Re: Can A Christian Lose Salvation?

Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi to all my Forum Friends,

The article below "Can A Christian Lose Salvation?" from GotQuestions.Org came to me this morning in an e-mail. And, it seems to summarize the question of "eternal security" so well -- that I want to share it with all my Friends. I believe it touches on all the pertinent points of that discussion: "Can a person who is a true Christian really lose or walk away from his/her salvation?" And, the Biblical answer obviously is, "NO."

Keep in mind that when we build a theology, that theology MUST agree with, i.e., not contradict, all of Scripture, all 66 books. Some who want to weaken the Christian faith, or others who want to spend their Christian life always looking over their shoulder from fear that some sin may rob them of their salvation -- will cherry pick specific verses or passages and focus only on those in an attempt to disprove eternal life. But, in doing that, they have to ignore many other Scripture verses/passages.

And, they have to ignore what the word "eternal" in "eternal life" means. "Eternal" means "never ending." The dictionary tells us that "eternal" means: "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." So, how can a promised existence which God tells us is eternal(John 6:47)-- not last forever? To deny "eternal security" for those in Christ -- is calling God a liar. I will not do that!

THAT is why it is so important to build our theology upon the full 66 books of Scripture -- and why it is so important for a church to teach expositionally through the Bible, skipping no verses.

When a church teaches topical sermons and Bible studies, those leaders/teachers can pick and choose which topics, i.e, which parts of Scripture they want to accept -- and which parts they want to ignore. That cannot be done when teaching expositionally through Scripture.

One of the most commonly quoted Scripture passages used by non-believers and those in the liberal theology camp who want to disprove the teaching of a Christian believer's "eternal security" is found in Matthew 7:

Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' "

Let's pause for a moment and consider what Jesus is teaching here, especially what He teaches in verse 23, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' " If Jesus NEVER knew them -- they most definitely were NEVER true Christian believers.

Two Christian groups which I believe do not look at the full 66 books of Scripture, but cherry pick to support their chosen theologies, and are therefore erroneous, yet still Christian -- are Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinism teaches that only the few called Elect who were chosen before the Creation will go to heaven, and the vast majority called Reprobates who were also chosen before Creation will spend eternity in hell.

That does not represent the God I worship who tells me, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47). Calvinists will tell us, "God does not allow the Reprobate to believe." Then, why did He create them? The God I love and worship would NOT create human beings just for the purpose of sending them into eternal suffering.

And, the Arminians tell us that Jesus Christ died to offer eternal life to all people as taught in John 3:16. To that point, I agree with them. But, then they tell us that there are sins which will cause the true believer to lose his/her salvation. They walk through life always afraid they will commit that unforgivable sin which will cast them into hell.

Romans 5:1 tells us, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." What kind of peace is that, if we have to always be worried about stepping on a "spiritual banana peeling" and falling into hell? To trust in that theology -- one must ignore a lot of Scripture.

GotQuestions.Org tells us of these two theologies:

This is the age-old theological debate between Arminians (those who hold to conditional security) -- and Calvinists (those who hold to what it called “eternal” security or Perseverance of the Saints). Where the Arminian can trot out dozens of biblical passages that point to the believer’s conditional security, the Calvinist can point to an equally large array of biblical passages to support the view of eternal security. . . (http://www.gotquestions.org/conditional-security.html)

With that introduction, let me share with you the GotQuestion.Org article I received this morning:

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Ch...-lose-salvation.html

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” (or deny) what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation -- then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost.

Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind -- two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are (1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? and (2) What about those who are Christians, but later reject the faith and deny Christ?

The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy -- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Recommended Resources: "Eternal Security" by Charles Stanley

Other recommended readings on this subject are found at:

What is conditional security? -- http://www.gotquestions.org/conditional-security.html

If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy? -- http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

Is eternal security a "license" to sin? -- http://www.gotquestions.org/license-sin.html

Once saved always saved? -- http://www.gotquestions.org/on...ed-always-saved.html

Can a Christian "give back" salvation? -- http://www.gotquestions.org/give-back-salvation.html

My Friend, if you are a Christian believer, if you have by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8) believed and received His "paid in full" gift of eternal life -- YOU are in the family of God.

