Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another Religion Forum discussion titled "Luke 1 (41-43)" a Roman Catholic Friend offers this comment, "To those who deny Mary as the Mother of God, and claim it is 'unBiblical,' I offer this passage (Luke 1:41-43).  Bill Gray, it IS part of your "BIG 66."  Was Elizabeth confused?  Was St. Luke confused?  How do you read this and still deny Mary as the mother of our Lord?"

As we see in this comment from my Roman Catholic Friend, very often when discussing this issue of Mary, the two descriptions of her become confused.  As a matter of fact, I believe that many of my Roman Catholic Friends become confused between the title "mother of our Lord" and the title "Mother of God."

So, as we begin, let's clarify this very important terminology.   This Scripture passage In Luke 1 calls Mary the "mother of our Lord."   Yet, the Roman Catholic church calls her the "Mother of God."   Is there a discrepancy there?


Question:  "Is Mary the mother of God?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Ma...r-God-theotokos.html

Answer:  The phrase “Mother of God” originated with, and continues to be used, in the Roman Catholic Church.  One of the topics at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431 was the use of the Greek term TheotÓkos, or “God-bearer,” in reference to Mary.  That council officially proclaimed Mary as the “Mother of God,” and the doctrine was later included in the Catholic catechism.  The idea behind calling Mary the “Mother of God” is that, since Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of God.

 

Let's explore this thought a bit further.  God is a Triune God, a Trinity.  He is one God, manifested in three distinct Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is God the Son.  He is fully God.  Yet, for the sake of all who will believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior; He took on a second nature -- He also became fully man.   So, while we have one God manifested in three Persons; Jesus Christ is also God the Son, manifested in two distinct natures.  He is fully God, yet He is fully Man.

Being fully God, He is preexisting, never a created being, always God the Son.  As the preexisting God, He was never born -- so, therefore, He could NOT have a mother.   Only those who are born can have a mother.

Just as we have to distinguish between the three distinct Persons in the Godhead; we must also distinguish between the two distinct natures of the Son of God.   This is expressed well in His name. Jesus is His given name, and was a common name in Biblical times.

In the Old Testament we have the name Joshua, which in Hebrew is "Yehowshuwa`"  -- and in the New Testament we have the name Jesus, which in Greek is "Iesous."  Both mean "Jehovah is salvation."   So, He has the given name Jesus/Joshua.

In the Old Testament we find the title Messiah, which in Hebrew is "mashiyach" -- and in the New Testament we find the title Christ, which in Greek is "Christos."    Both mean "anointed one."  Christ is His title.

So, we read in Matthew 1:18, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ (lesous Christos) was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit."

He was always from eternity past, the preexisting Christ, fully God the Anointed One.  He became at birth Jesus, declaring "Jehovah is salvation" -- or that God, Jehovah, had come into our midst in human form to bring salvation to all who will receive Him.

Being fully Man, in His second nature -- He was born into a human body.  That body, Jesus, had an earthly mother.


Hebrew 2:17, "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

 

Consider these commentary thoughts:


David Guzik -- Study Guide for Luke 1

http://www.blueletterbible.org...Luke&ar=Luk_1_46


Luke 1:34-37: Mary’s question and Gabriel’s response.

Luke 1:34-35, "Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I am a virgin?'   The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.' "

c. Because this will be the manner of His conception, He is a Holy One (different from all others), and He will be called the Son of God.


i. This doesn’t have the same impact on us today, when many people claims to be a "son of god."  But Mary (and all other Jewish people from her culture) knew what this meant: this child would be equal to God (John 5:18).

ii. Jesus did not become the Son of God; He was called the Son of God, recognizing His nature from all eternity.

 

Luke 1:39-45: Mary’s visit to Elizabeth.

