Break the cycle by addressing integrity issues.

quote:

Originally posted by CD:
This is not to malign anyone, but to put the truth out there. A local pastor has been asked by elders to step down. I cannot speak for each, but the 3 I know best are honest, humble, and men with a heart to serve. They are not being allowed to state the issues they think the congregation should know. They have been reduced to handouts that may or may not get to each person. I appeal to each person to at least look at the concerns to see if they are legitimate. Truth has no reason to hide. If the Pastor is afraid to have them seen then why? Using a church credit card for his own personal use for a cruise that was not in the budget demands a second look at integrity. A pastor who preaches tithing, but gives less than 5% to the body he leads is very disconcerting. Don't be mislead by personalities or relationships, but ask the questions and see if the real truth is hiding.

You start out by saying you don't want to malign anyone, but that is exactly what you are doing. The pastor announced in church yesterday that he was asked to resign and that he was given two choices, resign by last Friday or leave it up to a churchwide vote. He chose the latter. The elders will be allowed to read the charges during next Sunday's service and the pastor will be allowed a rebuttal. The pastor did not make any other comments during yesterday's service, he is going to let it happen at the appropriate time.

The tithe issue you speak of is misleading. His total salary includes his health insurance payments along with a few other things that you would not normally tithe on. How many people can actually say they tithe on the portion of health insurance their company pays for? Also, the pastor pays out of his pocket the power bill for the Global Missions Awareness house that he does not live in. This equates to about $175/month that he is not reimbursed for. Also, his wife works at the church and recieves no compensation whatsoever for her work.

The cruise you speak of was a Christian Conference held on a boat. Anything personal he bought using the church credit card was paid for by the pastor, not the church. He has records of paybacks.

Instead of coming on a public forum to get information and spread rumors, why don't you go directly to the pastor and ask him personally. I did and he was more than happy to tell me or show me everything I asked for. He did it with great patience and candor. That was the first time I've really had any kind of conversation with him, so it's not like we are good friends, but I needed answers and he was happy to oblige. You should try being more open with people you make accusations at.

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:
I believe every single charge against him, and everyone needs to know them. He needs to go, Faith needs a new pastor.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

No, everyone does not need to know. Only those who go to church there do. With all due respect, it would be better to bring this before your church. We have no power to help the situation at a church where we are not members. We do not know the truth and have no reason to believe anything you or anyone else has to say about this situation. Absolutely no offense intended, but we cannot help you and you are harming your church by doing this.

Do whatever you want...not your boss or anything, but that's my humble opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
No, everyone does not need to know. Only those who go to church there do. With all due respect, it would be better to bring this before your church. We have no power to help the situation at a church where we are not members. We do not know the truth and have no reason to believe anything you or anyone else has to say about this situation. Absolutely no offense intended, but we cannot help you and you are harming your church by doing this.

Do whatever you want...not your boss or anything, but that's my humble opinion.

I absolutely agree with you Joy. The OP of this thread does not have the best interest of his/her church in mind.

I think that it is very sad that you would come to a public forum and talk about this. I agree with Joy... I am a member of this church and yesterday when we left my oldest step-son asked me why the church members are trying to "impeach" (his words not mine) the pastor... he couldn't understand... he asks why a church would behave that way... We can't answer him and it hurts us...

Mr. Hooberbloob, Now that you have talked to BD you should ask to sit with all 5 of his accusers and tell them what you found out. Ask them to their faces if BD's explaination is truthful or have they misrepresented the truth. You still have only one side unless you do this. However, you may have decided to believe him no matter what the grievances are. I trust these 5 men...I don't know BD even tho I've been in attendance the entire time he's been pastor.

quote:

Originally posted by CD:
A pastor who preaches tithing, but gives less than 5% to the body he leads is very disconcerting.

Hi CD,

I guess I have one overriding question: "How do you know how much he, or anyone in the church, gives in tithing?"

No one, in the church or otherwise, should know how much ANYONE tithes -- except the financial officer and the financial team of the church. And, they are bound to NOT share this information with anyone -- especially on a public forum.

My senior pastor, whom I greatly respect -- will not allow the financial team of the church to even tell him how much anyone tithes. He does not want to know -- for his human nature could cause him to allow this to affect his decisions. And, he wants to treat everyone in the church with the same Christian love and respect.

