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Detroit's "underpaid" top auto execs

P Pogo142Post Master
Of course the Corporate Media blame unions and workers salaries for Detroit's problems. Here is a good article on management. The right wing tells us CEO's deserve their pay but not workers. Workers are supposed to lower our salaries so we can compete with sweatshops over seas so the CEO's can make huge profits.

There are a couple of good articles in the site.


See the USA in your ... (Part Two): mytown.ca (2.55e: pr)

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Detroit's "underpaid" top auto execs

By Sam Pizzigati
Too Much
December 1, 2008

ALL EYES this week will be on the return of the auto industry’s Big Three to Capitol Hill. No one knows for sure what will happen with the industry’s bailout request. But one thing seems certain: The Big Three’s CEOs couldn’t possibly give another performance as dreadfully disastrous as their appearance before Congress last month.

The auto chiefs started that fiasco by flying down to Washington on private jets. Then, in their testimony, they came across as arrogantly greedy when asked if, in return for a bailout, they would consider dropping their salaries to $1. "I think I’m OK where I am," pronounced Ford CEO Alan Mulally, who took home $21.67 million last year.

Detroit’s Big Three all, of course, maintain small armies of PR consultants, and these PR types have no doubt been advising their chief executive clients that insisting on CEO pay business-as-usual may not be the best way to win friends and influence people. So how could Detroit’s top execs have behaved, in public, so cluelessly?

Simple Answer

The simple answer: Detroit’s top executives simply don’t understand the fuss about their compensation. Deep in their hearts, they consider themselves underpaid.

Ford's Mulally and his automaker CEO peers actually do have some reason to feel that way. Other executives at U.S. enterprises just as troubled as theirs make far more money than they do. Last year, for instance, Merrill Lynch CEO John Thain pocketed $83.1 million, and the melting Merrill certainly had no better of a year than GM or Ford. In 2007 overall, CEOs at America's 10 top financial services firms collected a combined $320 million, in a year that the companies they led "reported mortgage-related losses that totaled $55 billion."

Amazing Pay Differences

On the other hand, by any rational yardstick, U.S. automaker top execs have absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel put upon at pay time. They take home far more in rewards than auto executives outside the United States who compete in the same global marketplace.

Just how much more first became vividly evident ten years ago when Chrysler merged into Daimler-Benz, the world-class German car company. Daimler-Benz, at the time, outpaced Chrysler on every standard corporate performance measure from revenue to profit. But executives at Chrysler, remarkably, were taking home considerably bigger paychecks. In 1997, Daimler’s top gun, Juergen Schrempp, earned an estimated $2.5 million. Chrysler’s Robert Eaton that same year took home $16 million, over six times more. Chrysler’s top five execs, together, collected $50 million in 1997 compensation. Daimler’s top ten execs pulled in only $11 million.

Pay differences between American and Japanese auto executives run even wider. In the fiscal year that ended in March 2007, Toyota’s top 32 executives — a group that included CEO Katsuaki Watanabe — together pulled in $7.8 million in bonuses on top of salaries of $12.1 million. For the comparable period, one single GM exec, CEO Rick Wagoner, raked in $10.2 million.

The Old Days

Ironically, Ford’s current CEO, Alan Mulally, came into the auto industry from Boeing, a company with a relatively egalitarian — by American standards — pay tradition. In Boeing’s golden years, observes author David Kusnet, whose new book explores the aircraft giant’s history, a Boeing CEO would never have considered flying into Washington in a luxurious private jet.

"Even though Boeing makes jets," Kusnet noted last month after the Big Three’s initial bailout request, "flying around in corporate ones would have been as alien to them as wearing Gucci loafers."

Back in 1969, Kusnet relates, Boeing CEO T. A. Wilson took a regular commercial flight to Washington to testify before a congressional committee. "Instead of a limousine," he adds, "Wilson was met at the airport by Geoff Stamper, the son of Boeing's second-in-command, Mal Stamper. Geoff Stamper was a student at American University, and he drove Wilson into town in a rusted jalopy."

