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I rarely agree with Cynthia Tucker on anything, She is about as liberal one one can get and a racsits to boot. But today she wtoe an article that gives me hope that she may not be a lost cause.

Click here for the full article: Link Here are some excerpts:

"Wisconsin authorities are preparing to prosecute a couple who allegedly allowed their young daughter to die from a treatable illness -- juvenile diabetes -- because their religion forbids modern medicine. It's a tragic case that raises thorny and uncomfortable questions about First Amendment religious freedoms, but police had no choice but to charge the parents. In 21st-century America, the law should intervene when antediluvian religious dogma causes harm to children."

"While the former president's refusal to expand stem cell research cannot be proven to have caused any deaths, his narrowmindedness impeded scientific efforts that may have made inroads toward a cure for just the illness that killed young Kara. Bush's administration routinely hid, impeded or contradicted scientific data on subjects ranging from contraception to climate change. "

"Among other changes, Obama is expected to reverse Bush's stance on expanding stem cell research. Like so much else about this new beginning, Obama's embrace of science is cause for hope."

" Unfortunately, the nation's newfound respect for scientific inquiry didn't last. In a 2007 GOP primary debate, three Republican presidential candidates raised their hands to reject evolution. Currently, the state of Texas is gearing up for another all-out battle over the teaching of creationism in public school classrooms.

Americans stand in stark contrast to the rest of the modern West in their rejection of evolution, since only 40 percent of Americans accept Darwin's theory, just ahead of Turkey. By contrast, more than 70 percent of the citizens of most other industrialized countries, from Norway to Spain to Japan, accept evolution as the foundation of modern biology.

"Just as contempt for science threatened America's survival in the days of the Cold War, so it does today. On a host of fronts -- from ending our dependence on foreign oil to finding new industries to shore up our economy -- the country needs to invest its resources in research. But it will be difficult for Obama to wrest away scarce funds for science if citizens don't understand its importance."

At least we have a president who'll lead us in the right direction, a man who believes in facts, data, evidence. But the rest of us have to follow. It's hard to head to the moon if you're leading a pack of flat-earthers.
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Just more recycled garbage straight out of the tired old liberal playbook:

1) Link President Bush to anything bad, no matter how you must flip and twist to do it;

2) Compare America unfavorably to other countries (now it's Canada and Mexico?!)

3) Insult religious people who want to protect life and therefore oppose CERTAIN types of stem cell research as "flat-earthers";

4) Lay the foundation that The Messiah Obama might not be able to save us all b/c the stupid little religious people are too dumb to know what's good for them.

Cynthia Tucker is as relevant to science and faith as my dog. She and my Jack Russell are both studied by one and clueless on the other.
quote:
Insult religious people who want to protect life and therefore oppose CERTAIN types of stem cell research as "flat-earthers";


Well, I'll probably agree more than I will disagree with your accusations. As I stated, I'm not fan of that woman. But I will take issue with the point wrote above. And she is correct about the growth of anti-iltellectualism. We see it on a daily basis here on this forum.

Having ethical considerations over stem cell research is one thing. Ethics is an evolving process that is open to change as evidence is presented.

But being against stems cell research because you claim your god says it is wrong is wholly ludicrous. It is a scientific matter that should be argued in the arena of science and ethics. Religion has no place in this debate because religion stops any further discussion under threat of the Allmighty.

I was (am) a Bush man. I am one of the few who liked him. However, his lack of embrace of science and reason was disturbing. We now have a president that at least appears to give a dang about evidence and will make rational choices based on the best evidence available.

Whether or not he lives up to that promise remains to be seen.
Liberal rubbish! So what if Mexico and Canada have us outsmarted on this one!

We don't need science! We have Jeesus!

We don't need no evolution, Jeesus! is the solution!

We don't need biology, we have Theology! And Jeesus! is the professor!

Yaka yaka putt putt homina homina!

Who needs prosperity when you have eternity?

