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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
I've seen a cats EAT ONE OF THE WEAKEST OF IT'S KITTENS FOR SURVIVAL. How many humans do you know have even the natural instinct to do that, much less it be overridden by COMMON SENSE, LOGICAL PROGRESSION OF THOUGHT WHICH ANIMALS IN THE WILD DO NOT POSSESS.


Peter,

I am not an atheist, although at times I may give the impression that I am. I am a seeker. Open to all. But I'll answer your question with just two words.

DONNER PARTY

In terms of pure survival none of us know what steps we would take to overcome the adversity that confronts us. It is very easy for us to sit here in the comforts of our home and content that we would never resort to such an action. "I would rather die first". But would we? When it comes right down to it, life or death, what steps would you take to stay alive?

JMHO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qde2gBphLso


Tales of human survival under dire circumstances never cease to capture our attention. Just last week, the world watched as one-by-one, the Chilean miners were brought up to the surface and reunited with their loved ones. Coincidentally, the miners' story of survival ended exactly thirty-eight years from the day another South American survival story was just beginning. History retells this tale in a new special called I Am Alive: Surviving the Andes Plane Crash.

Whether you were around in 1972 when the news broke that a group of rugby players had survived a plane crash and 72 days in the freezing cold Andes mountains, or you’ve seen the other documentaries, read the books or saw the movie Alive starring Ethan Hawke, there’s a good chance you’ve heard of the story. On October 13, 1972, a charter plane carrying a rugby team and some of their friends and family was headed toward Chile when it crashed in the Andes mountains. 45 people were on the plane, only 16 survived the ordeal. It’s a fascinating story and one that’s sparked much discussion over the years not only because it can be considered a miracle that people could survive in sub-zero temperatures for more than two months with virtually no supplies and only a broken airplane fuselage as shelter, but also because the survivors had to eat the bodies of the dead in order to survive.
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
But I'll answer your question with just two words.

DONNER PARTY

In terms of pure survival none of us know what steps we would take to overcome the adversity that confronts us. It is very easy for us to sit here in the comforts of our home and content that we would never resort to such an action. "I would rather die first". But would we? When it comes right down to it, life or death, what steps would you take to stay alive?

JMHO



LOL! Do not meddle in the affairs of atheists, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

that's like kicking a puppy


HEY!

Watch that sh!t, cowboy..... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qde2gBphLso


Tales of human survival under dire circumstances never cease to capture our attention. Just last week, the world watched as one-by-one, the Chilean miners were brought up to the surface and reunited with their loved ones. Coincidentally, the miners' story of survival ended exactly thirty-eight years from the day another South American survival story was just beginning. History retells this tale in a new special called I Am Alive: Surviving the Andes Plane Crash.

Whether you were around in 1972 when the news broke that a group of rugby players had survived a plane crash and 72 days in the freezing cold Andes mountains, or you’ve seen the other documentaries, read the books or saw the movie Alive starring Ethan Hawke, there’s a good chance you’ve heard of the story. On October 13, 1972, a charter plane carrying a rugby team and some of their friends and family was headed toward Chile when it crashed in the Andes mountains. 45 people were on the plane, only 16 survived the ordeal. It’s a fascinating story and one that’s sparked much discussion over the years not only because it can be considered a miracle that people could survive in sub-zero temperatures for more than two months with virtually no supplies and only a broken airplane fuselage as shelter, but also because the survivors had to eat the bodies of the dead in order to survive.


