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From spiritdaily 10/11/10

In Chile, 33 miners are still trapped underground. Their families are still waiting patiently. Huddled around a fire on a chilly night, they are now telling the incredible story of how a butterfly was their tiny guardian angel.

In a letter to his brother, miner Jorge Galeguillos says he believes a white butterfly saved his life the day the mine caved.

Mining consultant Miguel Fortt is not given to flights of fancy. He says white butterflies flutter around purple flowers that blossom in the desert early in the morning, but they rarely fly deep into a mineshaft. He says the two miners slowed down to observe the butterfly and that saved them from driving into rockfalls triggered by the first cave-in.

"People who are religious would call this a miracle. From a scientific perspective the butterfly may have flown into the mine on air currents. You can draw your own conclusions but that butterfly saved lives," Fortt says.

Galeguillos' brother, who is also a miner, can't explain how a butterfly flew more than 500 meters deep into the mine. But like most of the miners there, he believes the butterfly was protecting his older brother's life.

consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)

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quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Loki, science is the WAY God does things.

Why is THAT so hard?


because god is the one who caused the stupid thing to begin with?

really, think about it: if god were omnipotent enough to force a butterfly into a 500 foot tunnel, why would he not simply cause the rocks to solidify and not cave in? is this some sort of weird test to bestow faith unto unbelievers?

really people. think about it. in the rational world, crap simply happens. one in a million chances happen to one out of every million people every single day.
it is my believe that through an unfortunate set of circumstances, that we will possibly never know the extent of, there was a collapse and the miners were trapped.

this is called ' bad luck.'
i think god had little to do with it, other than having caused the creation of all of it to begin with.

i believe that through hard work and diligence and perserverance and determination, a collection of circumstances brought about the rescue of these miners.
it's possible that 99.99% of the planet will never know the full extent of the heroic efforts performed by a few people to get these men out alive.

this is called good luck. (and hard work)
i think god had no more to do with the direct rescue of these people than he had to do with the acctual collapse to begin with.

i find it very hard to believe that He is watching over us every single second... micromanaging our lives...

because if that were true... how could bad things ever happen to good people?

how could good things happen to bad people?

if He were over seeing our lives in every little detail...what was the point in giving us free will? he's just gonna arrainge crap the way he wants it anyway...

i don't buy that. He created it all... He set up the circumstances that would eventually evolve to us... and eventually we are going to evolve into something else.
i dunno what. i don't know what his purpose and his goals are. i do feel sure that it wasn't to crawl around on bended knee, worshiping him, and ignoring this fantastic life he's given us. i think bill gray's greatest sin is squandering the wonderful gift that God has given to each of us... by hiding in his tiny little box of man made rules, afraid to put a foot wrong... or hoping to make up for all the wrongly placed feet earlier in his life...to afraid to live and relish the life we were given.

we look at an odd situation, where unusual things happen to the benefit of a person or people and we say ' oh.. look at the grace of god... what a miracle..."

yet, when something just as unexpected and unusual and odd happens with a detrimental effect, no one talks about miracles - even tho the odds of each event taking place are the same.

when a 3 year old slips off a 5th story balcony, catches an updraft, plops onto an awning and slides into the open arms of a doorman who was a star reciever in collage.... that's a miricle.

when a micrometorite makes a mico hole in an aircraft at 15k feet, where it punctures the holding tank for the potable water supply, where the pressure allows a tiny squirt escape before sealing. the squirt falls, freezeing from the cold as it falls, shaping itselt into roughly the size and shape of a 16 penny nail. the nail falls through the winter sky and promptly sinks itself into the head of a 7 year old autistic child who just this second learned to associated the picture on the wall with his favorite food, and is be rewarded by being allowed to take the new puppy for a walk.

just because it sucks doesn't make it any less of a miracle.


Or... in far more common phrasing..

"$h t happens."
sometimes it's good $h t sometimes it's bad $h t, but regardless whether you stepped into it or not, it just keeps on happening.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I don't believe God caused the cave in. I believe that it happened, just like stuff happens every day. The miners were in the wrong place at the wrong time. What I DO believe is that it is through the grace of God that some intelligent and educated people figured out a way to get them out safely.


Of course it had nothing to do with the fact that they were digging a whole in the ground. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
One of the miners said '"I was with God, and I was with the devil. They fought, and God won ."

Beautiful.


why would they even "fight"? god is omnipotent/nicient/present. why not simply kick the devil's asss once and for all and be done with it?

face it people. the universe "happens" exactly as if everything were up to pure chance and crap luck. the reason bad thing happen is due to entropy, not some invisible puppet master.
quote:
You must give god equal credit for creating the situation and ending it. Net result- Zero.



In YOUR mind maybe, but that isn't the way it works. God created the universe, and science is they way He did it. Since Christ came and told us all we need to know, we have been allowed to use our free will to mess up, save ourselves from situations like this, to rant and rave like Bill Gray, or to use our common sense the way so many others of us do. Free will. Get it? God doesn't micromanage the world. Stuff happens. If we want His intervention, we can pray for it, and sometimes for His own reasons, the answer will be yes, and sometimes it will be no.

Why not kick Satans butt once and for all? Because that would invalidate the free will He gave us. WE choose our destiny, because that is the way God wants it.
quote:
Why not kick Satans butt once and for all? Because that would invalidate the free will He gave us. WE choose our destiny, because that is the way God wants it.


the question of why evil exists if there is a god is not a new one.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus, ~340 bce
Unob, maybe everyone has a different definition of evil. For example, to some, abortion is evil. To others, forcing a woman to have a child she can't afford to raise is evil. To some people, beating up homosexuals is all in good fun. But there are others of us who consider THAT evil. So whose definition is God supposed to adhere to?

I still submit that we are here with free will, and able to do anything we want to. The punishment for doing what GOD considers evil will come after we die. But in the meantime, we are all free to do good or evil. I'd like to think most of us will choose to do what we see as good. But SOMEONE will always take exception to the best of our intentions.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Unob, maybe everyone has a different definition of evil. For example, to some, abortion is evil. To others, forcing a woman to have a child she can't afford to raise is evil. To some people, beating up homosexuals is all in good fun. But there are others of us who consider THAT evil. So whose definition is God supposed to adhere to?

I still submit that we are here with free will, and able to do anything we want to. The punishment for doing what GOD considers evil will come after we die. But in the meantime, we are all free to do good or evil. I'd like to think most of us will choose to do what we see as good. But SOMEONE will always take exception to the best of our intentions.


ono,

I'm a christian and I can clearly see a difference between you,a christian,and non believers.
It will take more than any of us to change their minds. Something will have to happen to them.

Something to see, smell or touch, but it's got to be something that hit's right between the eyes.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Unob, maybe everyone has a different definition of evil. For example, to some, abortion is evil. To others, forcing a woman to have a child she can't afford to raise is evil. To some people, beating up homosexuals is all in good fun. But there are others of us who consider THAT evil. So whose definition is God supposed to adhere to?

I still submit that we are here with free will, and able to do anything we want to. The punishment for doing what GOD considers evil will come after we die. But in the meantime, we are all free to do good or evil. I'd like to think most of us will choose to do what we see as good. But SOMEONE will always take exception to the best of our intentions.


At least you don't believe in objective morality. Good on ya.

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