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quote:
Me: At the core of every Christian is a Bill Gray just waiting to get out. The difference is only in degree.

BashBama: Not true at all.


Hello Nahsbama,

You certainly seem to agree with him on the vast majority of the core concepts. If you are to call yourself a "christian" then you must, by definition, accept all of the following "truths":

You believe a single person's death 2000 years ago somehow saved mankind from ****ation and, furthermore, if I do not accept this as true, I am "unsaved."

You believe that the Creator of the universe dictated a book.

You believe that book either literally or metaphorically describes how this universe was created and how life - specifically humans - evolved.

You believe in telepathic communication with this creator and, further, that He rewards your mind-signals with manna from heaven.

You believe that anyone who does not believe as you do will, at least, not have the reward you will have and, at worst will burn in the fiery depths hell. You may not enjoy the "fact" that a non-believer will burn for eternity (as Bill obviously does) but it definitely makes you "sad" that non-believers will suffer some fate that is less desirable than what you deem yourself deserving of.

I could go on, of course. If I am wrong about any of these statements I am sure you will correct me. These are the same core concepts that Bill adheres to, Nashbama. No, you are obviously not a self righteous blowhard like Bill but your differences with him are only in presentation.
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You have a very limited idea of what Christianity is. For example in the church I attend we don't believe in being "saved". We also don't talk about hell in any way or discuss in any way other peoples' destiny.

I'd go one but your statements are just meant as attacks on Nash and Christianity and they aren't worth anyone's time to address.
quote:
You believe a single person's death 2000 years ago somehow saved mankind from ****ation and, furthermore, if I do not accept this as true, I am "unsaved."


The first half is close, everything after "furthermore" is wrong.

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You believe that the Creator of the universe dictated a book.


Wrong.

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You believe that book either literally or metaphorically describes how this universe was created and how life - specifically humans - evolved.


Metaphorically, sort of.

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You believe in telepathic communication with this creator and, further, that He rewards your mind-signals with manna from heaven.


Wrong.

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You believe that anyone who does not believe as you do will, at least, not have the reward you will have and, at worst will burn in the fiery depths hell. You may not enjoy the "fact" that a non-believer will burn for eternity (as Bill obviously does) but it definitely makes you "sad" that non-believers will suffer some fate that is less desirable than what you deem yourself deserving of.


Completely wrong, not even in the ballpark.

I agree with Phoenix, your idea of Christianity is pretty narrow and off the mark. That's why your statements on my beliefs aren't accurate. From what I can tell, your view of Christianity comes from reading Bill's posts and hearing the rants of televangelists, not from the actual source.
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I'd go one but your statements are just meant as attacks on Nash and Christianity and they aren't worth anyone's time to address.


I am not attacking. I am questioning. An open exchange of ideas.

I find it quite surprising that your church does not believe in salvation or heaven or hell. That cannot be Christianity.

Again, not attacking, genuinely fascinated.
The core beliefs of Xity are contained in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds for Trinitarian Christians. The actual code of conduct is found in Christ's own words as recorded in the Sermon on the Mount and His parables.
Core Xity does not address either the mechanism for the creation or the destruction of the earth, only that God created the heavens and earth, and that Jesus Christ will come again in glory to judge the quick and the dead.
Core Xity only promotes two sacraments as necessary for salvation: baptism and the Holy Eucharist (Lord's Supper).
Core Xity is turn the other cheek, be not proud and boastful and to get the log out of your eye before you comment on the dust speck in your neighbor's, return good for evil, and to seek to make peace in the world and feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless, and visit those in prison.
Core Xity does not address Rapture, Tribulation, talking snakes, Gog and Magog as Iran and Russia (or wherever they are claimed to be of late), "election," or "getting saved."
Those are addenda from the feverish minds of those who wish to lead their own flocks rather than to be led by Our Lord in His example and words.
It probably didn't take a week after Pentecost for the first schism and heresy taught to begin.
That is what happens when there is not a rule book, rather a book of acts and sermons and parables.
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Nash,

I enjoy reading your posts and I genuinely believe that you believe what you say you believe. However, I also think the Skeptic has the basics right for most Christians who live in our area. Most Christians around here seem to be Southern Baptist.


Thanks. Skeptic may be describing other people's beliefs, but not mine and not all Christians.
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Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
You have a very limited idea of what Christianity is. For example in the church I attend we don't believe in being "saved". We also don't talk about hell in any way or discuss in any way other peoples' destiny.

I'd go one but your statements are just meant as attacks on Nash and Christianity and they aren't worth anyone's time to address.



You go to church with Joel O'steen? Oh I'm sorry. Do you attend meetings with Joel O'steen? They don't believe in salvation or heaven or hell either. So you think everyones great, everythings great and life is great. It's just people like me that need meds! Ha
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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
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Originally posted by muddytoes20:
Most Christians around here seem to be Southern Baptist.