So, how do you, or anyone else, know how much this pastor tithes?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

And why do I need to be aware of the internal affairs of a church I don't attend? Is this an attempt to feed someone's need for gossip? Doesn't sound very Christian to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ME:
Mr. Hooberbloob, Now that you have talked to BD you should ask to sit with all 5 of his accusers and tell them what you found out. Ask them to their faces if BD's explaination is truthful or have they misrepresented the truth. You still have only one side unless you do this. However, you may have decided to believe him no matter what the grievances are. I trust these 5 men...I don't know BD even tho I've been in attendance the entire time he's been pastor.

Unlike you or right, I've talked to everyone involved. I would have never started a topic in a public forum involving our pastor or elders concerning church business. You owe everyone at our church an apology.

quote:

The tithe issue you speak of is misleading. His total salary includes his health insurance payments along with a few other things that you would not normally tithe on. How many people can actually say they tithe on the portion of health insurance their company pays for? Also, the pastor pays out of his pocket the power bill for the Global Missions Awareness house that he does not live in. This equates to about $175/month that he is not reimbursed for. Also, his wife works at the church and recieves no compensation whatsoever for her work.

1)What Bill told you was (again) wrong. He does that. I checked and these tithing figures are correct and do not include his health ins. 2)I asked about the Global Missions House and the elder could not comment because they have no idea about this. BD controls all this and uses it for whatever he wants. If he wants credit for this on his tithing record he should have made that clear on the record. 3)Also, this 'Pastor wife' thing...while she is a lovely lady, this whole 'pastor' thing BD has attached to these women has never set well with me or many in the congregation. At the rate his is giving his friends this title we'll have more pastors than regular folks soon. And since he has preached a number of times on showing these 'titles' respect, it would have been nice if this well established congregation had been told we were going from having A pastor to having multiples. 4)'Pastor (assoc.)' and 'Pastor (youth)' have made it very clear that they are not at this church for the people but to be a back-up support for BD. At least one of them was brought on the ministry team without approval or consideration of the elders. They felt the church could not afford this additional payroll burden but BD did it anyway. Why should my tithes pay for this (very generous) salary when he isn't even an associate pastor to the people?

I could go on and on. You cannot get respect if you don't know how to show respect and BD hasn't shown it. And let's not over spiritualize this thing. BD negotiated terms of employment just like many of us have in the 'real' world. This is all very sad but don't be hard on CD for starting this post. It was started weeks ago by someone on BD's side, blasting these elders and congregation unjustly. Pray for us, please

Uh...huh. Business as usual, I see.

Too little too late. Next guy will probably have a different set of 'integrity issues' or some other reason to polarize a congregation. Goes with the territory.

Raine- it's not judging when these are FACTS brought to the attention of the congregation

Bill Gray- it IS our business on how much he tithes if he is going to spend 5 sermons recently on telling us how much WE should be giving

Mr. Hooberbloob-I understand you have spoken to BD. He lied in front his entire congregation on sun morning so I bet he is lying to your face as well. you think??

If BD would be humble and more than willing to work with a counselor on these issues with the elders I don't think there would be a problem. BUT he is NOT WILLING. (and I will not make a judgement as to why not) When you hold a position such as this your accountability is at a higher level. The most sad part is for these elders who have been such servants to the people of this church for so long. (visits to hospitals, funerals, sick people etc.) What about the men who started this church. Brother Henry and his father who have poured their entire lives into Faith Tabernacle. It's sad to me that Eddie and now BD are trying to take away this church from these sweet people.

EVERYONE-It didn't take a public forum to state these facts. they are everywhere

You are right, Right. The mess of the last pastor and for the long suffering of these elders who felt if they walked away this church would no longer be the church we have known it to be for over 40 yrs. If the change BD wanted was of God, it would have happened without this fight. Change can be good, but 'take-over' is not.

