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Hi to my Forum Friends,

On the Religion Forum over the years, there have often been discussions about the Rapture.  Most Conservative Christian believers, such as me, believe that the Rapture of the church, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ -- will occur "like a thief in the night" (imminency, i.e., that Jesus Christ will return, but, no one except God knows the time) and, then, in a short time after the Rapture, the seven year Tribulation will begin.

Our Liberal Christian brethren either deny the Rapture altogether (Roman Catholic, etc.) or believe that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation period (MidTrib) or that it will occur after the Tribulation (PostTrib).

We know that our Roman Catholic brethren deny the Rapture -- because it conflicts with their church's teaching of Purgatory, which cannot be supported from Scripture.

The two latter beliefs are also impossible to support from Scripture -- for if MidTrib, then that denies the imminency of His return for His church, i.e., the Rapture, as taught in Scripture.  If we follow the MidTrib clock, when the Tribulation begins -- just count 3 1/2 years and there is the Rapture, no imminency. 

 

And, if a PostTrib return, i.e., Rapture, is true -- how will the Bride of Christ attend the Wedding Feast of the Lamb -- if she is still on earth waiting for a PostTrib Rapture?  So, you see, a PreTrib Rapture is all that makes sense.

In the latest issue of The Berean Call newsletter, in the Q&A section, there is a question and answer which addresses this question very well.

 

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How Can You Believe In A Rapture And Resurrection

At The Beginning Of The Great Tribulation?
Dave Hunt, Tom McMahon - The Berean Call, August 2011 issue
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/9326


Question:   Christ said, "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."  In view of such Scriptures, how can you believe in a Rapture and Resurrection at the beginning of the Great Tribulation?   Doesn't Revelation 20:4-5 teach that the "first resurrection" takes place after the Battle of Armageddon?

Response:   Beware of teaching that is built on one isolated verse.  What do "first resurrection" and "last day" mean?  The answer can only be found in the context of all Scripture.  In John 5:28-29, Jesus spoke of two resurrections:


The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the [1] resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the [2] resurrection of da-m-nation.

 

Undoubtedly Revelation 20:4-5 refers to the resurrection of life.  That the reference is not to the resurrection of all believers, however, but only those martyred by Antichrist during the Great Tribulation, is clearly stated: "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark...."

Then what about Abraham, David, Peter, Paul, Spurgeon, Moody, and Christians who have died more recently, none of whom was slain by Antichrist?  When are they resurrected?  At the Rapture, as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 declares, "the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together...to meet the Lord in the air."  No mention of that in Revelation 20, so it must have already occurred -- another argument for a pretrib Rapture.

The only resurrection after Revelation 20:4-5 takes place 1000 years later and must be what Christ called "the resurrection of da-m-nation."  Those who are raised then are still "dead in trespasses and in sins" (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13): "And I saw the dead, small and  great, stand before God; and the books were opened...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the  books..." (Rev 20:12).  This is the Great White Throne Judgment of the lost.

As for Christians, they have already "appear[ed] before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10) right after the Rapture.   In Revelation 19:7-9, we read of "the marriage supper of the Lamb" involving, of course, His bride, the church (Eph 5:23-32).

When and how did she (the Bride of Christ) get to heaven?  Obviously, at the pretrib Rapture!  She is clothed in fine linen, white and clean (v. 8).  Next, Christ descends with "the armies which were in heaven...[also] clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (v. 14) to confront and destroy Antichrist at Armageddon.  Surely the church comprises that army.

Enoch prophesied that Christ would return to this earth "with ten thousands [i.e., an innumerable company] of his saints, to execute judgment" upon Antichrist and his followers (Jude 14-15).  Zechariah 14:4-5 states that when Christ comes to earth to rescue Israel and "His feet stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...all the saints" come with Him.  Surely these are not disembodied spirits waiting to be resurrected!  The saints who accompany Christ from heaven (Rev 19) to reign on earth must be in their glorified bodies  -- and they must have been taken to heaven previously in order to descend from there with Him at Armageddon.

That this resurrection in Revelation 20 involves only "the souls of them" who were martyred by Antichrist is a clear indication that all other saints have been previously resurrected.  Then why wait until after Armageddon for these martyrs to be raised?

