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Marriage is is a vow between a man and a woman, nowhere in the scriptures does God approve of any other marriages. Call it what you what to, but it is not approve of. Eve was made for Adam, any Christian who begs to differ is wrong. Man is to leave his parents and join himself to a wife, not another man.
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We do not live in a tneocracy - we live in a democracy. Civil unions are designed to offer legal rights to unmarried partners. Who I desire to inherit my property at my death, who I wish to benefit from my insurance or Social Security benefits, and who I wish to be at my bedside when I die - is my right. Your assessment of wheather as a Christian I am right or wrong really means nothing to me. I will decide, based on my own religious convictions what is right or wrong for me.
quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
We do not live in a tneocracy - we live in a democracy. Civil unions are designed to offer legal rights to unmarried partners. Who I desire to inherit my property at my death, who I wish to benefit from my insurance or Social Security benefits, and who I wish to be at my bedside when I die - is my right. Your assessment of wheather as a Christian I am right or wrong really means nothing to me. I will decide, based on my own religious convictions what is right or wrong for me.


a Theocracy even - cold fingers.
Civil Unions do offer opportunities for some unique situations. Since it isn't technically a marrige, can a person have a civil union with more than one person at a time? Can a person be married and be in a civil union? How can the government tell certain religious groups they can't practice their faith by having more than one wife? Sorry, kind of rambling. I think Excelman has the right answer.
A civil union is the court house marrage we are all familiar with. Performed by a judge, not a minister, it is marrage according to civil law - not religious. It is between only 2 people. Tax paying adults who contribute to this economy deserve the right to decide who benefits from their social security benefits,property inheritance, medical decisions, etc - it is, after all, MY money.
quote:
Tax paying adults who contribute to this economy deserve the right to decide who benefits from their social security benefits,property inheritance, medical decisions, etc - it is, after all, MY money.


Ok, so let's say we're in Mississippi. Two tax paying adults would like to get married. They are both brothers. Should we let them?

Let's say we're in Arkansas. Two tax paying adults would like to get married. They are mother and son. Should we let them?

Let's say we're in Utah. Five tax paying adults would like to get married, one man and four women. Should we let them?

I personally don't care what people do in the privacy of their own home, that's their business. However, letting homosexuals get married will start us down a very slippery slope. How can we say no to those examples if we say yes to two men?
quote:
Originally posted by that smart chick:
The Bible also preaches that liars and gossips and adulterers are an abomination. Let's all start rallying against them on these boards. I don't know why people pick one sin out of the long list that God gave us to fuss over. Talk about Cherry Picking your Bible verses...


Don't forget a man is not supposed to cut his beard or bob his hair.
Your argument sounds a bit hysterical - unreasonable. Civil unions are between only 2 people. Incest is still illegal in all 50 states - and will remain so. Poligamy is also illegal - and will remain so. Your argument does not really make sense. We are talking about 2 unrelated consenting adults. Civil unions are legal in I beleave 4 states at the moment. Even president Bush supports civil unions - as he stated in his interview with Barbara Walters. Its going to happen - sooner or later. Again - its my money, I pay taxes just like you. Its my right to decide who should inherit my property, get my social security benefits and be at my bedside when I die. This is actually a conservative way of thinking. Conservatives usually dont beleave in government interfearance in the private lives of tax paying Americans. Some form of this will eventually happen. Its just a matter of time.
My partner and I have been together 33 years and hope we live to see the day that civil unions are law. There are so many injustices and we have done everything we can think of when it comes to wills, living wills, etc. Still, who knows, if one of us kicks the bucket, that some family members come in and contest it and try to take everything we have worked for and keep it for themselves. Another thing is insurance. I have good insurance with BCBS, my partner has to pay for his insurance and it is outrageously expensive. Unfortunately, he cannot share my insurance benefits. It is very sad.
Don't forget a man is not supposed to cut his beard or bob his hair.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are a lot of non-believers who like to quote the Old Testament and really don't know what they are saying. They pull things out like killing people for certain sins, eye for an eye, setting people on fire, etc... What the quoters do not understand is that when Jesus came and died for our sins, we are no longer governed by the old covenant laws. Now we are covered by blood of Jesus as found in the New Testament.

Jesus was strongly critical of those who still practiced the Old Covenant laws. They believed that the only way to heaven was by their works and animal sacrifice. Fortunately for us, we can accept Jesus as our savior and he will fill us with his spirit so that we can turn from our sins.