Those ya'll are talking about are EXTREME EXAMPLES.. not the norm. Those things are everyday occurances in the wild. However, we as humans view that as horrid events. Why? Why ONLY HUMANS?? That's the question. NSNS and Uno talk so much about scientific evidence for this, or you gotta be able to test that... What made humans THE ONLY creature to gain superior levels of common sense, logical progression of thought? ALL animals in the wild, birds, lions, tigers, dogs, fish... They all follow primal instinct alone. Why is that? Why only humans? Out of the billions of species of life that has wandered the earth at one point or another, why only humans to develop this level of intellect and common sense which can override primal instinct?
quote:
Those ya'll are talking about are EXTREME EXAMPLES.. not the norm. Those things are everyday occurances in the wild. However, we as humans view that as horrid events. Why? Why ONLY HUMANS?? That's the question. NSNS and Uno talk so much about scientific evidence for this, or you gotta be able to test that... What made humans THE ONLY creature to gain superior levels of common sense, logical progression of thought? ALL animals in the wild, birds, lions, tigers, dogs, fish... They all follow primal instinct alone. Why is that? Why only humans? Out of the billions of species of life that has wandered the earth at one point or another, why only humans to develop this level of intellect and common sense which can override primal instinct?

Who knows why. Who really cares why. It is what it is.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
...Why is that? Why only humans? Out of the billions of species of life that has wandered the earth at one point or another, why only humans to develop this level of intellect and common sense which can override primal instinct?


The answer keeps staring you in the face. It's evolution.
You also ask these questions ignoring the fact that there have been many different types of the human species. All but one type have gone extinct. Most, if not all, of these ancestors and evolutionary relatives were presumably smarter than any other animal during it's time. There is no evidence, that I'm aware of, of any of these human types engaging in the behaviors that you only ascribe to modern humans. So let me ask you a question. Why did God allow all the other human lines of his creation to go extinct?
Ahhh, but Peter you said yourself for survival the cat ate the kitten. So we are talking only about cases of "survival". Would it be the norm for the cat to eat her kitten if other food was available?

So Peter, it begs the question.....if you were stranded in the Andes with Slim and Puppy and no hope of immediate rescue, no food and for purely survival purposes only-who would you eat first?

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by A. Robustus:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
...Why is that? Why only humans? Out of the billions of species of life that has wandered the earth at one point or another, why only humans to develop this level of intellect and common sense which can override primal instinct?


The answer keeps staring you in the face. It's evolution.
You also ask these questions ignoring the fact that there have been many different types of the human species. All but one type have gone extinct. Most, if not all, of these ancestors and evolutionary relatives were presumably smarter than any other animal during it's time. There is no evidence, that I'm aware of, of any of these human types engaging in the behaviors that you only ascribe to modern humans. So let me ask you a question. Why did God allow all the other human lines of his creation to go extinct?


The God question is invalid on it's face and has no merit. You aren't asking as if you really want to know, you are asking because you don't understand the Bible or God's creation.

As for evolution... that doesn't explain anything. That's not scientific facts which explain why humans are so different. Unless you are speaking of the evolution of society, in which case that would be valid and easily traced. As for inellect, logic, and emotion, where is the scientific proof that it just happened to humans? That's my point. To be an atheist means you don't believe in a soul that resides in every human being. So there has to be something else under your belief system that makes us the way we are. I believe God created us, thus instilling us with the qualities that make us the top of the food chain. What caused this tremendous leap in intelligence based off of only scientific fact?
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
Ahhh, but Peter you said yourself for survival the cat ate the kitten. So we are talking only about cases of "survival". Would it be the norm for the cat to eat her kitten if other food was available?

So Peter, it begs the question.....if you were stranded in the Andes with Slim and Puppy and no hope of immediate rescue, no food and for purely survival purposes only-who would you eat first?

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin


Actually it was only for survival to the cat. It had the kittens under the steps on a porch. It could have easily walked out and eaten from the bowl it had every day of it's life. Yet, intead it chose to eat one of it's kittens. If I'm stranded with those you mentioned, number one, it's different because they aren't my children, and number two, if there is a McDonalds just down the way, I'd choose to go to the McDonalds. Wink
Ahh...Peter. True, they are not your children, but we see cases repeately of mothers taking the life of their child. Albeit, suffering from post partum for the most part. Yet, how do we know whether or not your cat was suffering from post partum? Impossible question to answer I know, but when I get home tonight I'll ask my dog. He has spent a lifetime studying cats and I'm quite sure he could offer us some insights as to their behavior.
Big Grin

But again, you are stranded, no food, no hope of rescue, no McDonald's down the road, purely self preservation-who would you eat first?