And, when God adopts you -- NO ONE can snatch you out of His family or out of His hands (John 10:28-29). Therefore, you CAN have peace with God through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1) for "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). So, have a nice day and rest in our Lord, for He is our Rest.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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6/20/144:49 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Contendah, my Friend,

Over in the "Saw This On Facebook -- Supposed Top 10 Christian Cliches!" discussion you bring up the issue of Paul addressing the local church group as "brethren" -- and then complain that I did not address the issue of "eternal security" when I responded to your comment about "brethren."

Yet, here I HAVE addressed the issue of "eternal security" -- and for days you have been very quiet, not responding to what I have written. Seems strange that, on a discussion regarding a totally different issue -- you complain that I did not address "eternal security."

But, on this discussion where I HAVE addressed "eternal security" -- no Contendah. Could your complaint in the other discussion -- merely be a ploy to distract folks from the correct answer I did give there? Seems you and I have a problem staying on the same track. You ask about oranges -- and when I address oranges, you complain, "But, what about apples?"

My Friend, you do have your apples and oranges in the wrong baskets!

Bless your distracted little heart!

Bill

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6/23/142:22 PM

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Crash.OverrideOld Faithful

how many of you need to read 5 or 6 pages of this ignorance to see where this is gonna end up?

6/23/143:53 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Crash, my Friend,

For you I would suggest a book which is made up of 66 books combined in one divine revelation to mankind. But, I must warn you that it will conflict with your secular society and with your Richard Dawkins' atheist bibles.

And, it is more than one paragraph long. So, you and several other Forum Friends might have trouble holding your concentration long enough to read very much at one time. One writes in only "periods" and the other only in "numbers."

But, not to worry, my Friend. Since you get lost after the first three sentences of any post -- just feel free to ignore what I write. You would not understand it anyway.

Bless your simple little heart!

Bill

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6/23/144:57 PM

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Crash.OverrideOld Faithful

bill, those 66 books were picked out by a group of catholic men... you remember.. those same people you rail against, daily? you can spin it any way you wish.. but, the group of people you show your hatred for every day actually made the book you worship!

6/23/147:08 PM

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smokey1Hall of Famer

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crash, my Friend,

But, not to worry, my Friend. Since you get lost after the first three sentences of any post -- just feel free to ignore what I write. You would not understand it anyway.

Bless your simple little heart!

Bill

=================

Is this attack on Crusty an example of what you think Christ-like behavior is?

6/23/147:19 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by Crash.Override:
bill, those 66 books were picked out by a group of catholic men... you remember.. those same people you rail against, daily? you can spin it any way you wish.. but, the group of people you show your hatred for every day actually made the book you worship!

Crash, my Friend,

Sorry, but you are wrong! Scripture was inspired by God, staring with Moses and the Pentateuch -- and through all the Old Testament and New Testament books. The God YOU deny -- inspired all 66 books to be written -- just as HE wanted.

And, that same God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent enough to inspire all 66 books to be written -- is also omnipotent enough to assure that the books He wanted to be canonized, and only those books, were added to the canon of Scripture.

Did God use some men who had fallen into the erroneous Roman Catholic religion to do His will and canonize those 66 books? Yes. Just as God used Pharaoh to establish His Jewish nation, His people, and to glorify Himself through the hardened heart of Pharaoh.

God can use any of us -- even the hardened atheist heart -- to share His Written Word and its message.

You and I are a great example of that. You thought your lofty declaration, "bill, those 66 books were picked out by a group of catholic men" would cause the Christian in me to wither and run. Yet, your atheistic rant gave me a good platform to explain how we REALLY got the Bible, which consists of the 66 books of canon.

For you help and great assistance -- I thank you! And, I know that God thanks you!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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6/23/147:40 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote:   Originally Posted by smokey1:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Crash, my Friend,

For you I would suggest a book which is made up of 66 books combined in one divine revelation to mankind.   But, I must warn you that it will conflict with your secular society and with your Richard Dawkins' atheist bibles.

And, it is more than one paragraph long.   So, you and several other Forum Friends might have trouble holding your concentration long enough to read very much at one time. One writes in only "periods" and the other only in "numbers."

But, not to worry, my Friend.   Since you get lost after the first three sentences of any post -- just feel free to ignore what I write.   You would not understand it anyway.

Bless your simple little heart!   Bill
Is this attack on Crusty an example of what you think Christ-like behavior is?

Smokey, my Friend,

Please show us all where I have mentioned the name of Crusty anywhere in this discussion.

My Friend, are you visualizing things which are not there? Have you had your eyes checked lately?

Bless your little confused heart!

