy doin's.

Do you lean towards say the Melbourne School vs. tried and true von Ranke?

OKAY, NEAL, YOU GO AHEAD AND DRIVE ALL THOSE DUMB ILLITERATES OFF THE FORUM!

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Filbert_Demons-of-Stupidity
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi TCF,

Looking at your post again, I have a couple of comments. You say of me, "He was raised in a time when racism was normal and he is still a racist."

Yes, when I grew up in Sheffield and the Shoals area, segregation was the norm. However, even then I did not understand it nor believe in it. Growing up in my home, we were NEVER taught prejudice against anyone.

And, my grandfather raised three boys on his farm -- my dad, my uncle by marriage, and a black boy named Carlos. My dad turned out to be a less than desirable man; the man who became my uncle was not much better -- neither ever showing any real respect for my grandfather, who was a Christian believer. On the other hand, the black boy, Carlos, grew into a fine man. And, on Sundays, after church, he would put his family in the wagon and come visit my grandfather to pay his respects. The other two only showed up when they needed something. So, of the three, who did I respect -- only Carlos, the black man.

Growing up in Sheffield in the 1940s-50s, I saw segregation all around me: segregated drinking fountains, segregated schools, segregated bathrooms, segregated movies, waiting rooms, i.e., everything was segregated -- black and white. I saw it then, I did not think it was right; but, at that time, I thought the whole world was that way.

June 1955, I graduated from Sheffield High School and with three friends, went into the Air Force. In Basic Training there were sixty of us in a Training Flight -- mixed black and white from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida.

October 1955, I was stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver -- where I saw for the first time that the whole world was NOT segregated. And, I celebrated to see this. I went through six months of radar/electronics Tech School with the same group of guys. All through school, I had one competitor for the top spot in my class -- a black kid from Chicago named Albert. Albert was the studious type who stayed in and studied; while I was out dancing every night -- so, in the end, he topped me and was number one in our class.

In Denver, I met and married a beautiful Hispanic lady. I say Hispanic because in Denver, most called themselves Spanish; which got me in trouble later when I was coming home from Korea and riding a train from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I sat with two Hispanic ladies and in the conversation (because in Denver it was proper to say Spanish) I asked if they were Spanish. They both rather indignantly told me, "No, we are Mexican!" I felt like saying, "I wish you guys could make up your mind."

In Colorado they say Spanish -- and in California, if I call them Spanish, they are insulted and want to be called Mexican. Actually, today, in all the states, there are so many Hispanics from all all over, Mexico and all of South America -- that, it is safer ground just to say Hispanic. That way, I can't get in trouble. But, back to my point -- in Denver I married a beautiful Spanish/Mexican/Hispanic lady -- and we have three beautiful Hispanic daughters.

Right after I was married in Denver, I immediately got orders to go to Korea. I had a thirty day leave before shipping out. My mom came from Alabama to visit before I left. My wife and I had a neighbor, a black lady named Sarah. When she heard that my mom was coming from Alabama, she told me, "Child, I ain't coming to your house when she is there." I told her, "Sarah, my mom is not like that." When my mom arrived, within five minutes Sarah was there. And, within another five minutes they were drinking coffee and talking like life-long friends. I laughed, for if I closed my eyes -- I could not tell which one was talking. They both had Southern accents. My mom was not prejudiced and she never taught me to be prejudiced -- praise the Lord!

And, on September 2, 2010, I will celebrate 33 glorious years of marriage to a beautiful Filipina. We have two good looking Filipino children, a lovely Filipina daughter-in-law -- and five of the most beautiful Filipino grandchildren you have ever seen.

In 1956-57, I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. There, my best friend was Bob White, a black kid from Chicago. Bob was a fantastic guitarist, formed a Jazz Trio, and they played on our base radio station. Many evenings I spent in the back room of the Enlisted Men's Service Club listening to this Jazz Trio jam. What a wonderful time -- three black musicians -- and one tall, skinny white boy from Alabama. Those are times I cherish.