As for me, no way I'm getting on a plane with puppy that has charted a course over the Andes. He's already stated he thinks I would be quite tasty with ketchup.
Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by bowman:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
bowman, while religion is certainly a "worldview" atheism is not.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I never mentioned religion, but worldview. A worldview is the framework from which we view reality and make sense of life and the world. Geisler lists seven historical worldviews: atheism, deism, theism, pantheism, panentheism, finite godism, and polytheism. ..... To me, it would be interesting to see what affects that worldview has on a person's life as compared to a deist, theist, or pantheist..


"Geisler" appears to be fundamentalist. Fundamentalists seem to have a fixation on putting atheism in the same philosophical "bucket" as other religions. i believe this is an attempt to make atheism just as full of foible and folly as any other religion. that just doesn't work on a number of levels.

demonstration: you are a christian, I presume, with a christian worldview. from that, i can make some very general assumptions about you without knowing you at all such as: you believe in the sanctity of life and of marriage. you believe you are going to meet loved ones when you ascend into heaven. you are probably a republican. when you have a moral dilemma, you pray to your god for guidance. you try to emulate jesus as much as you can and, like all sinners, constantly fall from grace.

not all of those will apply to you, of course, but many have to apply or you would not be a christian.

i'm an atheist. now please tell me what areas of my life are informed by an "atheistic worldview"? you are required to pretend you know nothing else about me except that i do not believe in gods.

if atheists have a "worldview" then you should be able to predict my stance on a number of topics.


I don't agree that Atheism in and of itself is a worldview, but surely you would agree that if a person is an Atheist, it would greatly affect their worldview?
Well, they'd need to fill out a questionaire and possibly do a little song and dance first...bahahaha...well?! There's no entertainment there either, right? How long might you have to hang out with the one that's left? Wait! I have a feeling that being the smallest, I might be first on the dinner menu. Eeker

May I have a firearm atop my mountain please? Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
What made humans THE ONLY creature to gain superior levels of common sense, logical progression of thought? ALL animals in the wild, birds, lions, tigers, dogs, fish... They all follow primal instinct alone.


peter, this is simply not true.

stupid animals #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yoeg&feature=related

stupid animals #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Kf3E&feature=related

Stupid animal #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...wEUY&feature=related

Stupid #4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihUGT7MdDB4

sorry, lots of elephant things here but his is interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...NvDw&feature=related

and one more famous one. if you havne't seen it, you will cry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIsHtEn_gI

and here is what happens when a christian tries to test gods will. put this under stupid human #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Lquc&feature=channel

peter, the facts have been in for a very long time. humans are just another animals with a slightly higher level of "intelligence" as defined by us humans.
Unob, with the exception of that last one, I loved those videos. I am familiar with how elephants care for one another, but that first one with the leopard is AMAZING!

The last video...I guess he skipped over that "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." verse...another example of someone calling themselves a 'Christ'ian but disregarding what Christ taught, which effectively nullifies their claim. Their deliberate actions prove they do not 'strive to be Christlike', which is the meaning of Christian. He didn't just falter like we all do by, for example, getting ticked off in traffic; he confronted a lion. He's a nut.
Slightly higher level of intelligence??? LMAO!!!

yeah, the leopard thing was sweet... awwwwww... but for every one time you see that you see 100 times the leopard eats the baby monkey.

The lion reunion didn't make me cry, but it wasn't all that suprising. Cats are well known for their ability to be domesticated. He was just a big cat. He was raised by those humans, thus, not shocking that he remembered them... also, it wouldnt have been shocking if he killed them where they stood. lol

And yes... that guy was an idiot. But once again, for the couple of morons that would do that, there are millions of folks who would use logical progression of thought and NOT do that.