We are told why.  Some of these same souls are seen earlier:


I saw under the altar the souls of them ...slain for the word of God...and it was said unto them, that they should  rest...until their fellow servants also...that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev 6:9-11)


Since all Great Tribulation martyrs are resurrected together -- and Antichrist kills believers to the very end -- their resurrection must await the end of Armageddon.  If the resurrection of believers who lived and died prior to the Tribulation took place seven years previously, why is the resurrection in Revelation 20 of those slain by Antichrist called "the first resurrection"?  Clearly, it is in order to show that these martyrs are part of that company which has already been resurrected, the church.  It specifically says that they "reign with him [Christ] a thousand years" (Rev 20:6) as do the saints of all ages.

What about Christ raising all believers "at the last day"?  This "last day" is surely not the 24-hour period in which these martyrs are raised, for there are many more days that follow.  The "last day" is a lengthy period of time called "the day of the Lord [God]" (Isa 2:12; Jer 46:10; Eze 30:3; Joel 1:15, etc.) or "the day of Christ" (1 Cor 1:8; Phil 1:10; 2 Thess 2:2).  It "comes like a thief in the night" when men are saying "peace and safety" (1 Thess 5:2-3) and do not expect Christ to return or God's judgment to fall but boast  that "all things continue as they were from the beginning" (2 Pet 3:3-4,10).

Clearly this "day" cannot begin with the Millennium, for it involves God's wrath upon mankind prior thereto.  Nor can it begin "as a thief" in the midst of the Tribulation, for by Revelation 6 the world is in ruins and men are crying out to the rocks to hide them from God's wrath.  It can only start at the beginning of the Tribulation with the Rapture and resurrection.  It must also last until the end of the Millennium and the destruction of the old universe, for Peter says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the  which the heavens shall pass away...the day of God, wherein the heavens...shall be dissolved...we...look for new heavens and a new  earth" (2 Pet 3:10-13).

 Bold, underline, and italic emphasis in this article is mine.

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I believe you will also find the main article in the August 2011 issue of The Berean Call newsletter very interesting.  It is titled "From  Oprah to Oz -- And Beyond."   You can read the full article at:  http://www.thebereancall.org/node/9322

Below is an excerpt to get you started


She (Oprah) then further identified the God to whom she referred: "I'm talking about the same one you're talking about.  I'm talking about Alpha and Omega, the Omniscient, the Omnipresent, the Ultimate Consciousness, the Source, the Force, the All of everything there is, the One and Only G-O-D"

If it's still not clear to you exactly who or what this "One and Only G-O-D" is, you're not alone.  All the commentaries that I've read regarding Oprah's farewell program have noted that reviewers also were confused about the deity to whom she paid homage.

What should be clear is that the "Jesus" and the "God" whom she describes are not the biblical Jesus and God.  But that may not be so clear for some -- especially those who consider themselves Christians and who think that Oprah is talking about the same Jesus in whom they believe.

 

To read other issues of The Berean Call visit the web site:  http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/index.php

And, to get a FREE subscription via snail mail -- while on that page, click on the big red SUBSCRIBE button on the top right of the page.

For over 40 years, Dave Hunt has been writing Christian apologetic books and speaking at churches and conferences.  In 1992, he joined forces with Tom McMahon -- who spent half his adult life in the Roman Catholic church before moving to the Protestant faith -- and the two of them founded and have been the movers behind The Berean Call, a nonprofit, tax-exempt corporation which exists to:  Alert believers, Exhort believers, Supply believers, Mobilize believers, and Impact the church of Jesus Christ with the necessity of trusting the Scriptures as the only rule of faith, practice, and a life pleasing to God.

Personally, I have been receiving and studying The Berean Call newsletter for many, many years -- and, God willing, one day I will be able to give back to that ministry, financially, for all they have given me through their writings.  But, that is not a requirement to receive and read this great Christian resource.

I will end with one qualification.  While I respect and have learned a great from Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon over the years, I do not always agree 100% with all they write.  But, to be honest, in the 24 years I have been a Christian, I have never met any person with whom I agree 100%.  Is that a fault with them -- or with me?  No, not really.  It just says that we are all human and, as such, we do err at times.  Only God is perfect.  The rest of us must learn to make allowances for one another.

In the same vein, let me say that, in the 24 years I have been a Christian -- I doubt, very seriously, there is anyone who has agreed with me 100%.  So, I ask you to also make allowances for me -- and to test everything I write against Scripture (Acts 17:11).