When it was time for Bob and me to rotate back to the U.S.; we were both assigned to Bergstrom AFB in Austin, Texas. Just before we left Korea, Bob came to me and told me, "Bill, you do know that when we get back to the states; we cannot run around together anymore." I was shocked, I was hurt, and I was surprised that it took a black kid from Chicago to realize that he and I could not be seen as friends back in America, in 1957, when segregation was still rampant. A white boy from Alabama never thought about it -- it took a black kid from Chicago to see the reality of what we would find back in our home country in 1957.

After we got out of the Air Force, I lost track of Bob -- and, just about eight years ago, my wife and I were watching television and saw an infomercial for Chicago Jazz. In the infomercial, they had short bites from Ray Charles, Etta James, and other singers; and then, a group headed, not by a singer -- but, by a guitar player. It was Bob White. For several years, I had no idea how to find Bob. But, about five years ago, I sent an e-mail to MoTown, just fishing, and within half an hour received an e-mail back from Billy Wilson. He told me, "Robert White is a good friend and was one of the original founders of MoTown's in house band, the Funk Brothers. But, he died in 1994."

I was so happy that my good friend, Bob White, had realized his music dream and that he was an integral part of MoTown history.

By the way, two other very good friend that Dory and I enjoyed were Eddy and Barbara Singleton -- both black. Barbara was a singer for MoTown and had been married to Berry Gordy, founder of MoTown. And, she and Eddy were both part of the MoTown organization. Barbara died of cancer in South Africa about five years ago and Eddy died last year. But, we were proud to say that they were our friends.

And, if you are familiar with the Carlos Santana Band, you may remember that my good friend, Leon Patillo, was his lead singer, keyboard player, and song writing collaborator from 1973 - 1982. Then, Leon, who had become a Christian -- went on his own, singing mostly Christian music, had his own program on TBN called "Leon and Friends" for a number of years -- and is now a Christian pastor in Corona, California. Oh, and did I mention, Leon is black.

So, TCF, I am not sure why you are calling me racist. Yes, I am against illegal immigration -- regardless of the color of their skin. But, I fail to see how this makes me racist. It makes me an American who is concerned about our American sovereignty; it makes me an American who is concerned that the laws of our nation be enforced. But, in no way does this make me a racist.

Oh, and by the way -- I totally dislike and disagree with Obama. But, it has only to do with what he does; not the color of his skin.


Bill, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post. I wasn't alive during that time and love to hear stories about what it was like. Thank you for sharing that. I'm always astounded at hearing what interesting lives those I 'think' I know have led. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi TCF,
Looking at your post again, I have a couple of comments. You say of me, "He was raised in a time when racism was normal and he is still a racist."

Yes, when I grew up in Sheffield and the Shoals area, segregation was the norm. However, even then I did not understand it nor believe in it. Growing up in my home, we were NEVER taught prejudice against anyone.

And, my grandfather raised three boys on his farm -- my dad, my uncle by marriage, and a black boy named Carlos. My dad turned out to be a less than desirable man; the man who became my uncle was not much better -- neither ever showing any real respect for my grandfather, who was a Christian believer. On the other hand, the black boy, Carlos, grew into a fine man. And, on Sundays, after church, he would put his family in the wagon and come visit my grandfather to pay his respects. The other two only showed up when they needed something. So, of the three, who did I respect -- only Carlos, the black man.

Growing up in Sheffield in the 1940s-50s, I saw segregation all around me: segregated drinking fountains, segregated schools, segregated bathrooms, segregated movies, waiting rooms, i.e., everything was segregated -- black and white. I saw it then, I did not think it was right; but, at that time, I thought the whole world was that way.

June 1955, I graduated from Sheffield High School and with three friends, went into the Air Force. In Basic Training there were sixty of us in a Training Flight -- mixed black and white from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida.

October 1955, I was stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver -- where I saw for the first time that the whole world was NOT segregated. And, I celebrated to see this. I went through six months of radar/electronics Tech School with the same group of guys. All through school, I had one competitor for the top spot in my class -- a black kid from Chicago named Albert. Albert was the studious type who stayed in and studied; while I was out dancing every night -- so, in the end, he topped me and was number one in our class.

