Blood of Christ

quote:

John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

John 16:7, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."

Romans 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Does Bill remind anyone else of Katharine Hepburn's character in Rooster Cogburn?

quote:

Tacitus and Suetonius only mentioned "Christus" aka "the anointed". There were many who claimed that title at the time. The Dead Sea Scrolls mention their "teacher" and accuse him of anointment, but he is clearly not jesus.

Or maybe he is, but the stories of him in the Dead Sea Scrolls are wildly different from the Gospels. It's all fiction, after all.

mara Bar-Serapion wrote of a "jewish king".

Link

Jesus was only acknowledged "King of the Jews" on the cross, according to myth. Hardly the same thing.

At the very least, there is much room for error, you must admit.

Tacitus mentions Nero blaming a new religious group for the great fire of Rome. He wrote "Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,"

That's a pretty specific description. How many claiming to be "Christus" do you think Pilate killed?

As for King of the Jews, remember that this was a time of Roman occupation. There was no recognized Jewish king because the Jews were subject to Roman rule. When Romans and non-Jews referred to their king, their are speaking specifically of one person.

Michael Grant was not known as a Christian. He was known as a noted and well respected historian who specialized in studying the ancient Roman Empire and wrote quite a few books on the subject. He stated;

"This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

It's the general consensus among the historian community that Jesus was in fact a real person who was executed by Roman authority. Immediately thereafter, Christianity began to spread rapidly despite harsh penalties and persecution. There is plenty of evidence to support that. The issue of whether or not He was who He claimed to be is a matter of faith and a completely different subject.

Besides, We've both dug up more evidence that proves Jesus did exist as a real person than Zeitgeist offered. So to believe the claims made by Zeitgeist would be to believe in something without evidence. To believe that Jesus never existed would be to reject historical evidence and the educated opinions of historians that say otherwise. So if someone was to really follow the evidence where it led, how could they logically conclude that Jesus did not exist?

Good convo, sorry for the Gray length post. I'll try and keep it shorter next time.

quote:

Josephus? I liked his dad's music better than his.

I think I'm going to make that my new signature. lol

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Atheists might not be your enemies. But, they are certainly the enemies of Jesus Christ. When they deny Him, deny God, and deny His Word -- how can they be anything but the enemies of God.

They, atheists, work hard, evangelize their hearts out, to pull folks away from God -- and work hard in their evangelical fervor to prevent folks from knowing about God. Now, do you truly believe that this pleases God? Do you think that someone siding with the atheists against God pleases Him?

Okay, I was going to simply say to give me chapter and verse on that, but instead searched 29 translations of the New Testament via crosswalk.com --> Link .

Persons or entities referred to as an "enemy of God":
Satan (Matt 13:39)
Worldly Christians (James 4:1-10) - look at the verses to get a much more specific description.

Persons or entities referred to as an "enemy of Christ":
Satan (1 John 4:1-3, 1 John 2:18)
False Teachers (2 John 1:7-9)

In 29 translations, the only reference I found that comes close to referring to unbelievers as "enemies of Christ" is found in 1 John 2, but there is a catch. These are unbelievers that were in the fellowship of believers, left the fellowship & are attempting to teach a way contrary to what Christ taught, thus false teachers.

In short, I can find no reference in 29 translations of the Bible where unbelievers, even the ones who vehemently reject Jesus is their Savior, are referred to as enemies of God or enemies of Christ.

Joy you fool! Do you want Bill to damm you to hell too? Recant before it's too late!

I ain't skeered.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Readaholic,

I had said of the Christian believer, [color:blue][i]"However, when a person becomes a Christian; first, he/she repents, i.e., turns from their sinful lifestyle and turns to follow Jesus Christ. Then, he/she asks Jesus Christ to come into his heart and be his personal Lord and Savior. When this happens, that person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

These people that Paul found in Ephesus were disciples of John the Baptist -- but, not yet believers in Jesus Christ. When Paul explained the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them, they became believers, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your response to my post. I can see that we disagree on when a person receives the Holy Spirit.