America’s automakers, lawmakers are now declaring, are going to have to transform their industry if they want to get their hands on taxpayer dollars. But America needs a transformation that goes far beyond how the auto industry makes cars. We need a transformation of our entire CEO pay culture.

Copyright 2008 by the Council on International and Public Affairs

Sam Pizzigati edits Too Much, the online weekly on excess and inequality.

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NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
Pogo, how much should an automotive assembly line worker make an hour? Real number only, don't dodge the question.

There are just a few reasons that the automotive companies are having problems. The unions force them to overpay, they are unable to get rid of unproductive workers, poor management, and they produce crappy vehicles. Ford's transmissions are notorious for going bad after 100k miles.
P Pogo142Post Master
Their Editorial is interesting and I think people should check it out.

This is just another step in the war against workers that started under Reagan to increase Corporate Profits. Corporate Globalization ends good paying jobs in America and ships them to overseas sweatshops to increase Corporate profits.

Management made bad decsions but we need to save our industries. The workers built the cars they were expected to.

A dreadful outcome for Detroit | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

I have watched as they destroyed the Family Farms and manufacturing jobs while the Corporate Media Pundits blame workers. Corporate Profits are soaring. The liberals and progressives have stood by the workers while the Conservatives nosie machine drowns out common sense and they turn their backs on working people.

Obama's victory shows that the American people are waking up.

Link

IN OUR OPINION
A dreadful outcome for Detroit
December 11, 2008

“I dread looking at Wall Street,” U.S. Sen. Harry Reid said late Thursday night as he announced that the Senate could not reach agreement on a rescue plan for the auto industry.

That may be nothing compared to the dread with which everyone in Michigan will be looking at each other today.

Do General Motors and Chrysler have a Plan B? Can Ford really hang on, particularly if one or both of the others go into bankruptcy?

Michigan knows the pain of hard times in the auto industry: the related businesses that go under, the stores and restaurants that die, the crushing load on the state budget, the families who abandon their homes and leave the state. It is incredible that anyone, even senators from Southern states that are home to the assembly lines of foreign car producers, could want to watch these hard times turn so much harder for so many people because of a domestic auto industry implosion.

The final sticking point apparently was when — not whether — UAW workers would have the same wages for as the foreign automakers pay. That will seem like an incredibly minor dispute in the face of an industry collapse, and — in many people's eyes — an anchor to hang around organized labor for the rest of recorded history.

Perhaps it won't come to that. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson could still devise a plan to extract short-term auto industry loans from the $700 billion bailout bill designed for the financial businesses. There may be other options that have not yet been proposed to tide the industry over until a new administration arrives. The Detroit companies may be able to limp along.

But none of that will temper the fear rising today in Detroit, throughout Michigan and in the many other areas where the domestic auto industry is the economic mainstay.

The Senate rejection appears rooted in the extraordinary assumptions that Congress can by legislation act as a bankruptcy judge or design the perfect car — so sexy, emission-free and cheap that every American will want one. Yet the final bill negotiated by the White House was, in fact, very much a form of bankruptcy lite. It would have caused plenty of pain here, if that was what Detroit's opponents were really seeking.

Job loss numbers have grown substantially since the automakers first went to Washington looking for help. But far worse apparently is to come.

“Don't 2.5 million people … deserve three months?” Michigan's Sen. Debbie Stabenow asked Thursday night in a last-minute plea for a vote.

Tragically, the answer was no.
teyatesteyatesOld Faithful
Here is my solution to the probelm, but I am sure Pogo won't like it.
Take the comapnies and turn them over to the Union. Let the Union, elect or naminate who they want to run it. Let the Union subsidize the factory, turn it in to the "People's Factory", and equally dispense all the profits back to the Union members. Let them work as hard as they wish, it is their company. Let them subsidize the purhcase and installation of all new equipment. Let them pay for the advertising and lobbying efforts to keep the company afloat.
I would love to see this, and experiment to see if it really works. I personally think they would not make it a year, but it would be nice to be proven wrong.
LMMLMMOld Faithful
This is what they get now.


"I was stunned that they would walk away from a deal to put these companies on an incredible footing, a healthy footing for their employees for years to come," Corker said.