I will make this declaration.  When I share a writing from The Berean Call or any other source, it is because I do agree with what they have written -- or, I will insert a qualifying statement.   In this article from The Berean Call, we are on the same page.

I pray this is useful to you.  If so, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs.  Let's all keep sharing the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- until His imminent return.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The notion (as conceived in the current premillennialist concept of the "rapture") that there will be a resurrection of the righteous dead  separate in time from the resurrection of the unrighteous dead is a false teaching.  In support of this, I submit the following words from John 5: 

 

 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 28Marvel not at this: for the hour [ "the hour," which is clearly the same "hour" for both the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead] is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ["all that are in the graves" means ALL of them--the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead]

 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of d a m nation.

 

Citing these same verses, Bill says, "In John 5:28-29, Jesus spoke of two resurrections."  What Bill leaves out is that Jesus spoke of a resurrection in "the hour.. in the which all that are in the graves" would hear His voice--the "hour" being clearly the same time for both classes.  No, John 5 is not describing two widely-separated resurrection events. It makes no sense to interpret it that way.

 

The description of the resurrection of the righteous dead in I Thessalonians 4 ( so often cited by those who believe in a singular resurrection of the righteous, with the unrighteous "left behind" to await some future separate judgment),  was not intended by the writer (Paul) to be a comprehensive description of the resurrection of the dead.  As is clearly discerned from the context, the apostle was responding not to some request for general information about the events accompanying the resurrection.  He was providing comfort to those who were in need of knowledge about those who had died in Christ and in hope.  Here is what he said by way of introducing his account of the state of the righteous dead:

 

I Thess. 4

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first....

 

In this passage, Paul did not address the resurrection and judgment of the unrighteous dead because that was not the subject of concern by his inquirers in the Thessalonian church.  

 

The "voice" of the Lord in John 5:28 and the "shout" of the Lord in I Thess. 4:16 are obviously the same.  That "voice" and that "shout" proclaim the same event, the second and final coming of Christ, when  the redeemed will arise to the "resurrection of life" and the unrighteous shall come forth to the "resurrection of ****ation."  Judgment will be executed upon both classes and that judgment will be final.

 

The concept of the "rapture" as taught by today's premillennialists simply can not be squared with the description  in John 5 of the CONCURRENT resurrection and judgment (in the same "hour") of the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead.  The notions of some later third coming of Christ and some later  "Great White Throne Judgment" separate from the return of Christ and the judgment described by the Lord Himself in John 5  require all too much scripture twisting to be credible to any serious Bible student attempting to "rightly divide the word of truth." 


The Bible clearly teaches that the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead will be resurrected at the same time.  The ultimate eternal fates of the evil and the good will then have been irrevocably determined, leaving no need for any subsequent resurrections or judgments.

Last edited by Contendah
quote:   Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

If the Bible "clearly" taught anything there'd be no need for threads like these.


Hi Robust,

 

Since God gave all men the gift of "free will" -- there will always be those atheists who are spiritually blind and will continue to throw trash and mud into the clear, clean Living Waters of God's Word.  So, there will always be a need for Christians to share the Gospel to, in effect, filter the wormwood from the Truth for those who are new in the faith or who are beginning to seek the Truth. 

 

So, my Friend, you just keep doing your leader's bidding and keep throwing in the trash -- and, we Christians will continue to do our God's will and filter you out.

 

God bless, have wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Contendah,

 

My original post shows, from Scripture why I believe in the PreTrib Rapture.  However, since I have no idea where you are coming from -- you and I cannot have a dialogue.   You see, I do not know if you are quoting from a Bible -- or from a Richard Dawkin's take on the Bible. 

 

And, since you are ashamed to tell us if you are a Christian believer or not -- how can we have a dialogue?   We do need a level playing field -- even if your team wears Atheist Black.  At least then we both could know what to expect from the other.  But, when you hide behind a lot of bluster (which is typical of the atheist team) and will not even tell us about yourself; how can the two of us have a discussion?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Matthew 24:29-31 ASV

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Gee Bill, it's pretty clear to me what Winston is saying he believes. I can tell by the part he put in bold text. Immediately after the tribulation...and they shall gather his elect from the four winds. That pretty much says it all.

 

And for possibly the first time since he joined the forums, I agree with him.

Originally Posted by O No!:

Gee Bill, it's pretty clear to me what Winston is saying he believes. I can tell by the part he put in bold text. Immediately after the tribulation...and they shall gather his elect from the four winds. That pretty much says it all.