In Denver, I met and married a beautiful Hispanic lady. I say Hispanic because in Denver, most called themselves Spanish; which got me in trouble later when I was coming home from Korea and riding a train from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I sat with two Hispanic ladies and in the conversation (because in Denver it was proper to say Spanish) I asked if they were Spanish. They both rather indignantly told me, "No, we are Mexican!" I felt like saying, "I wish you guys could make up your mind."

In Colorado they say Spanish -- and in California, if I call them Spanish, they are insulted and want to be called Mexican. Actually, today, in all the states, there are so many Hispanics from all all over, Mexico and all of South America -- that, it is safer ground just to say Hispanic. That way, I can't get in trouble. But, back to my point -- in Denver I married a beautiful Spanish/Mexican/Hispanic lady -- and we have three beautiful Hispanic daughters.

Right after I was married in Denver, I immediately got orders to go to Korea. I had a thirty day leave before shipping out. My mom came from Alabama to visit before I left. My wife and I had a neighbor, a black lady named Sarah. When she heard that my mom was coming from Alabama, she told me, "Child, I ain't coming to your house when she is there." I told her, "Sarah, my mom is not like that." When my mom arrived, within five minutes Sarah was there. And, within another five minutes they were drinking coffee and talking like life-long friends. I laughed, for if I closed my eyes -- I could not tell which one was talking. They both had Southern accents. My mom was not prejudiced and she never taught me to be prejudiced -- praise the Lord!

And, on September 2, 2010, I will celebrate 33 glorious years of marriage to a beautiful Filipina. We have two good looking Filipino children, a lovely Filipina daughter-in-law -- and five of the most beautiful Filipino grandchildren you have ever seen.

In 1956-57, I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. There, my best friend was Bob White, a black kid from Chicago. Bob was a fantastic guitarist, formed a Jazz Trio, and they played on our base radio station. Many evenings I spent in the back room of the Enlisted Men's Service Club listening to this Jazz Trio jam. What a wonderful time -- three black musicians -- and one tall, skinny white boy from Alabama. Those are times I cherish.

When it was time for Bob and me to rotate back to the U.S.; we were both assigned to Bergstrom AFB in Austin, Texas. Just before we left Korea, Bob came to me and told me, "Bill, you do know that when we get back to the states; we cannot run around together anymore." I was shocked, I was hurt, and I was surprised that it took a black kid from Chicago to realize that he and I could not be seen as friends back in America, in 1957, when segregation was still rampant. A white boy from Alabama never thought about it -- it took a black kid from Chicago to see the reality of what we would find back in our home country in 1957.

After we got out of the Air Force, I lost track of Bob -- and, just about eight years ago, my wife and I were watching television and saw an infomercial for Chicago Jazz. In the infomercial, they had short bites from Ray Charles, Etta James, and other singers; and then, a group headed, not by a singer -- but, by a guitar player. It was Bob White. For several years, I had no idea how to find Bob. But, about five years ago, I sent an e-mail to MoTown, just fishing, and within half an hour received an e-mail back from Billy Wilson. He told me, "Robert White is a good friend and was one of the original founders of MoTown's in house band, the Funk Brothers. But, he died in 1994."

I was so happy that my good friend, Bob White, had realized his music dream and that he was an integral part of MoTown history.

By the way, two other very good friend that Dory and I enjoyed were Eddy and Barbara Singleton -- both black. Barbara was a singer for MoTown and had been married to Berry Gordy, founder of MoTown. And, she and Eddy were both part of the MoTown organization. Barbara died of cancer in South Africa about five years ago and Eddy died last year. But, we were proud to say that they were our friends.

And, if you are familiar with the Carlos Santana Band, you may remember that my good friend, Leon Patillo, was his lead singer, keyboard player, and song writing collaborator from 1973 - 1982. Then, Leon, who had become a Christian -- went on his own, singing mostly Christian music, had his own program on TBN called "Leon and Friends" for a number of years -- and is now a Christian pastor in Corona, California. Oh, and did I mention, Leon is black.