The senator complained that the UAW pay scale is "far higher" than at other plants in the United States, particularly those of foreign automakers.

In terms of hourly wages, the pay scales are similar. For instance, General Motors says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in the benefits, however. GM's hourly labor costs (including pensions and health care) total $69 for active workers. Toyota's total about $48 per hour at older U.S. plants.
HIFLYERHIFLYERHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Pogo, how much should an automotive assembly line worker make an hour? Real number only, don't dodge the question.

There are just a few reasons that the automotive companies are having problems. The unions force them to overpay, they are unable to get rid of unproductive workers, poor management, and they produce crappy vehicles. Ford's transmissions are notorious for going bad after 100k miles.


OK, I'll bite

They should be paid what their contract stipulates just like executive management. If the workers give concessions then executive management should also. If the American worker should be compensated the same as a Japanese worker then so should executive management. I do not see you saying the American CEO's pay should be inline with their foreign counter parts. Any concessions given should be tied together so that before management gets any bonus, salary increase or deferred incentive the workers are made whole at the same time.

Managements decisions and mismanagement is the main reason the American car makers are in their current position.

If unions are truly the kiss of death for a company then how is UPS with almost its entire workforce union so profitable?

My last Chevys have been great cars:
1993 Truck 220k no problems running great when sold.
2002 Suburban 150k no problems still looks good and runs great.
2005 Z71 4 door truck 65k running great "love my heated seats"
R redbullPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
Here is my solution to the probelm, but I am sure Pogo won't like it.
Take the comapnies and turn them over to the Union. Let the Union, elect or naminate who they want to run it. Let the Union subsidize the factory, turn it in to the "People's Factory", and equally dispense all the profits back to the Union members. Let them work as hard as they wish, it is their company. Let them subsidize the purhcase and installation of all new equipment. Let them pay for the advertising and lobbying efforts to keep the company afloat.
I would love to see this, and experiment to see if it really works. I personally think they would not make it a year, but it would be nice to be proven wrong.


Kinda like Saturn huh? How's their stock today?
R redbullPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Their Editorial is interesting and I think people should check it out.

This is just another step in the war against workers that started under Reagan to increase Corporate Profits. Corporate Globalization ends good paying jobs in America and ships them to overseas sweatshops to increase Corporate profits.

Management made bad decsions but we need to save our industries. The workers built the cars they were expected to.

A dreadful outcome for Detroit | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

I have watched as they destroyed the Family Farms and manufacturing jobs while the Corporate Media Pundits blame workers. Corporate Profits are soaring. The liberals and progressives have stood by the workers while the Conservatives nosie machine drowns out common sense and they turn their backs on working people.

Obama's victory shows that the American people are waking up.

Link

IN OUR OPINION
A dreadful outcome for Detroit
December 11, 2008

“I dread looking at Wall Street,” U.S. Sen. Harry Reid said late Thursday night as he announced that the Senate could not reach agreement on a rescue plan for the auto industry.

That may be nothing compared to the dread with which everyone in Michigan will be looking at each other today.

Do General Motors and Chrysler have a Plan B? Can Ford really hang on, particularly if one or both of the others go into bankruptcy?

Michigan knows the pain of hard times in the auto industry: the related businesses that go under, the stores and restaurants that die, the crushing load on the state budget, the families who abandon their homes and leave the state. It is incredible that anyone, even senators from Southern states that are home to the assembly lines of foreign car producers, could want to watch these hard times turn so much harder for so many people because of a domestic auto industry implosion.

The final sticking point apparently was when — not whether — UAW workers would have the same wages for as the foreign automakers pay. That will seem like an incredibly minor dispute in the face of an industry collapse, and — in many people's eyes — an anchor to hang around organized labor for the rest of recorded history.

Perhaps it won't come to that. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson could still devise a plan to extract short-term auto industry loans from the $700 billion bailout bill designed for the financial businesses. There may be other options that have not yet been proposed to tide the industry over until a new administration arrives. The Detroit companies may be able to limp along.

But none of that will temper the fear rising today in Detroit, throughout Michigan and in the many other areas where the domestic auto industry is the economic mainstay.