Let's look at those verses in Acts 19 from the Amplified version. "And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed on Jesus as the Christ?" They tell him they have not.

The Wey translation puts it "when you first believed". The Ber translation says "on your becoming believers" and Rieu says "at your conversion".

But whether they are believers or disciples, they did not receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the Word and accepting it but when Paul laid hands on them. Acts 19:5-6, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied."

Let's look at Acts 8:12-17, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

So these believers did not receive the Holy Ghost as soon as they repented and believed the gospel.

How about the apostle Paul. Was he converted on the road to Damascus? If not, when? Ananias never shared the gospel with him but told him, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9:17)

Jesus tells the disciples in Luke 24:47 & 49, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.....And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until you be endued with power from on high." That leads us to the book of Acts which is the record of the birth of the church. The epistles are letters written to saints, from churches established in the book of Acts. So for understanding of salvation, we have to go back to Jerusalem and go forward from there.

The Gospels - birth, ministry, death and resurrection.
Acts - the birth of the church, salvation
Epistles - letters of encouragement to all saved believers.
Revelation - future events

These scriptures show that the infilling of the Holy Ghost is not immediately upon believing on the Lord. But the good news is that the promise is unto us, and to our children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. God hasn't left us comfortless but will come to us, dwell in us and quicken us with His Spirit on that great awakening day!!

God bless you,

Readaholic

quote:

Originally posted by readaholic:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Readaholic,

I had said of the Christian believer, [color:blue][i]"However, when a person becomes a Christian; first, he/she repents, i.e., turns from their sinful lifestyle and turns to follow Jesus Christ. Then, he/she asks Jesus Christ to come into his heart and be his personal Lord and Savior. When this happens, that person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

These people that Paul found in Ephesus were disciples of John the Baptist -- but, not yet believers in Jesus Christ. When Paul explained the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them, they became believers, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your response to my post. I can see that we disagree on when a person receives the Holy Spirit.

Let's look at those verses in Acts 19 from the Amplified version. "And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed on Jesus as the Christ?" They tell him they have not.

The Wey translation puts it "when you first believed". The Ber translation says "on your becoming believers" and Rieu says "at your conversion".

But whether they are believers or disciples, they did not receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the Word and accepting it but when Paul laid hands on them. Acts 19:5-6, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied."

Let's look at Acts 8:12-17, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

So these believers did not receive the Holy Ghost as soon as they repented and believed the gospel.

How about the apostle Paul. Was he converted on the road to Damascus? If not, when? Ananias never shared the gospel with him but told him, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9:17)

Jesus tells the disciples in Luke 24:47 & 49, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.....And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until you be endued with power from on high." That leads us to the book of Acts which is the record of the birth of the church. The epistles are letters written to saints, from churches established in the book of Acts. So for understanding of salvation, we have to go back to Jerusalem and go forward from there.

The Gospels - birth, ministry, death and resurrection.
Acts - the birth of the church, salvation
Epistles - letters of encouragement to all saved believers.
Revelation - future events

These scriptures show that the infilling of the Holy Ghost is not immediately upon believing on the Lord. But the good news is that the promise is unto us, and to our children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. God hasn't left us comfortless but will come to us, dwell in us and quicken us with His Spirit on that great awakening day!!

God bless you,

Readaholic

Hi Read,

That was a good response. So, tell me, when do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells a believer? And what is the difference between indwelling of the Holy Spirit and filling of the Holy Spirit?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Read,

That was a good response. So, tell me, when do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells a believer? And what is the difference between indwelling of the Holy Spirit and filling of the Holy Spirit?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Good Morning Bill,

There is no difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and filling of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture shows believers "being filled", "receiving", having the Spirit "poured out" on them and even "fell on" them. No where does it differentiate between indwelling and filling.

