Do we really support out Troops? This might say alot you didn't know.

That makes absolutely no sense. Serving in the military doesn't entitle you to be housed for the rest of your life. Is the U.S. Is the U.S. military responsible for every screw up who ever put on a uniform?

Out of the 200,000 estimated veterans who are homeless how many were kicked out of their homes by the army? How many decided on the lifestyle because it fit in with their lack of ambition or drinking?

quote:

Originally posted by Ubermensch:
That makes absolutely no sense. Serving in the military doesn't entitle you to be housed for the rest of your life. Is the U.S. Is the U.S. military responsible for every screw up who ever put on a uniform?

Out of the 200,000 estimated veterans who are homeless how many were kicked out of their homes by the army? How many decided on the lifestyle because it fit in with their lack of ambition or drinking?

Why do you folks from the far right twist the words to the way you think? I don't think you know what you are talking about.I don't think you know anything about Serving in the military. you and your friends were cutting me down yesterday for posting about the soldier's mistreating a dog,now you are cutting me down for posting that our troops are not supported when they come home. Can't have it both ways!

My wife and I have sent packages to our family members who has served in the Middle East. Tell me pba, what have you done to support the troops?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
My wife and I have sent packages to our family members who has served in the Middle East. Tell me pba, what have you done to support the troops?

Well keep it up,I'am sure those cookies taste good and the water is clean that you send.But think about the kids over their that have to watch THEM eat it and wish they had some. You ask what I have done,Well,I also send goodies to family and friends that are in Iraq.

As the entire homeless population is about 500,000 this is suspect.

Several years ago, a sample of Vietnam homeslees veterans showed 70 percent had never served, 20 percent served, but not in nam, and only 10 percnt were nam vets.

quote:

Originally posted by interventor:
As the entire homeless population is about 500,000 this is suspect.

Several years ago, a sample of Vietnam homeslees veterans showed 70 percent had never served, 20 percent served, but not in nam, and only 10 percnt were nam vets.

Interesting to say the least.
10% of what number of troops?

How many did we have to get killed in Viet-Nam? how many injured?

How many say they are fighting in Iraq that is not?
What is the number of Injured troops in Iraq thus far?

quote:

Originally posted by interventor:
As the entire homeless population is about 500,000 this is suspect.

Several years ago, a sample of Vietnam homeslees veterans showed 70 percent had never served, 20 percent served, but not in nam, and only 10 percnt were nam vets.

interventor, I cannot speak for pba, but when I say Homeless Vietnam Vets, I MEAN HOMELESS VIETNAM VETS. Not homeless men who could have been Vietnam vets by their age, or homeless men who served during the Vietnam war but not in Vietnam.
There seems to be a common thread in the debate here. Many of the supporters of the WAR were never in service. (carefully avoiding the issue of supporting troops) They seem to be as ignorant of military conditions as my cousin claims to be. My Cousin went off to Korea, and claims that he just turned his brain off till he was discharged, and CLAIMS he cannot recall a thing from the time he said "so help me god" at the recruiting center till they handed him his speration papers in San Francisco. Afterwards he became a famous French Horn Player. That kind of denial is hard to come by. But about two point seven out of two point eight war supporters seem capable of nearly the same feat.

It is very interesting that 30% of the homeless were veterans of one sort or another. Consider this, to join up, or be drafted you have to meet certain qualifications. Physical Fitness, Reasonable IQ scores, good health etc are mandatory.
Military service does change people, apparently for the worse in some cases.
*edit to correct spelling*

ONE MORE THING. You have to be Sane to get in the ARMY..you have to be insane to want to stay.

quote:

Originally posted by EdEKit:
ONE MORE THING. You have to be Sane to get in the ARMY..you have to be insane to want to stay.

Have YOU ever been in the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, or Marine Corps?

If not, sit down, shut up, and thank a vet for your freedom....

Yes, BrenTenMan is back......

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:

quote:

Originally posted by EdEKit:
ONE MORE THING. You have to be Sane to get in the ARMY..you have to be insane to want to stay.

Have YOU ever been in the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, or Marine Corps?

If not, sit down, shut up, and thank a vet for your freedom....

Yes, BrenTenMan is back......

Yes I have been in the armed forces, and I am proud of what I did. Even the resignation of a competitive appointment to West Point in 1962.

you have to be sane to get into the army. YOU HAVE TO BE INSANE TO WANT TO STAY. Long Live corporal KLINGER.

brentenman, IF YOU DON'T FEEL IT NOW YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FEEL THE ABSOLUTE INSINCERITY OF THE QUOTE, Thank a Vet for your freedom.