Bill

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6/23/147:46 PM

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JDawgEverybody Knows My Name

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

quote:   Originally Posted by smokey1:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Crash, my Friend,

For you I would suggest a book which is made up of 66 books combined in one divine revelation to mankind.   But, I must warn you that it will conflict with your secular society and with your Richard Dawkins' atheist bibles.

And, it is more than one paragraph long.   So, you and several other Forum Friends might have trouble holding your concentration long enough to read very much at one time. One writes in only "periods" and the other only in "numbers."

But, not to worry, my Friend.   Since you get lost after the first three sentences of any post -- just feel free to ignore what I write.   You would not understand it anyway.

Bless your simple little heart!   Bill
Is this attack on Crusty an example of what you think Christ-like behavior is?

Smokey, my Friend,

Please show us all where I have mentioned the name of Crusty anywhere in this discussion.

My Friend, are you visualizing things which are not there? Have you had your eyes checked lately?

Bless your little confused heart!

Bill

_________________

Good grief, he typed "Crusty", but you KNOW he meant Crash....and instead of answering his question, or ignoring it completely, you condescend and attempt to belittle. DO you think this demonstrates the Love of Jesus?

6/23/148:56 PM

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Crash.OverrideOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

quote: Originally Posted by Crash.Override:
bill, those 66 books were picked out by a group of catholic men... you remember.. those same people you rail against, daily? you can spin it any way you wish.. but, the group of people you show your hatred for every day actually made the book you worship!

Crash, my Friend,

God can use any of us -- even the hardened atheist heart -- to share His Written Word and its message.

For you help and great assistance -- I thank you! And, I know that God thanks you!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

____________

sorry, bill.. but, you are WRONG! .. a group of catholic men decided which books to include in the bible.. and which books to leave out.. CATHOLICS! you can make all the claims you wish.. but, FACTS are FACTS.. and your 'doublespeak' and 'period talk' sure doesn't show you in a good light.

6/23/149:44 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Okay, Crash, my Friend,

In YOUR world, God does not exist -- and the Bible is just paper and ink!

Go on living your atheist life and have a ball -- but, one day YOU WILL come face-to-face with that God who does not exist. And, by that time -- it will be too late.

You can read all about that meeting in that bunch of paper and ink you so dislike. You can find it at Revelation 20:11-15. Yes, you will smirk now. I wonder how you will feel when you discover that Revelation 20:11-15 is really true -- and that God is very real?

Bless your lost little heart!

Bill

ARE YOU REALLY SURE

THERE IS NO GOD AND NO HELL?

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6/23/1410:05 PM

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Crash.OverrideOld Faithful

just as i suspected.. not one bit of fact in bill's entire reply.. instead, a sermon about how i'm gonna be sorry i didn't 'play it safe'... and telling me what i believe. get some help bill.. you can't even stay on your own topic.

6/23/1410:12 PM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

You wrote this, Bill.

'One writes in only "periods" and the other only in "numbers."'

Who is it exactly you are accusing of writing "only in "numbers?""

Here's your Kleenex. Wipe your chin, the drool is disgusting.

6/23/1410:22 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
You wrote this, Bill.

"One writes in only 'periods' and the other only in 'numbers'."

Who is it exactly you are accusing of writing "only in "numbers?"

Here's your Kleenex. Wipe your chin, the drool is disgusting.

Crusty, my Friend,

Are you now psychic -- that you can see names, where there are no names? If you see your name somewhere in there -- please show me.

I have often heard that when you put a group of people together in a room, and then begin to discuss an offense which one of them has committed -- you can easily pick out the guilty party.

About ten years ago, my daughter needed one more credit to graduate college with her degree in business. So, she took a class in World Religions. The professor told the class they could earn special credit by doing a special project, or by inviting someone to speak to the class. My daughter asked me to speak to her class.

I prepared a PowerPoint Presentation titled "It All Began With Creation" for that talk. Before I got to the classroom, my daughter told me that one person in the class was an atheist. But, she gave me no clue who was the villian.

After my talk, she and I went into the hallway. I told her, "The man with the goatee sitting in the last seat in the far left row is the atheist." She was surprised and asked how I knew. I told her, "It was easy. I could watch his reactions compared to the rest of he class -- and it was easy to spot the atheist."

And, it appears that YOU seem to be squirming. Is it because my statement made you squirm a wee bit?