Luke 1:39-45, "Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.  When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  And she cried out with a loud voice and said, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!  And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord(Jesus)would come to me?  For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.  And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.' "

a. The babe leaped in her womb: When Elizabeth saw Mary, her unborn child - John the Baptist - leaped, because he was filled with joy.  Though John wasn’t born yet, he had a spiritual awareness and could respond to the Spirit of God.

b. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!  John the Baptist had not yet been born, and Zacharias was still mute.  Yet Elizabeth believes the word of the Lord given to her husband Zacharias when he was in the temple.  In the temple, Gabriel told him that their promised son would make ready a people prepared for the Lord (Luke 1:17).  Elizabeth believed it, and believed that the baby in Mary’s womb was the Lord who Elizabeth’s son would prepare the way for (the mother of my Lord).  This faith was in Elizabeth because she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

c. Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things:  Elizabeth recognized that Mary’s faith played an active role in receiving the promise.  God's promises should never make us passive; they should prompt us to seize them by faith.  Elizabeth wanted to encourage Mary’s faith, so she declared "there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord."

 

Luke 1:46-56:  Mary’s song of praise to the Lord.

Luke 1:46-48, "And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.  For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.' "

c. My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior:  This means Mary needed a Savior, and she knew she needed a Savior.

"Mary answered the Roman Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception, which holds that from the moment of her conception (in her mother's womb) Mary was by God’s grace ‘kept free from all taint of Original Sin.’  Only sinners need a Savior." (Walter L. Liefeld)  [parenthetical comment in this quote is mine)

 

While we all recognize that Mary was a very special young woman, very Godly; and no one can doubt that she was and is truly blessed to have been chosen as the human womb through which our Lord and Savior was born -- she is in no way deity, sinless, to be worshiped, nor to be put upon any special pedestal.

Mary was a very blessed young woman who was born with the Adamic Sin Nature, like all mortals.   Yet, to the best of my knowledge, she lived a very devout life.  Like all mortal believers, when she died her body went into the grave while her spirit went into heaven, into the presence of God.   Like all mortal believers, when she died she was free of the Adamic Sin Nature curse.  And, at the Rapture of the church, she, and all believers who have died in Christ, will be resurrected into their immortal bodies.

Yet, it is very clear from Scripture that, after the birth of Christ, Mary lived a very normal married life and did not remain a perpetual virgin.  She had other children.

In Luke 8:20 we read, "And it was reported to Him, 'Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.' "

In Matthew 13:55-56 we read, "Is not this the carpenter's son?  Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and JudasAnd His sisters, are they not all with us?  Where then did this man get all these things?"

 

This, to me, clearly tells us that Jesus had brothers and sisters, born of Mary and Joseph.  The claim that these were only cousins has no validity in the Bible, at all.

In writing this, am I attacking or attempting to denigrate my many Roman Catholic Friends and family?  No.  Absolutely not. 

 

What I am saying is that for any Christian doctrine, teaching, or theology to be valid -- it MUST have full agreement with Scripture, and it MUST be supported 100% by Scripture.  If a teaching, doctrine, or theology cannot be 100% supported by Scripture -- it should be changed to bring it into agreement with God's Written Word, the Bible.

So, to my Roman Catholic Friend who initiated this dialogue with, "Bill Gray, it IS part of your 'BIG 66.'   Was Elizabeth confused?  Was St. Luke confused?  How do you read this and still deny Mary as the mother of our Lord?"

I have to answer, "I agree!  Mary most definitely was the 'mother of our Lord'."  But, she was NOT and could never be the "Mother of God."  I pray that I have explained sufficiently why that is impossible, and not Biblical.

By the way, her reference to my "Big 66" comes from our disagreement over adding the Apocrypha books to the 66 books of the Bible.  My contention, along with all Christians except those found in the Roman Catholic church, is that there are only 66 canonized books in the Christian Bible. 

 

The Apocrypha and other writings, i.e., catechisms, commentaries, and all other man-written explorations, speculations, and histories -- while useful in our Biblical studies -- are not considered part of the Holy Spirit inspired, Holy Spirit inerrant, literal Written Word of God.  Therefore, they are NOT Scripture and should hold no concrete foundational position in determining our Christian doctrines, teachings, beliefs, or our Christian theology.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

Luke 1_46-47 - Roadtrip 2012 at 17 Mile Drive - 2- Kyna Lacanienta

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Crusty it's funny, when its something that he has to twist to try to reconcile, it is a long and convoluted post. But when something he wants to hang his hat on, it's a straight "The bible says it and I believe it!!" Crazy.