The Senate rejection appears rooted in the extraordinary assumptions that Congress can by legislation act as a bankruptcy judge or design the perfect car — so sexy, emission-free and cheap that every American will want one. Yet the final bill negotiated by the White House was, in fact, very much a form of bankruptcy lite. It would have caused plenty of pain here, if that was what Detroit's opponents were really seeking.

Job loss numbers have grown substantially since the automakers first went to Washington looking for help. But far worse apparently is to come.

“Don't 2.5 million people … deserve three months?” Michigan's Sen. Debbie Stabenow asked Thursday night in a last-minute plea for a vote.


Umm let's see how many car manufactures in Alabama now- Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, BMW
Tn-Saturn, Nissan, coming soon Volkswagon
MS-Not sure but I know there's Toyota wanting to build a Prius plant.

All American workers.

Tragically, the answer was no.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
They should be paid what their contract stipulates just like executive management.


In other words, they are paid the wage they agree to work for. I agree.

The question was addressed to Pogo. Since he keeps repeating that workers deserve their fair share, I'd like to see what his idea of a fair share is.

Pogo, one more time. You own a car company. You have just hired an employee to install seats on the line. He has no experience and will be trained on the job. How much do you pay him per hour? Actual number please.
HIFLYERHIFLYERHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
They should be paid what their contract stipulates just like executive management.


In other words, they are paid the wage they agree to work for. I agree.

The question was addressed to Pogo. Since he keeps repeating that workers deserve their fair share, I'd like to see what his idea of a fair share is.

Pogo, one more time. You own a car company. You have just hired an employee to install seats on the line. He has no experience and will be trained on the job. How much do you pay him per hour? Actual number please.


I was just pointing out that you and everyone else is focused on what the UAW workers make compared to their foreign counter parts. You and everyone else leave out or discount mismanagement and executive pay compared to their foreign counter parts, which is the bigger problem in my opinion.

I also though this was a public forum, sorry for the intrusion with some facts.
AlabamaSonAlabamaSonHall of Famer
I guess I throw in my opinion again. But let me duck first. In actuality the UAW has a contract with GM (or Chrysler) to make cars. It doesn't matter what people think about who to blame. When GM goes under there will be no need for a contract. So the UAW will have no place for its members to work. So it might be in their best interest to work something out. But, nobody is sticking a gun to anybody's head.

The car companies have wasted away their money. They do not deserve a bailout. People will continue to buy cars from the healthy companies. And the companies that made bad decisions will fall to the wayside. The UAW will either have to find somebody else to contract with, or the members will have to get in line to work somewhere else. Thousands of people are already in line and I haven't seen their companies get bailed out.

In fact, I seriously doubt they will fall that far to the wayside. Did Jeep disappear when AMC went under? The bad designs from AMC went away. I suspect somebody will want the Dodge truck name and maybe the Chrysler Caravan name. Life will go on and a bunch of Wall Street people who made bad decisions may learn something.

So, blame who you wish. You will have plenty of time in the unemployment line to talk about it. I know. I've been there.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
I was just pointing out that you and everyone else is focused on what the UAW workers make compared to their foreign counter parts. You and everyone else leave out or discount mismanagement and executive pay compared to their foreign counter parts, which is the bigger problem in my opinion.

I also though this was a public forum, sorry for the intrusion with some facts.


When did I say anything about UAW workers?

Foreign workers and executive pay has absolutely nothing to do with my question. Pogo insists that workers should get a fair share, my question was for him to put that in real dollars given a situation.

Mismanagement is a major problem with the auto industry. So is poor quality product. I've had two Fords in my life, both transmissions went out right after 100k miles. My Grand Prix was the biggest piece of crap I've ever owned. I had a friend put over 200k on his Honda and it was still running when he sold it and bought another Honda.

UAW is also to blame demanding unreasonable wages, benefits, and it's impossible to get rid of an unproductive worker. Yes, giving an executive millions of dollars for wrecking a company is bad. So is giving an employee $70 an hour regardless of job performance.

Sorry for the intrusion of facts.
HIFLYERHIFLYERHall of Famer
Tell me of a example of not being able to get rid of a unproductive worker?

