As an Atheist I was very pleased with the outcome of the Thursday September 30th debate at the University of North Alabama.
The topic, "God does not exist" was defended by Blair Scott, communications director of American Atheists Inc., while Kyle Butt, christian apologist with Apologetics Press argued against.
It was a sterling example of the dichotomy between the two sides. The black and white certainties of religion versus the multi-colored possibilities of reality.
Blair in his initial remarks admitted the impossible task of proving a negative anywhere except in mathematics. But challenged the audience to do the research for themselves. Butt told them to read their bible, and boasted he had already won the debate.
And there lies the heart of the matter. Christians are focused on concepts and philosophies that predate contemporary knowledge, and insist the evolution of understanding over the millennium is made  irrelevant by ancient "inspired text."
Atheist, however aren't content with easy answers, and don't shy away from doing the necessary research or from accepting unconventional ideas.
Both sides got what they were seeking. The Christian Apologist reinforced the certainty of their base, and the Atheist affirmed the need to explore all aspects of reality. It was a win win event.
Original Post

Nice extrapolation. We're all the same except where we're willing to stop our search for answers about our universe and declare that no more can be known. For some, many important questions were adequately answered millennia ago. Atheists know and love that human knowledge about everything is progressively evolving and that each new breakthrough ignites dozens of new questions to pursue.

Not all Christian Apologists are against exploration of reality..I think balance is key. Faith will never be presented in an evidentiary manner- it goes against it's very definition- belief without evidence. 

I'm glad the debate went well. Would love to read a transcript. 

You know what gets me? That Christians are sometimes put in the light as "non-thinkers". 

My question is this- does being a believer in God, in Jesus make one stupid, or "naive".? 
No. It's just another realm of our being- physical, emotional, intellectual, spiritual.

Can't all aspects of our being just get along?  

Hi vp

 

Believers aren't all stupid by default just as atheists aren't all intelligent by default.

As to your first point, it has always been my experience that I can only push so far in the "exploration of reality" with every believer. How far is dependent on the person and their beliefs, but EVERY believer I've ever dealt with has a point at which they will no longer follow the same logic and evidence that has served them so well in life. It is at that point that that conversation is ended, one way or another, by the believer. It ALWAYS ends with the believer closing the door to possible answers.

Originally Posted by vplee123:

Not all Christian Apologists are against exploration of reality..I think balance is key. Faith will never be presented in an evidentiary manner- it goes against it's very definition- belief without evidence. 

I'm glad the debate went well. Would love to read a transcript. 

You know what gets me? That Christians are sometimes put in the light as "non-thinkers". 

My question is this- does being a believer in God, in Jesus make one stupid, or "naive".? 
No. It's just another realm of our being- physical, emotional, intellectual, spiritual.

Can't all aspects of our being just get along?  

Veep, truth is the key.  The world cannot be both only 6000 years old, as Butt says, and billions of years old as every science says.  We must choose.

 

DF

At the end of the day beliefs are just beliefs. This is a debate that has been going on since the beginning of time. It will continue long after me and you are gone. While you may eventually convince someone why you believe the things you believe, that person is free to believe what they want to believe. As are we all.

Why do you think there are so many denominations and religions? Because people can never agree 100% about god and religion. They never will. Life goes on.

Believe what you want to believe and don't try to force those beliefs on those around you. Live and let live.

I agree with all that is above- the world is a kazillion years old. The creation story? Well, It's enough for me to accept that God had a hand in it, and that is simply enough. 

And you are right- there is a point in which believers just say "enough" already. Because it is impossible to prove the presence of God in the open. WE can all have personal revelations, and moments in our lives in which we feel the Hand of God, but that cannot be conveyed to another person with the same convincing. 

"live and let live"= AMEN! Whatever path, whatever beliefs you possess- execute them fairly and honestly- live a life of compassion and kindness. So whatever life you live, live it to the fullest, live it well, and live it like there's no tomorrow!  

Originally Posted by dark dreamer:
Why do you think there are so many denominations and religions? Because people can never agree 100% about god and religion. They never will. Life goes on.

Believe what you want to believe and don't try to force those beliefs on those around you. Live and let live.

_____________________________

Good points. I've always said you can ask 10 different people what one scripture means & you'll get 10 different answers.

Sadly, there will always be those like Bill Gray that will try to force his beliefs & how he sees the Bible on others. It's all because he & others like him believe they have to work their way to Heaven by telling others what the Bible says.

It's all about that "Soul-Winner's Crown" - they think they have to labor to save souls from the fires of Hell.