Oh, by the way, if you would like me to send you my PowerPoint Presentation titled "It All Began With Creation" -- I will be happy to e-mail it to you. Just PM me your e-mail address -- here or on Facebook. And, it is the improved version -- for I have used it in several Bible studies and added improvements.

Bless your little heart!

Bill

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6/23/1411:59 PM

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INVICTUSOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Crash.Override:

Crash, are you surprised as I am college students never heard of the alleged

creation story..?? I've scanned this lie for the tenth time since being on this

forum. Banjo music is the faux psychic around here , or liar, that's a better

fit for him. Of course he can spot a atheist a mile away or in a class room

full of horrified adults knowing their ass is about to be bored off.

What billie would want you to believe is a parable is actually a flat out lie..

....!!!!

6/24/148:04 AM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
You wrote this, Bill.

"One writes in only 'periods' and the other only in 'numbers'."

Who is it exactly you are accusing of writing "only in "numbers?"

Here's your Kleenex. Wipe your chin, the drool is disgusting.

Crusty, my Friend,

Are you now psychic -- that you can see names, where there are no names? If you see your name somewhere in there -- please show me.

I have often heard that when you put a group of people together in a room, and then begin to discuss an offense which one of them has committed -- you can easily pick out the guilty party.

And, it appears that YOU seem to be squirming. Is it because my statement made you squirm a wee bit?

Bless your little heart!

Bill

__________________

Didn't make me squirm. You didn't answer my question, so I'm assuming that it is you that is squirming.

Here's another Kleenex.

6/24/141:20 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
What billie would want you to believe is a parable is actually a flat out lie......!!!!

Vic, my Friend,

Could you be confused? I have searched this entire discussion -- and I can find NO MENTION of a parable, any parable. Maybe the problem is that YOU do not know how to recognize a parable. That is all too common when folks rely upon traditions and teachings of mere men -- instead of the Bible -- to determine their theology and doctrines.

May I suggest that you find a good local Christian fellowship and get involved with them, especially in their Bible studies. Then, you will learn truly how to spot a parable. And, you will learn the true teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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6/29/1411:53 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by Crash.Override:
bill, those 66 books were picked out by a group of catholic men... you remember.. those same people you rail against, daily? you can spin it any way you wish.. but, the group of people you show your hatred for every day actually made the book you worship!

Crash, my Friend,

You are somewhat confused on this issue; which is not surprising considering that you are an atheist and could care less about the Bible. You only goal is to stir up disagreement on any issue pertaining to the Christian faith. But, let me give you a more definitive answer regarding Scripture and the canon of Scripture:

Question: "How and when was the canon of the Bible put together?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

Answer: The term “canon” is used to describe the books that are divinely inspired and therefore belong in the Bible. The difficulty in determining the biblical canon is that the Bible does not give us a list of the books that belong in the Bible.

Determining the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis and scholars and later by early Christians. Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon.

A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God’s convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.

Compared to the New Testament, there was much less controversy over the canon of the Old Testament. Hebrew believers recognized God’s messengers and accepted their writings as inspired of God. While there was undeniably some debate in regards to the Old Testament canon, by A.D. 250 there was nearly universal agreement on the canon of Hebrew Scripture.

The only issue that remained was the Apocrypha, with some debate and discussion continuing today. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars considered the Apocrypha to be good historical and religious documents, but not on the same level as the Hebrew Scriptures.

For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. (Bill Gray note: there were no Roman Catholics in the first century, only Day of Pentecost 33 AD Christian believers)

Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27).

Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

(Bill Gray note: Since the Roman Catholic church was not born until around 312 AD, none of those mentioned above could have been Roman Catholic)

The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John.

(Bill Gray note: In the following paragraph, the Roman Catholics come in and muddy the water -- trying to force feed the Apocrypha into Scripture -- for the must have that to support most of their traditions, doctrines, and teachings)

In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

The councils followed something similar to the following principles to determine whether a New Testament book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit: (1) Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? (2) Is the book being accepted by the body of Christ at large? (3) Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? (4) Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit?

Again, it is crucial to remember that the church did not determine the canon. No early church council decided on the canon. It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible.

It was simply a matter of God’s imparting to His followers what He had already decided. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, and despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.

Recommended Resources: The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce

And, that, my Friend, is how the canon of the Bible, all 66 books, was established.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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7/1/148:06 AM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

Bill, you need to go back and get some Bible history under your belt. Heck, just go back and get some actual history. God didn't write anything in the Bible, contrary to your heretical beliefs.