Hi Vic,

 

Going with what you have written -- God is not God, for God died.   Now, you and I both know that God cannot die, for He is preexisting and eternal.  God is not a created being -- so, He cannot be born and He cannot die.  If He could be born or could die, He would not be God.

 

However, the human nature of Jesus, which was fully Man, was born through the womb of Mary --  and did die!

 

So, are you telling us that God can die, so therefore is not God?  Or, are you telling us that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

The Son of God was not born and did not die.

 

The human nature of Jesus was born and did die.

 

So, was Mary the Mother of God, meaning He was born and cannot be God?

 

Or, was Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus, who was born and did die?

 

What say you, my Friend?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,l

 

Bill

John 1:30 " I and My Father are one.” Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His ... He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ' Show us the Father'?” The bible is quite clear that the father and the son are one. There is no distinction between the "human nature". Jesus is fully human and fully divine. If you have seen Me, you've seen my Father. Nuff said.

Hi VP,

 

I will have to ask you the same questions I asked Vic:   Can God die?

 

From what I asked Vic:

 

Going with what you have written -- God is not God, for God died.   Now, you and I both know that God cannot die, for He is preexisting and eternal.  God is not a created being -- so, He cannot be born and He cannot die.  If He could be born or could die, He would not be God.

 

However, the human nature of Jesus, which was fully Man, was born through the womb of Mary --  and did die!

 

So, are you telling us that God can die, so therefore is not God?  Or, are you telling us that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

The Son of God was not born and did not die.

 

The human nature of Jesus was born and did die.

 

So, was Mary the Mother of God, meaning He was born and cannot be God?

 

Or, was Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus, who was born and did die?

 

What say you, my Friend?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Going with what you have written -- God is not God, for God died.   Now, you and I both know that God cannot die, for He is preexisting and eternal.  God is not a created being -- so, He cannot be born and He cannot die.  If He could be born or could die, He would not be God.

 

However, the human nature of Jesus, which was fully Man, was born through the womb of Mary --  and did die!

 

So, are you telling us that God can die, so therefore is not God?  Or, are you telling us that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

The Son of God was not born and did not die.

 

The human nature of Jesus was born and did die.

 

So, was Mary the Mother of God, meaning He was born and cannot be God?

 

Or, was Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus, who was born and did die?

 

What say you, my Friend?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,l

 

Bill

____________________

Jibber jabber.

If you choose to make a separation between the Father and the Son, that's your perogative. But you are incorrect. The concept of the trinity is indeed complex. But the one thing that the Bible tells us is that THe Son and the Father are ONE GOD. Both equally God. So yes, the Son of God was crucified and died- and raised up on the third day. Mary, Mother of God, suffered watching Him on the cross. Your heretical and erroneous statements that Jesus is NOT fully God are understandable given the complexity of the Trinity.i suggest you study the trinity in more detail. Start with this and ponder "If you see Me, you've seen the Father". I pray this will lead you to a better understanding of the Holy Trinity.
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Jibber jabber.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

That is, beyond all doubt, the most intelligent post you have made in a very long time.  Keep up the good work!

 

Bless your little old heart!

 

Bill

 

_________________

I wish I could find any intelligence in any of your posts. 

 

Bless your tiny little heart.

Hi VP,

 

You tell me, "If you choose to make a separation between the Father and the Son, that's your perogative.  But you are incorrect.  The concept of the trinity is indeed complex.  But the one thing that the Bible tells us is that THe Son and the Father are ONE GOD.  Both equally God. So yes, the Son of God was crucified and died- and raised up on the third day."

 

True, we have one God; but, He is manifested in three totally distinct Persons:  Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  Each are equal, each shares all the attributes of the other, each is God -- but, they are separate and distinct.