The pastor has spent weeks extolling the tithe....that is why it was such an issue Even if said salary was inclusive of all the things indicated as his response to questions....He still gave way less than 10%. He has created an atmosphere of dominance and control jerking things around at a whim. The elders have only addressed this now because their efforts to work with him have dissolved. While he may respond to some with patience, to others he has been only angry and stacked the deck in his favor by not allowing them to have the elders in with them, but put his paid staff and their wives there. They were strangers to the parties involved and even the wives were allowed to comment. I do not think any one would not be intimidated by that..
He has demonstrated uncontrolled anger and others have seen it.
This man sat on the podium in his first weeks here and promised he would never have his hand in the finances. When he has been told the church could not afford certain decisions, he took control of those finances. The statement all leadership repeats like a mindless mantra is that he is pastor and he can do what he wants. I am sorry, God does not require that we ignore wrong. In fact we are accountable for drawing a line with the wrong. The judging we do is with the actions, God takes care of the soul. When one man decides he is not accountable, then it is a slap in the face to everyone who has supported and sacrificed. He has not allowed the elders except at the last moment before voting to address the issues. If it was truly fair they should have had more time to answer the body as to why they have asked him to resign. The elders are men who have been at our hospital beds, funerals, praying with us, or just taking care of church details faithfully. Their integrity is indisputable yet they are being treated very poorly and rudely. They don't ask for bigger paychecks or to be honored, but they are humbly honored to serve our Lord. They have followed the church constitution to deal with this issue. I hope again that people will look at the questionable reasons and not just decide on emotion about a serious issue of character. Healthy leadership would not allow there to be a question of how finances were handled. I pray for the man, his family, and associates that they will grow to be the emotionally healthy leaders God desires. Good leadership would not be worried about their control and position but to love and teach God's Word to mature his body. Instead we have spent multiple weeks being fussed on for one issue or the other that most of us knew nothing about in detail until this week. So he has had his bully pulpit for long enough. You do not submit to bullies. Humble servants will grab my heart any day.

You can't take a corporation, call it "church" and spritualize it into something much higher than what it is. It is a business, even if it's product is called "god". It is politics. And it was never meant to be, regardless of how well meaning those involved may be. You can hire and fire, you can vote in and out. That is business. Nothing holy about it.

Sounds like what you have here is a corporate takeover. Instead of buying a controlling interest in stocks, this CEO seems to be investing in a controlling interest in votes. And, what is to be gained? Lots of power and money. Hello Wall Street and the Big Banks that stuck it to the average people. Any difference here? I don't think so.

It's okay to belong to a corporation. Just see it for what it is.

guess i wont get 2 vote sun as i tithe cash & never tag or envelop it. what a freakin mess. wonder if i tithed 20% with a check if my vote would count double

does anyone really believe the vote will b a honest tally 2 many subjective reasons 2 disqualify any vote

quote:

Originally posted by ME:
You are right, Right. The mess of the last pastor and for the long suffering of these elders who felt if they walked away this church would no longer be the church we have known it to be for over 40 yrs. If the change BD wanted was of God, it would have happened without this fight. Change can be good, but 'take-over' is not.

ughhh, no where does change not demand a struggle but as a christian struggle never justifies a rebel.

mayb dats our problem, the faithchuch will essentially die if it remains the chuch we have known it to be 4 the last 40. udo realize that these guys within 25 yrs willb pushing daises? cant say by the example set that the youth (my generation) @Faith will lead with more honesty thats why wer outta here, we dontwanna bcome you.

we talk change is good while whisperin how great egypt was!!

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:

quote:

Originally posted by Leb:
guess i wont get 2 vote sun as i tithe cash & never tag or envelop it. what a freakin mess. wonder if i tithed 20% with a check if my vote would count double

does anyone really believe the vote will b a honest tally 2 many subjective reasons 2 disqualify any vote

No, I do not think it will be a honest vote. The Pastor is running the show. He got to select the date and the time of the vote. He will more than likely get the last word before the vote. Theres no telling how the voting process will go sunday, or even the service. The elders need to make a clear votong criteria and make sure it is followed by those voting/collecting the votes. The elders need to be in control of the sunday night service and make sure it runs smoothly.

4 shiz neither side trust the other & holds bout the same level esteem for the other

quote:

Originally posted by raine:
I know that it was said that you could obtain an absentee ballot... but what about the nursery workers, will they have a chance to go to hear part of the meeting and vote?