As I posted all my chevys have gone the distance my 93 220k when sold and still going strong.

How do you know the UAW worker gets $70 an hour? I have seen the media reporting it much less? How do you know what a reasonable wage is for a autoworker? The autoworkers deserve the wage they negotiated, do you not if you work?

Your figures do not reflect this contract from the UAW page. It seems they make far less starting a $14.20 for this particular contract. I all honestly I do not know what other plants make just pointing out the misinformation of $70. Go to the UAW site and read the contracts for yourself Link

I can see you have it in for anyone earning a union wage and you feel unions are the kiss of death for a company. How about you answering a question. How does UPS do so well with almost a total union work force? Once a month a manager rides along timing and checking up on his driver and you never see them just sitting around. If you are unproductive or a bad employee you are gone.
P Pogo142Post Master
I don't have a lot of time right now so I will make this short.

How much should a CEO make Nash?

Workers form unions to negotiate wages and benefits collectively rather then on an individual bases. People have learned through history it's more effective that way.

The problem is not the salaries of workers, we all should be making more and sharing in the wealth we help create. The Corporate Media, as usual, blames the workers. Auto makers management was greedy and short sided. They continued making SUV's, Hummers, Pick Up's because they sell. They ignored warnings by environmentalists and consumer advocates.

People fail to see the influence and manipulation of oil companies also.

In countries like Brazil and Argentina where Corporate Globalization failed workers did take over factories and business and have made them work. Chavez in Venezuela is doing the same thing.

We need International Unions to be able to compete with Corporate Globalization.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
How do you know the UAW worker gets $70 an hour? I have seen the media reporting it much less? How do you know what a reasonable wage is for a autoworker? The autoworkers deserve the wage they negotiated, do you not if you work?


Link

"UAW Workers Actually Cost the Big Three Automakers $70 an Hour"

Link

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

"Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal."

From an insulators union website, they openly admit they have unproductive workers.

Link

"The union has its share of low skilled and unproductive workers."

There are plenty more examples of such.
HIFLYERHIFLYERHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
How do you know the UAW worker gets $70 an hour? I have seen the media reporting it much less? How do you know what a reasonable wage is for a autoworker? The autoworkers deserve the wage they negotiated, do you not if you work?


Link

"UAW Workers Actually Cost the Big Three Automakers $70 an Hour"

Link

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

"Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal."

From an insulators union website, they openly admit they have unproductive workers.

Link

"The union has its share of low skilled and unproductive workers."

There are plenty more examples of such.


Do you even read you links you provide the $70 figure includes overtime and working holidays and every other shift pay differential. Who determines manning? "management" If they have to pay a lot of overtime, then manning is way off. So yes, it is close to $70 during overtime and $30 normally. Typical exaggeration of wages to inflame the public. The job bank is crazy, why management agreed to it is the real question.

For the record I am against the bailout. I just object to the workers being mostly blamed for current situation.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Do you even read you links you provide the $70 figure includes overtime and working holidays and every other shift pay differential. Who determines manning? "management" If they have to pay a lot of overtime, then manning is way off. So yes, it is close to $70 during overtime and $30 normally. Typical exaggeration of wages to inflame the public. The job bank is crazy, why management agreed to it is the real question.

For the record I am against the bailout. I just object to the workers being mostly blamed for current situation.


Yes, I did read the link. I knew that the $70 an hour included overtime and benefits. It still boils down to the company paying out on average $70 for every hour of labor per person.

I'm not blaming the workers for the failure of the car industry, it's poor management and inferior products that are mostly to blame. Corrupt unions only helped their failure by making unreasonable demands and reducing productivity.
P Pogo142Post Master
________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:

Yes, I did read the link. I knew that the $70 an hour included overtime and benefits. It still boils down to the company paying out on average $70 for every hour of labor per person.

I'm not blaming the workers for the failure of the car industry, it's poor management and inferior products that are mostly to blame. Corrupt unions only helped their failure by making unreasonable demands and reducing productivity.


__________________________________________________________________________________________


There is corruption among some unions but in general they don't make "unreasonable demands and reduce productivity." Organized crime flourish's in certain industries like transportation and cross into unions and such but the US worker is the best in the world and as of a year or so ago still led the world as the most productive.

