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Long read but very interesting.

 

 =======================

 

Scientific inquiry into the origins of Christianity begins today with the question: "Did Jesus Christ really live?" Was there a man named Jesus, who was called the Christ, living in Palestine nineteen centuries ago, of whose life and teachings we have a correct account in the New Testament? The orthodox idea that Christ was the son of God—God himself in human form—that he was the creator of the countless millions of glowing suns and wheeling worlds that strew the infinite expanse of the universe; that the forces of nature were the servants of his will and changed their courses at his command—such an idea has been abandoned by every independent thinker in the world—by every thinker who relies on reason and experience rather than mere faith—by every man of science who places the integrity of nature above the challenge of ancient religious tales.

Not only has the divinity of Christ been given up, but his existence as a man is being more and more seriously questioned. Some of the ablest scholars of the world deny that he ever lived at all. A commanding literature dealing with the inquiry, intense in its seriousness and profound and thorough in its research, is growing up in all countries, and spreading the conviction that Christ is a myth. The question is one of tremendous importance. For the Freethinker, as well as for the Christian, it is of the weightiest significance. The Christian religion has been and is a mighty fact in the world. For good or for ill, it has absorbed for many centuries the best energies of mankind. It has stayed the march of civilization, and made martyrs of some of the noblest men and women of the race: and it is today the greatest enemy of knowledge, of freedom, of social and industrial improvement, and of the genuine brotherhood of mankind. The progressive forces of the world are at war with this Asiatic superstition, and this war will continue until the triumph of truth and freedom is complete. The question, "Did Jesus Christ Really Live?" goes to the very root of the conflict between reason and faith; and upon its determination depends, to some degree, the decision as to whether religion or humanity shall rule the world.

Whether Christ did, or did not live, has nothing at all to do with what the churches teach, or with what we believe, It is wholly a matter of evidence. It is a question of science. The question is—what does history say? And that question must be settled in the court of historical criticism. If the thinking world is to hold to the position that Christ was a real character, there must be sufficient evidence to warrant that belief. If no evidence for his existence can be found; if history returns the verdict that his name is not inscribed upon her scroll, if it be found that his story was created by art and ingenuity, like the stories of fictitious heroes, he will have to take his place with the host of other demigods whose fancied lives and deeds make up the mythology of the world.

 

More:

http://www.infidels.org/librar...sus_really_live.html

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From Bart Ehrman 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.htm

 

With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) -- sources that originated in Jesus' native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are is pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind. Moreover, we have relatively extensive writings from one first-century author, Paul, who acquired his information within a couple of years of Jesus' life and who actually knew, first hand, Jesus' closest disciple Peter and his own brother James. If Jesus did not exist, you would think his brother would know it.

Moreover, the claim that Jesus was simply made up falters on every ground. The alleged parallels between Jesus and the "pagan" savior-gods in most instances reside in the modern imagination: We do not have accounts of others who were born to virgin mothers and who died as an atonement for sin and then were raised from the dead (despite what the sensationalists claim ad nauseum in their propagandized versions)

 

 

Yes, there are accounts of virgin births in pagan history. How about the dying for our sins and the resurrection? Any you can think of there?

 

No matter the actual number of writers of the Bible (it is disputed), there don't seem to be any records of those writers ever recanting their works as fiction or drug induced. Mass hysteria over hundreds of years? Don't think that would play either.

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

 This is the reason Jesus stressed the importance of Tradition.  How many people can guarantee the existence of Jesus never having heard a word from him in 2000 years? Nobody.......

Hi Vic,

 

Possibly in the Roman Catholic church no one has had a word from Jesus Christ for 2000 years.  That I could believe.

 

However, in the Christian church we have the full revelation of Him -- in the Big 66, the Written Word of God, the Bible.  It is His full revelation to mankind and fully sufficient for bringing people to salvation and for guiding us in our Christian walk in life.

 

Traditions?  Who needs oral traditions, which is what Jesus spoke of, or any other traditions -- since we now have His Holy Spirit inspired, Holy Spirit inerrant, literal Written Word of God.  We have His Bible and it is the sole authority for salvation and Christian living.  What more do we need?