2 vote? yes but dont c how 2b apart of the service.

quote:

Originally posted by Leb:

quote:

Originally posted by ME:
You are right, Right. The mess of the last pastor and for the long suffering of these elders who felt if they walked away this church would no longer be the church we have known it to be for over 40 yrs. If the change BD wanted was of God, it would have happened without this fight. Change can be good, but 'take-over' is not.

ughhh, no where does change not demand a struggle but as a christian struggle never justifies a rebel.

mayb dats our problem, the faithchuch will essentially die if it remains the chuch we have known it to be 4 the last 40. udo realize that these guys within 25 yrs willb pushing daises? cant say by the example set that the youth (my generation) @Faith will lead with more honesty thats why wer outta here, we dontwanna bcome you.

we talk change is good while whisperin how great egypt was!!

I can understand the youth are very upset about this issue...I hear the youth pastor is excellent. But he has sworn allegiance to a man over the youth. While some of us may be pushing daisies sooner than the youth, you are right if we do not change we will die spiritually. The change I want to see is that we quit misusing the Word and we get a sound understanding of scripture in it's true application. We throw the Word around subjectively taking it out of its context to mean whatever we want it to mean at the time. We raise leaders to a status that they are the only ones to hear from God. That takes us off the hook to know God's Word ourselves. So when someone appeals to us we throw aside sound reason for the relationship or feel good activity. I have been at this church over 30 years and the hurt reputation it has suffered in recent years if only been because men with character problems lead by example. If you think this issue is just because people do not want change, then you do not understand the issues at all. Why should the assets this people have sacrificed for for decades go a direction that could turn those assets over to another entity? If that is the change that is wanted then go out and honestly build your own kingdom, but leave the honest endeavors of those who have been faithful to care for this one alone.
Hear the heart of the elders by speaking with them and verify your facts. The tithe issue is in the church end of the year IRS documents. I have no issue with whether he gives 1 or 10%, but it has been a requirement for leadership to tithe 10% and that is what he has preached for weeks. Someone has to look at those numbers to meet legalities of income tax. That issue has only been brought up to show that what he says is not always true.

quote:

ughhh, no where does change not demand a struggle but as a christian struggle never justifies a rebel.

mayb dats our problem, the faithchuch will essentially die if it remains the chuch we have known it to be 4 the last 40. udo realize that these guys within 25 yrs willb pushing daises? cant say by the example set that the youth (my generation) @Faith will lead with more honesty thats why wer outta here, we dontwanna bcome you.

we talk change is good while whisperin how great egypt was!!

I'm really sorry your experience with Faith's youth has made you so cynical. Hopefully, in 25 years you will be the wise one with years of experience, guiding and helping others with the messes of their lives. That's why we have to be careful not to over-spiritualize the pastor, elders, tithing, buildings, youth ministry etc. etc. They are the product of men, hopefully that are seeking God to do it right, but always falling short of the mark. Guess what, you will become us, because at one time we were you. You know nothing of change. The rebel here isn't the mature saints fighting change, but the pastor demanding his own way (like a child) against the wisdom of many.

quote:

Originally posted by CD:
I can understand the youth are very upset about this issue...I hear the youth pastor is excellent. But he has sworn allegiance to a man over the youth. While some of us may be pushing daisies sooner than the youth, you are right if we do not change we will die spiritually. The change I want to see is that we quit misusing the Word and we get a sound understanding of scripture in it's true application. We throw the Word around subjectively taking it out of its context to mean whatever we want it to mean at the time. We raise leaders to a status that they are the only ones to hear from God. That takes us off the hook to know God's Word ourselves. So when someone appeals to us we throw aside sound reason for the relationship or feel good activity. I have been at this church over 30 years and the hurt reputation it has suffered in recent years if only been because men with character problems lead by example. If you think this issue is just because people do not want change, then you do not understand the issues at all. Why should the assets this people have sacrificed for for decades go a direction that could turn those assets over to another entity? If that is the change that is wanted then go out and honestly build your own kingdom, but leave the honest endeavors of those who have been faithful to care for this one alone.
Hear the heart of the elders by speaking with them and verify your facts. The tithe issue is in the church end of the year IRS documents. I have no issue with whether he gives 1 or 10%, but it has been a requirement for leadership to tithe 10% and that is what he has preached for weeks. Someone has to look at those numbers to meet legalities of income tax. That issue has only been brought up to show that what he says is not always true.

excellent...? idk, u may wanna checkout what goes back there. very very few care for him or his wife 2 put it politely. not good

ive not said i support these guys staying. but after thhey leave will the chuch correct the nightmare selection & going 0-forever n handling this situations?

quote:

ive not said i support these guys staying. but after thhey leave will the chuch correct the nightmare selection & going 0-forever n handling this situations?