Unions protect against sweatshops.

We need to protect our industries and workers and the government needs to bailout the auto makers but by loans and with certain conditions, like fuel efficiency and alternatives to oil.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Unions protect against sweatshops.

We need to protect our industries and workers and the government needs to bailout the auto makers but by loans and with certain conditions, like fuel efficiency and alternatives to oil.


No, federal and local labor laws protect against sweatshops.

The government has absolutely no business bailing out the auto industry. The stock market was slowly creeping it's way back up until Congress passed the bail out for the banks. The moment they did, the market took a nose dive.

If a company is poorly managed and fails, it should go out of business and allow another company to take it's place. That's the natural progression of the market. It works best when the government quits using our money and messing with the market.
Z zippadeedoodahOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
There is corruption among some unions but in general they don't make "unreasonable demands and reduce productivity."


Sorry, won't wash. I've personally been involved in too many situations where THE NET EFFECT was a significant reduction in productivity while the stated purpose was to protect seniority.

quote:
Organized crime flourish's in certain industries like transportation and cross into unions and such but the US worker is the best in the world and as of a year or so ago still led the world as the most productive.

Unions protect against sweatshops.

We need to protect our industries and workers and the government needs to bailout the auto makers but by loans and with certain conditions, like fuel efficiency and alternatives to oil.


I sort of agree that we need to protect our industries, but do it by ensuring the playing field is level. China, for example, steals technology that makes it more competitive. Simply tack a tariff onto every import to help pay for the labor dislocation this causes. Airbus is heavily subsidized by the EU. Do a quid pro quo for Boeing and Northrop.

And, sorry, the "certain conditions" (fuel efficiency and alternatives to oil) are great in theory but have to be driven by the marketplace to actually succeed. Stop with the ham-handed appeals to curtail "global warming" and encourage me by what really counts...money. If the payback period for a hybrid vehicle is ten years, then why should I buy one?

Instead of bailing out Detroit, why not invest in small, high-tech startups like Tesla? They make an electric car that people actually want. My prediction is that bailing out Detroit this time in a long series of installment payments. It's advanced life support for a dinosaur.
P Pogo142Post Master
I have worked in a union business and now work in a non union business that I started out as a worker and now am in management. I have dealt with both union and non union businesses. The American worker, under unions, has been the most productive and efficient workers for decades. US led the world until the Reagan Revolution against the unions and for the Corporations. We see the decline in our living standard as stagnating wages, failing to keep up with costs keeps the average person struggling just to keep up and falling into debt. While the gap between the average American and wealthy increases.

There is some corruption in unions but when I have a choice I chose union made over non union, for quality and safety. I work in a non union small business I have seen exploitation and inferior products from some non union businesses. Not always but sometimes.

Establishing a "level playing field" for American Businesses would be a nationalized Health Care System and International Unions that would put an end to sweatshop labor.

The public will buy environmentally safe products when business builds them. The "Green Market" is growing.

The health costs due to pollution is a tax on our society.

The Electric Car was a success but it was killed anyway. Fuel efficiency is a must and I don't know any consumer who won't buy a car because it's "Great on Gas."
Z zippadeedoodahOld Faithful
Nationalized health care? What a disaster. It's been a disaster everywhere it's been tried, and it would be the same here. If you want to see what national health care would be like, visit a VA hospital sometime. A national labor union? Just breeding ground for more corruption and inefficiency, this time covered by the mantle of a government bureaucracy. Try to find "civil service" and "efficient and productive" anywhere in a workplace lexicon. Remember, our government couldn't even make money running a brothel.

I believe your ilk won't be satisfied until the government takes care of every detail of your pathetic lives. It's so much easier to wail and cry for a basic living stipend because that takes away your responsibility to look out for yourselves. Perhaps living happy, safe, and taken care of is the libtard equivalent of nirvana, but then I've understood the concept of being responsible for my own choices for my entire life. I enjoy taking risks, and either reaping the benefits of them or living with the consequences.