Oh, you just watch! Yah ta ta ta. Jeesus! will return next Thursday morning, and when he does, he'll send all you four-eyed, eggheaded, lab-coat wearing, fish-eyed HEATHENS to Hayulllllll!

Ik bliginnynokk!

Bro. DF
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
Well, I'll probably agree more than I will disagree with your accusations. As I stated, I'm not fan of that woman. But I will take issue with the point wrote above. And she is correct about the growth of anti-iltellectualism. We see it on a daily basis here on this forum.

Having ethical considerations over stem cell research is one thing. Ethics is an evolving process that is open to change as evidence is presented.

But being against stems cell research because you claim your god says it is wrong is wholly ludicrous. It is a scientific matter that should be argued in the arena of science and ethics. Religion has no place in this debate because religion stops any further discussion under threat of the Allmighty.

I was (am) a Bush man. I am one of the few who liked him. However, his lack of embrace of science and reason was disturbing. We now have a president that at least appears to give a dang about evidence and will make rational choices based on the best evidence available.

Whether or not he lives up to that promise remains to be seen.


Skeptik I appreciate your attitude. I enjoy discussing things of a religious or scientific persuasion with you. I will point out something I've said before, b/c it is important and I really believe it:

There is really only one difference between someone with your beliefs and someone with mine (Christian or God-believer vs atheistic). We both place faith in something that we don't fully know - in fact it's faith that makes up the gap between what we truly know for a fact and what we believe - the only difference is the object of that faith. You place your faith in yourself and other men (scientists, philosophers, etc), and I place my faith in God. You think I'm unreasonable and unintellectual for believing in God and allowing His Word to shape my values and ethics, and I basically think the same thing about you allowing scientists and philosophers to shape yours.

It's no surprise that we would view science and ethics differently - we're looking at the same information but we are each viewing it through different filters and from different perspectives. If you see a building from the ground you would describe it a certain way, when I could see the exact same building from an airplane and describe it differently. Same target, different starting points and perspectives.

The one thing that I would ask is that you not attempt to represent a Christian's view of ethics and/or issues like the stem cell debate without fully understanding that view. When you misrepresent the other person's point of view or reasoning it's easy to make them look foolish, but that doesn't make it true. Just because someone has different values doesn't mean they are not applying thought and reason.

You and DeepFat (sorry to lump you two together like that, you deserve better) have both put words in the mouths of Christians and then used those words to paint them foolish. I believe you did it unintentionally, whereas DeepFat is clearly a hate-filled bigot so his intentions are obviously different.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Liberal rubbish! So what if Mexico and Canada have us outsmarted on this one!

We don't need science! We have Jeesus!

We don't need no evolution, Jeesus! is the solution!

We don't need biology, we have Theology! And Jeesus! is the professor!

Yaka yaka putt putt homina homina!

Who needs prosperity when you have eternity?

Oh, you just watch! Yah ta ta ta. Jeesus! will return next Thursday morning, and when he does, he'll send all you four-eyed, eggheaded, lab-coat wearing, fish-eyed HEATHENS to Hayulllllll!

Ik bliginnynokk!

Bro. DF


Your hatred is out of control. You really aren't representing your fellow atheists or your god (yourself) very well.
I represent nobody, and I am not god, thanks.

If I have to get you PO'd to get your attention, so be it. Skeptic is exactly right, the anti-intellectual attitude in this county will be our downfall if we don't correct it and now.

Prowler, I didn't see you condemn that family for letting the little girl die needlessly. How about it?

DF
quote:
You think I'm unreasonable and unintellectual for believing in God and allowing His Word to shape my values and ethics


Not at all. In fact, I don't know what we have exchanged barbs before. But know this: My vehemence is against the Bill Grays' and Extra260's of this world, not against the benign believers (perhaps like you?) who just want to be left alone with their gods.