I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

welcome back brentenman.

I will opine on this. The way this country has and does treat vets, especially disabled vets, is beyond shameful. I am thinking of those vets that had their records "lost" or there is some kind of arguement as to how they became injured. I know one Vietnam Vet that cannot walk unaided and is still having shrapnel removed from being on top of an antipersonel mine when it went off. He is 35% disabled. He lives on social security.

We owe him and all the others that served more than we could hope to repay. We can at least make sure we don't leave them in the cold.

Yes, our country has not been up to speed in certain areas when it comes to VA support and the like.....

I think it will get worse, as the older vets die, and less and less people decide to "pick up a musket," and join the military. Those that have never served will not and cannot understand what goes on in the military first hand, and eventually, some services will be cut off.

yeah...it is shameful.

quote:

Originally posted by Shiroshi:
welcome back brentenman.

I will opine on this. The way this country has and does treat vets, especially disabled vets, is beyond shameful. I am thinking of those vets that had their records "lost" or there is some kind of arguement as to how they became injured. I know one Vietnam Vet that cannot walk unaided and is still having shrapnel removed from being on top of an antipersonel mine when it went off. He is 35% disabled. He lives on social security.

We owe him and all the others that served more than we could hope to repay. We can at least make sure we don't leave them in the cold.

What you owe to veterans is the same respect you owe to your friends and family. You personally owe the ideals of the Armed Forces more than a little respect, you owe those ideals your loyalty. As to the individual Veterans. THERE ARE SOME WHO DON'T HAVE THE RESPECT OF THEIR COMRADS IN ARMS.

quote:

Originally posted by EdEKit:

quote:

Originally posted by Shiroshi:
welcome back brentenman.

I will opine on this. The way this country has and does treat vets, especially disabled vets, is beyond shameful. I am thinking of those vets that had their records "lost" or there is some kind of arguement as to how they became injured. I know one Vietnam Vet that cannot walk unaided and is still having shrapnel removed from being on top of an antipersonel mine when it went off. He is 35% disabled. He lives on social security.

We owe him and all the others that served more than we could hope to repay. We can at least make sure we don't leave them in the cold.

What you owe to veterans is the same respect you owe to your friends and family. You personally owe the ideals of the Armed Forces more than a little respect, you owe those ideals your loyalty. As to the individual Veterans. THERE ARE SOME WHO DON'T HAVE THE RESPECT OF THEIR COMRADS IN ARMS.

I didn't say "personally owe" I said "we owe" as in we this country. Especially the Vietnam vets, many of whom were forced to go. The way our veterans are treated by the buracracies that we created to "take care" of our veterans, are slow, ineffective, and treat them like cattle. Out of all the "abused" groups in this country, you hear about our vets the least. They have been blamed for the political situation of the wars they have fought in, forgotten by politicians and the public, and have gotten what at most times would be sub-par health care(whatever is the cheapest solution).

Far too often Americans think of our Vets like we do antibiotics, never a thought til they are needed. Remembering and respecting the troops and vets is a lot more than waving a flag and barbecue.

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:
Have YOU ever been in the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, or Marine Corps?

If not, sit down, shut up, and thank a vet for your freedom....

___________________________________________

I've never been in any branch of the military. On the other hand, my dad is a vet and my grandfather was on the front lines in Germany in WW II. I've had close relatives in every war since the Civil War. I can only speak to what they taught me. My dad taught me to stand up for what I believe in, no matter what. My grandfather, in his last year, told me that I should "speak up" about what I believe in, as it's my right.

Therefore, I shall not "sit down, shut up" as you suggest. I'll follow their advice instead.

quote:

Originally posted by e:

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:
Have YOU ever been in the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, or Marine Corps?

If not, sit down, shut up, and thank a vet for your freedom....

___________________________________________

I've never been in any branch of the military. On the other hand, my dad is a vet and my grandfather was on the front lines in Germany in WW II. I've had close relatives in every war since the Civil War. I can only speak to what they taught me. My dad taught me to stand up for what I believe in, no matter what. My grandfather, in his last year, told me that I should "speak up" about what I believe in, as it's my right.