In a sense, I somewhat agree with you about unions on a limited scale. I'll hire union plumbers or electricians to work on my house since they likely have demonstrated some level of skill. However, if my workforce decided to unionize I'd close my facility and move someplace else.

You're like every other libtard who will buy into the whole "green business" drivel. The public will buy environmentally conscious products when some idiot like Al Gore tells them they need to. How about CFLs? Some of the most dangerous chemicals on the planet, with disposal instructions that are a page and a half long. Not a single CFL is made in the US. Why? They're too dangerous to manufacture, and the EPA regulations too strict. And now they're being touted as a way to reduce energy. Apparently no one ever learned about "life cycle costing" when they were studying these things. And the early electric car? It was butt ugly. The Tesla is a smoking sports car with a year-long waiting list to buy one. You're wasting your time when you try to appeal to "a higher moral sense" of people you consider to be greedy...you know, neocons like myself. If you want to sell greener products, make it cool, make it cheaper, and by all means make it make sense. "But it's for our children and our children's children" is wasted on me.
P Pogo142Post Master
National Health Care systems work fine in Europe and other leading Industrialized Countries. US ranks 37th in health care, well behind all of them. Health Care costs are one of the main handicaps for both the American Business and Worker.

International Unions will end sweatshop exploitation and reduce Companies relocating for cheaper wages and higher profits.

The US Government functions very well and you are just mimicking what you are taught by the Corporate Media and Hate "Shock Jocks." It is the Mantra of the Reagan Revolution.

The government is the only tway the American people can protect themselves from the power and greed of Corporate Capitalism, which has bankrupted the American people and left us deep in debt. With worker protection from unions and government programs the US led the world and the American people enjoyed the highest standard of living in American History, and the world. Under Corporate Globalization we are descending towards 3rd world status.

The Electric Car was a success and that was the reason the oil industry put pressure on the car manufacture to kill it, which they did. Good documentary I have posted a few times you should check out called "Who killed the electric car?

You should expand your sources, it will help you see outside the lies of the Corporate Media and hate radio.
HIFLYERHIFLYERHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
National Health Care systems work fine in Europe and other leading Industrialized Countries. US ranks 37th in health care, well behind all of them. Health Care costs are one of the main handicaps for both the American Business and Worker.

International Unions will end sweatshop exploitation and reduce Companies relocating for cheaper wages and higher profits.

The US Government functions very well and you are just mimicking what you are taught by the Corporate Media and Hate "Shock Jocks." It is the Mantra of the Reagan Revolution.

The government is the only tway the American people can protect themselves from the power and greed of Corporate Capitalism, which has bankrupted the American people and left us deep in debt. With worker protection from unions and government programs the US led the world and the American people enjoyed the highest standard of living in American History, and the world. Under Corporate Globalization we are descending towards 3rd world status.

The Electric Car was a success and that was the reason the oil industry put pressure on the car manufacture to kill it, which they did. Good documentary I have posted a few times you should check out called "Who killed the electric car?

You should expand your sources, it will help you see outside the lies of the Corporate Media and hate radio.


Pogo,
Hard to believe you are I are close to on the same side on the UAW situation. But, your statement here is wrong "works fine". I travel to Europe and Canada a lot and their National Heath Care System is far from what you claim. Need surgery or treatment for a illness get in line and wait. The system is much like the organ donor list. People who can, come to America for treatment.

It is true that companies do not have to provide health care, since it is theatrically provided by the state.
P Pogo142Post Master
They have the American people divided into Red and Blue on hot button issues but we are all workers and we are the country. It's not between Liberal and Conservative but workers and the Corporate Class, or as FDR called them "Economic Royalists.

My business now deals a lot with European Companies and they come here and some of our people travel there and they tell me the opposite. They laugh when they see their Health Care described here in our Media.

The US ranks behind them.
E Extra260Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
They have the American people divided into Red and Blue on hot button issues but we are all workers and we are the country. It's not between Liberal and Conservative but workers and the Corporate Class, or as FDR called them "Economic Royalists.

My business now deals a lot with European Companies and they come here and some of our people travel there and they tell me the opposite. They laugh when they see their Health Care described here in our Media.

The US ranks behind them.