The only examples of people receiving the Holy Ghost are in the book of Acts. In each instance the sign that they had received the Spirit was that they spoke in tongues.

Peter told the multitude that gathered in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which we now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

So scripture teaches that when you receive the Holy Spirit, you will speak in tongues. When that outward manifestation is visible, you have the "indwelling" of the Spirit.

God bless,

Read

quote:

I ain't skeered.

Don't be. Firedancer and myself are already down there and we've got beer. It's the dam-ned BBQ, we just need someone to bring the wings and ribs.

Seriously, that was an excellent post. So here's my question. If false teachers are considered enemies of Christ and Bill is misusing scripture for his own agenda, does that make him a false teacher and therefore enemy of Christ?

No, I don't believe he is. However, he does subscribe to a doctrine that tends to forget the forgiveness and acceptance they felt when they were first saved. That's why they don't extend that to others and feel the need to judge and condemn.

That's why so many people reject Christianity, they were rejected by so called Christians first.

Thanks, Nash. I'm good for the ribs!

Now, Bill, I wasn't trying to be mean on that, just explaining why many Christians who come to the forums do not see eye to eye with you. I know it likely won't change your mind.

So, who's got the wings? I love me some hot wings. There's a place down the road from my sister's house in Huntsville where if you get them to go, you'll never make it all the way back to the house without eating one...mmmm...

So why didn't Jesus say

"Eat this beef rib with a nice mustard/vinegar BBQ sauce... don't forget to take a roll, too."

And "Drink this, it's a lovely 6 year old Merlot, in remembrance of me"?

Heck, I'd go for that.


DF

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_: Now, Bill, I wasn't trying to be mean on that, just explaining why many Christians who come to the forums do not see eye to eye with you. I know it likely won't change your mind.

Hi Joy,

Just what is it you are trying to change. I believe in the Bible; I believe it to be the full revelation for man, given to us by God; I believe the Bible should be interpreted literally in all cases where a literal interpretation fits. When reading a Scripture passage, first apply the literal interpretation -- if the shoe fits wear it. If not, which in some cases is true, then, look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

How do you interpret the Bible?

Just a couple of passages for you to consider:

John 7:1, "After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."

Now, I don't know about you -- but, if Jesus believes that these people are seeking to KILL HIM; I would suggest they are His enemies. So, obviously Jesus considered these Jews, non-believers, to be His enemies.

John 15:18-19, "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."

Joy, if you know that a group of people hates you -- do you consider them your friends or your enemies? Jesus obviously consider the world, those who were not believers, as folks who hated him -- and will hate we Christians because we belong to Him. Who is the world? It is the atheists, the non-believers, the scoffers -- and those who would side with the world against Christians.

Throughout the Old Testament, people of God had enemies; people who wanted to kill them. In the New Testament, Jesus tells us that He had enemies who wanted to kill Him -- and He told us that we, as Christ Followers, will have the same enemy -- the world.

A really good Bible web site that I highly recommend is BlueLetterBible.Org. You will find many translations and many Bible study resources.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,

Do you spend your days preaching to the pigeons on Main Street?


DF

I think Bill just compared Jesus to Hitler (with the hating of the Jews & such).
what tha....?....?

Fire,

It seems, unfortunately, that Mr. Bill's hatred knows no bounds.

He's truly pitiful.


DF

Bill, what you just said certainly proves true on this forum most of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by readaholic:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Read,

That was a good response. So, tell me, when do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells a believer? And what is the difference between indwelling of the Holy Spirit and filling of the Holy Spirit?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Good Morning Bill,

There is no difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and filling of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture shows believers "being filled", "receiving", having the Spirit "poured out" on them and even "fell on" them. No where does it differentiate between indwelling and filling.

The only examples of people receiving the Holy Ghost are in the book of Acts. In each instance the sign that they had received the Spirit was that they spoke in tongues.