 

My Friend, you keep your traditions, your rituals, your fancy robes and hats, your erroneous doctrines -- I will stay with God and His Word, the Bible.

 

Okay, now that I have spoken from and about God's Word -- it is time for you to start calling me all sorts of names and telling me how stupid I am; which seems to be the ONLY defense you have for your Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - Protection-Correction-Direction

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What I have in Traditions amounts to more than a hundredfold over your

pitiful abbreviated 66 which hasn't spoken a word to you in 2000 years.

The Holy Spirit nor the Father hasn't spoken a word to for that time period

either. There's nothing more coming from your partial ba star dizer book.

 

All you hate about the Church Jesus Christ created is now and always

has been the desire of the Father, sanctioned by Jesus and moved on by

the Holy Spirit. You can't say that about your martin Luther 1500 year

removed spinoff. But hey, you're not alone, there's many thousands of

them around. And not a one of them came to you from the only one true

Christian Trinity created Holy Family and Religion.

 

And that includes a God given plan that will Not end until the end of time.

 

Now it's time you should know how Stupid you are and time for you to start

posting your twisted history and lying bible verses.

 

Hi Vic,

 

You tell me, "What I have in Traditions amounts to more than a hundredfold over your pitiful abbreviated 66 which hasn't spoken a word to you in 2000 years. 

 

So, that's your opinion of God and His Bible -- it abbreviated, it has been silent for 2000 years, and God does not speak to His people?   Wow, you really don't believe God, do you?   You can believe man-generated traditions and rituals that come out of the Vatican; but, you cannot believe God when He tells us of His Bible, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"  (2 Timothy 3:16).  By the way, when He says "All Scripture" He means all 66 books of the Bible -- NOT man-written ideas and traditions.

 

Then, you add, "Now it's time you should know how Stupid you are and time for you to start posting your twisted history and lying bible verses."

 

Vic, my Friend,  are you sure you are not Contendah in disguise?  Like him, you cannot even say "Good day" to anyone without adding some derogatory comment, name, or remark.

 

I have often heard that folks with low intelligence attempt to make up for that deficit in their speech -- by cursing.  I suppose derogatory comments, names, or remarks can be used in the same manner.

 

Bless your simple little old heart!

 

Bill

Mad-Mule

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

What I have in Traditions amounts to more than a hundredfold over your

pitiful abbreviated 66 which hasn't spoken a word to you in 2000 years.

The Holy Spirit nor the Father hasn't spoken a word to for that time period

either. There's nothing more coming from your partial ba star dizer book.

 

All you hate about the Church Jesus Christ created is now and always

has been the desire of the Father, sanctioned by Jesus and moved on by

the Holy Spirit. You can't say that about your martin Luther 1500 year

removed spinoff. But hey, you're not alone, there's many thousands of

them around. And not a one of them came to you from the only one true

Christian Trinity created Holy Family and Religion.

 

And that includes a God given plan that will Not end until the end of time.

 

Now it's time you should know how Stupid you are and time for you to start

posting your twisted history and lying bible verses.

 

billie, actually read the above this time and try to calm down. idiot

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

What I have in Traditions amounts to more than a hundredfold over your pitiful abbreviated 66 which hasn't spoken a word to you in 2000 years.  The Holy Spirit nor the Father hasn't spoken a word to for that time period either. There's nothing more coming from your partial ba star dizer book.

 

All you hate about the Church Jesus Christ created is now and always has been the desire of the Father, sanctioned by Jesus and moved on by the Holy Spirit. You can't say that about your martin Luther 1500 year removed spinoff. But hey, you're not alone, there's many thousands of them around. And not a one of them came to you from the only one true Christian Trinity created Holy Family and Religion.

 

And that includes a God given plan that will Not end until the end of time.

 

Now it's time you should know how Stupid you are and time for you to start posting your twisted history and lying bible verses.

