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From the Smithsonian Magazine, October 2010::

 

<<<<But the Puritan fathers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony did not countenance tolerance of opposing religious views. Their “city upon a hill” was a theocracy that brooked no dissent, religious or political.

 

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The most famous dissidents within the Puritan community, Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson, were banished following disagreements over theology and policy. From Puritan Boston’s earliest days, Catholics (“Papists&rdquo were anathema and were banned from the colonies, along with other non-Puritans. Four Quakers were hanged inBostonbetween 1659 and 1661 for persistently returning to the city to stand up for their beliefs.

 

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Future President James Madison stepped into the breach. In a carefully argued essay titled “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments,” the soon-to-be father of the Constitution eloquently laid out reasons why the state had no business supporting Christian instruction. Signed by some 2,000 Virginians, Madison’s argument became a fundamental piece of American political philosophy, a ringing endorsement of the secular state that “should be as familiar to students of American history as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution,” as Susan Jacoby has written in Freethinkers, her excellent history of American secularism.

Among Madison’s 15 points was his declaration that “the Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every...man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an inalienable right.”

 

Madison also made a point that any believer of any religion should understand: that the government sanction of a religion was, in essence, a threat to religion. “Who does not see,” he wrote, “that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?”Madison was writing from his memory of Baptist ministers being arrested in his native Virginia.

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As for Adams and Jefferson, they would disagree vehemently over policy, but on the question of religious freedom they were united. “In their seventies,” Jacoby writes, “with a friendship that had survived serious political conflicts, Adams and Jefferson could look back with satisfaction on what they both considered their greatest achievement—their role in establishing a secular government whose legislators would never be required, or permitted, to rule on the legality of theological views.”>>>

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/...e.html#ixzz2YIictY12 
 


 

I yam what I yam and that's all I yam--but it is enough!

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Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

Answer me THIS please:  From WHOM did Thomas Jefferson state that ALL men received their unalienable rights?

____

Go back and actually READ the article I posted.   Here is a segment that casts light on where Jefferson stood on religious freedom and diversity: The bill referred to in the first sentence was on in which Patrick Henry proposed  state support for “teachers of the Christian religion.”


 "After long debate, Patrick Henry’s bill was defeated, with the opposition outnumbering supporters 12 to 1. Instead, the Virginia legislature took up Jefferson’s plan for the separation of church and state. In 1786, the Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom, modified somewhat from Jefferson’s original draft, became law. The act is one of three accomplishments Jefferson included on his tombstone, along with writing the Declaration and founding the University of Virginia. (He omitted his presidency of the United States.) After the bill was passed, Jefferson proudly wrote that the law “meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew, the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”


I readily, unequivocally, and unhesitatingly affirm that Jefferson  held the view that the rights of "ALL men" derived from their CREATOR.  "ALL men" includes men in those nations where the prevailing religion is other than Christianity.  His use of the term "Creator"  in no way establishes that Jefferson was endorsing the establishment of a Christian nation.  It is presumptuous and naive to assert otherwise, given the body of Jefferson's writings, which consistently both recognize a Creator and reject any concept of a state religion.  Jefferson, in fact,  personally had a preference for Unitarianism and confidently predicted that it would become the prevailing religion of this nation. 

Dogs,

 

Jefferson and Paine believed in a Creator, however vague.  Their Creator set the universe into motion and then retired.
Their Creator was in no sense Yahweh, nor the father of Jesus, nor indeed Jesus himself.  They can be forgiven for assuming a Creator in the infancy of science.

 

Let's discuss the difference between the Declaration and the Constitution.  If you think the Constitution was based on the Bible, you only need to read the first Commandment and the First Amendment.

 

First Commandment:  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
First Amendment:  Choose any god you want, or none.

 

Done. QED.  Gave over.  America is not a Christian nation.

 

DF 

Ben Franklin, upon his first visit to England, remarked upon how much more secular England was then the colonies.  Tocqueville also made several observations upon religion and religious organizations in the newly minted USA. He found it more religious than Europe, in a positive fashion.  And, the organizations, both religious and secular, an integral part of the new nation.

Originally Posted by direstraits:

Ben Franklin, upon his first visit to England, remarked upon how much more secular England was then the colonies.  Tocqueville also made several observations upon religion and religious organizations in the newly minted USA. He found it more religious than Europe, in a positive fashion.  And, the organizations, both religious and secular, an integral part of the new nation.

-----

England did not have separation of church and state; it had a state church, known as (guess what?) the Church of England. The titular head of the state was the head of the church, a relationship that continues to this day.  England today is about 95% secular in terms of the outlook of its citizenry, notwithstanding its retaining a state church.  By contrast, the U.S, which has no state church and which in fact has a constitutionally-established separation of church and state , continues to be one of the most religious of nations. A people can be a religious people without co-opting the authority or resources of government to advance religion.