Peter told the multitude that gathered in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which we now see and hear." (Acts
2:33)

So scripture teaches that when you receive the Holy Spirit, you will speak in tongues. When that outward manifestation is visible, you have the "indwelling" of the Spirit.

God bless,

Read

Hi Read,

I understand what you are saying; but, tomorrow I will offer you a different slant on this. Right now, I am too tired. I spent the day digging a two foot deep post hole (without a post hole digger) to add a support 4x4 post to my daughter's fence. The winds that have whipped up all our fires in Southern California blew her fence down -- so, I have to fix it. But, at least it wasn't the fires at her home and I thank God for that. The fires are about fifteen miles to the west of us and moving westward. It is so sad. We have a number of friends in those areas -- and do not yet know how they fared.

One quick funny incident to tell you. Today, my wife and I drove to Home Depot to buy the 4x4 post and cement to fix the fence. When we got the post, it was too long to fit into my wife's Avalon. So, the only solution was for me to walk home and carry the post on my shoulder. It was about a mile and the looks I got were funny. I don't know if you ever heard of Arthur Blessitt, who in 1969-70 walked across America carrying a large wooden cross. After that journey, he walked with the cross across Ireland, England, in Europe, Spain -- and then the full length of Africa -- all the way carrying the cross. He had a wonderful witness all the way. I have read the book he wrote about his journeys -- and had the opportunity to see him on television.

Anyway, today, when I was walking, carrying the 8 fool long 4x4 on my shoulder -- I started laughing. I could just imagine folks wondering, "Is this some kind of crazy Christian stunt again?" or "Is this another Jesus Freak?"

Well, in a sense it was -- because I am a Jesus Lover -- and, doing a good deed for my daughter was in a way, a Jesus thing.

So, yes, to Deep and all who will find some way to twist this -- I am a crazy Christian; if it were the 1960s, I would probably be a Jesus Freak; my whole life now is dedicated to sharing His Word and telling lost souls like Deep, et al, that Jesus loves them and wants them to accept His free gift of salvation. Hallelujah -- another Jesus Freak!

Read, I have not answered your last post yet. I want to do that when I am fresh and not so tired. Responding to one of Deep's posts or doing a light natured one like this is easy. But, your post is sincere -- and I want to give it my best possible response. I pray you understand.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Uhhh . . . You . . . er . . . ?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_: Now, Bill, I wasn't trying to be mean on that, just explaining why many Christians who come to the forums do not see eye to eye with you. I know it likely won't change your mind.

Hi Joy,

Just what is it you are trying to change. I believe in the Bible; I believe it to be the full revelation for man, given to us by God; I believe the Bible should be interpreted literally in all cases where a literal interpretation fits. When reading a Scripture passage, first apply the literal interpretation -- if the shoe fits wear it. If not, which in some cases is true, then, look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

How do you interpret the Bible?

Just a couple of passages for you to consider:

John 7:1, "After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."

Now, I don't know about you -- but, if Jesus believes that these people are seeking to KILL HIM; I would suggest they are His enemies. So, obviously Jesus considered these Jews, non-believers, to be His enemies.

John 15:18-19, "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."

Joy, if you know that a group of people hates you -- do you consider them your friends or your enemies? Jesus obviously consider the world, those who were not believers, as folks who hated him -- and will hate we Christians because we belong to Him. Who is the world? It is the atheists, the non-believers, the scoffers -- and those who would side with the world against Christians.

Throughout the Old Testament, people of God had enemies; people who wanted to kill them. In the New Testament, Jesus tells us that He had enemies who wanted to kill Him -- and He told us that we, as Christ Followers, will have the same enemy -- the world.

A really good Bible web site that I highly recommend is BlueLetterBible.Org. You will find many translations and many Bible study resources.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

See there is the problem. I don't consider them anything before considering myself. I don't put them under a microscope and pronounce judgment until first putting myself under a microscope and guess who comes up a few bushels short of worthy to pronounce judgment on anybody? Me and unless you are God, you.