NONE OF THAT PROVES ANYTHING!! lol

Now, if you showed me that leopard build a foster home for orphaned animals in the wild, NOW WE'D BE TALKIN! lol

If that elephant pulled out some paddles and shocked that dead one, then performed a tracheotomy so it could breath... NOW WE'D BE TALKIN!! LOL

These vidoes do more to prove the MASSIVE gap between humans and animals in the wild than to draw them closer as you obviously think they do.

Once again Uno... This is the EXACT OPPOSITE STANCE YOU WERE USING IN THE ZOOPHILLIA DEBATE... EXACT OPPOSITE!! lol

That was the point I was making then, and only now does it truely get the light shined on it. You stretch your belief so that it covers whatever the topic is, but in the end, you have no proven facts of science as to why humans are so vastly superior to animals. In the end, it's all smoke and mirrors you are trying.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

if atheists have a "worldview" then you should be able to predict my stance on a number of topics.


I can make very general assumptions about you as well. You may view life as important, but not sacred. You believe man can define marriage as he pleases. You see death as the end of life, therefore there are no loved ones or heaven. Political affiliation is based on whatever feels right. When you have a moral dilemma, you let your conscience be your guide. You try to live the best you can, but shortcomings can be easily rationalized because it's just the natural order of things. It's just who you are.

Now, I know nothing about you. Some of these may apply to you, or I may be way off the mark. I may be completely off base when I say I believe there's a void in your life you can't seem to fill; that there are nagging questions about life that knowledge and science can't answer; and that there are times when you feel completely alone. I'm not saying this to upset you or offend you. I hope that's not the case. I'm not saying this with a condescending attitude, but with all humility. I am saying this because I'm genuinely concerned for you and I hope you read this in that context.
quote:
Originally posted by bowman:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

if atheists have a "worldview" then you should be able to predict my stance on a number of topics.


I can make very general assumptions about you as well. You may view life as important, but not sacred. You believe man can define marriage as he pleases. You see death as the end of life, therefore there are no loved ones or heaven. Political affiliation is based on whatever feels right. When you have a moral dilemma, you let your conscience be your guide. You try to live the best you can, but shortcomings can be easily rationalized because it's just the natural order of things. It's just who you are.

Now, I know nothing about you. Some of these may apply to you, or I may be way off the mark. I may be completely off base when I say I believe there's a void in your life you can't seem to fill; that there are nagging questions about life that knowledge and science can't answer; and that there are times when you feel completely alone. I'm not saying this to upset you or offend you. I hope that's not the case. I'm not saying this with a condescending attitude, but with all humility. I am saying this because I'm genuinely concerned for you and I hope you read this in that context.
You just described every human on earth at one time or the other.
quote:
Originally posted by bowman:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

if atheists have a "worldview" then you should be able to predict my stance on a number of topics.


I can make very general assumptions about you as well. You may view life as important, but not sacred. You believe man can define marriage as he pleases. You see death as the end of life, therefore there are no loved ones or heaven. Political affiliation is based on whatever feels right. When you have a moral dilemma, you let your conscience be your guide. You try to live the best you can, but shortcomings can be easily rationalized because it's just the natural order of things. It's just who you are.


world·view (wûrldvy) n.
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

bowman, this appears to be an astrologer's approach to human nature. all those attributes you named could apply to just about anyone, even Christians.

if you must know, i have a few worldviews as they are defined above. the most prevalent is a skeptical/scientific worldview. it is through this worldview that i came to question my religion. i use skepticism quite often in as many areas of my life as possible. i question everything. so you are necessarily correct about many of the attributes you listed. no, i do not believe marriage is sacred. although i used to be a defender of the institution of marriage, i could never find a way to satisfactorily remove the right for two consenting adults to love each other. yes, i let my conscious be my guide when faced with a moral dilemma but so does every other human on the planet. the difference is that i apply skepticism as much as possible in determining right and wrong and not rely in he whisperings of a god that does not exist.