 

billie, actually read the above this time and try to calm down. idiot 

 Hi Vic,

 

You tell me, "What I have in Traditions amounts to more than a hundredfold over your pitiful abbreviated 66 which hasn't spoken a word to you in 2000 years. 

 

So, that's your opinion of God and His Bible -- it abbreviated, it has been silent for 2000 years, and God does not speak to His people?   Wow, you really don't believe God, do you?   You can believe man-generated traditions and rituals that come out of the Vatican; but, you cannot believe God when He tells us of His Bible, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"  (2 Timothy 3:16).  By the way, when He says "All Scripture" He means all 66 books of the Bible -- NOT man-written ideas and traditions.

 

Then, you add, "Now it's time you should know how Stupid you are and time for you to start posting your twisted history and lying bible versesidiot"

Vic, my Friend,  are you sure you are not Contendah in disguise?  Like him, you cannot even say "Good day" to anyone without adding some derogatory comment, name, or remark.

 

I have often heard that folks with low intelligence attempt to make up for that deficit in their speech -- by cursing.  I suppose derogatory comments, names, or remarks can be used in the same manner.

 

Bless your simple little old heart!

 

Bill

Mad-Mule

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Hi Ms. Wonka,

 

You are so right, the Holy Spirit sent by God the Father and Jesus Christ, God the Son -- does indeed speak to us.   Very few have actually heard an audible voice as did many of the prophets in the Old Testament dispensation of Law.   Most often, in the church era, the New Testament dispensation of Grace, through our spirit we hear the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer.

 

Jesus Christ tells us of the Holy Spirit's ministry:

 

John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

John 16:7-14, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (Holy Spirit)will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  (8) And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; (9) concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (10) and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; (11) and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.  (12) I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.  (13) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  (14) He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you."

 

So, Jennifer, if a person does not hear, in their spirit, the Holy Spirit speaking to him/her -- especially when reading the Bible -- some personal spiritual reevaluation might be in order.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

TRINITY_1b_Outline

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Originally Posted by ms. wonka:

If Jesus never existed then I am totally crazy because I've been listening to this 'voice' that guides me most of my life, and I thought it was the Holy Spirit but, if Jesus never existed then we don't have the gift of the spirit.

__________

Bible says there will be more people going to Hell than to Heaven. That means there's going to be a bunch of "Christians" that claims they have the "gift of the spirit" that will be going to Hell. I bet that "voice" tells you that you ain't one of 'em.

Originally Posted by ms. wonka:

Ok, so how long till I start getting my disability checks and how much will I get? If Jesus never existed then I am totally crazy because I've been listening to this 'voice' that guides me most of my life, and I thought it was the Holy Spirit but, if Jesus never existed then we don't have the gift of the spirit.

-----------------------------------

There's meds for that nowadays!

Hi Puppy,

 

That is true!  And, the best medicine for unbelief is a strong dose of God's Word, applied daily until the atheist infection begins to subside.  Add a good dose of prayer, personal and from believing friends -- and the healing actually occurs much faster.  Try it!  You may find that you like it!

 

The infection can become contagious -- spreading to our children and grandchildren.  So, one needs to apply the medication as soon as possible, for their sakes.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Father and Son Example

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Puppy,

 

That is true!  And, the best medicine for unbelief is a strong dose of God's Word, applied daily until the atheist infection begins to subside.  Add a good dose of prayer, personal and from believing friends -- and the healing actually occurs much faster.  Try it!  You may find that you like it!

 

The infection can become contagious -- spreading to our children and grandchildren.  So, one needs to apply the medication as soon as possible, for their sakes.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Father and Son Example

-------------

Well, that may hold true for people who are predisposed to believe in the supernatural, but I'm not one of those people.

I have led by example-by exposing my child to different ideas and letting her make up her own mind what she chooses to believe (or not.). At this time she professes to be an agnostic.

 

The example I've set for her is as good if not better than any christian's. Just without all the unnecessary magical 'Great Pumpkin' stuff.

 

Hi Puppy,

 

You say the example you have set is as good as any Christian.  Well, I suppose that all depends upon what we want for our children and grandchildren.