It's an imperfect system with imperfect people. I hope this church will learn from this ordeal, but how often do each one of us repeat our mistakes. Look at our government...we have lots of history to learn from and still make the same mistakes over and over.

When we make the decision on a man based on subjective spiritual reasoning, and not treat it much as any other job we are easily mislead. We were lead by a man who maybe did not have as much leadership ability as he had in love and character. People followed because they loved him. A longer trial period, gradual salary scale, and maybe even skill set and personality testing could better determine a good fit. Add to that prayerful consideration and it could be a better decision. Experts say that in choosing a mate you want to see that person in a lot of different situations to see how a person interacts with their family and yours, and with your friends etc. for a long enough period of time that you see their strengths and weaknesses and determine what you can live with or would be destructive. I think this could apply in this arena also.
My greatest heartache is that even in choosing it sets up dynamics of people not speaking to one another or shunning each other. My heart's cry is that their would be an attempt at mediation by experts in doing that work. I am praying for a heart change in this area......it is about loving the people more setting up the dynamics to divide them. Christ laid down his life for the church and I don't think he did it for a building or a particular ministry. God help each of us as we disagree to not treat each other badly.

you say that they have Elders? this was their Job to handle, if not why do you have them?

quote:

prince albert
Familiar Face
Posted 03 June 2010 03:22 PM Hide Post
you say that they have Elders? this was their Job to handle, if not why do you have them?

Unfortunately,that is what they are having to do now. They feel they have tried to work with him for almost two years and it has been constant contention. I guess they can't agree on a lot of issues. Now they will present the facts of their grievances and let the congregation decide if they want the pastor to stay or leave.
We have them because they bring balance to the leadership. They are 5 men who have been at this church for many years vs. a pastor that has been here less than two and never been a SR. pastor before.

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:
Whats sad is pastor is in total control of this whole process. He has not allowed the Elders to speak from the pulpit. Sunday night before the vote, he has limited what the Elders can say. Look for pastor to put on a dog and poney show sunday. The people have to spread the word around because the Elders have been silenced by pastor and they need the people to be their voice.

some thing no body has answered if he is voted to b pastor does this by default fire the elders or what? if so it should b said a vote 4 the pastor is a vote 4 the pastor(s) &no 4 the elders.

You are so right. I am sure no one knows how to react so they may not know. Most of us are just dreading Sunday night and cry over the father who lead for over 40 years seeing it destroyed. Most of us remember his Dad and the founding elderly who have passed on. These are not rebellious people...they are being maligned for standing for truth. No one man should have total authority. The problem is with people who feel one man has such a special call from God and destiny. God is not interested in men's buildings, or ministries. He wants a personal relationship with each of us and as we live our lives we hopefully are an expression of him to the culture . Local assemblies are just that assemblies of people who come together to worship and teach God's Word by our choice to go there. It is too subjective for a man to say he is specially called and has special abilities....how do you argue with that? It is a tactic to make the people feel like less of a servant and to put themselves on a pedestal. How convenient the license you can take to make yourself righteous and right because you are God's man. You can hide behind that for whatever excuse you have for your personal weaknesses and character issues. It has been said in meetings with church staff that if you are not on board with what he is doing then you are against them. Thus certain paid staff have said if he goes thenwe go even though the elders have stated they have had no issues with them. How can it be fair when the pastor has denied the opportunity for the elders to speak until the very last moment.. how can people make a fair decision if they only hear only a portion of the charges before they vote and the elders get no rebuttal to his answers. He has refused any effort until the last minute for any one to know anything so the elders had to try to distribute their thoughts as best they could to the congregation.. Many people will go to the vote without all the facts. One long time member was asked at Wed. night service about what this was all about. As he answered another member who is a local business man walked up and said "Don't listen to him. He is a liar." I understand people feel strongly about this, but the pastor militants do not want us to have all the facts. Maybe they are sincere or maybe they are caught up in toxic tactics to accomplish someone's goals.

quote:

Thus certain paid staff have said if he goes thenwe go even though the elders have stated they have had no issues with them.

no issues after they c some of their quotes comments & facebook fun they will. actually some ofit just got deleted after harsh replys

quote:

Originally posted by Leb:

quote:

Thus certain paid staff have said if he goes thenwe go even though the elders have stated they have had no issues with them.

no issues after they c some of their quotes comments & facebook fun they will. actually some ofit just got deleted after harsh replys. fan away!