my political worldview (affiliation) is libertarian. most people do not understand the concept but it revolves around individual freedom. i believe it to be the only logical choice for a skeptic. the majority of atheists seem to be liberal. i think that has more to do with a (thoroughly documented) correlation between higher intelligence and liberalism. i know, that is counterintuitive and i wish that were not the case but the data is pretty clear.

i have a constitutional worldview when it comes to law. i believe our founding fathers knew what they were doing when they wanted to protect the freedoms of all american to worship (or not) as they choose and keep religion our of the government.

so i have many worldviews, as do you. but atheism is a component of my skeptical worldview, not a worldview in an of itself.

quote:

I may be completely off base when I say I believe there's a void in your life you can't seem to fill; that there are nagging questions about life that knowledge and science can't answer; and that there are times when you feel completely alone.



hah! oh man you have no earthly idea. i am the luckiest man alive with a beautiful and smart wife, kids who mostly stay out of trouble and hobbies ans interest that are varied and challenging. this little forum gives you a very small glimpse of one single facet of my personality--the one that loves a good intellectual debate that might cause me to learn something. that's it. nothing more or less. when i turn this computer off, the brash atheist becomes a normal but very happy, fulfilled guy.

the answers that science has not yet provided are challenges, not voids. i relish reading about a new discovery that "changes everything." the Great Questions of where we came from and where we are going have been mostly answered but the voids of our knowledge is still vast and deep. i just can't wait for some smart person to delve deeper into those voids and shine the light of reason upon them.

but i do pity those who have shed reason in exchange for superstition. you seem to be a pretty smart person but you have blinders that were implanted on you long ago that will not allow you to understand the things i have studied. all cool with me, of course, but it seems such a waste.

we could be sailing to the stars by now if religion was erased long ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Once again Uno... This is the EXACT OPPOSITE STANCE YOU WERE USING IN THE ZOOPHILLIA DEBATE... EXACT OPPOSITE!! lol


Nope. What uno and me and others were trying to get across to you was that animals could not consent. Neither can a human on life support. Communication and awareness are vital to consent. You say humping on your leg is consent, yet in the the society of canines that is most often a sign of dominence. You will even see females humping on males.

What you are asking here is why Humans developed certain traits that other animals did not. Why are we special? That all depends on what you consider special. We can't fly. Why did your god give that ability to birds and leave us flightless? We don't have the strength of the Lion. Why did god make us so physically weaker than most other predators? Why do some animals have the ability to see objects on a level I could only dream of?

As A. told you. The answer to all your questions is in evolution. We evolved in certain areas as humans because of our weak bodies and many other inferior physical traits that forced us to think more to stay alive. Other animals could rely on their brute strength and evolved in ways we did not.

This is 9th grade biology Peter.

Humans are not vastly superior in anyway other than intellilect and even in that area I think Dolphins have us beat.

You should look into people who have relationships with Dolphins. That would be something that would truly interest someone with your obsession of human\animal sex.

quote:
That was the point I was making then, and only now does it truely get the light shined on it. You stretch your belief so that it covers whatever the topic is, but in the end, you have no proven facts of science as to why humans are so vastly superior to animals. In the end, it's all smoke and mirrors you are trying.


What was your point again? It changes so often I can never be sure which point you feel you have made. Oh and another thing no one can give you an answer to your question "why humans are so vastly superior to animals" until you get more specific. In what area are you talking about? As I pointed out there are many areas that humans are far less superior than other animals.

You know the old saying "There is no such thing as a stupid question?" That is a lie.
Jank

The atheist doctrine cannot prohibit atheist candidates from having sex with farm animals for they practice the belief that morals of the Bible are hogwash and it’s up to the individual to decide what casting God aside and living life to a degree of happiness consists of.

Peter is right to suspect foul play in your reasoning.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

but i do pity those who have shed reason in exchange for superstition. you seem to be a pretty smart person but you have blinders that were implanted on you long ago that will not allow you to understand the things i have studied. all cool with me, of course, but it seems such a waste.