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
 

It's all about that "Soul-Winner's Crown" - they think they have to labor to save souls from the fires of Hell.

 

Yes- and then they argue that works are irrelevant to salvation. 

Originally Posted by vplee123:

        "live and let live"= AMEN! Whatever path, whatever beliefs you possess- execute them fairly and honestly- live a life of compassion and kindness. So whatever life you live, live it to the fullest, live it well, and live it like there's no tomorrow!


I love that.

Hi Senior,

 

I find your opening comments very revealing.  You write:

 

As an Atheist I was very pleased with the outcome of the Thursday September 30th debate at the University of North Alabama.  The topic, "God does not exist" was defended by Blair Scott, communications director of American Atheists Inc., while Kyle Butt, christian apologist with Apologetics Press argued against.

 

Notice that you capitalize Atheist, Thursday, University of North Alabama, Blair Scott, American Atheists Inc, Apologetics Press, etc. -- but, you do not capitalize Christian.  Why?  Was this merely a convenient oversight -- or a purposeful slight?

 

Most people do not capitalize Atheist because it is not a proper name.  Yet, Christian is a proper name -- a form taken from the name of Jesus Christ.   So, what was it, Senior, oversight or contempt?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, haven't you made the claim that atheism is a religion? So I will ask you, why do you not capitalize the word atheist or atheism when you post it? Is it an oversight or contempt on your part, or is it that you don't think atheism is a religion and only make that claim thinking it's some sort of insult? Could you clear that up for us??

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, atheists will not be happy to see that Theocracy come

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

They are talking about beliefs fireman. What do you think your neighbor would be doing that might kill him? Anything anyone does in life has the potential to kill them. It's not your place to tell your neighbor they should or shouldn't do something as long as they aren't harming you or anyone else or breaking the law.

Well there really is some common ground here...yes I did attend, and did intend to bring up the obvious condesention toward Atheists in the grammar of certain individuals here. I also want to apologize for the error in the topic...this new iPad has different ideas about what I mean to say sometimes.
We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.
Originally Posted by SeniorCoffee:
We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.

-----------------------------------------------------

So Coffee, Those dirty christians cut off your nose, or did you cut off your nose

to spite your salvation?

 

.

Originally Posted by SeniorCoffee:
Well there really is some common ground here...yes I did attend, and did intend to bring up the obvious condesention toward Atheists in the grammar of certain individuals here. I also want to apologize for the error in the topic...this new iPad has different ideas about what I mean to say sometimes.
We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.

 

 

The last time I checked, Jesus Christ was a proper name, ergo capitalized. Atheism or atheist is not. Shall we no longer capitalize Buddha, etal.? Why capitalize anything since it obviously takes time away from typing? I thought one point by atheists on this forum is that they follow rules in the same manner a Christian or Jew would, but perhaps not?

 

How sad that one would capitalize Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler, but not Christ...

 

Pedantic? Another word that has fallen on hard times it would seem.

quote:   Originally Posted by vplee123:
quote:   Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

It's all about that "Soul-Winner's Crown" - they think they have to labor to save souls from the fires of Hell.

Yes- and then they argue that works are irrelevant to salvation. 

Hi Chick and VP,

 

True, Christian believers are told by Jesus Christ to win souls -- Matthew 28-18-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15, plus other Scripture passages.

 

VP, you overlook one wee fact -- the "they" you mention ARE already born again Christian believers.  Otherwise, why would they care about saving souls? 

 

And, as you so well pointed out, "they" -- being Christian believers -- will try to save souls.   However, notice which came first.  FIRST, we were saved (by grace, through faith ALONE).  THEN, we do the "good works" of sharing the Gospel with folks in the hope of bringing them to salvation in Jesus Christ. 

 

Therefore, "works" is not the cause of our salvation -- but, instead, is the result of our salvation.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:
quote:   Originally Posted by SeniorCoffee:
Well there really is some common ground here...yes I did attend, and did intend to bring up the obvious condesention (sic) toward Atheists in the grammar of certain individuals here. I also want to apologize for the error in the topic...this new iPad has different ideas about what I mean to say sometimes.  We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.

The last time I checked, Jesus Christ was a proper name, ergo capitalized.  Atheism or atheist is not. Shall we no longer capitalize Buddha, et al ?  Why capitalize anything since it obviously takes time away from typing?  I thought one point by atheists on this forum is that they follow rules in the same manner a Christian or Jew would, but perhaps not? [quote}

 

How sad that one would capitalize Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler, but not Christ...

 

Pedantic?  Another word that has fallen on hard times it would seem.