More tax cuts for the rich, less restriction of speculation in the market, more money in the hands of the super wealthy.

Everything that has been done in the last 8 years has been to increase the wealth of the rich while eliminating the middle class.


But you know Bush is very sorry. That helps.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
My business now deals a lot with European Companies and they come here and some of our people travel there and they tell me the opposite. They laugh when they see their Health Care described here in our Media.


I'm sure they do. Our media makes it seem like our health care system is in shambles and it would be better off if the government took over. Press in European countries who actually have to live with that type of health care are much more honest. I'm sure they are laughing their butt off at claims that their health care system is so much better than ours.

See for yourself, if you have 20 seconds to spare.

Link

"Behind the bald statistics that reveal the scale of ambulance 'stacking', there are tragic human stories.

Patrick Wilkins had collapsed with a stroke. All advice is that, if a stroke victim is to receive the best possible chance of survival, he must be transported to hospital as quickly as possible. But it was 55 minutes before an ambulance even arrived at his door.

The reason, his MP, Norman Lamb, was to discover, was that the vehicle the emergency control room had assigned to assist him was still at the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital, where it was being held because of severe bed problems in the A&E department, a fact the East of England Ambulance Service would later admit to the MP."

That's the true cost of socialized health care.
Z zippadeedoodahOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
International Unions will end sweatshop exploitation and reduce Companies relocating for cheaper wages and higher profits.

The government is the only tway the American people can protect themselves from the power and greed of Corporate Capitalism, which has bankrupted the American people and left us deep in debt.


Spoken like a true Marxist. Who's going to protect us from the power and greed of Government?
P Pogo142Post Master
You can make all the fun and twist things you want but the sad truth is the US Health System rates 37th, behind all other industrialized western nations.

We have Patient Dumping as well as people being denied care by Insurance Companies. Millions cannot afford basic care and last statistics showed that half the people who went bankrupt did so because of Medical Costs. Millions struggle to pay rising rates and deductibles. Our system is a horror, Europe's works fine.

We see the result of unregulated Capitalism in their latest theft by Wall Street as well as devastated communties, workers and cites that have felt the results Corporate Globalization.

We use to have Robber Barons and Economic Royalists. Today they are Corporate Raiders that ravage countries.
LMMLMMOld Faithful
Yes, that 47 million without health care that go to the ER for a sore throat, walk out with a prescription, pay nothing and all covered by Medicaid.
While, I cannot afford my meds because my new insurance program charges me triple if I don't use generics, in addition to my insurance premium, which goes up every time some one on Medicaid goes to the hospital. If I am two weeks late on a payment, off to the collection agency without warning while the Medicaid people PAY NOTHING>>>>>>>>>

I think I shall go on Medicaid and get all my stuff free too.
Universal Health Care is Medicaid.
OK, rant over.
A AreyouceriousSmall Talker
Just got through watching Bill Ford Chairman for Ford try and justify the bailout on Larry King Live. First he tries to scare the public into being for the bailout by saying that every country let has let their industry go has lost their status as world power. Then he puts his foot in his mouth as one caller asks him what car he drives. He stated the good thing about his job was that he got to drive the latest and newest Ford but that frankly the drove a lot of the competitors cars. Seriously he said that. That just shows the we should let the companies fail. It may hurt some people and their jobs initially but this is a free market and the capital and jobs will be shifted to an entity that can more efficiently use those resources. Don't be fooled this car companies will get this money and the gov will never get their return back because of the inept management at the little three.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
We have Patient Dumping as well as people being denied care by Insurance Companies. Millions cannot afford basic care and last statistics showed that half the people who went bankrupt did so because of Medical Costs. Millions struggle to pay rising rates and deductibles. Our system is a horror, Europe's works fine.


Yes, our health care system has problems and isn't perfect. Those problems will work themselves out in the free market as long as the government doesn't tamper with it.

Besides, you've been given plenty of examples of Europeans dying due to long waits, poor quality care, paying for care out of their own pocket rather than use state health care, doing their own dentistry, government waste and corruption, and so on.

With all the articles and examples I've posted, how can you honestly say Europe's health care system is fine when they have problems far worse than ours?
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