 

When Christ says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" -- He means that He and the Father are one in essence; but, they are two separate, distinct Persons of the Godhead.

 

God the Father did not die.   God the Son did not die.  Jesus, the human nature of God the Son, died on the cross.  He was born of a woman, He suffered, and He died -- that He might be like His brethren in all things (Hebrews 2:17).

 

Mary was the mother of the Lord, the human nature of Jesus Christ.   He died and she died.   God the Son did not die -- for God cannot die.  If He could die -- He would NOT be God; for God is eternal, preexisting.   There is no way that God can die -- just as God cannot be born -- for He is preexisting from eternity to eternity.  Therefore, since He cannot be born -- He CANNOT have a mother.  So simple even a caveman could understand it.  Wonder why a Roman Catholic cannot?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

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Sorry bill but I will stick with the bible on this one. Not your convoluted attempt to discredit the words of God. U could do some reading to better understand- I'm sure there is lots of good information out there- or you could talk to your pastor. Good luck!
Amazed that you can say "Mary is the mother of our Lord" But NOT "Mary is the mother of God". I really am questioning what kind of teaching you are trying to accomplish with the statement that God is not the same as Lord. Seriously....
quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
Amazed that you can say "Mary is the mother of our Lord" But NOT "Mary is the mother of God". I really am questioning what kind of teaching you are trying to accomplish with the statement that God is not the same as Lord. Seriously....

Hi VP,

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

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Originally Posted by vplee123:
So simple! God and Jesus are ONE GOD. As written in the Bible. Fellow catholic friends, is there any way to make this more crystal clear?

There's no need to be any more clear, some people can't see clear, they
are too far detached and clear isn't given to them.

 

quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
So simple!  God and Jesus are ONE GOD.  As written in the Bible.  Fellow catholic friends, is there any way to make this more crystal clear?

But, VP, my Friend,

 

You are dancing around the questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

If you cannot answer the questions, I will understand.   But, if you are afraid to answer the questions -- that is another story.  Which is it, my Friend -- CANNOT or AFRAID?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

It's neither- I've answered them- repeatedly. God and the Som are ONE God If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father I am afraid of nothing, as I am certain of my faith. Why don't you read the Creed perhaps that will help you understand. There is no separation between the trinity. One God.

Just one more thing to show me none of us can know for sure what the Bible means, or if it's even true. Some of you chose to believe it, but I'm one that refuses to blindly believe in something. I’ve always believed the Bible to be full of contradictions. This discussion just goes to show one of the many contradictions that's in the Bible.

 

This is two of many scriptures that refer to a difference between God & Son.

John 17:3 mentions TWO individuals. Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as "the only true God".

In Mark 13:32, Jesus said no one would know when God will come, not the angels or the Son, but only the Father. If the Father & the Son are one, how could the Son not know of things the Father knows?

 

BUT…..according to these two scriptures, they are ONE & the same.

Matthew 1:23 - Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Notice it says ALL power.

 

BUT......when Jesus was about to die, He showed subjection to his "Father" when praying. Who was Jesus praying to? Himself, or God? When He said: “Let, not my will, but yours take place,” was He talking to Himself or God? And then, at his death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Was He crying out to Himself or to his Father who was supposedly in Heaven?

 

After Jesus died, who resurrected him, after being in the tomb for three days? Since he was supposed to be dead, could He resurrect himself? If Jesus could resurrect Lazarus from the dead, could He not resurrect Himself from the dead?

I could go on & on, but you get the idea. If that's not contradiction, then I don’t know what is.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

So Jesus isn't God the Son?

Hi Crusty,

 

DID GOD DIE?   If so, how can He be God, how can He be eternal?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

____________________

So, Jesus isn't God.  Who was he then?

 

Oh, wait, I get it now.  The Holy Trinity as you see it is God, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible. 

quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
It's neither- I've answered them- repeatedly.  God and the Som are ONE God If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father I am afraid of nothing, as I am certain of my faith.  Why don't you read the Creed perhaps that will help you understand.   There is no separation between the trinity. One God.