Hi Firenze,

 

All I can add to your well written response:  AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:
Originally Posted by SeniorCoffee:
Well there really is some common ground here...yes I did attend, and did intend to bring up the obvious condesention toward Atheists in the grammar of certain individuals here. I also want to apologize for the error in the topic...this new iPad has different ideas about what I mean to say sometimes.
We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.

 

 

 I thought one point by atheists on this forum is that they follow rules in the same manner a Christian or Jew would, but perhaps not?

 

 

I am not sure what you mean by this Fire. What rules is it that we atheist have said we follow? Are you talking about a doctrine as Christians or Jews would? We have no doctrine. To be atheist you need only have no belief in gods. Period. Other than that atheist vary in many ways. No one is expected to think or behave in a certain manner or go by a set of rules to be atheist. One of the things I find interesting when meeting with a group of atheist is how many ideas and opinions are represented. I usually learn something.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:
quote:   Originally Posted by SeniorCoffee:
Well there really is some common ground here...yes I did attend, and did intend to bring up the obvious condesention (sic) toward Atheists in the grammar of certain individuals here. I also want to apologize for the error in the topic...this new iPad has different ideas about what I mean to say sometimes.  We are all in this together, and the existence of Atheists, with a capital "A" would be unnecessary if capital "C" christians weren't so pedantic about their beliefs.

The last time I checked, Jesus Christ was a proper name, ergo capitalized.  Atheism or atheist is not. Shall we no longer capitalize Buddha, et al ?  Why capitalize anything since it obviously takes time away from typing?  I thought one point by atheists on this forum is that they follow rules in the same manner a Christian or Jew would, but perhaps not? [quote}

 

How sad that one would capitalize Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler, but not Christ...

 

Pedantic?  Another word that has fallen on hard times it would seem.


Hi Firenze,

 

All I can add to your well written response:  AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

Why would you both look over the fact that SeniorCoffee capitalized Christian several times in his original post? Bill picked out the one example of what is obviously a typo and ran with it. It is amazing to me the things that many Christians will focus on and miss the bigger picture. I guess that just comes with the territory though.

Originally Posted by I am the Fireman:

        Live and let live???? Really?


So if I see my neighbor is about to do something that could potentially kill him I'm just supposed to live and let live and let him die??? What a crock. Maybe you could do that but I for sure couldn't. I would do whatever it took to save him.


Uggghhhhmmmm... We are talking about religion and religious beliefs.
Originally Posted by BFred07:
I can't speak for everyone else but yes, it is out of contempt that I don't capitalize the first letter of words such as islam, buddhist, atheist, mormon, etc.
___________________________________________________________________________
I capitalize all of those words (except atheist), if for no other reason than out of respect for the language. If the atheists ever had an organization, oh let's say, Atheists International, or something like that, I would capitalize that too, because it would then be a proper name.
If I want to show contempt for something I know how to do that, but I do it without warping the rules of the language. But that's just me...

 

I mean, really?? Is that all it takes to offend some Christians? A lower case letter? You guys are dramatically over-sensitive. Please get over yourselves and be patient. I'm sure the creator of the universe will duly torture the godless terrorists that horrify your grammar sensitivities.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

       I mean, really?? Is that all it takes to offend some Christians? A lower case letter? You guys are dramatically over-sensitive. Please get over yourselves and be patient. I'm sure the creator of the universe will duly torture the godless terrorists that horrify your grammar sensitivities.





Isn't religion fun? Now you see why so many of us want nothing to do with it. The drama, indifference and pettiness never ends.
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

 

Why would you both look over the fact that SeniorCoffee capitalized Christian several times in his original post? Bill picked out the one example of what is obviously a typo and ran with it. It is amazing to me the things that many Christians will focus on and miss the bigger picture. I guess that just comes with the territory though.

____________

It is typical of those with a cultist agenda to ignore anything that disproves their thesis - pretend it's not there and doesn't exist.  Kinda like evolution.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by dark dreamer:
Why do you think there are so many denominations and religions? Because people can never agree 100% about god and religion. They never will. Life goes on.

Believe what you want to believe and don't try to force those beliefs on those around you. Live and let live.

_____________________________

Good points. I've always said you can ask 10 different people what one scripture means & you'll get 10 different answers.

Sadly, there will always be those like Bill Gray that will try to force his beliefs & how he sees the Bible on others. It's all because he & others like him believe they have to work their way to Heaven by telling others what the Bible says.

It's all about that "Soul-Winner's Crown" - they think they have to labor to save souls from the fires of Hell.