On the other hand, if you insist that the earth is 6000 years old AND that this should be taught in a science class as scientifically accurate (among many other fundy beliefs) then you and I will certainly disagree with vehemence. Anti-intellectualism should be combated and ridiculed often and publicly or this country will be in ruins.

Now, to your point, I will admit that, somewhere along the line, I am forced to put my confidence (perhaps aka "faith") into some sort of foundation. You make claims to God. I claim the laws of physics and the Scientific Method. Ultimately, both may be proven to be the same. Some physics certainly meet every definition of "supernatural." If God is proven by physics, I'll be the very first to fall on my knees.

Alas, your faith cannot be proven or tested. Your beliefs are based on what you can discern with your own mind. Mine is based on observable, empirical data points as much as possible. Where that is not possible, I depend on my own moral compass - as faulty as it may be - or even will a** guesses. Wink

George Bush, bless his heart, listened to God instead of to the thousand voices that begged for reason. Whether or not that was ultimately good for the country will be determined by history. But the fact that this new president is a friend to science is very refreshing.

Good to trade barbs with you, too, Henhouse.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I represent nobody, and I am not god, thanks.

If I have to get you PO'd to get your attention, so be it. Skeptic is exactly right, the anti-intellectual attitude in this county will be our downfall if we don't correct it and now.

Prowler, I didn't see you condemn that family for letting the little girl die needlessly. How about it?

DF


I'm not PO'd, your bigotry disgusts me. Disgust is not the same thing as anger or irritation.

Regarding that girl's family, I believe they were wrong and it cost their daughter her earthly life.

My Christian faith does not teach what they claim to believe, so it's more likely that their twisted view came from a misguided person. When I see people do things that violate my faith-based beliefs, I almost always see a human being (usually a self-righteous hypocritical preacher) standing behind them pushing them in the wrong direction. I don't know that for a fact in this case, but I would expect to find that they were taught wrong by someone who led them here by twisting scriptural principles or words. The one thing I do know is that those people must really believe it or their belief would've cracked before their daughter was gone.

Regardless, it was wrong and I have no basis to believe that God would approve. I firmly believe the miracles of modern science, including medicine, to be gifts from God working through men and they should be used and appreciated. I have two daughters that have had significant medical problems their whole lives, and every day I thank God for the men and women that make Children's Hospital and places like it possible.

I also realize that there are secular implications to this situation. Just as the parents are free to practice their religious beliefs, that little girl had a right to life as well. On which side does the law fall in this case? I have no idea, but I'll leave that up to the legal experts.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
My vehemence is against the Bill Grays' and Extra260's of this world, not against the benign believers (perhaps like you?) who just want to be left alone with their gods.

On the other hand, if you insist that the earth is 6000 years old AND that this should be taught in a science class as scientifically accurate (among many other fundy beliefs) then you and I will certainly disagree with vehemence. Anti-intellectualism should be combated and ridiculed often and publicly or this country will be in ruins.

...Alas, your faith cannot be proven or tested. Your beliefs are based on what you can discern with your own mind. Mine is based on observable, empirical data points as much as possible.


I don't know BillGray or Extra260, but I know that I don't read Bill's posts. Not because I have something against his beliefs, but because they sound too much like sermons. I end up reading the first paragraph or two and then tune out. I haven't spent enough time chatting with either of them to know what they believe.

On another note, you have never heard me claim that Creationism should be taught as fact in schools. Presenting it as an alternative theory to the theory of evolution doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I've never pushed it. Any good scientist knows that all angles should be examined to come to a proper conclusion. It would go against what they practice every day in other areas of science to purposely exclude all theories except one in any situation.

You said that my faith cannot be proven or tested, but that is dead wrong. My faith has been proven strong in some situations, and I have proven myself to be lacking in faith in other situations. But my faith is tested every day, sometimes in life-altering ways.