Therefore, I shall not "sit down, shut up" as you suggest. I'll follow their advice instead.

yes, it is good to follow their advice. However, for those that have never served, they can't possibly know how it REALLY is to serve, whether it be in peacetime or wartime. Military life is VERY different from civilian life. They are, in effect, two different worlds. Hearing WW2 stories from your uncle is one thing, actually walking in the jungle, desert, Arctic, Korea, Germany, Japan, etc. and in some cases getting shot at, is a totally different thing.

Brentenman Read this. It is not about war, it is not about taxes, it is about Media reform. JUST READ IT, DON'T TALK TILL YOU HAVE. http://www.freepress.net/news/20357

quote:

Originally posted by EdEKit:
Brentenman Read this. It is not about war, it is not about taxes, it is about Media reform. JUST READ IT, DON'T TALK TILL YOU HAVE. http://www.freepress.net/news/20357

I scanned some of it.....gotta hit the hay...Will have reply later, and some first hand knowledge about some in the NATIONAL media I have personally met and talked (not interviewed) with face to face. Examples: CNN, ABC, PBS...

quote:

Originally posted by Ubermensch:
That makes absolutely no sense. Serving in the military doesn't entitle you to be housed for the rest of your life. Is the U.S. Is the U.S. military responsible for every screw up who ever put on a uniform?

Out of the 200,000 estimated veterans who are homeless how many were kicked out of their homes by the army? How many decided on the lifestyle because it fit in with their lack of ambition or drinking?

TRUE comment... but what I am wondering is what does supporting our TROOPS, who are at war right now, have to do with our Vetrans who are no longer in the Military? We supported them while they were 'in', and we respect them for their service, but it still doesn't have anything to do with our Current Troops!

I thank God for what ALL the Vetrans did for our Country, freedom is what they gave us...

But still, that has nothing to do with the support of the Troops now serving in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:

quote:

Originally posted by e:

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:
Have YOU ever been in the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, or Marine Corps?

If not, sit down, shut up, and thank a vet for your freedom....

___________________________________________

I've never been in any branch of the military. On the other hand, my dad is a vet and my grandfather was on the front lines in Germany in WW II. I've had close relatives in every war since the Civil War. I can only speak to what they taught me. My dad taught me to stand up for what I believe in, no matter what. My grandfather, in his last year, told me that I should "speak up" about what I believe in, as it's my right.

Therefore, I shall not "sit down, shut up" as you suggest. I'll follow their advice instead.

yes, it is good to follow their advice. However, for those that have never served, they can't possibly know how it REALLY is to serve, whether it be in peacetime or wartime. Military life is VERY different from civilian life. They are, in effect, two different worlds. Hearing WW2 stories from your uncle is one thing, actually walking in the jungle, desert, Arctic, Korea, Germany, Japan, etc. and in some cases getting shot at, is a totally different thing.

I was a Military Wife for a lot of years, but that does NOT mean I know about what the Military does... I know a little, I know what I have been told because my entire male family was in the Military, ... I am definitely NOT an authority on what they are even TRAINED to do during war time... I shudder to even think it... But being a realist, It is happening, and I support the Troops, no matter what, with ALL my heart!!!

I Pray to God that He takes care of mauiboy!!!

Yes, KS, others...I understand what and where you are coming from.

However, what I am trying to get across is that until you have seen the elephant, actually been there, done that, it is a different thing, and you come back changed, for life. We are who we are based upon experiences, good and bad, in life.

I compare it to this analogy, and I know women know more about it than I do:

Women know about birthing and babies. If you never have done it before, then you can't possibly know what it is like. Same as being a parent. I knew nothing, until my wife got pregnant, and 20+ months later, I know more now about kiddies than I did prior to my daughter's birth.

That is the analogy I am trying to get across.....with no offense to anyone.

quote:

I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

Ed, I find this hard to believe. Can you honestly say that you've done more for American liberty than a soldier that died fighting in the American Civil War?

What are some things you've done on behalf of Amercian Liberty?

quote:

Originally posted by Alphonse:

quote:

I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

Ed, I find this hard to believe. Can you honestly say that you've done more for American liberty than a soldier that died fighting in the American Civil War?

What are some things you've done on behalf of Amercian Liberty?

I beg to differ with Ed, too. Unless, he's just being egotistical.


"The independence and liberty you possess are the work of . . . joint efforts, of common dangers, suffering and successes." George Washington

Starting with the declaration of Independance Signees who, IMO, have done more.