 

And for possibly the first time since he joined the forums, I agree with him.

---------------------------

Thats right O No, the numbers just keep growing

 

.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Winston,

 

That is a good start -- but, you stopped short.  You posted the Scripture passage -- and, then, for whatever reason -- forgot to tell us what it means.  But, I am sure you will come on back and tell us more about that passage and what it says to you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

It pretty well speaks for itself. First, the tribulation. Then, the rapture. And it's the red-letter words of Jesus. 

Hi Winston,

When I questioned the fact that you only posted the Scripture passage from Matthew 24:29-31 -- but gave no explanation, O No responds, "Gee Bill, it's pretty clear to me what Winston is saying he believes.  I can tell by the part he put in bold text.  Immediately after the tribulation...and they shall gather his elect from the four winds.  That pretty much says it all."

And, you reply, "It pretty well speaks for itself.  First, the tribulation.  Then, the rapture.  And it's the red-letter words of Jesus."

Yes, this passage is the words of Jesus Christ.  But, what is He telling us?  All Scripture must agree -- or we have the wrong interpretation.

You leave out a few very important events.  Assuming the Tribulation does happen -- and, THEN, the Rapture -- where is the Bride of Christ, the church, during the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9)?  Is there going to be a wedding WITHOUT the Bride?   Since we know that Revelation 19 tells us that the Wedding Feast of the Lamb occurs -- and, then, His Second Coming; how did He have a wedding without His bride?

And, before the Bride can be wed to the Groom, Jesus Christ -- she must be prepared.  We read in Revelation 19:7-8, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His Bride has made herself readyIt was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

So, here we read that the Bride of Christ, the church, must prepare herself for the Groom.  How is this accomplished?  First, the Bride has to be in heaven with the Groom; second, the Bride must have already stood before Christ in judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Peter 5:4) at the Bema Seat Judgment, or Believer's Judgment.  Until the Bride has stood at this judgment;  there is no way she can be dressed in fine linens and prepared to wed her Groom.

How can any of this happen IF the Bride, the church, is still on earth during the Tribulation?

So, obviously the Scripture passage found in Matthew 24:29-31 MUST be speaking of His Second Coming, when He will return to earth in glory and establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

This is shown in this passage when it says, "after the Tribulation" and is affirmed when we are told, in this passage, of all the events of wrath occurring -- which we know from Revelation will only occur during the seven year Tribulation.  And, it is confirmed when we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and  they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

At the Rapture Christ will come IN the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18), not to the earth, i.e., His Second Coming.  Only the believers, the church, will see and experience this event -- and the rest of the world, the secular world, will be wondering and speculating about where those billions of people went.  They suddenly disappeared -- to where?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the  Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up   
(harpazo, rapiemur, rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.   Therefore comfort one another with these words."

The Rapture has to occur BEFORE the Tribulation -- for during that seven years, according to the Bible, the church will stand before Christ in the Believer's Judgment, be given the clean white linen robes of His righteousness, and made ready for her Groom.  Then, the Wedding -- and, at the end of the seven years -- His Second Coming as described in Matthew 24:29-31.

Matthew 24:29-31 (nkjv), "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

What does this passage mean when it tells us, " . . .and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of  heaven to the other"?

Who will be "His elect" who will be gathered?  It will be the believers who survive the seven year Tribulation and are still on earth.

At the end of the seven year Tribulation, there will be believers (sheep) and non-believers (goats) who have survived the horrible Tribulation.  One of the first things to happen after Christ returns to earth will be the "Sheep and Goat Judgment" (Matthew 25:31-46).  Christ will say to those on His right, the sheep, ". . . inherit the kingdom prepared for you" (Matt 25:34).  But, to the non-believers,  the goats, He will send ". . .away into eternal punishment"  (Matt 25:46).

The sheep, i.e., those believers who survive the Tribulation, will enter His 1000 year Millennial Reign on earth in their mortal bodies --  and will continue to marry and have children.  Those of us who have been raptured, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints, will share His Millennial Reign, His perfect Theocracy, with the mortal believers who survived the Tribulation.

One more solid piece of evidence that Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of His Second Coming and not the Rapture is found in Matthew 24:36 which tells us, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

In other words, His coming in the clouds to Rapture His church is IMMINENT, i.e., a moment no one knows, but, which could happen at any moment.