If you meant that my beliefs cannot be tested or proven scientifically, I believe you are wrong but we would never agree on that. I see things with my own eyes everyday that confirm my beliefs, but I understand that would not mean anything to you. I think you will be able to relate when I say that I don't find scientists to be infallible, so therefore I don't stand on them as the foundation of my beliefs. Until scientists can create earth and life from nothing, then I'll always see them as useful but limited in their scope and abilities. I'll see them as brilliant people who study God's earth and his people to know as much about it as possible. And I'll be thankful for them.
quote:
If you meant that my beliefs cannot be tested or proven scientifically, I believe you are wrong but we would never agree on that.



Probably not.

So, until you insist that Creationism be taught in a science class, until you defend the poor dead girl's parents for relying on God instead of medicine, until you insist that your beliefs are correct under the penalty of eternal dammnaiton, we will just have to find something else to debate about.
Prowler,

Glad to hear you think the little girl should have seen a doctor.

Now, regarding my sermon above, I got all that language, including the gobbledygoop, from the documentary "Jesus Camp".

What should really chap your hide is not me mocking it, but that this contagious mental illness is actually taught to children as reality.

Have you seen that film? It's quite well made, but to think that that sort of child abuse occurs in America is shocking and saddening.

Check it out, get back to me. I'll be around.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Have you seen that film? It's quite well made


I was quite well made but very difficult to watch. Bill woud think it wonderful and full of hope. I am certain of that.



I didn't see any AK-47s, I didn't see anyone telling these kids to kill infidels, i didn't see anyone telling kids to kill in the name of God.

I did see people exercising their constitutional rights to "Freedom of exercise of Religion".

Like it or not, it is their right. I don't agrre with you on your atheistic beliefs, but many people died so that you could be wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
I didn't see any AK-47s,


Evil comes in may forms. Some quite blatant. Some so subtle you don't notice it. I'm not sure which is more dangerous to the human race in the long run.

Some of those poor kids do not stand a chance in this 21st century.



So now you are an education expert. Frankly, I have seen many fine you men and women, raised in Christian homes go on to great careers in various fields. Some are even teachers in colbert County and Muscle Shoals school systems. Eeker

They have done quite well thankyou.
quote:
Originally posted by George Sand:
It's funny how Nancy Reagan didn't follow Bush's policies on stem cell research after if affected her family. Amazing what something hitting close to home will do to change your thought processes and political leanings.


-------------------------------------

How is that funny?

Did she ever state publicly her feelings on the use of stem cells, and then change her mind in favor of their use, as you assert?

It's not the Republicans who walk in 'lockstep'.
quote:
I did see people exercising their constitutional rights to "Freedom of exercise of Religion".


That's it? That's freakin' it??

The guilt trips they threw onto those kids means nothing? The peer pressure trips?

Teaching those kids that uttering gobbledygoop means anything except that they've been infected with a mental disease?

The anti-intellectual and anti-science indoctrination doesn't bother you at all??

Taking Harry Potter seriously isn't a clue?

All this child abuse, this mental and emotional abuse, this educational abuse, and all you can say is that people are standing on their Constitutional rights?

Sick, sick, sick.

I weep for those children, who must now either find a way out of the hole in which they've been placed or live their lives in ignorance and superstition.

They need to have their Uncle DF lecture at Jesus Camp. "And now, for something completely different".

DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
I did see people exercising their constitutional rights to "Freedom of exercise of Religion".


That's it? That's freakin' it??

The guilt trips they threw onto those kids means nothing? The peer pressure trips?

Teaching those kids that uttering gobbledygoop means anything except that they've been infected with a mental disease?

The anti-intellectual and anti-science indoctrination doesn't bother you at all??

Taking Harry Potter seriously isn't a clue?

All this child abuse, this mental and emotional abuse, this educational abuse, and all you can say is that people are standing on their Constitutional rights?

Sick, sick, sick.

I weep for those children, who must now either find a way out of the hole in which they've been placed or live their lives in ignorance and superstition.

They need to have their Uncle DF lecture at Jesus Camp. "And now, for something completely different".