So, TCF, I am not sure why you are calling me racist. Yes, I am against illegal immigration -- regardless of the color of their skin. But, I fail to see how this makes me racist. It makes me an American who is concerned about our American sovereignty; it makes me an American who is concerned that the laws of our nation be enforced. But, in no way does this make me a racist.

Oh, and by the way -- I totally dislike and disagree with Obama. But, it has only to do with what he does; not the color of his skin.

Bill, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post. I wasn't alive during that time and love to hear stories about what it was like. Thank you for sharing that. I'm always astounded at hearing what interesting lives those I 'think' I know have led. Smiler

Hi Joy,

Thank you! Over the past three years, you and I have bumped heads a couple of times -- but, I have always respected you as a Christian sister.

Sharing our life stories is often the best way to defeat negative accusations of racism. So many people equate being Southern, and especially being from Alabama -- with being racist. And, quite honestly, I have seen a lot of racism in Northern states and even in California.

In the 1960s, a friend from India was with her step-dad, an executive for TWA, and her mom in Southern California. They were on a Sunday afternoon drive and stopped at a cafe to eat. The owner told them, ["We don't serve blacks in here." Only he did not say blacks. Cynthia's step-dad, who was Caucasian told him, "My family is from India." He was told, "I don't care; they are black to me."

Sounds very similar to the cafe scene in the movie "Giant" with Rock Hudson who had a Mexican granddaughter -- and the big, gruff cafe owner refused to serve them because their Mexican daughter-in-law and granddaughter were with them.

I have had friends from all races and nationalities throughout my life. And, one thing that has always aggravated me to the point of wanting to slug someone -- is when I meet a person and, when they find that I am from Alabama -- right away they start right away slamming black people -- just because they think this will please me. Wrong! It makes me want to hit you over the head.

In 1957, when I was stationed in Austin, Texas, I was walking to the main gate after work to take a bus home. A Sheffield High classmate recognized me and stopped to give me a ride. As we were driving toward town, he started with, "These damm Mexicans. They are worse than the damm N******." I was shocked, for neither of us had ever seen a Mexican, or any other Hispanic, in our lives until we joined the Air Force. It was obvious that he was only parroting what he had heard others say -- and, that, to me is what causes most prejudice -- people parroting others' beliefs.

I was so tempted to invite him home for dinner -- and let him see my beautiful Mexican wife. But, having him in our home would have been an insult to my family.

When I grew up in Sheffield -- there were no Hispanics, no Asians. We had a few Jewish families and we had some Italian families -- but, everyone was so assimilated that the only way we knew anyone was Italian, or from any other European ancestry, was by their names. Yet, here was my classmate coming down on Mexicans as though he had known them all his life.

So, Joy, I am happy to see my post repeated over and over again. I want people to know that we are not racist; but, instead, we are Americans who are concerned about what is happening in our country now.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
Well Bill,
I have got to say I agree with the majority of your theology. You are a little toooooo wordy for me so I do skim through most of your post but I get the general idea of it. As for your
"tone" towards others I don't always agree with it but that is my opinion. I do think you can work on that but that is just my opinion once again. AND I think others can work on their tone towards you but you but I am not holding my breath :O As for your cartoons...keep 'em coming because I find them quite entertaining :0) But are you and idiot? Nah....and one day "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Romans 4:11)and I won't be thinking that I am an idiot or you either because I will have already worked that out with my Jesus how about you? :0)

As you say...

"God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,"
quote:
Originally posted by rolltidequeen:
Well Bill, I have got to say I agree with the majority of your theology. You are a little toooooo wordy for me so I do skim through most of your post but I get the general idea of it. As for your "tone" towards others I don't always agree with it but that is my opinion. I do think you can work on that but that is just my opinion once again. AND I think others can work on their tone towards you but you but I am not holding my breath :O As for your cartoons...keep 'em coming because I find them quite entertaining :0) But are you and idiot? Nah....and one day "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Romans 4:11)and I won't be thinking that I am an idiot or you either because I will have already worked that out with my Jesus how about you? :0)

As you say... "God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,"

Hi Queen,

Thank you for your theological support -- and I do have to agree with you on several of your points.