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr. noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. They were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more.

Standing tall, straight, and unwavering they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government. Some of us have taken these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.

Remember: Freedom is never free!

Colonel (Dr) Jim Hayes, USAF ret

source

quote:

Originally posted by Brentenman:
Yes, KS, others...I understand what and where you are coming from.

However, what I am trying to get across is that until you have seen the elephant, actually been there, done that, it is a different thing, and you come back changed, for life. We are who we are based upon experiences, good and bad, in life.

I compare it to this analogy, and I know women know more about it than I do:

Women know about birthing and babies. If you never have done it before, then you can't possibly know what it is like. Same as being a parent. I knew nothing, until my wife got pregnant, and 20+ months later, I know more now about kiddies than I did prior to my daughter's birth.

That is the analogy I am trying to get across.....with no offense to anyone.

No offense taken .. Which is why I said I was a Military Wife, but still didn't know anything much more than Base Housing, Commisary and BAQ, ... There is no way for us to know, and I just wish the Media would leave it alone too, ... War should NOT be shown on the news hourly... maybe updates, but that is all...

General Public just knows what they see the Media put out... which most of the time is a VERY wrong picture.

quote:

Originally posted by just saying:

quote:

Originally posted by Alphonse:

quote:

I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

Ed, I find this hard to believe. Can you honestly say that you've done more for American liberty than a soldier that died fighting in the American Civil War?

What are some things you've done on behalf of Amercian Liberty?

I beg to differ with Ed, too. Unless, he's just being egotistical.


"The independence and liberty you possess are the work of . . . joint efforts, of common dangers, suffering and successes." George Washington

Starting with the declaration of Independance Signees who, IMO, have done more.

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr. noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. They were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more.

Standing tall, straight, and unwavering they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government. Some of us have taken these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.

Remember: Freedom is never free!

Colonel (Dr) Jim Hayes, USAF ret

source

Yeah... BUT!!! Do you actually KNOW what Ed has done for our country??? Do you have any idea what he sacraficed??? Do you know what capacity he held??? Just MAYBE, he HAS done exactly what he said he has done... There is no one that can say he hasn't.

Until one knows ones ENTIRE life and experiences, especially in war, one cannot comprehend exactly the magnitude someone may have been in....

Just a point to ponder...

How many soldier's salaries would be equivalent to ONE professional athlete’s?

quote:

Originally posted by FatNoMo:
How many soldier's salaries would be equivalent to ONE professional athlete’s?

Wow Fatnomo!!! THAT should be a topic in and of itself!!! Make a post!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
Yeah... BUT!!! Do you actually KNOW what Ed has done for our country??? Do you have any idea what he sacraficed??? Do you know what capacity he held??? Just MAYBE, he HAS done exactly what he said he has done... There is no one that can say he hasn't.

Until one knows ones ENTIRE life and experiences, especially in war, one cannot comprehend exactly the magnitude someone may have been in....

Just a point to ponder...

As far as his experiences especially in war, he stated he "did more as a civilian", so you can't ponder that. There are those who can say he hasn't done exactly as he said and those are the ones who personally know him. They can form their own opinion based on the opinion he gave.

As far as fact goes, which is what I was debating in my previou post, then yes. There are those who have done more than he has for American Liberties. Especially some 231 years ago, yes there have been plenty who have done more.

This is what he stated: I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
Yeah... BUT!!! Do you actually KNOW what Ed has done for our country??? Do you have any idea what he sacraficed??? Do you know what capacity he held??? Just MAYBE, he HAS done exactly what he said he has done... There is no one that can say he hasn't.

Until one knows ones ENTIRE life and experiences, especially in war, one cannot comprehend exactly the magnitude someone may have been in....

Just a point to ponder...[/color][/b]

I don't know what he has done, that's why I asked for examples. I said I find it hard to believe, that doesn't mean it's impossible. I try not to point fingers too quickly, I can't stand it when people do that to me.

quote:

Originally posted by just saying:

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
Yeah... BUT!!! Do you actually KNOW what Ed has done for our country??? Do you have any idea what he sacraficed??? Do you know what capacity he held??? Just MAYBE, he HAS done exactly what he said he has done... There is no one that can say he hasn't.

Until one knows ones ENTIRE life and experiences, especially in war, one cannot comprehend exactly the magnitude someone may have been in....

Just a point to ponder...