Christians are sinners too as no one but Jesus is perfect. However, true Christians do not live in sin every second of their lives. When I sin, the inner part of me that has been filled with Holy Spirit reminds me of what I have done and I usually repent then and there.

There are also a lot of chuch going people who think they are saved because of their church membership. These people are good at putting on airs on Sunday but live differently through the week. Some one can go to church every day of their lives and still be just as lost as someone who has never stepped foot into a church.

The truth of the matter is, satan will attack us wherever we are weak. Be it pornography, substance abuse, adultery, homosexuality, etc. I have weaknesses just like everybody else and it is only by the grace of God that I can overcome these urges.

I can never condone any type of union between people of the same sex. That does not mean that these people should be condemned or persecuted as jugement should be left to God and God alone. Jesus tells us to love believers and sinners alike. The only way to win people over to the lord is by love
I honestly don't care either way. I think these days, people need to try and stay out of other's business. Far too often, people interfere with other's personal life, whether it be an issue of sexuality or personal preference of someone of a different race. There are other instances too, but I'm sure you get the point.

I am a Christian, but I don't judge anyone. If someone is homosexual, that is their business, and it doesn't affect me as a person or my beliefs. That is their life to live and if they do not believe the same way I do, that doesn't make them a bad person. The God that I gave my heart to forgives all sins, I cannot fathom why he would hold homosexuals to a higher standard than he would someone with a heart full of evil, or a mind full of evil doing. It just doesn't make sense to me. Smiler

Maybe I am open minded in that aspect, because I've had gay friends, and know that they go through a lot. Not only from religious people, always telling them they are going to hell, but also people that have a fear of them. It's heartbreaking when you see your friend beat up just because he likes another man and cannot help it.


So, really, I don't mind if civil unions became legal. I think all in all, religion aside, that it is only fair. They pay taxes, and fall in love, just like the rest of us, and should be able to obtain in a legal status, the same rights as you or I have.

What harm would that really do to us in our day to day life? When I was married, I vowed to love my husband and my husband vowed to love me. It had nothing to do with anyone else, and I can't see how that sanctity of my marriage would be lessened, just because homosexuals were allowed to be legally bound.

That's just my two cents, it will probably not be agreed with by many, and that's ok. Smiler That's your right to believe the way you want to.

Just notice though, that every generation has something like this, (women's rights, black rights, and freedom from religious oppression comes to mind) and one day this issue will come to pass.

It hasn't seemed to hurt Canada so far, either, from what I know, at least. Smiler

~Manda~
The God that I gave my heart to forgives all sins, I cannot fathom why he would hold homosexuals to a higher standard than he would someone with a heart full of evil, or a mind full of evil doing. It just doesn't make sense to me.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


He actually holds Christians who teach the word to a higher standard. If a preacher is spreading false doctrine, then he will be held to a higher countability than a non-christian.

Jesus will forgive a homosexual or anyone else for that matter. However, the bible tells us that to be saved and have eternal life we must accept Jesus as our personal savior and then turn from our previous sinful lives. That means we do not continue doing the things we used to do.
Scott, I understand that, but ya see, here's we are different. I don't try to teach the word, I accept people for who they are. I don't preach to people so I don't spread false doctrine. I am completely different from what others may think a Christian should be.

I know this, because I've been told this several times, and all that really matters to me is what I feel in my heart.


This is one reason why I usually do not talk about religion, because really, religion is a personal matter. It is different for everyone that reads the Bible, or walks through the doors of a Church. No one is ever really on the same page, hence why there are so many different view points when it comes to things like this.


I am what I like to call a free thinking Christian. I do not base my opinion on a person by their sexuality, their appearance, or their beliefs. I do however base it on how that person treats me. Smiler

Case for example, one of my closest friends is an atheist, and I am a Christian. We get along beautifully, because we never talk about religion.


I may or may not agree with homosexuality, that isn't the point. They are just trying to get legal rights so that they can benefit from each other. Smiler That I do think they should have, it's their sin, if they accept it, then it's their's to bear.

My friend that is gay was also a Christian. When his Church found out, they kicked him out. I felt horrible for him.

As for answering your post directly. Most people that are saved do try to follow a life without doing things sinful. But no one ever succeeds, because they are human. People are infalliable in that way. I've known people that condemn homosexuals, because it's a sin, and then they turn around and have a mistress/or mistresses on the side... Even though they are good people, they continue to live in sin themselves.