 

I KNOW God is real and that He has offered eternal life to all who will, by grace, through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ -- believe and receive His free gift of life.

 

As we all prepare to leave this mortal life -- there are only two doors.  One is marked Eternal Life.  The other is marked Eternal Destruction.  Those are the ONLY two doors -- and a person MUST walk through one or the other.  That decision is made in this mortal life -- so that when we breathe our last breath in this mortal body -- our next breath will be in eternity:  LIFE or DESTRUCTION.

 

And, not making a choice IS making a choice; but, the default choice is not good.

 

So, in this mortal life I have three goals: 

 

1.  To assure that I have made the right choice and have Eternal Life.  That I have done.

 

2.  To makes sure that all my family, including my children and grandchildren, either have, or are prepared to make that eternal choice and choose Life.  Praise God, I can say that all my immediate family has chosen God and eternal life.

 

3.  And, finally, my last goal is to make sure that all of my FRANs (Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors) know about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word of God -- and, if they have not already chosen life in the presence of God, they are at least prepared to make that eternal choice.

 

So far, I believe I have been faithful in meeting these goals.  And, I look forward to one day standing face-to-face with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and hearing Him say, "Well done, good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:23). 

 

But, just as sweet as that -- will be the joy of seeing so many of my FRANs (Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors) in heaven with us -- and knowing that, just maybe, I may have had a wee bit to do with them being there.

 

One of the greatest of joys would be to be walking in heaven and have someone I don't know come up to me and say, "Thank you!  Because of you I chose to follow Christ."

 

And, I will say, "But, I don't know you."  And, he/she will say, "But, I heard you speak, I read one of your writings -- and that helped me to believe."

 

There is a true story of a pastor who was sitting with his mother in the hospital.  Several years later, a woman walked up to him and told him, "Thank you for leading me to the Lord."

 

The pastor was embarrassed and told the lady, "I'm sorry, but, I don't know you."

 

She smiled and told him, "A few years ago, you were sitting with your mother in the hospital.   I was in the other bed.  The privacy curtain was drawn, but I could hear you reading the Bible to her and praying with her.  That day, behind that privacy curtain -- I prayed to receive Jesus into my heart.  So, thank you."

 

Puppy, and all my Forum Friends, this is why I have continued for over seven years to share, write, question, even refute on the TimesDaily Religion Forum.  This is why I have been doing Christian writing for over twenty years, sending out my Friends Ministry e-Newsetters for the past twelve years, and posting articles on every venue I can find.  I want to know that everyone who wants to hear about my Lord Jesus Christ -- has that opportunity.

 

And, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ should start in our own homes, with our own families.  I pray that all my Forum Friends are working hard to be that role model for their families.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 - Bible_Open-FAMILY-GROW

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Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
I have led by example-by exposing my child to different ideas and letting her make up her own mind what she chooses to believe (or not.). At this time she professes to be an agnostic.

_______

If God exist, he sure knew what He was doing when He made sure ole Billy Bob didn't reproduce. Can you imagine the state of mind the kid would have had? If male, he would probably have liked to experiment with the men in the park too.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Puppy,

 

You say the example you have set is as good as any Christian.  Well, I suppose that all depends upon what we want for our children and grandchildren.

 

I KNOW God is real and that He has offered eternal life to all who will, by grace, through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ -- believe and receive His free gift of life.

 

As we all prepare to leave this mortal life -- there are only two doors.  One is marked Eternal Life.  The other is marked Eternal Destruction.  Those are the ONLY two doors -- and a person MUST walk through one or the other.  That decision is made in this mortal life -- so that when we breathe our last breath in this mortal body -- our next breath will be in eternity:  LIFE or DESTRUCTION.

 

And, not making a choice IS making a choice; but, the default choice is not good.

 

So, in this mortal life I have three goals: 

 

1.  To assure that I have made the right choice and have Eternal Life.  That I have done.

 

2.  To makes sure that all my family, including my children and grandchildren, either have, or are prepared to make that eternal choice and choose Life.  Praise God, I can say that all my immediate family has chosen God and eternal life.