Great book by Stephen Arterburn called Toxic Faith is like looking at a checklist of ingredients for the mess this has become.

Quote from the book, In a healthy system individuals respect the person and position of leadership. For it to remain healthy there must be respect for the workers. Without respect there is no one is allowed to disagree. If they don't like something they are complainers, negative thinkers, not team players. The toxic faith system has no room for anyone who challenges the integrity or disagrees with the methods of the leader. In a toxic system loyalty is equated with blind faith and complete agreement with the leader. When allegiance evaporates, the confrontational workers or church members are labeled as outcasts so people are forced to rebel since there is no room for disagreement.
Outcasts who challenge the delusion of the system are discredited. The toxic system creates a lose-lose situation where outcasts must give up perceptions of reality or be willing to face complete rejection. Abandonment becomes the reward for trying to correct the ministry. Because they can interpret reality for themselves even when many contradict their insights. They are unimpressed with men or their positions. They love God and want to protect his people and his institutions from spiritual fraud. A toxic faith system cannot handle the dedication to truth and insight. Often they are forced to put the church they love or jobs on the altar of sacrifice as they are forced to get out of the toxic system.

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:
My guess is, if hes voted back as pastor, all of the elders will resign and leave the church... that list could include alot more people in leadership roles. So its a no win situation for the pastor.

Let them leave. Even though he preached on tithing a lot, somebody can talk to him about that. He had a ton of good service that always kept my attention. Maybe some of the elders should listen. Nobody is perfect. God is the only one. I'm 16 years old and I have enjoyed Pastor Bill's sermons.

Corruption, funded by tithes, is a preacher's right and duty.

It's been the norm for almost 2000 years. Who expects less?

Lighten up. Let's hope the preacher had fun on his cruise. He needs a break from tending his flock of sheeples. It's hard work insinuating one's self into every parishioner's sinful life.

I hope he found himself a wee babe in one of the ports of call who gave him a soothing massage.


DF

Ya know? I can't really say anything regarding this subject because I'm not privy to it. I wasn't there, but I will say that it does my heart good to see young people actually using their own minds to figure stuff out-on ANY level instead of just blindly foillowing.
Maybe there IS hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:

quote:

Originally posted by Leb:

quote:

Thus certain paid staff have said if he goes thenwe go even though the elders have stated they have had no issues with them.

no issues after they c some of their quotes comments & facebook fun they will. actually some ofit just got deleted after harsh replys

Can you PM me with more details about this?

soooo, which 1 r u? only leadership would want such dirt on the youth pastor

There is hurt and disappointment all around. Expressions of caustic remarks are all over facebook. I mourn for everyone, but ethical issues had to be addressed so people can trust where their resources are being used. A budget is part of that trust and without one the church was rolling down a slippery slope blindly. What reason could there be for that kind of negligence? I hurt for the leadership families on both sides. Elders did not take that step lightly and have been condemned without a chance to even present the issues in a logical way. In the real world of work people are dismissed for poor choices or lack of ability to get along with others. Sundays statement that I am only accountable to God was very telling. Everyone is accountable to others. Do you want your banker or doctor to not be accountable? It is sad, but this could have been remedied by a humble attitude and seeking help to work out issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Right...:
Actually, he is blindly following cause he clearly hasnt read the charges. Liking someone just because they give a great sermon, regardless of how that person conducts himself away from the pulpit, would be like liking Hitler because he could give a great speech/sermon. Men can get up and give a captivating speech, but you must judge them by their actions... anyone can talk a good game, but do they actually live it out?

You can't just keep judging people by their actions because we wouldn't get anywhere in life!