Point I'm trying to make, is what someone said earlier, it's picking and choosing sins that are worse, when all are bad.

I choose to live and let live. They are people too, and deserve love. That I feel as a Christian, but moreso as a compassionate human being. Big Grin

Now, I must say, I won't debate this further, there will be no reason to re-iterate my view, it's all here. Smiler Also, because I feel religion is one of those things, as I stated before, that I don't like to debate. Big Grin

~Manda~
quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Your argument sounds a bit hysterical - unreasonable. Civil unions are between only 2 people. Incest is still illegal in all 50 states - and will remain so. Poligamy is also illegal - and will remain so. Your argument does not really make sense. We are talking about 2 unrelated consenting adults. Civil unions are legal in I beleave 4 states at the moment. Even president Bush supports civil unions - as he stated in his interview with Barbara Walters. Its going to happen - sooner or later. Again - its my money, I pay taxes just like you. Its my right to decide who should inherit my property, get my social security benefits and be at my bedside when I die. This is actually a conservative way of thinking. Conservatives usually dont beleave in government interfearance in the private lives of tax paying Americans. Some form of this will eventually happen. Its just a matter of time.


I agree with "picking your sin to discuss"... when SIN is SIN...

Pres Bush is FOR this? Guess he is the largest "pickers of a SIN" there is then...

Now THAT doesn't make sense... totally against abortion, called it murder, NO stem cell research, but he can allow our forces to get killed daily, and he is for same-sex marriage...

He is THE ultimate hypocrite!

I think if anyone has had a relationship with anyone for 33 years, the other party should have ALL the benefits of the party who passes first. If that makes sense.

But maybe for a slightly different reason... A divorced person, or an unmarried person actually has their benefits that they paid for MANY years go back to the government. Even their children cannot get their benefits....

I think the face-lift should be to allow ANY SURVIVOR of choice get ALL the benefits of the person who paid dearly all their life, whether it be a 'partner' or a child, or even a sibling.
quote:
I think the face-lift should be to allow ANY SURVIVOR of choice get ALL the benefits of the person who paid dearly all their life, whether it be a 'partner' or a child, or even a sibling.

That would ruin/bankrupt the system. The only way the government or private companies can pay benefits to those that live longer than normal is for some to die younger than normal and forfit their benefits back into the system. It's a tough way to stay afloat.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
I really don't care about civil unions. If gays want to suffer through that more power to them. The one difference between marriage and civil unions is that marriage involves your religion. Let them have their civil unions, just leave marriage sacred.



That is no different than a man and a woman going to the court house to get married, given a few years, their marriage is just as legal as anyone who got married in Church...

Either you are for it, or against it.. ..Marriage is marriage...
quote:
Originally posted by Alphonse:
quote:
I think the face-lift should be to allow ANY SURVIVOR of choice get ALL the benefits of the person who paid dearly all their life, whether it be a 'partner' or a child, or even a sibling.

That would ruin/bankrupt the system. The only way the government or private companies can pay benefits to those that live longer than normal is for some to die younger than normal and forfit their benefits back into the system. It's a tough way to stay afloat.


Hmmmm... does this sum it up for the reason why States will not allow same-sex marriages? Even in Civil Union???

Civil Union is marriage, but the survivor gets the benefits, no matter if it is hetrosexual, or homosexual...

I was just expanding the idea that with all the hard-earned money that people put INTO the system, then ANY of their survivors should collect the benefits. ANYONE!
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by Alphonse:
quote:
I think the face-lift should be to allow ANY SURVIVOR of choice get ALL the benefits of the person who paid dearly all their life, whether it be a 'partner' or a child, or even a sibling.

That would ruin/bankrupt the system. The only way the government or private companies can pay benefits to those that live longer than normal is for some to die younger than normal and forfit their benefits back into the system. It's a tough way to stay afloat.


Hmmmm... does this sum it up for the reason why States will not allow same-sex marriages? Even in Civil Union???

Civil Union is marriage, but the survivor gets the benefits, no matter if it is hetrosexual, or homosexual...

I was just expanding the idea that with all the hard-earned money that people put INTO the system, then ANY of their survivors should collect the benefits. ANYONE!