As far as his experiences especially in war, he stated he "did more as a civilian", so you can't ponder that. There are those who can say he hasn't done exactly as he said and those are the ones who personally know him. They can form their own opinion based on the opinion he gave.

As far as fact goes, which is what I was debating in my previou post, then yes. There are those who have done more than he has for American Liberties. Especially some 231 years ago, yes there have been plenty who have done more.

This is what he stated: I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.

I have known several Civilian Employees WORKING on Military bases in Top Secret jobs... how do we know that he wasn't one of those?

As my Grandfather used to say "son you won't know 'til you find out".

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I have known several Civilian Employees WORKING on Military bases in Top Secret jobs... how do we know that he wasn't one of those?

Me too. One of my family members, civilian by the way, splits his time between the Pentagon and Redstone Arsenal. But that is beside the point!

Has Ed done more for American liberty than, say, George Washington? Seriously, do you believe that? Are you taking his statement as an opinion or a fact? He said he did more than "any soldier". I'm thinking there are lots of soldiers who did way more than you or I can fathom. Now that's my opinion and probably can be proved fact when Ed states why he feels he's done more. The fact is that George Washington, who was appointed commander-in-chief in June 1775, did more for American Liberties than Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by just saying:

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I have known several Civilian Employees WORKING on Military bases in Top Secret jobs... how do we know that he wasn't one of those?

Me too. One of my family members, civilian by the way, splits his time between the Pentagon and Redstone Arsenal. But that is beside the point!

Has Ed done more for American liberty than, say, George Washington? Seriously, do you believe that? Are you taking his statement as an opinion or a fact? He said he did more than "any soldier". I'm thinking there are lots of soldiers who did way more than you or I can fathom. Now that's my opinion and probably can be proved fact when Ed states why he feels he's done more. The fact is that George Washington, who was appointed commander-in-chief in June 1775, did more for American Liberties than Ed.

I just like believing people when they make a statement, because there have been too many times in my long life that I didn't belive someone about something, and had egg on my face, lol

I didn't think we were talking all the way back to George Washington, but if that is the case, then why not the Pilgrims or the Native Americans... they didn't have to contend with Bush, hehe...

Like I said, I just want to take what people say and believe it UNTIL it is proven wrong, then it would take a LONG time before trusting them with things like that again... if that makes sense

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I just like believing people when they make a statement, because there have been too many times in my long life that I didn't belive someone about something, and had egg on my face, lol

I didn't think we were talking all the way back to George Washington, but if that is the case, then why not the Pilgrims or the Native Americans... they didn't have to contend with Bush, hehe...

Like I said, I just want to take what people say and believe it UNTIL it is proven wrong, then it would take a LONG time before trusting them with things like that again... if that makes sense

Yeah, you're right about wanting to believe people. I'm gullible that way, sometimes too much.

Why I referenced George Washington was because he said "since the Revolutionary War." Would have been better if I referenced Arlington National Cemetery. Those who sacrificed their life for liberty, there is absolutely no argument that they've done more for liberty than anyone living today, civilian or military.

"The independence and liberty you possess are the work of . . . joint efforts, of common dangers, suffering and successes." George Washington.

Right as Rain George. Without the contributions of the farmer, the printer the newspaperman and the delivery driver the Liberty of the American People would mean only the freedome to scratch a living out of the cold hard earth.

Not only did I contribute more to the liberty and welfare of the nation by driving a Produce truck than by standing guard in Germany, so did every other American Worker.

THE AMERICAN WORKING PEOPLE ARE WHAT MAKE THIS NATION FREE AND STRONG. AMERICAN ARMED FORCES DEFEND THAT LIBERTY BUT THE PEOPLE MAINTAIN AND DEFEND IT.

The men who signed the Declaration of Independence were signing a document that began with the words, "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." The signers did a lot, AND THEY DID IT FOR THE PEOPLE, but it was the people they commited to the war of independence. Tom Paine did more than Tom Jefferson to win the liberty of these united states, AND JEFFERSON SAID SO. Tom Paine's pen was mightier than the BRITISH NAVY, because his pen united and encouraged the PEOPLE TO DEFEND THEIR LIBERTY.

On this arguement I defend the statement, I have done more as a civilian than I ever did as a soldier to defend american liberty." And I will say to you that the same is true of you. I DID NOT SACRIFICE AS MUCH AS ANY SOLDIER WOUNDED OR KILLED IN BATTLE.