Hi VP,

 

Still dancing!   But, now I can see why -- you study the "Creed" instead of the Bible, God's Word!

 

So, with you it is always -- what does the Vatican say, not what does the Bible say?   Okay, whatever rings your chimes.

 

Since you cannot directly answer the question and insist upon dancing, we will just move on.

 

But, before we do -- since I know we have one God, manifested (revealed) in three distinct Persons -- I will try once again to see if you are wearing Vatican blinders:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

If you cannot answer the questions, I will understand.   But, if you are afraid to answer the questions -- that is another story.  Which is it, my Friend -- CANNOT or AFRAID?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

TRINITY-1

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One final thing- you do not know me. I read my BIBLE daily. It tells me that God and Jesus are ONE. Because I suggested you could expound your comprehension by studying the creed, you declare that I now to the Vatican? Couldn't be further from the truth. I worship ONE GOD- and pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If that doesn't make me a good enough Christian according to your standards, so be it. But do not play diversion tactics and games with me. Yes, Mary is the Mother of our Lord. Mary is the Mother of God. If you choose not to accept that, no skin off my nose. But I have shown you where it IS biblical, and leave it at that. You are not doing the work of The Lord demanding people comply with your rules or they must be "dancing". Some of us simply do not care to play your twisted mind games. I know what I know to be true, as revealed by the Holy Spirit, as written in the word of God, an nothing you can say will minimize or negate my faith.

vplee, Billy dislikes you, he's going to say anything he can to discredit you. The ole fool is so jealous of you that he is blinded by the fact that most of us doesn't believe anything he says. Your Christianity shows, his does not, & that, my friend, he cannot stand. You would be better off putting him on block.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

vplee, Billy dislikes you, he's going to say anything he can to discredit you. The ole fool is so jealous of you that he is blinded by the fact that most of us doesn't believe anything he says. Your Christianity shows, his does not, & that, my friend, he cannot stand. You would be better off putting him on block.

----------------------------------

Not only does Billie boy dislike Veep because her Christianity shows and his not... That fact is compounded by the fact that Veep is of the female persuasion! Billie could never bring himself to acknowledge that a female could be even equal to, let alone superior to, him or any male...

In his mind, American females have arrogantly broken the bonds of subservitude. As he recently acknowledged, his interests lay in the hands of men (so to speak)...

LOL

 

quote:   Originally Posted by vplee123:
Complete and utter heresy.

Hi VP,

 

Please explain how this graphic, shown below, is heresy.

 

And, while you are at it, you might want to address these questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

Or, will you just dance faster and faster -- hoping the questions will go away?  My Friend, when the Truth confronts you -- it will not go away, nor can it be hidden under a fancy Vatican robe.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

TRINITY

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This over simplified graphic does nothing to explain the nature of the Holy Trinity. You are trying to simplify something which cannot be done. Jesus is FULLY GOD an FULLY human. Pray about it. But you will never convince me that Jesus and God are not the same. I am quite frankly shocked that you differentiate between "Lord" and "God". There, in that statement lies your heresy.
And again, I am fully clothed in the Truth of our Lord. You do not intimidate me, nor bring forth anything for me to dance around. But I will not give credence to over simplified renditions of the mysterious and complex Trinity. If that is what you need to do to deny Mary as the mother of God, so be it. But as for me, I will go with the Bible.
quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
This over simplified graphic does nothing to explain the nature of the Holy Trinity. You are trying to simplify something which cannot be done. Jesus is FULLY GOD an FULLY human. Pray about it. But you will never convince me that Jesus and God are not the same.  I am quite frankly shocked that you differentiate between "Lord" and "God."   There, in that statement lies your heresy.

Hi VP,

 

I agree with you that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man.  However, only the Man nature was born and died; so only the man Nature can have a mother.

 

While I agree that man cannot fully explain the Trinity; we do our best.  If you have a better way of explaining the Trinity than the graphics I presented -- please do share that with all of us.