Muddy


Or CoC, which is the same thing without musical instruments.


Whatever church a person attends and what denomination that church belongs to does not necessarily dictate a Christian's core beliefs. Some people may have found a perfect fit, their beliefs matching a certain denomination's doctrine in full, but most Christians I've conversed with would not fall into that category.

JMHO
Skeptic has a good point.

According to the religious, we are born into sin.

This is a despicable and false notion. If, for no other reason, we do not ask to be born.

Later, we must "repent" to come into the light of god. What rubbish.

It's all BS. We are born innocent. Most of us grow up with good, understandable morals and the idea of goodness, along our human lights.

Only the most hateful among us would burden a newborn with a subtle and indefinite sin.


DF
Of course babies are born with a sin nature, everyone has a sin nature and that is why children and adults sin. Even after salvation a person will continue to sin but the primary goal is to stop sinning and be holy like God. One of the greatest moments in a person's live should be hearing the voice of God, it's one of the greatest things you can ever hear and after salvation guess what He keeps talking to you just like he did in the Old Testament. God is an amazing being and just as the Bible predicts the road to heaven is narrow and few will find it. I'm glad I'm one of those few.
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising: You have a very limited idea of what Christianity is. For example in the church I attend we don't believe in being "saved". We also don't talk about hell in any way or discuss in any way other peoples' destiny.

I'd go one but your statements are just meant as attacks on Nash and Christianity and they aren't worth anyone's time to address.
Hi Phoenix,

If your church does not believe in being saved; why do you go to church? What is the purpose of church -- except to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What is the Gospel? It is that Jesus Christ lay aside His deity, came in the form of man, to offer Himself as the perfect Lamb to die on the cross -- that He might offer the free gift of salvation to all who will believe. His work on the cross was to atone for our sins. That work is finished.

All we have to do to gain salvation is to, by grace through faith, receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and our Savior. The Gospel: His virgin birth, sacrificial death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven -- all done to offer salvation and eternal life with God -- to all who will believe.

What other purpose is there to attend church? We go to church to worship God, to fellowship with other Christian believers, to seek salvation -- and once we have attained salvation through faith -- we go there to learn more about God's Word -- that we might share His Gospel with many others. Why? So that they might also gain salvation.

Why do you go to church? What do you do at your church -- if you are not studying His Word, the Bible -- growing in your faith and in your Christian walk? Why? So that you might share this with others, to help them find salvation.

I cannot imagine a church which does not believe in being saved. Please, I am not be facetious -- just sincerely curious. What does your church do and why do you do it? If there is no heaven and no hell -- what was the purpose of Jesus Christ coming to die on the cross? If there is a heaven and a hell -- should we not tell folks about them so that they might make a wise decision about where they will spend their eternity?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by DeepFat:
It's all BS. We are born innocent. Most of us grow up with good, understandable morals and the idea of goodness, along our human lights.
DF

Hi Deep,

Goodness, or being good -- no matter how good you are -- will not get one into heaven. Only one thing will get a person into heaven -- and that is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, being really, really good will get you a pat on the back and a big "Atta Boy!" from people. But, it will not get you into heaven.

But, getting into heaven is easy. All you have to do is to believe in Jesus Christ -- and sincerely ask Him to be your Lord and Savior. That is all it takes.

Of course, and this is the big rub with many folks, especially atheists -- you have to allow Him to be Master of your life. But, once you do -- you will find that you are much happier. I pray you do find this before it is too late.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[quote]quote:
You believe a single person's death 2000 years ago somehow saved mankind from ****ation and, furthermore, if I do not accept this as true, I am "unsaved."

Nash: The first half is close, everything after "furthermore" is wrong.

So you do not believe in salvation? I do not understand. This is a basic senate of Christianity. John 3:16 and all that.

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You believe that the Creator of the universe dictated a book.

Nash: Wrong.

So you do not accept the Bible as the written or inspired word of God? This is a basic senate of Christianity.

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You believe that book either literally or metaphorically describes how this universe was created and how life - specifically humans - evolved.

Nash: Metaphorically, sort of.

Sort of? Kind of a "pick and choose" believer? Again, not an attack but a genuine interest in how a quasi-sorta Christian juggles all this stuff.

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You believe in telepathic communication with this creator and, further, that He rewards your mind-signals with manna from heaven.

Nash: Wrong.

You do not believe in the power of prayer? I believe you are being inconsistent. You have told me that you would pray for me not long ago. Did I misunderstand?

quote:
You believe that anyone who does not believe as you do will, at least, not have the reward you will have and, at worst will burn in the fiery depths hell. . . .


Nash: Completely wrong, not even in the ballpark.

I do not understand how that can be: You do not believe in heaven or hell?