In the early days of the nation, we had a War Department. It was renamed the Department of Defense in 1947. The reason it was renamed was this: The Government recognized that Hitler could not have come to power had he faced any nations prepared to DEFEND THEMSELVES.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld know the law of the bully, "don't attack the strong, attack the weak to intimidate the other weak." So, the nation they picked was Iraq. After 12 years of international arms embargo, and constant bombing and harassment by the No Fly Zone Pilots, and the destruction of their military equipment in the Gulf War, and the long war with Iran, Hussain was weak, regardless of his Posture of Strength. They used his posture to justify invading. They depended on his known weakness for victory. THEY INVADED THE WEAKEST NATION IN THE REGION.

I will say this again, I have done more as a Civilian for the welfare and freedom of Americans than I DID AS A SOLDIER.

I will ADD THIS, SO DID YOU, OR SO WILL YOU.

I devoted my whole life to assuring the liberty of this country by insisting that my elected representatives did nothing to take that liberty from me. 22 years of providing factual unbiased information, objective truth to the people of my community, and years of hard labor restoring farmland that had been ruined by flooding, and then more years delivering food, medicine, furniture and toilets to those same people is quite a contribution. I have a brother in law who spent four years in the Navy, after service, he became an insurance agent, and is now the owner of an insurance brokerage. HIS WORK THERE IS DOING MORE FOR AMERICANS THAN HIS JOB AS THE BOSUNS MATE ON THE ADMIRAL'S BARGE.

Each of you is contributing to the freedom and welfare of this nation. Soldiers are standing as the wall seperating us from those who would take that freedom from us. They would be unnecessary if YOU WERE NOT WORTH PROTECTING.

There is a difference between Contribution and Sacrifice. I refer to the parable of the Widow's Mite.

quote:

Originally posted by EdEKit:
I will say this again, I have done more as a Civilian for the welfare and freedom of Americans than I DID AS A SOLDIER.

I cannot debate this because it's your feelings and only you can be right about your feelings. I see your point completely, though, this new statement you are making "I will say this again, I have done more as a Civilian for the welfare and freedom of Americans than I DID AS A SOLDIER." There are great things that you've listed that you done/supported. I can't say that much for myself. I'm 32 and a mother of three, by the way. You have done a lot of admirable things and lots of hard labor. What I read in your previous post that you stated was "I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE MORE ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN LIBERTY AS A CIVILIAN THAT ANY SOLDIER HAS DONE SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR." That's a different statement than "I have done more as a civilian than I ever did as a soldier to defend american liberty." Which to the latter, you are right about the reference to the Widow's Mite.

"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." -- Thomas Jefferson - (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President Source: in a letter to John Adams as quoted in John A. Stormer, None Dare Call it Treason (Florissant, MO: Liberty Bell Press, 1964) 93.

Right, just saying I saw an undefensible position by using the reference to ANY SOLDIER SINCE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR. First off, I was out of line claiming a greater contribution than Dwight Eisenhower or Jonn F Kennedy. I have to assume that since those two extreme examples of service to the Republic exist, there must be thousands of others. I did change the statement. I saw the error you so eloquently pointed out, and took the position that since you were right, and I was wrong, I needed to change the premise.
I had embraced to large a group for proper comparison. Or, pride attempted to put me in the family of truely distinguished Veterans of Military service.

I am chagrined by my own excess, but I will stand by the statement that My Miliary service, and the service of millions of others is overshadowed by our contributions as a member of the larger society. I will include NON VETERANS IN OUR GROUP AS WELL.

The point is, the military, when defending our liberty is rarely firing a shot. Liberty needs a strong Shield. It rarely needs a powerful response to threats against it.

At the moment, and throughout the history of this nation, the conflict between liberty and oppression is being fought, not on battlefileds but on picket lines and in mass demonstrations, and in Union Halls, and Conference rooms. On the one side are those who exploit the Laborer for their enrichment, and on the other side the working people who seek equitable rewards for their labor. IT HAS BEEN EVER SO.

Ed, so according to your earlier post about delivering unbiased information, is this by the way the same unbiased information CNN, NY Times, FoxNews, and other media distributes to the public in each's biased manner. Nothing on your posts would make anyone think you are anything but a liberal and a socialist. I don't think freedom and liberty can coexist with socialism.

Also, the majority of Americans and people in the Shoals area work just as hard as you have done but they do not feel the need to boast about themselves or claim they are better then anyone else.