 

Any of you who are inclined to question what I have posted about church and state in England  are invited to go to the Official Web Site of the British Monarchy for enlightenment:

 

http://www.royal.gov.uk/Monarc...ChurchofEngland.aspx

 

<<<The Sovereign holds the title 'Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England'.

 

There are many examples of the relationship between the established Church and the State.

Archbishops and bishops are appointed by The Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who considers the names selected by a Church Commission. They take an oath of allegiance to The Queen on appointment and may not resign without Royal authority.

The connection between Church and State is also symbolised by the fact that the 'Lords Spiritual' (consisting of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and 24 diocesan bishops) sit in the House of Lords. Parish priests also take an oath of allegiance to The Queen.>>>

 

There is much more of interest in the link.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

Answer me THIS please:  From WHOM did Thomas Jefferson state that ALL men received their unalienable rights?

____

Go back and actually READ the article I posted.   Here is a segment that casts light on where Jefferson stood on religious freedom and diversity: The bill referred to in the first sentence was on in which Patrick Henry proposed  state support for “teachers of the Christian religion.”


 "After long debate, Patrick Henry’s bill was defeated, with the opposition outnumbering supporters 12 to 1. Instead, the Virginia legislature took up Jefferson’s plan for the separation of church and state. In 1786, the Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom, modified somewhat from Jefferson’s original draft, became law. The act is one of three accomplishments Jefferson included on his tombstone, along with writing the Declaration and founding the University of Virginia. (He omitted his presidency of the United States.) After the bill was passed, Jefferson proudly wrote that the law “meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew, the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”


I readily, unequivocally, and unhesitatingly affirm that Jefferson  held the view that the rights of "ALL men" derived from their CREATOR.  "ALL men" includes men in those nations where the prevailing religion is other than Christianity.  His use of the term "Creator"  in no way establishes that Jefferson was endorsing the establishment of a Christian nation.  It is presumptuous and naive to assert otherwise, given the body of Jefferson's writings, which consistently both recognize a Creator and reject any concept of a state religion.  Jefferson, in fact,  personally had a preference for Unitarianism and confidently predicted that it would become the prevailing religion of this nation. 

==============

If memory serves me right, the original passage in the Declaration was "endowed by God" which Ben Franklin struck out and put "Creator".

The Founders had seen the corruption evident in a relationship between church and state, after all , it had barely been 100 years since the Religious Wars in Europe brought on by the Calvinist had caused the death of the tens of thousands. Worse yet, as Contenda mentions , in England, as in most of the European monarchies, the king was considered divinely given power, and the Founders wanted absolutely nothing to do with " God ordained kings ".

They wanted no church state. Most were Christians, but seldom attended church, some, like Jefferson were deist. All were students of the Enlightenment , and most were Freemasons where in the Masonic halls , they were free to discuss the formation of a new nation based upon the Masonic concepts of equality of all, and the rather liberal view of deity. They formed the government based on the Enlightenment where reason rather than religious doctrine would be the law of the land,  freedom and equality from the Masonic principals.

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by direstraits:

Ben Franklin, upon his first visit to England, remarked upon how much more secular England was then the colonies.  Tocqueville also made several observations upon religion and religious organizations in the newly minted USA. He found it more religious than Europe, in a positive fashion.  And, the organizations, both religious and secular, an integral part of the new nation.

-----

England did not have separation of church and state; it had a state church, known as (guess what?) the Church of England. The titular head of the state was the head of the church, a relationship that continues to this day.  England today is about 95% secular in terms of the outlook of its citizenry, notwithstanding its retaining a state church.  By contrast, the U.S, which has no state church and which in fact has a constitutionally-established separation of church and state , continues to be one of the most religious of nations. A people can be a religious people without co-opting the authority or resources of government to advance religion.

 

Any of you who are inclined to question what I have posted about church and state in England  are invited to go to the Official Web Site of the British Monarchy for enlightenment:

 

http://www.royal.gov.uk/Monarc...ChurchofEngland.aspx

 

<<<The Sovereign holds the title 'Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England'.

 

There are many examples of the relationship between the established Church and the State.

Archbishops and bishops are appointed by The Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who considers the names selected by a Church Commission. They take an oath of allegiance to The Queen on appointment and may not resign without Royal authority.

The connection between Church and State is also symbolised by the fact that the 'Lords Spiritual' (consisting of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and 24 diocesan bishops) sit in the House of Lords. Parish priests also take an oath of allegiance to The Queen.>>>

 

There is much more of interest in the link.

 

 

 

Yes, Franklin remarked upon the actions of the populace, rather than government.  For instance, less church attendance and less "blue law" type enforcement In the UK, but rain fell on them and their cattle grew fat , just as in the colonies. 

 

Of course, shortly after than he joined the Hell Fire club.

 

The founders desired government that neither enforced a state religion, nor was antithetical to religion. 

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler:

Contendah, what do you think caused the planet to warm up during the time between previous ice ages? Could it possibly have anything to do with that giant ball of burning gasses at the center of the solar system? Are the cavemen to blame then as we are today?

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Now this is getting truly off topic...

..

 

 

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