Nashbama, I am completley confused. Your views do not coincide with Catholicism, CoC, Baptist or any protestant religion. You call yourself a Christian but your beliefs really coincide with that of a deist.

I am sincerely confused.
Oh, Good Lord, not a rant on sinful babies again!

"Getting saved" is a formula invented by Protestants 500 years ago or less. "Original sin" is just a metaphor for the fact that we all once at an age of moral discretion, must choose between good and evil. A child cannot discern between the two.

For people who supposedly reject "innovation" in the church, Calvin sure did invent a lot of stuff and then others picked up on that. It is as if a confession of faith suddenly was the telos until the Judgment Day! That is step one of the journey of Christian living, not the end all and be all.

Judgment belongs to God, not to diamond pinky-ringed cult leaders with their shining teeth and good Republican hair. I'll take a rumpled genteely shabby curate any day over anything I see on the televisors, a priest or pastor who can actually read Greek and preferably gone thru the rigors of (hopefully) Sewanee, the General Theology Seminary, or even Oxford, myself! Although, I have met a few from Nashota House who are entirely sound in their Anglo-Catholicism, keeping the Ave Marias to an absolute minimum in public.
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So you do not believe in salvation? I do not understand. This is a basic senate of Christianity. John 3:16 and all that.


The first part of your statement is about salvation. The second is on whether I believe you are going to hell or not. Since I don't judge you, the second part of your statement is inaccurate.

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So you do not accept the Bible as the written or inspired word of God? This is a basic senate of Christianity.


Inspired is different from dictation. The four gospels and the letters of the New Testament were written by apostles in their own words inspired by their experiences with Christ. The Old Testament is a combination of Jewish history and oral tradition inspired by God, but not dictated directly to them. That's why your statement was inaccurate.

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Sort of? Kind of a "pick and choose" believer? Again, not an attack but a genuine interest in how a quasi-sorta Christian juggles all this stuff.


Because I don't fit in your idea of Christianity doesn't make me a pick and choose believer. There is a lot of metaphor with the creation story in the Bible, it's not a literal account. When we compare the metaphors with what we know scientifically, a lot of it fits. It's still a tricky subject which I don't have all the answers for, so that's why you get a "sort of". Your statement was not completely inaccurate, but not totally correct either.

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You do not believe in the power of prayer? I believe you are being inconsistent. You have told me that you would pray for me not long ago. Did I misunderstand?


Prayer is not telepathic or mind signals and I have never received mana from heaven. Not only was it an incorrect statement, but also clearly an attempt to be sarcastic. So again, your statement is wrong.

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I do not understand how that can be: You do not believe in heaven or hell?


I never said I didn't believe in Heaven or Hell, I said your statement was wrong. Your statement has nothing to do with the existence of the two, you claim that I believe you are going to Hell. I don't because I don't judge you, therefore your statement is inaccurate.


quote:
Nashbama, I am completley confused. Your views do not coincide with Catholicism, CoC, Baptist or any protestant religion. You call yourself a Christian but your beliefs really coincide with that of a deist.

I am sincerely confused.


Exactly my point. Your idea of Christianity comes from what you've seen on TV or experienced in a certain denomination. It doesn't come directly from the source. That's why your statements about my beliefs are inaccurate.

I'm not a part of a denomination and my beliefs come from my own study and thought rather than following what a preacher says. My beliefs on how Christ wants me to live comes directly from Him. That's why I'm not a pick and chose Christian as you claim, you just never encountered one who thought for himself.
OK, so according to Mr. Bill, I can be the most rotten, corrupt, evil, disgusting, loathesome bustard in the world and still go to heaven as long as I have a "personal" relationship with a dead man.

But. If I am the world's most charitable, sweetest, nicest, honorable person, and an atheist, I'm doomed to hell.

What kind of god would create such a system? And why is he worth worshipping?


DF
quote:
OK, so according to Mr. Bill, I can be the most rotten, corrupt, evil, disgusting, loathesome bustard in the world and still go to heaven as long as I have a "personal" relationship with a dead man.

But. If I am the world's most charitable, sweetest, nicest, honorable person, and an atheist, I'm doomed to hell.

What kind of god would create such a system? And why is he worth worshipping?


That's according to Bill. Last time I checked, Bill isn't God.
quote:
Your idea of Christianity comes from what you've seen on TV or experienced in a certain denomination


"Certain" denomination? No, friend, your beliefs don't coincide with any denomination that I have ever heard of.

Hey, don't get me wrong, you believe what you wanna believe -- that's fine with me. But your stance seems as inconsistent as if I were to say I am a atheist who believes in a God.

It seems to me that you would be more consistent calling yourself a deist.
quote:
"Certain" denomination? No, friend, your beliefs don't coincide with any denomination that I have ever heard of.

Hey, don't get me wrong, you believe what you wanna believe -- that's fine with me. But your stance seems as inconsistent as if I were to say I am a atheist who believes in a God.