I don't consider myself above them or more than them as I am taught to in the Bible. "Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought". I see my sin and my shortcomings as an indicator that I am not God.

You have provided no scripture that says "Unbelievers are God's enemy" or "Christ's enemy". What you've done is decide for yourself that this is acceptable without scripture to back it up. Sorry, that's strong, but it's the truth.

The Bible says to LOVE OTHERS. You don't get to pick and choose. IF the love of Christ abides in you by the power of the Holy Spirit and you are unable to love, ask & He will love through you.

Jesus may have known others hated him, but He did not hate others. You think you are above Jesus? That you get the right to call them his enemies when he did not? Your attitude toward unbelievers and believers too for that matter, either enemies or those you must teach in your far superior manner, is what kills your witness. Again, I know that's strong, but it's the truth.

I love you, Bill, and I know you mean well, but you know how much this attitude bothers me. I've told you before. Many Christians have tried to tell you, but you won't see it.



EDIT: Whoops! Somehow part of my reply ended up in Bill's quote. Anyhoo, I had already said basically the same thing, so just removed it.

Joy, you put that so kindly. I would have just called him self-righteous. I think people like Bill feel they are somehow superior to others who haven't been afforded the same opportunities as they have. Christ was a compassionate, loving, gentle person - like you, Joy.

Thank you Eye-gor, but I'm not so sure Bill will share your assessment. I came on pretty strong.

I really hope to exemplify the characteristics of Christ, but it wouldn't be very honest of me if I let that stand. I fall short in many areas. Mercy is one of my spiritual gifts. I try to remind myself that if someone else is not strong in that area, that doesn't make them a bad person.

I think we all do that sometimes. When other people in our lives fall short in the areas where we excel, we get frustrated with them. Because that's our strength, we can foresee the outcome & want them to see it.

Man, we're all about a mess, aren't we? If it weren't for a sense of humor, we might have all killed each other off by now.

I am new but I have been reading Bill Gray for a couple of months and I think he makes some very good points and is kind-hearted ,and humorous at times

quote:

Originally posted by gail.marks123:
I am new but I have been reading Bill Gray for a couple of months and I think he makes some very good points and is kind-hearted ,and humorous at times

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Read,

I understand what you are saying; but, tomorrow I will offer you a different slant on this. Right now, I am too tired. I spent the day digging a two foot deep post hole (without a post hole digger) to add a support 4x4 post to my daughter's fence. The winds that have whipped up all our fires in Southern California blew her fence down -- so, I have to fix it. But, at least it wasn't the fires at her home and I thank God for that. The fires are about fifteen miles to the west of us and moving westward. It is so sad. We have a number of friends in those areas -- and do not yet know how they fared.

One quick funny incident to tell you. Today, my wife and I drove to Home Depot to buy the 4x4 post and cement to fix the fence. When we got the post, it was too long to fit into my wife's Avalon. So, the only solution was for me to walk home and carry the post on my shoulder. It was about a mile and the looks I got were funny. I don't know if you ever heard of Arthur Blessitt, who in 1969-70 walked across America carrying a large wooden cross. After that journey, he walked with the cross across Ireland, England, in Europe, Spain -- and then the full length of Africa -- all the way carrying the cross. He had a wonderful witness all the way. I have read the book he wrote about his journeys -- and had the opportunity to see him on television.

Anyway, today, when I was walking, carrying the 8 fool long 4x4 on my shoulder -- I started laughing. I could just imagine folks wondering, "Is this some kind of crazy Christian stunt again?" or "Is this another Jesus Freak?"

Well, in a sense it was -- because I am a Jesus Lover -- and, doing a good deed for my daughter was in a way, a Jesus thing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Good Afternoon Bill,

Sounds like you earned your rest yesterday. As all the folks in this area know, we had rain off and on all day yesterday so all my plans for outdoor work were squelched. But no problem, I did what any good readaholic would do - settled on the couch with a good book.