That's what I was trying to point out. If ANY survivor got all the remaining benefits the system would go under. This has nothing to do with Civil Unions, I think in most cases both partners in a Civil Union work away. (Not alwasys the case in a marrige) In a lot of systems today, when one retires they can either draw for just themself or draw for their wife also. If you draw for yourself, the payment is more, but stops when you die, leaving your wife with nothing. If you include your wife, the payment is less, but continues after you die to your wife. Your retirement service is hoping you choose poorly, it's the only way they can keep up with thoose that choose wisely.
Manda

I'm not big on talking religion either. Reason being is that religion has sent more people to hell than anything else. To me it's all about Jesus and his word as well as his Father's words found in the Bible.

If something is being presented to me and it's not biblical, then I am going to reject it. Is condoning sin of any kind biblical? Did Jesus say to save yourself and not worry about anyone else? Of course not on both questions. No one can change God's word. People who do are only creating a god of their imagination.

I'm not saying that you should go out and start hounding your friends to become believers or take the word to the street. If you're not called to do that then don't. However, you can pray for your lost friends and be an example to them without saying a word about religion to them. All it takes is for you to plant one small seed by showing them love, Jesus style.

A true Christian will always stand out, as they shine a little brighter. It's hard not to when you have the love of Jesus in your heart.

*Note from AM: This post has been moved to it's appropriate user*

Sorry - not my log in name on previous post. I am on a work computer shared by many people and I did not log them off. Looks like someone has a bad sense of humor.
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by bigdick:
Manda

I'm not big on talking religion either. Reason being is that religion has sent more people to hell than anything else. To me it's all about Jesus and his word as well as his Father's words found in the Bible.

If something is being presented to me and it's not biblical, then I am going to reject it. Is condoning sin of any kind biblical? Did Jesus say to save yourself and not worry about anyone else? Of course not on both questions. No one can change God's word. People who do are only creating a god of their imagination.

I'm not saying that you should go out and start hounding your friends to become believers or take the word to the street. If you're not called to do that then don't. However, you can pray for your lost friends and be an example to them without saying a word about religion to them. All it takes is for you to plant one small seed by showing them love, Jesus style.

A true Christian will always stand out, as they shine a little brighter. It's hard not to when you have the love of Jesus in your heart.


I'm sorry but WHAT A CROCK! I have as much love in my heart as anyone else out there and I don't consider myself a Christian. I guess you also think that the millions of people around the world you are not Christians are doomed as well. UGH!
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
quote:
Originally posted by bigdick:
Manda

I'm not big on talking religion either. Reason being is that religion has sent more people to hell than anything else. To me it's all about Jesus and his word as well as his Father's words found in the Bible.

If something is being presented to me and it's not biblical, then I am going to reject it. Is condoning sin of any kind biblical? Did Jesus say to save yourself and not worry about anyone else? Of course not on both questions. No one can change God's word. People who do are only creating a god of their imagination.

I'm not saying that you should go out and start hounding your friends to become believers or take the word to the street. If you're not called to do that then don't. However, you can pray for your lost friends and be an example to them without saying a word about religion to them. All it takes is for you to plant one small seed by showing them love, Jesus style.

A true Christian will always stand out, as they shine a little brighter. It's hard not to when you have the love of Jesus in your heart.


I'm sorry but WHAT A CROCK! I have as much love in my heart as anyone else out there and I don't consider myself a Christian. I guess you also think that the millions of people around the world you are not Christians are doomed as well. UGH!


Psssssst, David L. With a nickname like HE has in MY opinion is offensive... I think it is wrong to make nicknames like that, it should be offensive to anyone and everyone reading this forum...
quote:
Don't forget a man is not supposed to cut his beard or bob his hair.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are a lot of non-believers who like to quote the Old Testament and really don't know what they are saying. They pull things out like killing people for certain sins, eye for an eye, setting people on fire, etc... What the quoters do not understand is that when Jesus came and died for our sins, we are no longer governed by the old covenant laws. Now we are covered by blood of Jesus as found in the New Testament.

Jesus was strongly critical of those who still practiced the Old Covenant laws. They believed that the only way to heaven was by their works and animal sacrifice. Fortunately for us, we can accept Jesus as our savior and he will fill us with his spirit so that we can turn from our sins.

Christians are sinners too as no one but Jesus is perfect. However, true Christians do not live in sin every second of their lives. When I sin, the inner part of me that has been filled with Holy Spirit reminds me of what I have done and I usually repent then and there.

There are also a lot of chuch going people who think they are saved because of their church membership. These people are good at putting on airs on Sunday but live differently through the week. Some one can go to church every day of their lives and still be just as lost as someone who has never stepped foot into a church.