DF




IT'S NOW OFFICIAL FOLKS. DEEP FAT AND HIS ATHEIST CREW WOULD ELIMINATE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IN THE NAME OF HIS VERSION OF SCIENCE.

NOW PEOPLE, WHO POSES THE GREATER THREAT?

Atheism or Christianity?
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Prowler,
Glad to hear you think the little girl should have seen a doctor.
Now, regarding my sermon above, I got all that language, including the gobbledygoop, from the documentary "Jesus Camp".
What should really chap your hide is not me mocking it, but that this contagious mental illness is actually taught to children as reality.
Have you seen that film? It's quite well made, but to think that that sort of child abuse occurs in America is shocking and saddening.
Check it out, get back to me. I'll be around.

DF


I'll add "Jesus Camp" to my list of movies to watch in the future, although I seldom have time to watch anything anymore. Don't make the mistake of thinking that whoever made that movie has anything to do with my faith or anyone else's outside of their area. And FYI your hate is showing through when you refer to religious faith as "child abuse" and "mental illness". I suppose you find a welcome audience for your bigoted hate-filled rhetoric out in Hollywood.

While we're trading film suggestions, you might want to check out "The Passion of the Christ" and get back to me. You'll learn a little bit about the man who died for you in spite of your hatefulness.
Ex, please don't be a moron. I have never suggested that Jesus Camp be made illegal. You are putting words into my mouth and that's not honest.

But, simply because something is legal does not make it right.

I call upon your, and everyone's, decency to see this abomination for what it is, a horrible brainwashing of innocent children, and to stop it within YOUR community.

10-12 year old kids are not suitable subjects for the powerful psychological techniques used by Jesus Camp. Many of those kids will come away confused and emotionally scarred.

Kids that age should have more normal concerns, such as mastering fractions and learning to throw a curveball. Psychological manipulation of them to accept concepts beyond their comprehension is simply cruel.

Please have the decency not to send your kids to anything like this, at least until they are older and can think for themselves. The kids in that film are mentally defenseless at that age.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by gracies old man:
quote:
Originally posted by George Sand:
It's funny how Nancy Reagan didn't follow Bush's policies on stem cell research after if affected her family. Amazing what something hitting close to home will do to change your thought processes and political leanings.


-------------------------------------

How is that funny?
Did she ever state publicly her feelings on the use of stem cells, and then change her mind in favor of their use, as you assert?
It's not the Republicans who walk in 'lockstep'.


Gracies, George has done it again - forcing me to call "playbook". Those tired old liberal arguments like George's are so old and worn out they're not even a challenge. Let's see, turn your playbook to page 8 and you'll find: "Identify ANYONE who claims to be a conservative, socially or fiscally, preferably a white one who holds some sort of Judeo-Christian religious beliefs, and claim that since they disagreed on any given subject then that automatically negates the conservative point of view. Don't worry about the same technique being used back at you, because as you know liberals are never held to any standard or principle."

Now George: 1) Nancy Reagan did follow President Bush's policies, she just disagreed with them; 2) Nancy Reagan is not a spokesperson for all Christians/Conservatives or anyone else except Nancy Reagan; 3) There is no record that she ever changed her beliefs on the subject.

I understand that the libs on here want to attack all things that are NOT liberal, but at least drop all the red herrings and deal with the issue at hand. People who value life and recognize the right to life believe it is morally and ethically wrong to end an innocent life for research purposes, especially when the research that has been conducted hasn't cured anything. The liberal rhetoric is that they assume it could so since there's a one-in-a-million chance then we should try.

It's "funny" to borrow your term George, how liberals are opposed to alternative research like using stem cells from other sources that could produce the same results. No, the stem cells MUST come from destroying embryos. If it's about the results, why do they care about the source? Could it be that it's really about further reducing the value of life and moving their agenda forward? Hmmm. Maybe.