It seems to me that you would be more consistent calling yourself a deist.


That's why the church I attend is non-denominational. It's set up more like a college class rather than a concert or typical church service you're familiar with. No speaking in tongues, phony faith healing, telling people they are going to Hell, or political rants from the pulpit.

It's a group of about 300 people, most of which have college degrees, many were either agnostic or atheists, who are simply looking for truth and ways to live better in society. Questions are encouraged and group discussions are held twice a month.

Following Christ's teachings doesn't make me a deist, it makes me a Christian. My beliefs coincide with what Christ taught, not what Baptists, Catholics, or CoC teaches.
(I am going to focus on just one of the points in your belief summary since addressing all of them would be confusing - if you care to clarify any of the other confusing stances, I am all ears.)

Hello Nashbama. Let us recap this point:

I compared your belief to Bill's by saying: "You believe that anyone who does not believe as you do will, at least, not have the reward you will have and, at worst will burn in the fiery depths hell."

You said, "Completely wrong, not even in the ballpark."

I said, "I do not understand how that can be: You do not believe in heaven or hell?"

You said, "I never said I didn't believe in Heaven or Hell, I said your statement was wrong."

So, my original statement is correct (or at least "in the ballpark."): You do believe in heaven and hell. If that is so, then it must "logically" follow that you believe in a deity that will send your soul to one or the other. If that is so, then you must believe you are eligible for heaven and others are destined for hell unless they correct your behavior.

Am I "in the ballpark" on this one so far? Again, this is a respectful convo'. I am sincerely trying to understand your seemingly conflicting stances.
quote:
So, my original statement is correct (or at least "in the ballpark."): You do believe in heaven and hell. If that is so, then it must "logically" follow that you believe in a deity that will send your soul to one or the other. If that is so, then you must believe you are eligible for heaven and others are destined for hell unless they correct your behavior.

Am I "in the ballpark" on this one so far? Again, this is a respectful convo'. I am sincerely trying to understand your seemingly conflicting stances.


No, still wrong. No one is "sent" to either. I never said I thought that non-believers were going to Hell and believers go to Heaven. You're still showing that you have a terrible misconception of Christianity.
quote:
So, in your view, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

That's not my decision to make.


I did not ask for you to make a decision. I simply asked who, "in your view" goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

But that's OK, Nashbama. You don't have to answer, of course. I believe I've made my point: The evidence indicates that you and Bill are cut from the same cloth but you are, for some reason, having a difficult time admitting that to yourself. I do understand that. It is a very real psychological barrier that most people have to some degree or another (including myself).

If you disagree, then perhaps you will consider honestly answering my questions?
quote:
I did not ask for you to make a decision. I simply asked who, "in your view" goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

But that's OK, Nashbama. You don't have to answer, of course. I believe I've made my point: The evidence indicates that you and Bill are cut from the same cloth but you are, for some reason, having a difficult time admitting that to yourself. I do understand that. It is a very real psychological barrier that most people have to some degree or another (including myself).

If you disagree, then perhaps you will consider honestly answering my questions?


My view is that a person's fate is their decision, not mine. It's not my place to judge them and as Christians, we are specifically told not to. Your attempt to force me into an answer that is not correct isn't going to work.

You did not make your point, but you did a good job to illustrate mine. Your view of Christianity is skewed and inaccurate. I answered every question honestly, but because they don't fit your definition of how you think Christians should answer, you couldn't accept them. That means you aren't looking for evidence, you are looking for personal confirmation that you are right. There is a big difference.

Proof of that is your statement that Old Billwalkee and I are "cut from the same cloth". Instead of reading my answers and considering the possibility that you may be mistaken in your views of Christianity, you try to find a way for you to continue to be correct regardless of the truth. That's not a trait of a true sceptic.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
So, in your view, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? That's not my decision to make.

I did not ask for you to make a decision. I simply asked who, "in your view" goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

But that's OK, Nashbama. You don't have to answer, of course. I believe I've made my point: The evidence indicates that you and Bill are cut from the same cloth but you are, for some reason, having a difficult time admitting that to yourself. I do understand that. It is a very real psychological barrier that most people have to some degree or another (including myself).

If you disagree, then perhaps you will consider honestly answering my questions?

Hi Fish, oh, excuse me, I mean Skeptik,

I will make you a deal. You answer your own question about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell -- then, I promise, I will answer the same question.

I know that, about six months ago, when you and I made a deal about reading a couple of books, you backed out. Are you going to back out now? Or will you tell us YOUR answer to your question?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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What are you scared of, Monet?

That Obama understands that matters of state are just that, and not matters of religion?

This is how our country was organized and flourished for 200 years. Only recently has religion been so important in American politics, and it has proven detrimental.

I didn't vote for Obama, but this is refreshing. We'll see how he works out.


DF

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