So, due to my beliefs being different than yours, I am intellectually inferior to you? I'm sure you have studied things I haven't, just as I have studied things you haven't. But that doesn't give me the right (or ability) to determine your level of intelligence. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
I question things as well. There was time when I also questioned my religion, but couldn't find sufficient answers outside of it. So what was your religious affiliation before you became a naturalist?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Once again Uno... This is the EXACT OPPOSITE STANCE YOU WERE USING IN THE ZOOPHILLIA DEBATE... EXACT OPPOSITE!! lol


Nope. What uno and me and others were trying to get across to you was that animals could not consent. Neither can a human on life support. Communication and awareness are vital to consent. You say humping on your leg is consent, yet in the the society of canines that is most often a sign of dominence. You will even see females humping on males.

What you are asking here is why Humans developed certain traits that other animals did not. Why are we special? That all depends on what you consider special. We can't fly. Why did your god give that ability to birds and leave us flightless? We don't have the strength of the Lion. Why did god make us so physically weaker than most other predators? Why do some animals have the ability to see objects on a level I could only dream of?

As A. told you. The answer to all your questions is in evolution. We evolved in certain areas as humans because of our weak bodies and many other inferior physical traits that forced us to think more to stay alive. Other animals could rely on their brute strength and evolved in ways we did not.

This is 9th grade biology Peter.

Humans are not vastly superior in anyway other than intellilect and even in that area I think Dolphins have us beat.

You should look into people who have relationships with Dolphins. That would be something that would truly interest someone with your obsession of human\animal sex.

quote:
That was the point I was making then, and only now does it truely get the light shined on it. You stretch your belief so that it covers whatever the topic is, but in the end, you have no proven facts of science as to why humans are so vastly superior to animals. In the end, it's all smoke and mirrors you are trying.


What was your point again? It changes so often I can never be sure which point you feel you have made. Oh and another thing no one can give you an answer to your question "why humans are so vastly superior to animals" until you get more specific. In what area are you talking about? As I pointed out there are many areas that humans are far less superior than other animals.

You know the old saying "There is no such thing as a stupid question?" That is a lie.


Great debatable post there Jank...

Uno obviously didn't want to touch my response because he knew I caught him in a contradiction. His entire point on this tread was that humans are only "SLIGHTLY" more intellegent than animals in the wild. So, if they possess that level of intel, then he would be able to draw the conclusion that they could give consent. If a leopard using "human like" emotion to take care of the baby monkey, then why couldn't that same leopard use "human like" emotion to consent to the deed with a human? Once again, it's stretching ya'll's blanket of belief to cover anything you feel you need it to, even if they are OBVIOUS contradictions.

And what I'm talking about is NOT certain traits, it's intellect. Humans are not "SLIGHTLY" more intelligent than animals... we are VASTLY more intelligent. You ask, why can birds fly and we can't... ask God when you see him. But what we do know is... WE CAN BUILD FREAKING AIRPLANES!!! LOL..Why aren't we more powerful than a lion? WHO CARES?? WE CAN BUILD A MULTITUDE OF DIFFERENT WEAPONS THAT CAN KILL A LION WHERE IT STANDS!! coyotes aren't stronger than a lion alone, but 10 of them could kill a lion. on the flip side, 10 lions and 10 coyotes could all be killed by 1 human due to our vastly higher levels of intelligence that allows us to build and operate weapons. WE ARE THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN DUE TO INTELLECT. That's my point.

I love this point you made... I hear all the time.."When you can't explain something you just insert "GOD" to make it work." THAT IS THE EXACT SAME THING YOU GUYS DO WITH EVOLUTION! lol
You have no explanation as to WHY ONLY HUMANS developed this level of intellect, emotion, and logical progression of thought... ZERO explanation as can be proved by science that "evolution" caused it. That's just the chosen blanket you guys are going with to cover it, but it doesn't PROVE with facts the answer... "Why only humans?"