Thank God it was only wind damage at your daughter's home and not fire. Glad to hear that you are safe from the fires too. Our daughter and son-in-law were in California a good part of this year and were at times close to the fires that were burning. Y'all sure have had a lot of them this year.

I have heard of Arthur Blessitt. I have not read his book though. I can imagine what folks thought seeing you walking with that 8 foot 4X4 on your shoulder. Guess that teaches us all not to make snap judgements by appearances. But then again, aren't folks in California used to strange sights? Oops, just made a snap judgement, didn't I?

Take care and God bless,

Read

quote:

Originally posted by Skeptik:

quote:

look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Uhhh . . . You . . . er . . . ?

Everything has just become so much clearer!!!!! LOL!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
See there is the problem. I don't consider them anything before considering myself. I don't put them under a microscope and pronounce judgment until first putting myself under a microscope and guess who comes up a few bushels short of worthy to pronounce judgment on anybody? Me and unless you are God, you.

I don't consider myself above them or more than them as I am taught to in the Bible. "Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought". I see my sin and my shortcomings as an indicator that I am not God.

You have provided no scripture that says "Unbelievers are God's enemy" or "Christ's enemy". What you've done is decide for yourself that this is acceptable without scripture to back it up. Sorry, that's strong, but it's the truth.

The Bible says to LOVE OTHERS. You don't get to pick and choose. IF the love of Christ abides in you by the power of the Holy Spirit and you are unable to love, ask & He will love through you.

Jesus may have known others hated him, but He did not hate others. You think you are above Jesus? That you get the right to call them his enemies when he did not? Your attitude toward unbelievers and believers too for that matter, either enemies or those you must teach in your far superior manner, is what kills your witness. Again, I know that's strong, but it's the truth.

I love you, Bill, and I know you mean well, but you know how much this attitude bothers me. I've told you before. Many Christians have tried to tell you, but you won't see it.

My Sister,
I would disagree with you here. The Bible teaches that all of us, while unbelievers, are by nature "objects of wrath" and are enemies of God and are under His just condemnation. Romans 5:10 says, "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son..." It speaks of unbelievers in Colossians 1:21 as being "alienated from God" and enemies in their minds of God. John 3:20 says that "everyone who does evil hates the light." The fact is that we all, before God's great mercy and grace saves us, are God-haters. Those are strong words, but over and over again it talks about the fact that we are "dead in our transgressions" and that we can only "gratify the desires of our sinful nature" before God saves us. It even says in Romans that "everything that does not come from faith is sin." We're in a pretty bad state, as you well know. But obviously, God loves us and is rich in mercy and grace, and He calls us to Himself and not only justifies us through His Son, but adopts us as sons as well. We have the same access to the Father as Jesus Himself has. That is too much for me to wrap my mind around sometimes. When I think of how undeserving I was/am, and how much He has done for me, I am overwhelmed. Just saving me from Hell is more than I deserve, but look what all else He has given me as one of His children.

But the fact remains, if we choose not to receive Christ, there is nothing left but wrath and condemnation. John 3:18 states this plainly. While we are to love everyone and speak the truth in love, the Bible clearly teaches that ALL unbelievers, not just atheists, are the enemies of God, and if they go to their deaths that way, they will receive their just punishment and condemnation. God's wrath will be poured out on them for eternity. That's pretty strong for those who are not God's enemies. So while it's true that we are to love others, and be kind and gentle and peaceable, it is simply sugarcoating it to say that unbelievers are not God's enemies.

Hi Joy,

In the earlier post, I said, "Just what is it you are trying to change. I believe in the Bible; I believe it to be the full revelation for man, given to us by God; I believe the Bible should be interpreted literally in all cases where a literal interpretation fits. When reading a Scripture passage, first apply the literal interpretation -- if the shoe fits wear it. If not, which in some cases is true, then, look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

How do you interpret the Bible?"