This is the part that makes me laugh out loud:

The original translators of your beloved KJV also included the Apocrypha. You are really a hoot.

Have another blissed day, Bill.

Here's your Kleenex.

7/1/146:17 PM

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INVICTUSOld Faithful

I miss much of his trash because I don't read the diarrhea through his teeth

show. Everyday he's more unbelievable in every sense of the word.

7/1/146:34 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Bill, you need to go back and get some Bible history under your belt. Heck, just go back and get some actual history. God didn't write anything in the Bible, contrary to your heretical beliefs.

Crusty, my Friend,

You tell me that YOU are a Christian believer. Okay. Let me ask you a very serious question.

Did God have anything to do with the Bible that we have today? Was He involved in any way with its creation, writing, etc.? Please explain.

In your mind, exactly what is the Bible?

Appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions -- which should be easy for any Christian believer to answer. Thank you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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7/1/147:59 PM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

I take that back, Bill. You are correct. God wrote the 10 Commandments. Men wrote everything else. Men compiled and edited the Bible. It's not the perfect work you make it out to be. It isn't God, it isn't the deity you make it out to be.

There is a very important message in the Bible for you, though. If you pay attention, you may actually find yourself on the working end of a relationship with God. I doubt this will ever happen as your NPD won't allow it.

7/1/1410:40 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Crusty, my Friend,

Simple questions: Is the Bible God's Written Word? Or is it only a book of myths written by man?

If the Bible is God's written Word, why do you trash it?

If the Bible is only a book of myths created my men -- how does anyone get saved, how does anyone become a Christian believer?

You have told us that you are a Christian believer. How were YOU saved, if there is no Written Word of God?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

7/2/148:26 PM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

<<Sigh>> Bill, we've been through this many times before.

I don't denigrate the Bible. I don't trash it. I denigrate your misinterpretation of the Bible.

As I've said many times before, the Bible was written, edited, and compiled by men. It cannot be taken 100% literally - if it could, you would have to believe that the earth is flat - and it certainly isn't inerrant.

I understand that you love the Bible with all your heart and all your mind, and that you worship it as your god. You elevate the Bible to above even God an Jesus, and that is as close to a relationship you have with either, which is no relationship at all. You subscribe to a house of cards theology that falls apart when given even the slightest critical glance.

You might as well read a biography of someone and say that you have a relationship with that person - it is the same as only relating to God through the Bible.

The Bible hasn't saved anyone, anymore than a map has driven you somewhere.

You keep trying to distort what I believe and what I do, shame on you for your dishonesty.

I'm trying to help you here. Get a deprogrammer to rid you of your cult ties, get a psychiatrist to help you with your narcissism, and get a neurologist to help you with your Alzheimer's. Get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness for your heretical beliefs. Read the Bible for truth and the message contained therein; grasp that truth to your heart and have an actual relationship with God.

Until you do those things you are doomed to a fantasy of self-assuredness and an eternal hot seat. Get help soon, your time is running out.

7/3/148:31 PM

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House of DavidHall of Famer

Our salvation is contingent upon many things according to the Bible. This indicates the certainty of our salvation is not absolute. Just a few examples include 1 John 1:8-9: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The text says we will be forgiven if. Thus, the sobering truth is: Unconfessed sin will not be forgiven. And the Bible is very clear that no sin can enter into heaven (see Hb 1:13; Rv 21:8-9, 27).

7/4/1412:00 AM

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House of DavidHall of Famer

Please note the words in all caps;

1 Corinthians 15:1-2: Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, IF you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. (See also Matthew 24:44-51; Luke 12:41-46; Romans 11:22; Hebrews 3:6;14; Revelation 2:10; 25-26; 3:1-5; 22:18-19, for many more "ifs" and contingency clauses.)
Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard . . .
2 Peter 2:20-22: For IF, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first . . . It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

7/4/1412:04 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Crusty, my Friend,

You tell me, "As I've said many times before, the Bible was written, edited, and compiled by men. It cannot be taken 100% literally - if it could, you would have to believe that the earth is flat - and it certainly isn't inerrant."

So, according to you it seems that the Bible is 100% from men. Did God have NOTHING to do with creating the Bible? Was God not involved at all?