 

As for the rules of English I'll leave that to those of you that wish to critique such and I'm not offended by someone not capitalizing the name Christian however I know they do for a reason and that's fine with them and not worth arguing about.

 

In addressing, though, the question why are there so many denominations and religions?  That is a two part question actually.  The fact that there are so many religions should be a cause to question what is common about that fact.  There is a need, a desire, a craving built within the Human person to be united with the creator.  I realize that many will not accept that word creator because of the adamant belief that there is no God.  Still you have a desire or inner thirst whether you admit it or not else why such efforts to reconcile where we came from and how we got here?  Questions that exist and by finding the answers somehow maybe that craving or that thirst inside, for knowledge, or whatever, will be satisfied.  Why the question to understand the "Big Bang" or "Singularity" or explain life for the evolutionist.  Just like people of religion they strive and have a quest to meet to reconcile with that from which they came.  It is built in to everyone. 

 

It is up to each person to reconcile the question as to which religion is right?  What answer is Right? to solve the questions we have or the needs we have.  So I propose that the number of religions should be a cause to question why is it that so many people are looking for GOD?  If God doesn't exist.  If we are here by accident then why so many unrelated peoples all have a thirst or a need for God or to meet God, however they name God.  Thus the quest to find and decide which is the real God, if God exist, which I do believe God does, and I believe God can be found and all questions answered. 

 

As for why there are so many denominations, while that could apply to certain other religions as Islam has Sunnis and Shiites, but the term so many kind of restricts it to Christianity.  My suggested answer to that question is because people are human, flawed, and not perfect.  It is our own nature, we are born with , it's flaws and differences that create differences between us, biases and prejudices.   Likewise it creates divisions based greatly upon how we interpret the Scriptures, with respect to Christianity.  Some denominations are more liberal, some more conservative, some more legalistic and still others divided on smaller issues.  It all gets down to the fact that we are humans. 

 

Is there ONE Real and correct Church???   Absolutely but it's not within a building of stone, brick, iron, steel or wood.  The one REAL Church is held together with God's Holy Spirit through faith in Christ and it is that same Holy Spirit that reveals unto each Christian, that makes up the whole body of Christ, the exact job or task that God has for that person.  The Same Holy Spirit provides different gifts for different believers but all together they make up the Body of Christ the Church and it's whole, as I believe it to be, will not be assembled until the End days just before the Day of the Lord when Christ shall gather all the Church together.  So while on Earth there will continue to be dissensions and  various Churches that conflict with each other but in doing so that is just evidence that we are still in the flesh and more in need to rely upon God for direction.   The Churches may be different but they will all tell you one thing.  Regarding religion and which is right (according to them and for them) they will tell you the one that has not only a Living God who came to Earth, lived among it's peoples, claimed to be God, said He came to meet needs of people and ask for people to accept Him for who He was provided a perfect blood sacrifice for mankind's sins, imperfections, and sin nature by dying on the Cross but to prove Himself legitimate rose from the grave, and ascended into Heaven with the promise that He would return again in the culmination of time given unto people, a period of Grace, to give time to accept or deny Him.  We chose to accept a religion with a Living God, Living Savior that is not laying in a grave somewhere but existing and living, awaiting till the per-ordained time plays out. 

 

In Old Testament days and under the old Covenant God demanded obedience, brought wrath upon earth and peoples due to disobedience.  Jesus Christ was God come to Earth, to man, as a man, to prove who He was through miracles and signs, then to create/fufill a new agreement/Covenant with mankind, as promised to Abraham, one of Grace and of obedience to God through Faith not fear and of reprisals.  God's Judgment will fall again, one last time upon Earth but this period, that we live in, is a period of Grace, God's Grace unto mankind.  It is a period of Faith.

 

It's up to each person to believe what is right and correct for them, the options are out there and each person is presented a chance to decide while in their fleshly physical life.   That is my own opinion and belief.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
I can't speak for everyone else but yes, it is out of contempt that I don't capitalize the first letter of words such as islam, buddhist, atheist, mormon, etc.

This tells a lot about you and does not affect in any way the religions you denigrate.

Originally Posted by dark dreamer:
At the end of the day beliefs are just beliefs. This is a debate that has been going on since the beginning of time. It will continue long after me and you are gone. While you may eventually convince someone why you believe the things you believe, that person is free to believe what they want to believe. As are we all.

Why do you think there are so many denominations and religions? Because people can never agree 100% about god and religion. They never will. Life goes on.

Believe what you want to believe and don't try to force those beliefs on those around you. Live and let live.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Very well said.  Thank you for posting such an insightful comment!!!!!!

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Post

×
×
×
×