In your post, you told me how wrong I am in my sharing of the Gospel. Maybe, if you will answer this question -- we will know where we both stand.

Do you believe the Bible is the sole and final authority for the Chrisian life?

Do you believe the Bible should be interpreted literally, as I describe above, or not?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Mommyofthree...

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. I must have missed that one in the way I searched, form of the word & such.

I looked at Romans 5:10 & the verse in Colossians you mentioned in context. Personally, I'm not getting a license to refer to people as enemies of God & then expect them or anyone else to hear anything else you have to say. It's like slapping someone & then telling them that you love them & God loves them. It no longer means anything and your audience has already left the building. You may not have know this is the type of action I was addressing?

In Romans 5:10, people are enemies (or "opposing God in the mind, used of men as at enmity with God by their sin", which is what the word Echthros means, the word NIV translated to English as enemies), but are reconciled through Christ.

Colossians 1:21 further explains how we are "enemies" - "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.", which basically states the full definition of what was translated into English as "enemies".

So, our sin puts us in direct opposition to a perfect God, but God has provided a path to reconciliation through Christ. That is not sugarcoating it. That is speaking the truth in love. It's also more accurate, but that's another subject.

Some Christians see themselves as the sin police, making sure they point out the speck in another person's eye all the while ignoring the gargantuan 2x4 in their own. Not saying that's what Bill's doing, but you will not win people to Jesus by calling them names.

I do not think the intent in directly referring to another person as an enemy of God is love. I'm not altogether sure what the intent might be since I'm certain it will not be received as love.

A discussion of Bible truths is distinctly different from telling someone they are an enemy of God. God does know the intent of the heart, however, and will have much to say to those who speak the truth in pride. Again, I'm not saying this is Bill's intent.

I wonder how many have turned away from God by the words of prideful men/women. We forget that "he has committed to us the message of reconciliation", not the message of condemnation.

Luke 6:37 - "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

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quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Joy,

In the earlier post, I said, "Just what is it you are trying to change. I believe in the Bible; I believe it to be the full revelation for man, given to us by God; I believe the Bible should be interpreted literally in all cases where a literal interpretation fits. When reading a Scripture passage, first apply the literal interpretation -- if the shoe fits wear it. If not, which in some cases is true, then, look for the metaphorical or allegorical meaning. That is what we mean by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

How do you interpret the Bible?"

In your post, you told me how wrong I am in my sharing of the Gospel. Maybe, if you will answer this question -- we will know where we both stand.

Do you believe the Bible is the sole and final authority for the Christian life?

Do you believe the Bible should be interpreted literally, as I describe above, or not?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I am shocked you don't know the answer to that by now. Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

Almost always extremely literal, probably more so than the average Christian. God's Word is precious, very very precious to me.

EDIT: AHH, I hate typos! Do y'all see what time it is? WELL past my bedtime, that what time. Kato (my cat) says this conversation better have eternal significance because it's well past his bedtime as well.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Mommyofthree...

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. I must have missed that one in the way I searched, form of the word & such.

I looked at Romans 5:10 & the verse in Colossians you mentioned in context. Personally, I'm not getting a license to refer to people as enemies of God & then expect them or anyone else to hear anything else you have to say. It's like slapping someone & then telling them that you love them & God loves them. It no longer means anything and your audience has already left the building. You may not have know this is the type of action I was addressing?

In Romans 5:10, people are enemies (or "opposing God in the mind, used of men as at enmity with God by their sin", which is what the word Echthros means, the word NIV translated to English as enemies), but are reconciled through Christ.

Colossians 1:21 further explains how we are "enemies" - "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.", which basically states the full definition of what was translated into English as "enemies".