 

3.  And, finally, my last goal is to make sure that all of my FRANs (Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors) know about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word of God -- and, if they have not already chosen life in the presence of God, they are at least prepared to make that eternal choice.

 

So far, I believe I have been faithful in meeting these goals.  And, I look forward to one day standing face-to-face with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and hearing Him say, "Well done, good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:23). 

 

But, just as sweet as that -- will be the joy of seeing so many of my FRANs (Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors) in heaven with us -- and knowing that, just maybe, I may have had a wee bit to do with them being there.

 

One of the greatest of joys would be to be walking in heaven and have someone I don't know come up to me and say, "Thank you!  Because of you I chose to follow Christ."

 

And, I will say, "But, I don't know you."  And, he/she will say, "But, I heard you speak, I read one of your writings -- and that helped me to believe."

 

There is a true story of a pastor who was sitting with his mother in the hospital.  Several years later, a woman walked up to him and told him, "Thank you for leading me to the Lord."

 

The pastor was embarrassed and told the lady, "I'm sorry, but, I don't know you."

 

She smiled and told him, "A few years ago, you were sitting with your mother in the hospital.   I was in the other bed.  The privacy curtain was drawn, but I could hear you reading the Bible to her and praying with her.  That day, behind that privacy curtain -- I prayed to receive Jesus into my heart.  So, thank you."

 

Puppy, and all my Forum Friends, this is why I have continued for over seven years to share, write, question, even refute on the TimesDaily Religion Forum.  This is why I have been doing Christian writing for over twenty years, sending out my Friends Ministry e-Newsetters for the past twelve years, and posting articles on every venue I can find.  I want to know that everyone who wants to hear about my Lord Jesus Christ -- has that opportunity.

 

And, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ should start in our own homes, with our own families.  I pray that all my Forum Friends are working hard to be that role model for their families.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

________________________

#6

Interesting question, thanks.

 

Please refer to Lord Raglan's mythological hero comparison here:  http://department.monm.edu/cla...cuments/heropattern/

 

Some of the myths are of entirely fictional people, some are of real people.  We see this today with Mormonism and Scientology, two religions founded by transparent frauds who have become deified and mythologized by their respective followers.

 

Otto Rank contributes to this discussion with his book "The Myth of the Birth of the Hero".  You'll enjoy this:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mbh/

 

Was there a flesh and blood Jesus?  Perhaps.  It matters little.  The myth that has grown around him is independent of his literal existence.

 

You realize that the Gospels were written after Paul wrote his letters.  Paul knew nothing of the mundane life of Jesus, or at least he does not discuss it.  If one takes Paul's Jesus as merely a spiritual being, the letters change little.  There is a fine reason to believe that the Gospels were written, in Hero-Myth fashion, to flesh out the life of Jesus who was become well-known for his alleged spiritual values.  Rather like Whitney Streiber writing books about UFO abductions to satisfy a demand.

 

Now, for Uncle DF's Video Club members, tune your secret decoder rings to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILldt2XHZw0 for more discussion.  Carrier's lecture begins in the 27th minute.

 

DF

Hi Deep,

 

You keep pushing your Richard Dawkins videos and you deny that Jesus Christ really was born, died on the cross to offer salvation to all people, resurrected from the grave, and ascended into heaven -- where He is continually mediating for all believers before God the Father.

 

Yet, over 2000 years ago -- that small group of 120 believers who waited in the Upper Room, then grew to over 5000 within a few days --  has now grown to billions worldwide.  These are folks who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- and who KNOW that He will come again to gather His own.

 

In 2000 years, assuming Christ has not yet returned -- will ANYONE remember the name of Richard Dawkins -- or the false religion he preached?   No need to answer.  We all know the truth.  "Richard Duckins? -- Rickard Gawkins" -- who or what is that?"

 

But, "Jesus Christ" -- Amen, He is coming again, IN HIS TIME, to gather all His people.

 

So, my Friend, your problem is -- when will you become one of "His people" and save yourself from eternal hell?  Works for me.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Atheist Friends - Good Luck

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