If so, then it is not a holy book; for men cannot create anything which is holy. Only God is holy and only what God creates is holy. So, according to you -- the Bible is NOT holy! Okay,

If God was involved with creating the Bible -- then how can it not be inerrant. Does God make mistakes? Does God ever have an "Oops!" moment? Crusty, if God was involved in creating the Bible -- then it has to be inerrant -- for God is inerrant.

So, what say you? Bible from God? Or, is the Bible from men? If the Bible is from men, then it is not the holy Bible.

Please give us a clear understanding of where YOU place the Bible -- with God or with men?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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7/4/1412:14 AM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crusty, my Friend,

So, according to you it seems that the Bible is 100% from men. Did God have NOTHING to do with creating the Bible? Was God not involved at all?

If so, then it is not a holy book; for men cannot create anything which is holy. Only God is holy and only what God creates is holy. So, according to you -- the Bible is NOT holy! Okay,

So, what say you? Bible from God? Or, is the Bible from men? If the Bible is from men, then it is not the holy Bible.

Please give us a clear understanding of where YOU place the Bible -- with God or with men?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

____________

God wrote the Ten Commandments, and Jesus is quoted quite a bit. You don't believe that the Bible is inerrant - you ignore Jesus' teaching all the time. So, enough with your rhetorical questions and idiotic "logic".

Here is your Kleenex.

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7/4/1412:22 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Crusty, my Friend,

You tell me, "As I've said many times before, the Bible was written, edited, and compiled by men. It cannot be taken 100% literally - if it could, you would have to believe that the earth is flat - and it certainly isn't inerrant."

So, according to you it seems that the Bible is 100% from men. Did God have NOTHING to do with creating the Bible? Was God not involved at all?

If so, then it is not a holy book; for men cannot create anything which is holy.   Only God is holy and only what God creates is holy.   So, according to you -- the Bible is NOT holy! Okay,

If God was involved with creating the Bible -- then how can it not be inerrant. Does God make mistakes?   Does God ever have an "Oops!" moment?   Crusty, if God was involved in creating the Bible -- then it has to be inerrant -- for God is inerrant.

So, what say you? Bible from God? Or, is the Bible from men? If the Bible is from men, then it is not the holy Bible.

Please give us a clear understanding of where YOU place the Bible -- with God or with men?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,   Bill
God wrote the Ten Commandments, and Jesus is quoted quite a bit. You don't believe that the Bible is inerrant - you ignore Jesus' teaching all the time. So, enough with your rhetorical questions and idiotic "logic".

So, Crusty, my Friend,

You tell us that God wrote the Ten Commandments. I agree

And, you tell us that Jesus is quoted quite a bit. Where is Jesus quoted? Can you explain that just a bit more?

So, let's go back to my original question: What part has God played in the creation of the Bible? Or was He involved in the creation of the Bible?

Is the Bible from God? OR, is the Bible from men?

If it is from men, then I agree that men can make mistakes. BUT, if the Bible is from God, if God caused the Bible to be created -- can God make mistakes? Can God be make errors? If God can make mistakes -- then, He is not God, for God is perfect.

So, once again just to be clear: Did God create the Bible -- OR -- did man create the Bible? OR was it some other god of this world who created the Bible.

Crusty, to you, WHAT IS THE BIBLE?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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7/5/1411:43 AM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

If you can't comprehend my explanation, just say so. Stop asking me the same questions over and over.

Just so you are absolutely clear on the matter, the Bible is not God.

Here's your Kleenex. The drool is strong in you, Padawan.

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7/5/1411:50 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Crusty, my Friend,

You tell me, "Just so you are absolutely clear on the matter, the Bible is not God."

Okay. BUT, is the Bible from God?

OR, is it only from men?

If from men, it can be full of errors.

If from God, how can a perfect God make errors?

So, which: Is the Bible from God -- OR -- from men?

Answer -- OR -- dance?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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7/5/1412:01 PM

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CrustyMacOld Faithful

The Bible was written, edited, and compiled by men. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you.

The errors are in your misinterpretation, and result from your belief that the Bible is inerrant and to be taken literally. Were you to take it literally, you would actually follow the teachings of Christ, you would have to believe that the earth is flat, you would stop eating pork, and you would never have gotten divorced. You don't take the Bible literally, so why do you believe it should be considered as such?

Your belief system is a big fat FAIL, but you refuse to accept that. Instead, you assume the position of Bible Banger, requiring logical fallacy, hypocrisy, and heresy to somehow bring the truth of the universe into alignment with your failed "theology".