So, our sin puts us in direct opposition to a perfect God, but God has provided a path to reconciliation through Christ. That is not sugarcoating it. That is speaking the truth in love. It's also more accurate, but that's another subject.

Some Christians see themselves as the sin police, making sure they point out the speck in another person's eye all the while ignoring the gargantuan 2x4 in their own. Not saying that's what Bill's doing, but you will not win people to Jesus by calling them names.

I do not think the intent in directly referring to another person as an enemy of God is love. I'm not altogether sure what the intent might be since I'm certain it will not be received as love.

A discussion of Bible truths is distinctly different from telling someone they are an enemy of God. God does know the intent of the heart, however, and will have much to say to those who speak the truth in pride. Again, I'm not saying this is Bill's intent.

I wonder how many have turned away from God by the words of prideful men/women. We forget that "he has committed to us the message of reconciliation", not the message of condemnation.

Luke 6:37 - "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

========================================================

Joy,
Please hear my heart, I am not trying to be argumentative, condescending, or prideful here. This is such a deep subject, and it is so hard to discuss it on a forum like this, especially with the written word!
I would never intentionally try to beat someone down or wag a finger in their face in judgment, because I know all to well what I was before God saved me, and the issues I still struggle with. However, one thing that brought me to Christ was the deep realization of what I was in His eyes. Yes, I knew that sin put me in direct opposition to God, but the realization of what that meant absolutely slew me. It meant that I put myself in God's place, that I neither gave Him nor desired to have Him as the sole authority of my life. I lived my life denying His rightful authority over me specifically, and over all of His creation, and I didn't delight in Him and His glory. I set myself up against Him, and in His place. If possible, I would have taken Him off of His throne and put myself there. There was no fear of God before my eyes. For all practical purposes, I was His enemy. It was much deeper than me just not being perfect like God, or my sin separating me from Him.
So I do believe that when sharing with someone, and again, it all depends on the Spirit in which it's given, telling someone that they are God's enemy can bring deep conviction of sin and repentance. It did for me. When I saw myself for who I truly was, and when I still see myself for who I am apart from Christ, I have no choice but to run to Him and cling to Him and His bloody Cross. Without Him, I am sunk! So I suppose what I am trying to say is that even if the word enemy is not used, it is our responsibility in sharing the message of reconciliation to tell people what God's Word says they are before Him, and sometimes yes, that is offensive. But if the Spirit is working, it will bring godly sorrow and "repentance unto salvation."
John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minnesota has an article that briefly touches on this at this here : What Me? Hostile to God?
There are also many other excellent articles there as well at Desiring God

Mommyofthree, I hope you know none of what I said was directed at you. I should have made that clear. We're fine & dandy.

I agree with everything you said but would highlight in your sentence "So I do believe that when sharing with someone, and again, it all depends on the Spirit in which it's given, telling someone that they are God's enemy can bring deep conviction of sin and repentance." the words "depends on the Spirit in which it's given". I understand you are likely not saying you came to Christ opposite a finger in your face. That would by far be the exception to the rule. To me, the only way to come to someone humbly is to start with humbling yourself, admitting your own mistakes, and then share something that is a difficult subject, not once but every time God lays it on your heart to share it.

If God opens the door for a Christian to share Christ with another person, I also think it's important to share with accuracy or just provide scripture and let God be God.

I say this because the only other spiritual gift I have that God blessed me with (other than mercy) is what I believe is called Knowledge, which means I find the Bible incredibly easy to understand. I thought everybody felt that way until we went through a church-wide Spiritual Gifts study. So, because of that, I probably am more argumentative when talking about scripture & need to be careful not to cross over to abrasive. Pointing the finger back at me here, but there's nothing edifying (purpose of spiritual gifts) about abrasive...haha.

Love you, sister.

EDIT: I probably should add that those are the only two gifts I know for sure He's given me. I noticed that He does seem to do a change up on me in specific circumstances, like in preparation of or during a mission trip or to do specific tasks.

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