The same argument goes for birth control and abortion issues. No liberal can trump the argument that abstinence before marriage and fidelity during marriage is the best method for avoiding STD's and illegitimate pregnancy. It's the only 99.99999999999999999999999% effective method (I'm counting Jesus' birth in that percentage). Birth control and protection methods are the second-most effective. But yet they HATE abstinence education and want to force birth control education on our kids in school. Wow, what a coincidence that their method takes the right to teach morals away from the parents and puts it in the hands of liberals like the teacher's unions.

Abortion? There are thousands of families all over this country that are begging for the chance to adopt a child, but you want find a liberal EVER telling mothers-to-be that if they don't want or can't raise their kid then they should give it up for adoption. Nope, the only option they'll push is abortion. Kill it. And they have the audacity to try to manipulate facts and avoid science by claiming that life doesn't occur until the third trimester. No, wait, Barack Obama believes its OK to kill them outside the womb if they survive a botched abortion attempt. So I guess life doesn't occur until they take the baby home from the hospital? But why, when there are all those people begging for babies to adopt and there are government agencies who'll make it happen for you? What is the harm in giving the child a chance to live as guaranteed by the constitution? As usual, it's all about reducing the value of life and pushing their agenda.

Sad.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Ex, please don't be a moron. I have never suggested that Jesus Camp be made illegal. You are putting words into my mouth and that's not honest.

But, simply because something is legal does not make it right.

I call upon your, and everyone's, decency to see this abomination for what it is, a horrible brainwashing of innocent children, and to stop it within YOUR community.

10-12 year old kids are not suitable subjects for the powerful psychological techniques used by Jesus Camp. Many of those kids will come away confused and emotionally scarred.

Kids that age should have more normal concerns, such as mastering fractions and learning to throw a curveball. Psychological manipulation of them to accept concepts beyond their comprehension is simply cruel.

Please have the decency not to send your kids to anything like this, at least until they are older and can think for themselves. The kids in that film are mentally defenseless at that age.

DF


Deep, Exactly how many children do you have or have raised? And if children, how many marriages have you raised these children in?
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
Deep, Exactly how many children do you have or have raised? And if children, how many marriages have you raised these children in?


All of that is none of anyone's business around here. Besides, this discussion is not about me, it's about perverts poisoning children in Jesus Camp.

DF



We are just trying to ascertain your qualifications when it comes to child rearing. We will put you in the "No Real Experience" category. that is for those who haven't moved from "Theory" to "Experience".
quote:
The same argument goes for birth control and abortion issues. No liberal can trump the argument that abstinence before marriage and fidelity during marriage is the best method for avoiding STD's and illegitimate pregnancy.

It would be my bet that nary a person on this thread abstained from anything prior to marriage. Why do you expect anyone else to do what you couldn't? And if you did, then you are the sad geek who lived at home until the age of 35 and played D and D with the other nerds.
quote:
Originally posted by George Sand:
quote:
The same argument goes for birth control and abortion issues. No liberal can trump the argument that abstinence before marriage and fidelity during marriage is the best method for avoiding STD's and illegitimate pregnancy.

It would be my bet that nary a person on this thread abstained from anything prior to marriage. Why do you expect anyone else to do what you couldn't? And if you did, then you are the sad geek who lived at home until the age of 35 and played D and D with the other nerds.

Not me - I was an all star athlete, certified playa, and **** good looking, and I abstained from sex for a long long time.

Just remember - time is relative Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by George Sand:
It would be my bet that nary a person on this thread abstained from anything prior to marriage. Why do you expect anyone else to do what you couldn't? And if you did, then you are the sad geek who lived at home until the age of 35 and played D and D with the other nerds.


PLAYBOOK. Come on George, you can do better than that? Try actually discussing the point.
quote:
Gracies, George has done it again - forcing me to call "playbook". Those tired old liberal arguments like George's are so old and worn out they're not even a challenge.


I wasn't making an argument. I was making a point. My point was this: When something affects one at home, their opinion is often very different in practice than what it was in theory.
Your rhetoric is hardly a challenge for me either.

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