The point is, I hear... WE ARE ANIMALS IDIOT... Then when it comes to zoophillia even an atheist will talk about morality, which shouldnt exist. Ya'll scratch and claw and yelp about the HUGE divide between humans and animal... But then, once again, we get this type of discussion where all I hear is an atheist saying that ... HUMANS ARE JUST SLIGHTLY EVOLVED ANIMALS IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENCE.

In the end, you are going off a faith in theories of science. You have no answer to the question of WHY ONLY HUMANS developed such higer levels of intelligence and emotion. All you do is throw the "evolution" blanket over it while calling someone an idiot for saying "God did it." The only difference in those two is that one is saying "God created it with a plan", while the other is saying "nothing did it randomly".
Bowman, don’t fret too much about these atheist candidates and their ejaculations of ignorance.

I have had these candidates under my study for years on here.

First, they are in denial.

Second they self medicate.

Third’ paranoia sets in when the booze don’t work.

Fourth, bi-polar tics of sudden rage, aggression directed at society as a whole resulting in withdrawal and inventions of relations with the imaginary.

Fifth, they are easy targets for the fringe where they huddle in secret like quail with their tails together, big eyed staring out in anticipation for some transfiguration away from their hell guided by the hand of dawkins the lesser.
Do you believe that primitive humans had these powerful weapons? Come on Peter. Follow the logic.

I did answer you, and I will answer you again. We developed our intellect to make up for our physical weakness.

What you fail to see, or refuse to see is that evolution does have facts to back it up. Tested, tried and true. Creationism has no such thing. They are not equal in anyway.

Have you looked into the dolphins? How bout octopus? These creatures are as smart if not smarter than humans. Have you seen the work the military is doing with dolphins? Amazing stuff.

We are not VASTLY more intelligent than all other animals. Before you argue so strongly on a subject be sure and get your facts straight. The bible is not a science book so in this debate it can not be used to demonstrate your point.

Consent is way more than intelligence. Actually you can be as dumb as a box of hair and consent to sex. Animals can't consent due to the lack of communication and understanding. Why is that so hard for you? I actually think you understand, but just keep clinging to your same argument because you have painted yourself into a corner and have nothing else to offer.

Human morals are not horse morals, or cow morals, or any other animals morals. They are ours. Animals have their own set of morals. We may never understand exactly how they think. We have not gotten smart enough yet to communicate on that level with other animals. What we do know from observation is that they have emotions, compassion and care for their own. As with other species as well. I have seen dog raise kittens. It didn't have to. It chose to. Why do you think that is? Have you ever seen the video of the two dogs on the freeway? One is hit by a car and the other keeps risking its own life to drag the injured one to the side of the road. It never gave up. Why would it do that? If it functioned on survival instincts alone (as you have stated) it would have left the other dog behind and made it to safety.

Dog saves dog
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Uno obviously didn't want to touch my response because he knew I caught him in a contradiction. His entire point on this tread was that humans are only "SLIGHTLY" more intellegent than animals in the wild. So, if they possess that level of intel, then he would be able to draw the conclusion that they could give consent. If a leopard using "human like" emotion to take care of the baby monkey, then why couldn't that same leopard use "human like" emotion to consent to the deed with a human? Once again, it's stretching ya'll's blanket of belief to cover anything you feel you need it to, even if they are OBVIOUS contradictions.


You're getting kinda creepy by sticking to the bestiality thing. Humans are animals. A higher evolved animal in lots of ways, less in some such as speed, strength, and a few others, yes you're right. We use our brains to grow our food and use tools for other things. Now why nature evolved US in this way no one can say. It happened and it is what it is. Cats breed with cats, dogs with dogs, lions with lions and so on and so on. Just because humans have the working parts and CAN have sex with animals means nothing. Nature gave all animals the instinct to only breed with their species. Now most humans follow that instinct and sex with animals is repugnant to them. In the lower animal kingdom it isn't especially repugnant, it's their instinct that keeps them from attempting it, and if you see a male animal "humping" another male it's an act of asserting dominance. Of course you have the whacked out faction of humans that do engage in sex with animals. They know it's against nature but who knows what goes on in the minds of people when they do that.