If the Rapture, His coming for His Bride, would happen during (MidTrib or PreWrath) the Tribulation -- or after (PostTrib) the Tribulation -- everyone will know when He is coming.   In that case, there would be no IMMINENCY.  We would all know exactly when He will return.

 

This cannot be for His coming to Rapture His church IS imminent.  And, once again, this is why the passage in Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of His Second Coming -- not the Rapture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

If the Bible "clearly" taught anything there'd be no need for threads like these.


Hi Robust,

 

Since God gave all men the gift of "free will" -- there will always be those atheists who are spiritually blind and will continue to throw trash and mud into the clear, clean Living Waters of God's Word.  So, there will always be a need for Christians to share the Gospel to, in effect, filter the wormwood from the Truth for those who are new in the faith or who are beginning to seek the Truth. 

 

So, my Friend, you just keep doing your leader's bidding and keep throwing in the trash -- and, we Christians will continue to do our God's will and filter you out.

 

God bless, have wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

===

I wasn't talking about myself or atheists at all.

 

I was pointing out that Christians vehemently and fundamentally disagree with each other over what the Bible supposedly "clearly" says. What a joke. You guys have literally murdered and tortured one another over what is "clearly" taught in your bible. The "clear, clean Living Waters of God's Word" run crimson with the blood of other Christians.

 

Atheists have nothing to do with this, except to point out the nauseating hypocrisy, as always. If your god was great and the Bible was clear, there'd be no disagreement between Christians who are "spiritually" sighted and imbued by the power of the Holy Spirit...

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Contendah,

 

My original post shows, from Scripture why I believe in the PreTrib Rapture.  However, since I have no idea where you are coming from -- you and I cannot have a dialogue.   You see, I do not know if you are quoting from a Bible -- or from a Richard Dawkin's take on the Bible. 

 

And, since you are ashamed to tell us if you are a Christian believer or not -- how can we have a dialogue?   We do need a level playing field -- even if your team wears Atheist Black.  At least then we both could know what to expect from the other.  But, when you hide behind a lot of bluster (which is typical of the atheist team) and will not even tell us about yourself; how can the two of us have a discussion?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

*******

 

For the record, I AM a "Christian believer," although that term seems redundant, since there is no such thing as a "Christian non-believer." 

 

I definitely do NOT hold with atheism.

 

As to my sources, if you have read my post, above, you should be able to figure out that I quoted from the Bible, specifically from the Gospel of John and the book of I Thessalonians. As to the interpretive portions of my post, that is entirely my product, not relying on Dawkins or anyone else.  The "take" is mine.

 

I am not sure what you regard as "bluster" but if you choose to explain that, I suggest that you first look up the definition of that word and then explain how anything I have posted in response to you equates to "bluster."  I suggest that you make a better effort to respond to the actual substance of what I posted above rather than attempting to besmirch it with the accusation that I am submitting "bluster."

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Contendah,

 

My original post shows, from Scripture why I believe in the PreTrib Rapture.  However, since I have no idea where you are coming from -- you and I cannot have a dialogue.   You see, I do not know if you are quoting from a Bible -- or from a Richard Dawkin's take on the Bible. 

 

And, since you are ashamed to tell us if you are a Christian believer or not -- how can we have a dialogue?   We do need a level playing field -- even if your team wears Atheist Black.  At least then we both could know what to expect from the other.  But, when you hide behind a lot of bluster (which is typical of the atheist team) and will not even tell us about yourself; how can the two of us have a discussion?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

*******

 

For the record, I AM a "Christian believer," although that term seems redundant, since there is no such thing as a "Christian non-believer." 

 

I definitely do NOT hold with atheism.

 

As to my sources, if you have read my post, above, you should be able to figure out that I quoted from the Bible, specifically from the Gospel of John and the book of I Thessalonians. As to the interpretive portions of my post, that is entirely my product, not relying on Dawkins or anyone else.  The "take" is mine.

 

I am not sure what you regard as "bluster" but if you choose to explain that, I suggest that you first look up the definition of that word and then explain how anything I have posted in response to you equates to "bluster."  I suggest that you make a better effort to respond to the actual substance of what I posted above rather than attempting to besmirch it with the accusation that I am submitting "bluster."

---------------------------------------------

Contendah, You aren't from around here are you?

 

Iv

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