I agree that many of my posts are rather long -- but, I have not found a way to respond and cover all the points without it stretching out a bit. Several years ago, a Roman Catholic Friend kept sending me really long e-mails. Literally, his were 4 and 5 pages long with tons of questions. So, I would pick what seemed to be the more important questions and comments -- and respond to those. He complained that I was not answering all his questions. I told him that if I answered ALL his questions -- my response would not be an e-mail -- it could be published as a book.

Well, my pastor at that time saw his question about not answering all his questions and actually chastised me for it. I took them both off my mail list -- for my e-mails were already painfully long. And, if I had followed their advise -- it would have been totally unbearable.

So, in my e-mails today and in my Forum posts -- I try to hit a happy medium. Unfortunately, even that approach still gets very long a lot of the time. You do it right -- browse over the post until you see something of interest.

You tell me, "As for your 'tone' towards others I don't always agree with it but that is my opinion."

Once again, this is a subjective thing. All I can say is, "You should see the ones I write -- and then delete without posting."

Regarding the cartoons -- I'm just a Snoopy kind of guy. I have a Friend who has been out of work for several years -- and I have been helping write his resumes, letters, and e-mail for job applications. When I am responding to him in an e-mail, often I will put Snoopy Running in it. One time, I had helped him write a letter and resume -- and, assuming he would look the whole thing over before sending it -- I put Snoopy at the end.

Well, he forwarded the resume, letter, and e-mail cover sheet without reading the whole thing. Later, I asked if he had seen Snoopy -- and he almost had a heart attack. He had forwarded it with Snoopy Running intact in the e-mail. I comforted him with, "Well, maybe the guy has a sense of humor and you might get the job because of Snoopy." No comfort. And, he never heard from the guy again. Now, when I mention Snoopy -- he gets nervous; but, I would not do that to him twice.

Am I an idiot? If loving Jesus Christ, worshiping God, and being thankful that I am a child of God is being an idiot -- then, yes, I am an idiot. I am an Idiot For God. Praise the Lord!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-__Snoopy_Running
quote:
Originally posted by renecillo7:
An Idiot, dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. I may not always agree with Bill, but he is NO idiot!


Interesting little forum y'all have here. Rene, anyone who says the world is 6000 years old, and was poofed into existence at that time is self-defeating and significantly counterproductive.

Anyone who says that the world came into existence suddenly 6000 years after Gobelki Tepe was built, and at about the time the Sumerians learned to brew beer has something wrong with his head.

Anyone who disregards every branch of science and history in favor of a religious book must know, in his heart of hearts, that there is something not right about his religion.

It's true, you know, stupid is as stupid does. Insisting that the only worthwhile human endeavor is theology is stupid. Calling science and other academic knowledge "religion" or "faith" is just doing stupidity.

Creationism is not only stupid, but it's dishonest. Anyone intelligent enough to use a computer knows better.

Why do people pretend to be stupid? I've never understood that.
quote:
It won't last much longer, though. Religious people are a dying breed.



I donno about that. Religion has been with us since the Dawn of intelligence. It will always be with us. We seem to have an innate capability and need of seeing patterns (design) in the universe. No one, not even atheists, can deny there is a pattern.

I see the pattern as evidence for my God (Yahweh). You see it as evidence for yours (nature). As far as I'm concerned, we are on the same boat, theologically.

I appreciated the TRUTH of what science tells me and am able to embrace the theology and guidance that religion gives me.

Unfortunately, some idiots insist on forcing the two together (science and religion) with predictable and disastrous results: Either theor religion or theor reason falls prey to stupidity.

Science and reason will defeat myth and fable. Every time. Those who embrace blind faith (and stupidity like Creationism) and deny science are dooming their science and especially their religion.

It is sad to watch.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×