The truth of the matter is, satan will attack us wherever we are weak. Be it pornography, substance abuse, adultery, homosexuality, etc. I have weaknesses just like everybody else and it is only by the grace of God that I can overcome these urges.

I can never condone any type of union between people of the same sex. That does not mean that these people should be condemned or persecuted as jugement should be left to God and God alone. Jesus tells us to love believers and sinners alike. The only way to win people over to the lord is by love




How do you feel about slavery?
quote:
Originally posted by fiddle:
Marriage is is a vow between a man and a woman, nowhere in the scriptures does God approve of any other marriages. Call it what you what to, but it is not approve of. Eve was made for Adam, any Christian who begs to differ is wrong. Man is to leave his parents and join himself to a wife, not another man.

Correct, so why do you have to have two witnesses, the agent of the civil authority, and the marrying couple sign a piece of paper. DOES GOD KNOW HOW TO READ? DOES HE KEEP FILING CABINETS FULL OF RECORDS?
Marriage in the 50 states and all territories of the United States is a CIVIL UNION. It can also be Holy Matrimony, Or Holy Hell. BUT it is not necessary to HAVE THE PREACHER ACT ON BEHALF OF THE STATE, THOUGH HE IS AN AGENT OF THE STATE IN ALL MARRIAGES.
Assigning State Authority to a Church official ought to be declared Unconstitutional. The State should ONLY Recognize Marriages REGISTERED WITH THE STATE BY THE INVOLVED PARTIES IN PERSON AT A STATE REGISTRATION OFFICE. Keep the Church out of it.
quote:
Originally posted by drdemo35:
Should we deny gays the right to a legal marriage any more than we do to the aldulterers, agnostics, or atheists(or do they get married?)?


Who are YOU to deny ME the right to marriage? And yes, atheists do get married. Atheists can love one another, just as anyone else. Sometimes it's even easier.
quote:
Originally posted by drdemo35:
quote:
Originally posted by e:
quote:
Originally posted by drdemo35:
Should we deny gays the right to a legal marriage any more than we do to the aldulterers, agnostics, or atheists(or do they get married?)?


Who are YOU to deny ME the right to marriage? And yes, atheists do get married. Atheists can love one another, just as anyone else. Sometimes it's even easier.


e
Please reread what I posted. No where does it say that I am against it. The sentence you quoted started with "Should we deny" not "We should deny". Take a chill pill or breathe deeply.

And most people that argue against gay marriage make references to the Bible. That is why I brought up Atheists, to make a point since they couldn't possibly, in their minds, be married in a Christian sense.

Gee, this particular Atheist I know has not been married as often as his Christian Brother in law from his first marriage, Not only been married but my FIRST wife was a full fledged Lutheran, and our daughter is MARRIED, AND AN EPISCOPAL PRIEST. YOU FOLKS GOTTA GET A LIFE OF YOUR OWN, AND LET THE REST OF US LIVE OURS IN PEACE AND HARMONY, KUMBAYAH...AND IMAGINE
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by drdemo35:
quote:
Originally posted by e:
quote:
Originally posted by drdemo35:
Should we deny gays the right to a legal marriage any more than we do to the aldulterers, agnostics, or atheists(or do they get married?)?


Who are YOU to deny ME the right to marriage? And yes, atheists do get married. Atheists can love one another, just as anyone else. Sometimes it's even easier.


e
Please reread what I posted. No where does it say that I am against it. The sentence you quoted started with "Should we deny" not "We should deny". Take a chill pill or breathe deeply.

And most people that argue against gay marriage make references to the Bible. That is why I brought up Atheists, to make a point since they couldn't possibly, in their minds, be married in a Christian sense.

Gee, this particular Atheist I know has not been married as often as his Christian Brother in law from his first marriage, Not only been married but my FIRST wife was a full fledged Lutheran, and our daughter is MARRIED, AND AN EPISCOPAL PRIEST. YOU FOLKS GOTTA GET A LIFE OF YOUR OWN, AND LET THE REST OF US LIVE OURS IN PEACE AND HARMONY, KUMBAYAH...AND IMAGINE
Obviously, judging from the response, either I didn't make my message clear, you misunderstood my message, or both so I chose to delete my posts from this topic. Please disregard any quotes from my posts because there are apparently some things being taken out of context and twisted(which, by the way, happens alot with the Bible) to make it seem as if I am against gay marriage, or civil unions or whatever you want to call it. I am not against it. I think they have as much right to the same benefits as any heterosexual couple.

That said, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

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