Humankind as a whole is repulsed by it, but some sick a**es pay to see it. Humans having sex with animals is as wrong as any other offense against nature such as murder and abuse, but some f***ed up humans do those things. The majority of the human society ostracizes the offenders and rightly so. For some reason you want an explanation for why we evolved the way we did, and again no one knows, it just happened that way. And since we can't explain WHY (not how, we know how) nature evolved humans you seem to think that means "god did it". Well peter, if god did it why didn't he make those instincts stronger in humans so the sickos wouldn't do crimes against nature? You'd have us believe that although he wouldn't let animals breed outside their species for some odd reason he didn't make human instinct strong enough to prevent it. THAT is what doesn't make sense if you insist a god made us.
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The point is, I hear... WE ARE ANIMALS IDIOT... Then when it comes to zoophillia even an atheist will talk about morality, which shouldnt exist.
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Why do you say morality shouldn't exist? Do you mean atheists shouldn't be moral? Why would you think that? Atheists have the same instincts as christians when it comes to getting along in society. Human nature/instinct is strong in most people no matter what they do or do not believe, and they follow it because it feels right and it feels good to do so. And the people that go against that can be believers or non-believers. Christians don't "own" morality.
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The point is, I hear... WE ARE ANIMALS IDIOT... Then when it comes to zoophillia even an atheist will talk about morality, which shouldnt exist. Ya'll scratch and claw and yelp about the HUGE divide between humans and animal... But then, once again, we get this type of discussion where all I hear is an atheist saying that ... HUMANS ARE JUST SLIGHTLY EVOLVED ANIMALS IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENCE.

You keep claiming people are calling you an idiot. Unob especially. I've "skimmed" back through some posts and can't find that. Where are the posts?
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Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Uno obviously didn't want to touch my response because he knew I caught him in a contradiction.


i didn't bother because you are too stupid to grasp a simple concept. there, i said it.

the previous debate was about your obsession with farm animal sex and how it was "wrong" for a human to copulate with a animal. you insisted that god implanted that moral concept. i stated that it was wrong because consent cannot be given - no god necessary.

THIS debate is about morality and intelligence in animals. i posted links to animals behaving strangely un-instinctual with elephants "mourning" over the bones of a dead relative, of a cougar coddling the offspring of a mother-monkey she had killed and a big hug from a lion who was "happy" to see his friends again.

not all animals are "instinctual" as you keep claiming. some are very smart. some are probably much smarter than we can imagine but we have not found ways of measuring such alien intelligence (thinking whales and dolphins here). all this is abundantly clear from anyone with half a brain that studies the issue even casually - but it's completely lost on your because of your religion.

humans are smart by our standards but i'd like to see you survive for a day, much less a lifetime in the jungle. tigers are geniuses when it comes to their environment.

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You have no answer to the question of WHY ONLY HUMANS developed such higer levels of intelligence and emotion.


yes, we are "smarter" because, yes, we can build airplanes. brilliant observation. our intelligence evolved as a survival trait long ago when our ancestors came down from the trees and had to devise ways to feed themselves in the savannas of africa. it has been discovered that many monkeys are much better tool users than we ever imagined. that requires INTELLIGENCE, peter.

look, peter, intelligence is associated with the ratio of body mass to brain size. an animalscan have a huge brain but if it has a corresponding huge body, intelligence takes a hit. this is widely demonstrated all across the spectrum of animals life. we humans evolved a large brain coupled with a small body. we pay for that ability with babies having heads so large that they are, technically, born before they are really ready for the real world and are utterly helpless for a long period of time. our jaws have evolved smaller and smaller since we do not live on a diet of nuts anymore so large jaw muscles are selected against (evolutionarily speaking). as a result, we have problems with wisdom teeth that crowd our mouth and must be pried out when we reach adulthood.

of course you will claim all this is just a matter of faith. sadly, you are not capable of grasping these concepts. there is a cure for stupidity. it's called "a textbook."

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