 

But, that said, you tell me you are not dancing around the issue -- but, you are certainly digging a very deep hole to avoid answering these very simple questions.  Either you believe what is written or you disagree with what is written.  So, how difficult is it to choose one or the other -- and tell us why?

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

TAKE YOUR PICK.  WHICH FITS BEST FOR YOU?

OR, DO YOU HAVE A BETTER WAY TO ILLUSTRATE THE TRINITY?

 

Trinity - Color

TRINITY

 

TRINITY_1b_Outline

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quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
This over simplified graphic does nothing to explain the nature of the Holy Trinity. You are trying to simplify something which cannot be done. Jesus is FULLY GOD an FULLY human. Pray about it. But you will never convince me that Jesus and God are not the same.  I am quite frankly shocked that you differentiate between "Lord" and "God."  There, in that statement lies your heresy.
Hi VP,

 

Possibly, all your catechism classes have you confused.  Maybe this will help:

 

Question: "What do LORD, GOD, Lord, God, etc., stand for in the Bible? Why are they used in place of God's name?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/LORD-GOD-Lord-God.html

Answer:  
When "LORD" in all caps or small caps occurs in the Old Testament, it is a replacement for an occurrence of God's Hebrew name "YHWH," also known as the Tetragrammaton.  This is fairly consistent throughout all the different English translations of the Bible.  When "Lord" occurs in the Old Testament, referring to God, it is usually a rendering of "Adonai," a name/title of God that emphasizes His lordship.  LORD/YHWH and Lord/Adonai are by far the two most consistent renderings throughout all the different English Bible translations.

In the Old Testament, when "God" is used, it is usually a rendering of the general Hebrew word for God, "Elohim."  When "LORD GOD" or "Lord GOD" occurs, it is usually a rendering of a dual name for God "Adonai YHWH."  The Hebrew term "YHWH Sabaoth" is usually rendered "Lord of Hosts." The Hebrew term "YHWH Shaddai" is usually rendered "LORD Almighty."  The Old Testament uses many different names and titles to refer to God, to emphasize certain aspects of His person and attributes.  This can result in confusion in translation, but in the original Hebrew, it was done entirely in an effort to glorify and magnify God's name.

The usage of "Lord" and "God" in the New Testament is much less complicated.  Almost universally, "God" is a translation of "theos," the general Greek word for deity.   Also almost universally, "Lord" is a translation of "kurios," the general Greek word for a master. The key point in all of this is that whether we use His actual Hebrew name, or refer to Him as God, or Lord, or Lord God, we are to always show reverence to Him and His name.
 
So, while Mary is the mother of our Lord Jesus, the human nature who was born of woman and died to offer salvation to all mankind -- GOD was never born and has never died.  So, having never been born -- how could GOD have a Mother?
 
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
 
Bill
quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

Actually Jesus isn't so much a human as he is a Divine Being.

Hi Vic,

 

We read in the Bible:

 

Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren (all Christian believers)in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

 

So, Jesus Christ, while fully God, was also fully Man.  In His man nature, He was like all believers -- except that He (and He alone) was sinless.  Being like all believers, He was born of a woman, and He died on the cross.

 

His human nature, Lord, being like us, could be born and die.  GOD cannot be born and God cannot die.   So, Jesus our Lord had a mortal mother, Mary.  GOD, being eternal and preexisting -- DOES NOT HAVE A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:  Originally Posted by vplee123:
For the final time, God has a mother because JESUS CHRIST has a mother.  God and Jesus are one.  (If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father) I'm not digging a hole, I stand by my statements.

So, VP, my Friend,

 

Since you are so certain, it should be simple for you to answer my questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I do not claim to know the complex nature of the trinity. I suppose that will be on my list should I ever be Blessed to be in His presence.however I do know is that God and the Son are ONE. What I do know? Is that I will not be bullied with your repetitive questions that have no answer. Yes, God was pre-existing. But he was also BORN into the human world. If and when you get to Heaven, you let us know, ok? Because the Trinity is a mystery of faith. That's your problem- you have to label and compartmentalise everything. You can't do that, as it is impossible for us to understand the many mysteries of God.

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